Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast
Excellent ideas Robert. On 11/25/2022 2:33 PM, Robert Johnston via EV wrote: Okay, I've been looking into/thinking about this for a bit, and I see several ways this could be handled. ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast
ke the rig to its final route. > > Part of the idea, here, is to reduce rolling resistance. The second part > is to travel in "trains" so that the wind resistance is also reduced. > > This idea is riddled with logistics problems and also liability issues. > Is it worth thinking about ? Can clever people figure out a way to make > it work ? > > Oh, and I'm assuming these would be EV tractors. Clearly, on steel > rails, the battery size would be greatly reduced. > > Peri > > << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >> > > -- Original Message -- > From: "Lawrence Winiarski via EV" > To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" > Cc: "Lawrence Winiarski" > Sent: 25-Nov-22 03:41:50 > Subject: Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast > > >I know this will sound like sacrilege on EVDL, but does it really make > sense to have battery powered Semitrailer trucks?Isn't it kind of > carryingthings a little too far? > > > >On a practical note, a lot of electricity is met on the grid with natural > gas generators for demand as they can be spun up and down fairly easily > toaccount for variable production and demand. > > > > Wouldn't it make more sense to just power the truck itself on Natural > Gas and skip the power lines/grid/demand/chargestations...etc > >It would also save on 10-20,000 lbs of batteries. not require big > investments, much faster "recharge", and believe it or not, diesels can bet > easily > >retrofitted to use Natural Gas. (They just aspirate the air intake with > nat gas and still use a small amount of diesel for the "spark". > It'sbeen done in other countries, but for some reason it's just ignored > here in the US. > > > >I was very interested in Natural Gas powered vehicles at one time. > Largely ignored in the US. > >There are a lot of good reasons (environmentally and economical) to > consider them. > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, November 24, 2022, 2:48:27 PM PST, Matthew Pitts via EV > wrote: > > > > So you foresee a time in the US where the railroads handle the bulk of > the > >cross-country shipping like they used to? Because that's pretty much the > >only way I can see EV semi trucks not being used for over the road > >operation. And if full day rate charging is cheaper than the cost of a > tank > >of fuel (currently $5+ per Imperial Gallon in the US), I suspect most any > >shipping company would be fine with it. > >Matthew Pitts > >Get BlueMail <https://bluemail.me> for Desktop > >Bill Dube via EV wrote: > >Fast charging during the day will be expensive for trucks and thus be > >unpopular. > >The fast charger operator will take a cut, and the grid operator will > >charge peak rates for electricity. > >Passenger EV's don't typically use fast chargers, they charge at more > >reasonable speeds and rates at home. You want to take a trip, then you are > >willing to pay extra to fast charge on the road. Fast charging is like > >eating in a restaurant. Most folks see it as a waste of money on a daily > >basis and eat at home for far less money. > >Economics will shape the industry and will determine how and when trucks > >will charge. Unlike passenger cars, trucks are very price sensitive and > >will opt for the least expensive option. The available surplus grid > >capacity will set the price of electricity, and the trucking industry will > >find the most economical electricity price. > >EV trucks will seldom be recharged on route at high electricity costs with > >the driver being paid to wait. It is not economic as the trucking company > >will lose money and it simply will not be done. (Or be done rarely.) EV > >trucks will no doubt be used for runs that are within their battery range. > >Bill D. > >-- next part -- > >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >URL: < > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221124/b3b78fcd/attachment.htm > > > >___ > >Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > >No other addresses in TO and CC fields > >HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > > > > > >-- next part -- > >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >URL: < > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221125/6b49a935/attachment.htm > > > >___ > >Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > >No other addresses in TO and CC fields > >HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > > > > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > > -- Robert "Anaerin" Johnston -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221125/eb65cab0/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast
IMHO, battery power for long haul trucking is a piss poor application. Local delivery, sure, but not long haul. Electric trains would be a FAR better method for long haul transportation. You could have two separate train tracks. One for priority goods and passengers, and one for less time critical transportation. The second option can be set up to only move the trains where there is a surplus of power from renewable sources, etc. Not that I really expect this to happen, but it seems like a much better solution to me. My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key November 24, 2022 12:17 AM, "Peri Hartman via EV" wrote: > Bill, I don't have any axe to grind here, but the issue was about providing > power to charge long > haul trucks. While I think your argument works well for small trucks and > domestic cars, I'd like to > see what you have to say about long haul trucks. I highly respect your points > of view. > > Peri > > << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org >> > > -- Original Message -- > From: "Bill Dube via EV" > To: ev@lists.evdl.org > Cc: "Bill Dube" > Sent: 23-Nov-22 14:55:48 > Subject: Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast > >> No need upgrade the grid. None. Just need a few incentives and a little >> intelligence. >> >> There is a lot of misinformation about this, here on the EVDL even. >> >> Grid capacity problem ? >>> >> >> There is LOTS of power available on the grid, just not at the peak times of >> the day. No problem >> what-so-ever. EVs are _driven_ during the day, and are charged when they are >> parked, during the >> night. Provide an economic incentive to folks to change off peak and the >> grid capacity "problem" >> vanishes. >> >> Solar power is during the day, while you are at work. How do you charge from >> solar? >> >> It is a power grid. You put power in at one location, and you can take it >> out at another. This is >> what it does. Use it. >> >> If your home solar panels are providing surplus power to the grid, you can >> draw it out from a >> location other than your home to charge your EV. It is simply a matter of >> giving the grid operator >> incentive to take a reasonable fee for doing this. Legislation, financial >> incentive, public >> sentiment, etc. No brainer. >> >> EV power is no different than washers, driers, stoves, electric heat, etc. >> << >> >> The grid has gone through decades of constant evolution. It has very nicely >> adapted and upgraded >> with the advent of air conditioning, electric heat, and power hungry home >> appliances. >> >> As EVs slowly ramp up in popularity, the grid operators will adapt. EVs and >> EV chargers can easily >> be quickly switched off and back on to "park shave" during periods of peak >> load. The grid operators >> simply have to decide on which of the many methods they want to use to talk >> to your EV or your >> charger, and offer you an incentive to participate. >> >> Bill D. >> >> ___ >> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org >> No other addresses in TO and CC fields >> HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help > > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast
dustry and will determine how and when trucks >will charge. Unlike passenger cars, trucks are very price sensitive and >will opt for the least expensive option. The available surplus grid >capacity will set the price of electricity, and the trucking industry will >find the most economical electricity price. >EV trucks will seldom be recharged on route at high electricity costs with >the driver being paid to wait. It is not economic as the trucking company >will lose money and it simply will not be done. (Or be done rarely.) EV >trucks will no doubt be used for runs that are within their battery range. >Bill D. >-- next part -- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: ><http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221124/b3b78fcd/attachment.htm> >___ >Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org >No other addresses in TO and CC fields >HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > > >-- next part -- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: ><http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221125/6b49a935/attachment.htm> >___ >Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org >No other addresses in TO and CC fields >HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221125/00307edc/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast
conomic as the trucking company will lose money and it simply will not be done. (Or be done rarely.) EV trucks will no doubt be used for runs that are within their battery range. Bill D. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221124/b3b78fcd/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221125/6b49a935/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast
I know this will sound like sacrilege on EVDL, but does it really make sense to have battery powered Semitrailer trucks? Isn't it kind of carryingthings a little too far? On a practical note, a lot of electricity is met on the grid with natural gas generators for demand as they can be spun up and down fairly easily toaccount for variable production and demand. Wouldn't it make more sense to just power the truck itself on Natural Gas and skip the power lines/grid/demand/chargestations...etc It would also save on 10-20,000 lbs of batteries. not require big investments, much faster "recharge", and believe it or not, diesels can bet easily retrofitted to use Natural Gas. (They just aspirate the air intake with nat gas and still use a small amount of diesel for the "spark". It'sbeen done in other countries, but for some reason it's just ignored here in the US. I was very interested in Natural Gas powered vehicles at one time. Largely ignored in the US. There are a lot of good reasons (environmentally and economical) to consider them. On Thursday, November 24, 2022, 2:48:27 PM PST, Matthew Pitts via EV wrote: So you foresee a time in the US where the railroads handle the bulk of the cross-country shipping like they used to? Because that's pretty much the only way I can see EV semi trucks not being used for over the road operation. And if full day rate charging is cheaper than the cost of a tank of fuel (currently $5+ per Imperial Gallon in the US), I suspect most any shipping company would be fine with it. Matthew Pitts Get BlueMail <https://bluemail.me> for Desktop Bill Dube via EV wrote: Fast charging during the day will be expensive for trucks and thus be unpopular. The fast charger operator will take a cut, and the grid operator will charge peak rates for electricity. Passenger EV's don't typically use fast chargers, they charge at more reasonable speeds and rates at home. You want to take a trip, then you are willing to pay extra to fast charge on the road. Fast charging is like eating in a restaurant. Most folks see it as a waste of money on a daily basis and eat at home for far less money. Economics will shape the industry and will determine how and when trucks will charge. Unlike passenger cars, trucks are very price sensitive and will opt for the least expensive option. The available surplus grid capacity will set the price of electricity, and the trucking industry will find the most economical electricity price. EV trucks will seldom be recharged on route at high electricity costs with the driver being paid to wait. It is not economic as the trucking company will lose money and it simply will not be done. (Or be done rarely.) EV trucks will no doubt be used for runs that are within their battery range. Bill D. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221124/b3b78fcd/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221125/6b49a935/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
