Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 19 Dec 2022 at 1:51, paul dove via EV wrote:

> you should stop with I actually never met Elon. 

Now hold on just a minute here.  Bill didn't say that.  

Please reread his message to refresh your memory of what he really said.

I don't speak for Bill, but maybe he'll elaborate on what "I have it on good 
authority" means.  Or not; perhaps he won't think that he owes you, or us, 
any further elaboration.

It seems to me that entirely apart from personal relationships, public 
statements and public actions of public figures are fair game for we the 
public to make certain judgments about said figures.  

Musk has certainly given the public plenty of both, especially in the last 
couple of months.  

In my opinion, which may not be worth much, what he's revealed about himself 
doesn't suggest a bright future for Tesla under his leadership.  That's 
something that any EV follower should be concerned about.

Or perhaps, as his cult members sometimes suggest, he's just playing n-
dimensional chess.  Perhaps via some magic incantation, that management 
style will work better for him than it has for, say, Vladimir Putin.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[paul dove via EV]

It’s a fact that people believe evil and pass it on much faster than anything 
good. So, you should stop with I actually never met Elon. 


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, December 18, 2022, 5:32 PM, Bill Dube via EV  
wrote:

You haven't actually met Elon, have you.

I have it on good authority that Elon is a very very difficult man to 
work for. This may be why he is so successful, perhaps.

What I read in the news lately about Elon seems completely in character 
for him. I don't doubt anything I have read so far in the least.

Bill D.

On 12/19/2022 5:40 AM, paul dove via EV wrote:
> Alleged mis-behavior
>
> Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 18 Dec 2022 at 13:34, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

> I think this is an example of the logical fallacies that permeate our 
> society today.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I see nothing fallacious in such a 
decision.  Rational purchasing decisions take many factors into account.

> Musk may be a jerk; but he still deserves credit for accomplished great
> things. 

I'll give him credit for lining up Tesla's financing, which I don't think 
Gage and Eberhard could have done.  He also did a fair bit to dispel EVs' 
undeserved "golf-car-and-forklift" image.

But that was well over a decade ago.  IMO, in recent years, Tesla has 
succeeded more in spite of Musk than because of him. 

Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies.  

You're mission driven for EVs, and I suspect Tesla's engineers are too, but 
that takes you only so far when the boss treats you like trash.

Tesla also can't have a living and thriving business without customers.

A year ago, only those of us who followed EVs pretty closely knew about 
Musk's employee abuse, his company's poor safety record, and his violations 
of California and EU environmental and labor laws.  

Now his Twitter dumpster fire is all over the news, and everybody knows 
about at least his callous attitude toward his employees.  No surprise, 
recent surveys show Tesla's "brand image" sliding into the negative.

www.teslarati.com/tesla-approval-rating-negative-territory-survey/

With that, and rapidly rising prices, Tesla's vehicle sales are down.  

If Musk could stay off Twitter, they might eventually recover.  But unlike 
more emotionally mature CEOs, I don't think he has the impulse control to do 
that.

Tesla's stock price is down too, off over 60 percent from its peak, with 
much of that decline arriving after he took over Twitter.

https://bipartisanreport.com/2022/12/14/tesla-stock-value-suffers-steep-
decline-amidst-musk-antics/

or https://v.gd/aQjxy1

Musk could depress the stock further if he sells more of it to prop up his 
personal megaphone, Twitter.

A Tesla may be a fine EV, but it's not 2013.  Today there are many more good 
EV choices, especially in Europe.

With all due respect, I don't think that it's at all irrational to buy a non-
Tesla EV to avoid putting any more money into Musk's already-stuffed 
pockets. 

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 18 Dec 2022 at 16:40, paul dove via EV wrote:

> Alleged mis-behavior 

Musk is something of a cult figure, and a cult figure's followers will 
always find ways to excuse or minimize their leader's anti-social and/or 
inhumane behavior.   

It's not a crime to be an gaping a-hole, so no "alleged" is needed for that.

But Musk does appear to be already violating many laws, including labor and 
environmental laws in California and the EU.  At least one of his 
advertising proposals for Twitter will unquestionably break EU privacy laws.

Of course I can only say "appear to be" and "allegedly" - until he's 
convicted.  But for goodness sake, he's totally open about what he's doing, 
not even trying to hide it.   

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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Even when it shines, it looks like rain. 

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Jay Summet via EV]

On 12/18/22 14:34, Lee Hart via EV wrote:




My wife is one of those who refuse to consider a Tesla vehicle based
upon his (miss) behavior...


I think this is an example of the logical fallacies that permeate our 
society today. 
Basically, it's an "Ad hominem" (to the man) argument (attacking the 
man, rather than what he has produced). Musk may be a jerk; but he still 
deserves credit for accomplished great things.


Both my wife and I acknowledge that the Tesla vehicles are technically 
excellent (which is not always the same as reliable), but she is "voting 
with her pocketbook" to not support the company/CEO on ideological grounds.


Some of that is she detests Elon Musk personally, and some of that is 
using his past behavior as a gauge of how the company may (or may not) 
support out of warranty owners in the future.


Jay
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[paul dove via EV]

 Have to?  I am sure they did the math. 
On Saturday, December 17, 2022 at 10:18:27 AM CST, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
 wrote:  
 
  Too little too late.  Now Tesla is going to have to add the clunky CCS
connectors to its network at considerable expense.
I use a Tesla tap. Tesla has a CHAdeMO adapter.  Tesla could just require an 
adapter,  purchased at user expense, to access Superchargers.  Shoudn't cost 
more than $250. Lawrence Rhodes 
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Bill Dube via EV]

You haven't actually met Elon, have you.

I have it on good authority that Elon is a very very difficult man to 
work for. This may be why he is so successful, perhaps.


What I read in the news lately about Elon seems completely in character 
for him. I don't doubt anything I have read so far in the least.


Bill D.

On 12/19/2022 5:40 AM, paul dove via EV wrote:

Alleged mis-behavior

Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone




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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Robert Johnston via EV]

I, for one, applaud Elon Musk's business savvy - He came in at the right
time to purchase PayPal, Tesla and SpaceX, and those companies managed to
insulate themselves from him with layers of middle management so his bad
ideas didn't cause too many problems for them.

Elon didn't make Tesla, after all. He wasn't a founder of the company, and
he isn't responsible for anything more than standing on stage, accepting
applause and over-promising on ideas. Autopilot, CyberTruck and the new
Roadster, for example.

On Sun, 18 Dec 2022 at 13:35, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> >> Yes, hate for Musk seems to dominate. Here and elsewhere. Despite his
> >> obvious skills and MANY successes...
>
> > My wife is one of those who refuse to consider a Tesla vehicle based
> > upon his (miss) behavior...
>
> I think this is an example of the logical fallacies that permeate our
> society today. Carl Sagan neatly summarized such fallacies in his book
> "The Demon Haunted World"
> <
> https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/fomps/carl_sagans_list_of_logical_fallacies/
> >
>
> Basically, it's an "Ad hominem" (to the man) argument (attacking the
> man, rather than what he has produced). Musk may be a jerk; but he still
> deserves credit for accomplished great things.
>
> If we disregarded the accomplishments of every flawed individual, we'd
> have ignored the work of Thomas Jefferson (slave owner), Henry Ford
> (anti-semite and Nazi sympathizer), Steve Jobs (arrogant bully), etc.
>
> Lee Hart
>
> --
> "Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, you'll be a
> mile away and have his shoes."
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> www.avast.com
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>

-- 
Robert "Anaerin" Johnston
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Steves via EV]

Many highly gifted people are flawed (well aren’t we all?). We do need to 
balance their contributions against their faults. 

Consumer choice is an excellent method of ‘voting’ to encourage productive 
behavior and discouraging harmful behavior. I am turned off from buying a Tesla 
due to the way he treats his employees. 

-Steve

> On Dec 18, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
>> 
>>> Yes, hate for Musk seems to dominate. Here and elsewhere. Despite his
>>> obvious skills and MANY successes...
> 
>> My wife is one of those who refuse to consider a Tesla vehicle based
>> upon his (miss) behavior...
> 
> I think this is an example of the logical fallacies that permeate our society 
> today. Carl Sagan neatly summarized such fallacies in his book "The Demon 
> Haunted World" 
> 
> 
> Basically, it's an "Ad hominem" (to the man) argument (attacking the man, 
> rather than what he has produced). Musk may be a jerk; but he still deserves 
> credit for accomplished great things.
> 
> If we disregarded the accomplishments of every flawed individual, we'd have 
> ignored the work of Thomas Jefferson (slave owner), Henry Ford (anti-semite 
> and Nazi sympathizer), Steve Jobs (arrogant bully), etc.
> 
> Lee Hart
> 
> -- 
> "Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, you'll be a mile 
> away and have his shoes."
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
> 
> -- 
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> www.avast.com
> ___
> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> 

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Lee Hart via EV]

Yes, hate for Musk seems to dominate. Here and elsewhere. Despite his
obvious skills and MANY successes...



My wife is one of those who refuse to consider a Tesla vehicle based
upon his (miss) behavior...


I think this is an example of the logical fallacies that permeate our 
society today. Carl Sagan neatly summarized such fallacies in his book 
"The Demon Haunted World" 



Basically, it's an "Ad hominem" (to the man) argument (attacking the 
man, rather than what he has produced). Musk may be a jerk; but he still 
deserves credit for accomplished great things.


If we disregarded the accomplishments of every flawed individual, we'd 
have ignored the work of Thomas Jefferson (slave owner), Henry Ford 
(anti-semite and Nazi sympathizer), Steve Jobs (arrogant bully), etc.


Lee Hart

--
"Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, you'll be a 
mile away and have his shoes."

--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[paul dove via EV]

Alleged mis-behavior 

Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, December 18, 2022, 9:08 AM, Jay Summet via EV  
wrote:



On 12/17/22 11:21, Willie McKemie via EV wrote:
> Yes, hate for Musk seems to dominate. Here and elsewhere. Despite his
> obvious skills and MANY successes. I am confused.

I think it's partially because he appears to be an asshole who creates a 
toxic work environment.

I respect the technical successes SpaceX / Tesla have achieved, but I 
certainly wouldn't want to be working at Twitter right now.  A smart 
(female) computer scientist I advised did an internship at SpaceX and 
also cited culture issues there.

My wife is one of those who refuse to consider a Tesla vehicle based 
upon his (miss) behavior.

Jay

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Jay Summet via EV]

On 12/17/22 11:21, Willie McKemie via EV wrote:

Yes, hate for Musk seems to dominate. Here and elsewhere. Despite his
obvious skills and MANY successes. I am confused.


I think it's partially because he appears to be an asshole who creates a 
toxic work environment.


I respect the technical successes SpaceX / Tesla have achieved, but I 
certainly wouldn't want to be working at Twitter right now.  A smart 
(female) computer scientist I advised did an internship at SpaceX and 
also cited culture issues there.


My wife is one of those who refuse to consider a Tesla vehicle based 
upon his (miss) behavior.


Jay

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