Re: [EVDL] Shorted FB1-4001A DC motor?

[Ben Apollonio via EV]

I'm pretty sure terminal resistance is supposed to be 0.03 ohms so a normal 
ohmmeter won't tell you much...  How about spin the motor in neutral with a 
(fused) 12V battery?  Any signs of arcing on the commutator?

-Ben

On Dec 27, 2016, at 1:13 PM, Jay Summet via EV  wrote:

> Today my HV fuse blew, and after testing my controller, I believe the problem 
> is that my 9"  FB1-4001A DC motor is shorted.  The motor leads are measuring 
> at 0.1 ohm right now.
> 
> Anybody have suggestions as to anything to look at/for before I start the 
> process of removing the motor?
> 
> I may also be in the market for a new/used FB1-4001A depending upon how 
> things go
> 
> Jay
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Re: [EVDL] $52M/yr 'Quiet (Electrified) cars' alert-sound rules by 2019/09

[Ben Apollonio via EV]

Amen, Lee.  If quiet cars are truly the problem, the requirement should be 
universal.  Singling out EV's certainly has the appearance - even if not the 
intent - of hostility and intentionally limiting their appeal.  I tend to 
believe the current action is merely a case of narrow-mindedness, but one could 
easily see it abused for anti-competitive ends by the powerful and politically 
connected.  Such tactics are commonplace in business.

I used to be vehemently opposed to EV noise regulations - I can't stand noise 
pollution!  However, the sound my wife's Prius V makes is much less obtrusive 
than I feared and serves as a good model for how this can be done well.  In 
fact, I didn't even realize for several weeks that it wasn't just normal 
fan/inverter operating noise, even though I'd owned an earlier-gen Prius.  
Still not as pleasant as my own silent EVs, but definitely something I can live 
with, especially if it saves lives.

-Ben

On Nov 15, 2016, at 12:56 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>> While there are obvious virtues to have EVs emit sounds, and I will not
>> oppose the effort, what can we do to ensure the sounds are quiet enough
>> and pleasant?
> 
> It's always seemed to me that my EVs make plenty of noise (tires, wind, 
> transmission and differential gear noises, motor whine, controller whistles, 
> etc.) without having to add any explicit noisemakers. They're about the same 
> as most new ICEs. Some luxury ICEs are even quieter.
> 
>> Now, I don't expect the rulings to call for something that obnoxious.
>> But still, without some pushback, we may increase the amount of noise
>> from our current levels. That would be bad, in my opinion.
> 
> If we're going to set some new standard, I think it should apply to *all* 
> vehicles, ICE as well as EV. That will prevent EV-haters from legislating 
> obnoxious standard *on purpose* to discourage EVs. It would also put the 
> general public on our side, as they don't want their ICEs to be deliberately 
> made noisy or obnoxious.
> 
> -- 
> It is the responsibility of every American to be informed. Those who expect 
> to be both ignorant and free, expect what never was and never will be. -- 
> Thomas Jefferson
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Where 20 amp receptacles are required

[Ben Apollonio via EV]

On Jan 20, 2016, at 11:13 AM, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:
> If you are planning on plugging in an EV daily into a 120 volt outlet, you 
> would likely want to eventually change it out for a "hospital grade" type 
> receptacle. These are really designed to take constant, daily, disconnection 
> and reconnection use and are constructed of _far_ better materials than a 
> standard receptacle. They cost at least 5 times as much as a standard 
> receptacle, of course.

I second that!!  Although the availability of "hospital grade" outlets is news 
to me, I have overheated/burnt/melted too many 120V outlets trying to charge my 
EV at just 12A.  I use a heavy duty 12AWG cord too.  I have found that the more 
industrial-looking plugs at your hardware store tend to fit tighter into the 
outlets and have fewer overheating problems.

I'm actually seriously considering adding some sort of temperature sensor to 
the plug.  I think Tesla did this in response to their melted connectors issue.

-Ben

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: This Is The GM-200mi EV Before You Are Supposed To See It (v)

[Ben Apollonio via EV]

Indeed - the Bolt display appears to me to indicate how the energy has been 
spent in an almost pie chart (pink, purple, green).  The pink icon (arrow) 
suggests driving energy, the purple icon (snowflake) suggests climate control 
and the green (battery) I guess might be 12V.  If my reading is correct, 
roughly 50% of the energy went to climate -- not unexpected when you're giving 
tours to reporters.

-Ben

On Jan 8, 2016, at 12:08 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
wrote:

> On 7 Jan 2016 at 17:31, Willie2 via EV wrote:
> 
>> I commented that such high consumption was not unusual early in a trip
>> in cold weather with a cold battery.  The Bolt display clearly
>> indicated only the first part of a trip, ~10 miles. 3) I cited some
>> Tesla numbers, in cold weather with a cold battery, that approached the
>> Bolt numbers. 4) From there, discussion went on to warming batteries on
>> shore power thus circumventing that high initial energy consumption
>> from the battery. 
> 
> Ah, that explains where it came from.  Sorry, I should have read your note 
> more carefully.  Thanks for clarifying, and my further apologies if I 
> sounded (read) a tad cranky there.
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Charging Profile: Charge to 80% capacity (quickly)

[Ben Apollonio via EV]

Hi Jay,

I think your approach is good.  Some chargers (Elcon, at least) let your BMS 
throttle charge current with an external voltage signal.  If your charger 
supports this, you could try wiring up a comparator and a flip-flop to latch 
the signal at 0A when you hit your target voltage at 30A.

Cheers
-Ben

On Jan 3, 2016, at 9:28 PM, Jay Summet via EV  wrote:

> I want to charge at maximum current to 80%, and then shut off. My thoughts on 
> this subject are listed as text below, or you can follow this link to see the 
> images of my charging profiles:
> 
> http://www.summet.com/blog/2016/01/03/default-charging-profile-charge-to-80-capacity-quickly/
> 
> I welcome any comments about issues or tricks I may have overlooked.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jay
> 
> 
> 
> Because I have a relatively short commute, and rarely anticipate needing my 
> full 100% pack capacity, I have chosen to charge my truck to an 80% SOC on a 
> daily basis to maximize battery life. One nice thing about the 80% level is 
> that most batteries can be charged at a relatively high rate of speed up to 
> 80%, and then you need to slow down the charging a bit to prevent them from 
> overheating. (This is why DC Quick Chargers will quickly bring an empty 
> battery up to 80%, but then slow down quite a bit after that.)
> 
> My first attempt at programming an 80% charging profile was very simple, just 
> set  MaxV to 128.5 and set the TermC (termination current) to 2 amps. This 
> works well, it gets the pack voltage up to 128.5 volts and holds it there 
> until the battery stops accepting much current. The only issue is that it is 
> wasting time, because for a good amount of the charging period the current 
> flowing into the battery is less than the maximum 30 amps (4.0 kW) that the 
> chargers can produce. The charging curve looks like this:
> 
> http://www.summet.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/charging_2amp_cutoff.png
> 
> 
> 
> In an effort to speed up my charging, I set the MaxV to a higher amount ( 
> 128.9 volts) so that at the 128 volt level the battery pack would still be 
> accepting a higher current, and then set my TermC to the highest level my 
> EVCC allows (10 amps). This results in a charging curve that looks like the 
> following:
> 
> http://www.summet.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/charging_10amp_cutoff.png
> 
> 
> As you can see, I spend more time delivering 30 amps before the current draw 
> from the pack starts to drop off, and the curve reaches the cutoff point much 
> quicker. My EVCC currently limits the TermC parameter to 10 amps or less, 
> probably because they have not anticipated somebody trying to charge only to 
> 80% as quickly as possible.
> 
> If I could set the TermC parameter to 20 or 25 amps it would allow me to set 
> the MaxV up higher (131?). The goal would be to find a voltage setting such 
> that the pack would be drawing 20 or 25 amps right when it hit the 128.5 volt 
> level. So my curve would basically be flat, full on charging at 30 amps up 
> until the very end when it would start to taper off and the charging would 
> end at 25 or 20 amps.
> I’m not worried about setting the MaxV higher than the actual voltage I’m 
> attempting to hit, as it is still much lower than my pack’s actual max 
> voltage, and if something were to change with the pack chemistry making it 
> miss the TermC cutoff, the MaxV would still stop the pack from reaching 100% 
> charged. (and the termination timeout would eventually hit.)
> 
> This is the end of my main thought, but you can continue reading for…..
> 
> Extra Info about my pack, charging to the 80% level, etc…
> 
> The 48 modules from my Nissan Leaf battery pack (LMO/LNO chemistry)  are 
> arranged in a series of sixteen sets of 3 parallel cells. This gives me a 
> 180Ah battery with an absolute maximum voltage of 134.4 (4.2 volts per cell). 
> In actual use the 4.2 VPC level should never be reached, if you charge the 
> cells to 4.1 volts per cell they are around 99% charged. As the extra 0.1 
> volt difference between 4.1 and 4.2 doesn’t really buy you much extra 
> capacity,  most people use 4.1 volts per cell (131.2 volts) as a safe “full” 
> or 100% capacity on the Leaf Cells.  My Mini-BMS units will start to shunt 
> voltage at 4.1 VPC, and raise an over-voltage alarm at 4.2 VPC.
> 
> However, if you charge the cells to 4.0-4.01 VPC (128-128.5 volts) that 
> corresponds to about 80% of their maximum possible capacity. To maximize cell 
> and battery pack life, you want to minimize the time the cells are fully 
> charged or fully discharged. If you can keep the cells between a 10%-80% 
> state of charge (SOC) it will maximize their battery life.
> 
> Keeping them above 10% SOC is easy…don’t drive until they are empty. Keeping 
> them at or below 80% SOC is also easy, simply turn off your charger when they 
> are only 80% charged.   This is why the early Nissan Leafs had the option to 
> only charge the battery to 80%. (Removed in 

Re: [EVDL] [SPAM?] Ten states impose flat EV fees, Georgia is highest

[Ben Apollonio via EV]

I agree we should incentivize low-pollution vehicles, but this is is actually a 
punitive road use fee.  Georgia's gas tax is $.075/gallon.  If you drive 16k 
miles/year (US average) at 22MPG (rough average accounting for older cars), 
you're paying about $55 toward road maintenance.  The $300 EV fee is 5.5x as 
high - you'd have to drive almost 90k miles/year for the fee to be fair.

Georgia also ended their $5k tax credit for buying EV's.  So they get 
historical credit for extremely generous incentives, but unfortunately one of 
our political parties has since decided that action to limit climate change and 
pollution is a sin, even when it's committed voluntarily by individuals.

-Ben

On Dec 6, 2015, at 7:37 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:

> I say again, I am not opposed to a road use fee added to EV's AS LONG AS
> THE SAME amount is applied to all ICE cars as a fee for their use of the
> air we breath.  Yes, EV' are getting a free ride on the gas tax, but ICE's
> are getting a free ride on the environment and THAT HAS TO STOP!
> 
> Bob, WB4APR
> 
> 
> On Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 1:45 PM, Mike Nickerson via EV 
> wrote:
> 
>> The Idaho charges aren't QUITE as bad as they look ($100 hybrid and $150
>> EV).  Due to a shortfall in road maintenance revenue, they passed a law
>> this year charging an additional levy when vehicle license is renewed.
>> Normal vehicles also get an extra tax, but less than above.  I believe the
>> non hybrid vehicle fee is about $40.
>> 
>> Mike
>> 
>> 
>> On December 6, 2015 1:59:57 AM MST, brucedp5 via EV 
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>> http://www.autoblog.com/2015/12/01/ten-states-impose-ev-flat-fees-georgia-highest/
>>> Ten states impose EV flat fees; Georgia is highest
>>> Dec 1st 2015  Danny King
>>> 
>>> [image
>>> 
>> http://o.aolcdn.com/dims-shared/dims3/GLOB/legacy_thumbnail/800x450/format/jpg/quality/85/http://hss-prod.hss.aol.com/hss/storage/midas/a61247bb248c07ecbd3ff545ce8ea090/203057143/41e7831c9fda4726ac9a33fa2f9a3666.jpeg
>>> ]
>>> 
>>> Washington, Colorado, Virginia And Oregon Also On Growing List
>>> 
>>> Plug-in vehicle advocates will certainly have Georgia on their mind
>>> after
>>> reviewing a US Department of Energy list of the ten states that impose
>>> special fees for plug-in vehicles. These fees were put into place in
>>> order
>>> to offset the revenue shortfall from more fuel efficient vehicles,
>>> electrified powertrains, and the resulting lower gas taxes. Georgia
>>> charges
>>> the highest fee out of any state in the country for plug-in vehicles.
>>> Idaho
>>> is a distant second.
>>> 
>>> 
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Re: [EVDL] article: World’s first 1 megawatt all-electric race car to compete at Pikes Peak

[Ben Apollonio via EV]

Really?  I was pretty sure the title of first megawatt all-electric race car 
went to the Maniac Mazda over a decade ago...

-Ben

On Apr 1, 2015, at 9:50 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Seems reasonably legit. Nothing about it seems unreasonable.
 
 http://driveeo.com/blog/racing/eo-pp03-one-megawatt-electric-race-car/
 
 The pp03 refers to Pike's Peak #3, and they ran it last year and the year 
 before:
 
 http://driveeo.com/pikes-peak/pp02/
 
 http://driveeo.com/pikes-peak/pp01/
 
 b
 
 On Apr 1, 2015, at 6:31 PM, Paul Wujek via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
 
 It's April 1, so maybe this is true:
 
 http://www.electricautosport.com/2015/04/worlds-first-1-megawatt-all-electric-race-car-to-compete-at-pikes-peak/
 -- 
 *Paul Wujek* p...@rogers.com about http://goo.gl/3jnMdX
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Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences

[Ben Apollonio via EV]

Lots of great info on this thread!  I was actually revisiting the literature on 
this recently myself.  Although my 914 is garaged for the winter, it happens to 
be at home this year (with its transmission in pieces), and I wanted to top off 
the battery in case we lost power in all the crazy weather we've had up here in 
the Northeast -- I figured it could probably run my fireplace insert for 
several days.  Ultimately, I decided it wasn't worth the risk.

I would avoid charging below 5 degrees C if at all possible (to account for 
measurement error, etc), and if you must charge, do so at very low rates (C/20) 
and stay away from 100% SoC.  It is really hard to find good literature on 
exactly what's tolerable for existing technology -- most seems to be examining 
novel electrolyte formulations; generally, I gather that some charge acceptance 
is possible below 0, but it's very limited, and it gets worse as the cell 
approaches full.  If you have an ICE, suck it up  burn some gas when the 
weather is this nasty.  If you must drive your EV all winter, consider battery 
heaters or a space heater in your garage.  I think the jury is out on whether 
or not lithium plating also presents a safety issue, but I for one don't want 
to take any chances.  I've heard rumors of A123's having good low-temperature 
charge performance, but I wouldn't assume that extends to CALB -- it may have 
more to do with the nanoparticles and ridiculous rate capability than the 
electrolyte or chemistry.

While we're at it, if you're even at 5 degrees, you should be limiting your 
charge rates.  Ion mobility is not a step function!  Lithium plating happens 
when you apply more charge current than the cell can accept; if the cell, or 
even a localized portion of the cell, is saturated, its voltage rises and 
lithium is deposited on the anode.  The same thing would happen even at 25C if 
your charge rate were high enough.  For what it's worth, my Tesla is extremely 
stingy about low-temperature charging; it won't apply any charge current until 
it has warmed the battery and it starts limiting charge and regen currents at 
temps as high as ~50F (10C).  Given their close relationship with Panasonic and 
the effort they've put into maximizing both battery life and usability, I have 
to imagine that if charging below freezing could be done safely they'd be doing 
it.

Maybe someone ambitious and willing to burn some cash could try some 
experiments for us.  Lithium plating leaves a discernible voltage signature in 
the cell's discharge curve, in which the voltage during the first portion of 
the curve is inflated, then falls back to normal partway through the cycle.  
Buying several CALB cells, instrumenting them with good equipment, and testing 
them for several cycles each at various temperatures/charge rates would 
probably be sufficient to determine where the threshold of plating lies; then a 
little conservative extrapolation will give us a safe operating area.  Not 
really an option for me even if I had the money, since my cells are ThunderSky 
and can't be bought anymore.  Example voltage curve 
http://jes.ecsdl.org/content/158/4/A379/F13.large.jpg  (the full article is 
paywalled but google takes you to the image).

-Ben

On Feb 23, 2015, at 1:38 PM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Christopher,
 
 This is going to be different for every anode chemistry and electrolyte
 package.  Now that reliable shorter time interval testing is possible, we
 may start to see better information like you are asking for.  I think you
 are stuck with being careful and not really knowing.  Heat your pack when
 charging below freezing - certainly, absolutely, below 0°F.  YMMV.
 
 I would guess C/10 might be OK,  based on nothing at all.
 
 Start pushing the people you buy cells from to get good testing done - or
 else you will buy from someone who does do it.  That is the only way it
 happens.
 
 Mike
 
 On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 10:15 AM, Christopher Darilek via EV 
 ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
 
 I've heard this same thing but was not clear on how low of a rate.  Does
 anyone know?  Around C/10?  Or lower?
 -ChrisChris' 1972 BMW 2002
 
 |   |
 |   |  |   |   |   |   |   |
 | Chris' 1972 BMW 2002Owner Chris Darilek Location Austin, Texas US map
 Web WebPage Vehicle 1972 BMW 2002 Motor Advanced DC Series Wound DC
 Drivetrain 9 motor, standard ... |
 |  |
 | View on evalbum.com | Preview by Yahoo |
 |  |
 |   |
 
 
 -- 
 To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
 Thomas A. Edison
 http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html
 
 A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
 *Warren Buffet*
 
 Michael E. Ross
 (919) 550-2430 Land
 (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone
 (919) 631-1451 Cell
 
 michael.e.r...@gmail.com
 michael.e.r...@gmail.com
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Re: [EVDL] Scrapping an EV

[Ben Apollonio via EV]

A lot of charities and even public radio stations accept old cars as donations. 
 Shop around to see if your car might be of value to one of them.

-Ben

On Jan 13, 2015, at 8:04 PM, Bill Dennis via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 I didn't have any takers on my Starter EV, Just Add Batteries offer.  So
 I'm just going to take out all the EV components and scrap the car.  What's
 the procedure for getting a motor-less car to a junk yard?  Do you have to
 pay them to pick up the car, or do they just come and take it off your hands
 for whatever remaining parts it may have?
 
 Thanks,
 
 Bill
 
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Re: [EVDL] 9-Inch ADC Motor Max Voltage

[Ben Apollonio via EV]

I run a 9 ADC from a 53-cell LiFePO4 pack (170V nominal); I've only put about 
5000 miles on the car, but no issues so far.  That said, I've had issues with 
rotor balance, so I tend to operate at lower RPM's, which means I'm limiting 
the DC voltage across the motor.

-Ben

On Jan 9, 2015, at 5:59 PM, Bill Dennis via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Can a 9-inch ADC motor handle being run at 178 volts nominal?  
 
 Thanks,
 
 Bill Dennis
 
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla EV downs utility pole in Paramus, NJ jamming evening traffic

[Ben Apollonio via EV]

Hi Bruce,

First, let me say that I enjoy your newswires and appreciate all the effort you 
put into the EV community.

...but I really don't think some idiot crashing a Tesla is list-worthy news.

-Ben

On Dec 3, 2014, at 4:37 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 
 
 http://cliffviewpilot.com/electric-car-downs-utility-pole-in-paramus-jamming-evening-rush/
 Electric car downs utility pole in Paramus, jamming evening rush
 December 1, 2014 | Boyd A. Loving
 
 [image  / Boyd A. Loving
 http://cliffviewpilot.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/paramusfarviewpoledown.jpg
 (EV)
 
 http://cliffviewpilot.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/paramusfarviewpoledown.jpg
 (pole, ambulance)
 ]
 
 ONLY ON CVP: Evening rush-hour traffic in the center of Paramus was slowed,
 continuing past 6:30 p.m., after a Tesla downed a utility pole.
 
 Paramus firefighters extricated the driver, who was taken to Hackensack
 University Medical Center with the assistance of a paramedic team from The
 Valley Hospital, after the 4:10 p.m. crash on Farview Avenue.
 
 Farview was closed in both directions between Midland and Haase Avenues.
 Gridlocked traffic conditions on Midland Avenue resulted.
 
 Paramus police, EMS workers, firefighters and Heavy Rescue all responded.
 
 The car, which ended up on a nearby front lawn, was removed by a flatbed tow
 truck.
 [© 2014 Cliffview Pilot]
 
 
 
 https://www.facebook.com/cliffviewpilot/posts/10152792607706355
 December 1 at 3:31pm · 
 ONLY ON CVP: Car downs utility pole in Paramus, jamming evening rush
 ONLY ON CVP: Evening rush-hour traffic in the center of Paramus was slowed
 after a sedan downed a utility pole. The driver was taken to Hackensack...
 ... Comment ...
 Gregory Antonetti Looks like a Tesla. Interesting job the rescue squad, I'm
 sure.
 2 · December 1 at 3:38pm  ...
 
 Valerie Hughes That Farview/Midland intersection is a bitch.
 December 1 at 4:17pm
 
 Richard Genberg Jr. Whole town of Paramus was a mess.
 December 1 at 4:27pm
 
 Daniel Hamlin It was a tesla and it was interesting. We had training on them
 a few months ago. Training pays off
 December 1 at 6:40pm ...
 
 
 
 [dated]
 http://cliffviewpilot.com/suv-rolls-after-hitting-utility-pole-in-paramus/
 SUV [ice] rolls after hitting utility pole in Paramus
 by: Jerry DeMarco  October 14, 2014
 ...
 http://cliffviewpilot.com/firefighters-free-driver-after-chevy-4x4-slams-into-utility-pole-in-teaneck/
 Firefighters free driver after Chevy 4x4 [ice] slams into utility pole 
 Sep 26, 2014  YOU SAW IT HERE FIRST: New Milford, River Edge, and Teaneck
 firefighters freed a 17-year-old Bergenfield driver trapped in his 4×4 ...
 ...
 http://cliffviewpilot.com/car-rams-utility-pole-in-paramus/
 [ice] Car rams utility pole in Paramus
 June 6, 2014
 ...
 http://cliffviewpilot.com/pickup-truck-takes-out-paramus-utility-pole/
 [ice] Pickup truck takes out Paramus utility pole
 Mar 13, 2014  YOU SAW IT HERE FIRST: The driver of a Ford F-350 tandem-axle
 pickup truck escaped injury late this afternoon after it barreled off
 Paramus ...
 ...
 http://cliffviewpilot.com/car-splits-utility-pole-on-route-17-in-paramus/
 [ice] Car splits utility pole on Route 17 in Paramus
 Mar 12, 2014  YOU SAW IT HERE FIRST: A female driver was transported to a
 hospital by ambulance after her Honda Accord sheared off the bottom half of
 a ...
 
 
 
 
 For EVLN posts use:
 http://evdl.org/evln/
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 {brucedp.150m.com}
 
 
 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Leaf owners – beware the gas station car wash!

[Ben Apollonio via EV]

I steer clear anyway.  They can scratch the heck out of your finish.  And 
windows.

-Ben


On Oct 13, 2014, at 3:43 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 
 
 http://scholarsandrogues.com/2014/10/06/leaf-owners-beware-the-gas-station-car-wash-renewable-journal-for-1062014/
 Leaf owners – beware the gas station car wash! – Renewable Journal for
 10/6/2014
 
 A couple months back, I gave my Leaf a bath in a gas station car wash. I
 came out of it complaining that it didn’t get all the bird poop off my
 pretty new car, but that happens sometimes – some car washes are just not
 that good. The thing that stuck with me, though, was that it was hard to get
 the car positioned right in the car wash, and even harder to get the car out
 of the wash at all.
 
 See, the car wash I was at had a metal ramp, and the coefficient of friction
 of a wet metal ramp is quite a bit lower than that of wet concrete. What
 happened was my electric motor’s torque made the front wheel drive spin out,
 and instead of rolling gracefully up the ramp, I nearly overshot the
 pressure plate that tells the automatic car wash that my car is positioned
 correctly. And when I tried to let my car settle back slightly by taking my
 foot off the brake, the car tried to go forward instead. In my unexpected
 difficulties of navigating a simple car wash I’d forgotten to put the Leaf
 in neutral.
 
 Getting out of the car wash turned out to be even more of an adventure. The
 Leaf’s ultra-low rolling resistance tires were soaking wet and covered in
 partially rinsed-off soap by then, and they wouldn’t grip the wet metal at
 all – all they wanted to do was spin in place. I had to take a lesson out of
 my snowy weather driving manual and actually rock the Leaf back and then
 forward to get enough momentum to get my front wheels out of the depression.
 Not pleasant. I had visions of having to call my wife for a careful push to
 get me out of the stupid car wash.
 
 Something to keep in mind if you’re looking to buy a Leaf – be careful in
 gas station car washes!
 [© scholarsandrogues.com]
 
 
 
 
 For EVLN posts use:
 http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html#nabble+template%2FNamlServlet.jtp%3Fmacro%3Dsearch_page%26node%3D413529%26query%3Devln%26sort%3Ddate
 
 http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1094708_electric-vehicles-in-rv-campgrounds-what-you-need-to-know
 Electric Vehicles In RV Campgrounds: What You Need To Know
 
 http://www.wfmynews2.com/story/news/local/2-wants-to-know/2014/09/29/eelctric-car-charging-stations-pti-ptia-piedmont-triad-international-airport-greensboro-2wtk-2-wants-to-know/16441077/
 4 L1 EVSE @PTI Airport NC
 +
 EVLN: Energica Ego ultra-fast.it Femme fatale e-motorcycle (video)
 
 
 {brucedp.150m.com}
 
 
 
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Re: [EVDL] 'We're developing a prototype battery powered train'...

[Ben Apollonio via EV]

I would think overhead catenary lines would actually be cheaper, and one could 
do that study without building a prototype...

On Aug 15, 2014, at 3:06 AM, Martin WINLOW via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 http://www.networkrail.co.uk/news/2013/aug/We-are-developing-a-prototype-battery-powered-train/
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Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?

[Ben Apollonio via EV]

For your hybrid application, I'd go with the AC.  One word:  regen -- without 
it to recharge the battery, hybrid mode is of little benefit; better to just 
disengage the motor altogether.

I get decent performance out of my Porsche 914 with a single 9 DC motor in 3rd 
gear (although it tops out around 65MPH).  It even starts and drives OK in 4th, 
but the clutch begins to slip.  The lower gear ratio Netgain suggests will keep 
motor speed down, making it easier to to push current when the engine is 
spinning the crankshaft at higher speeds.  However, running slow comes at the 
expense of the torque multiplication in your gearing; ultimately, you'll be 
running the motor hot in a low-efficiency region.  My Porsche performs as it 
does because I have a 170V pack and a 1000A Zilla, but each of those drives up 
the cost  complexity.  At lower voltage, I'd be much more dependent on the 
gearing to have any power at speed, and at lower currents, I'd be much more 
dependent on the gearing to provide starting torque.  And when I actually use 
2nd-4th gear, it's a lot more fun/powerful throughout.

The AC has a better torque profile for a fixed (albeit higher) gear ratio.  
However, given the rating of the motors, you'll probably need two AC-51's to 
get decent performance unless they're upstream of the transmission.

As for the hybrid mode, I would strongly encourage you to take it 
incrementally, because the controls will be a challenge and you don't want to 
be kept off the road while you figure it out.  The vacuum sounds like a good 
idea, but my gut says you'll need inputs from the throttle too.  You'll almost 
certainly require a control processor (possibly Arduino, possibly more 
powerful).  Step 1, IMO, is to make the car work with an EV mode and with an 
engine-only mode where the electric motor just spins freely.  Once you have 
that working, you can tinker with hybrid control schemes all day long.  
Frankly, I think it will be a game of diminishing returns.  Since you're using 
the existing engine instead of an undersized one that relies on the electric 
boost, and since your motor is fixed on the driveshaft (meaning you can't regen 
without also burning energy in compression braking), I think the fuel 
efficiency gains will be limited.  I would say you should think of it more like 
a Honda 
 Civic hybrid than like a Chevy Volt/Prius, except it will have the ability to 
fully disengage the engine for EV-only drive.

-Ben

On Jul 23, 2014, at 5:02 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 I know the question of AC and DC motors is a controversial one, and probably 
 done to death. But if all y'all might humor me, I'd appreciate a bit of 
 guidance on this.
 
 To recap, I have a chance to buy a 1964 1/2 Mustang in good shape for not 
 much money. The goal is to get something not unlike the driving experience of 
 a Volt, with an all-electric range of roughly a couple dozen miles and a 
 traditional Prius-style hybrid range limited only by the gas tank. The 
 thought is to replace most or all of the driveshaft with one or more electric 
 motors.
 
 I've now spoken with somebody at both HPEVS and Netgain.
 
 The guy at HPEVS wasn't exactly enthusiastic about the plan, but thinks it 
 can be done. He recommends a rear differential ratio in the 6:1 range to make 
 an AC-51 not be miserable. That would require a new 9 rear end for the car 
 and a custom transmission geared appropriately taller to keep the combustion 
 engine happy. He doesn't know much about people doing direct drive or hybrid 
 stuff with HPEVS motors.
 
 The guy at Netgain was most encouraging, and has done something nearly 
 identical to what I have in mind. He didn't recommend any gearing changes; 
 indeed, he suggested that a higher ratio (3:1 or higher) might be better than 
 stock, instead of the other way 'round. He had many very helpful suggestions, 
 such as ways to couple two motors or to get the electric motor(s) to supply 
 most of the power at low speeds and little power at high speeds, thereby 
 maximizing overall gasoline economy.
 
 It seems the beaten path for this type of project is therefore a Netgain DC 
 motor...but I still like the regen capabilities of the AC motors and the 
 reduced maintenance.
 
 I'm aware that only limited efficiency gains are available with regen, but I 
 have a secondary concern. When running in hybrid mode, once the batteries get 
 depleted, the car would become a pure-gas vehicle. It'd be nice to instead 
 use the combustion engine to just barely recharge the batteries enough to 
 still provide acceleration assist -- the same way the Prius and the Volt do 
 things. With regen, that should be straightforward. Without, I'm left 
 thinking of kludges such as using the combustion engine's 12 volt system to 
 trickle-charge the electric motor's batteries, and I'm not so sure that's 
 even safe, let alone possible. However, as a practical matter, this might not 
 actually be a concern if a full 

Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: batteries

[Ben Apollonio via EV]

Too bad A123 went under.  Their cells would have been PERFECT.

You could consider the EnerDel high-power modules carried by evolve electrics 
(and possibly others, but I haven't seen them elsewhere).  They're more 
expensive than CALB/Thundersky but better suited to your application.  32Ah/44V 
at 160A continuous, 480A for 10 seconds.

http://www.enerdel.com/mp320-049-hc-bo-moxie-battery/
http://evolveelectrics.com/power-modules/

You might also try looking into Dow Kokam cells (www.kokam.com).  I'm not sure 
if they only sell to OEM's, but I think they sponsored John Wayland at one 
point.  Similar discharge rates to the enerdel.

-Ben

On Jul 24, 2014, at 10:50 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 A while ago, I had done some back-of-the-envelope math that told me that I 
 didn't need to worry much about batteries until the time came to actually 
 pick which to buy. Now, thanks to y'all, I'm realizing that this may instead 
 be a show-stopper.
 
 To recap, I have a chance to buy a 1964 1/2 Mustang in good shape for not 
 much money. The goal is to get something not unlike the driving experience of 
 a Volt, with an all-electric range of roughly a couple dozen miles and a 
 traditional Prius-style hybrid range limited only by the gas tank. The 
 thought is to replace most or all of the driveshaft with one or more electric 
 motors.
 
 My initial calculations were simply to divide system volts (144) by cell 
 volts (3.2), and multiply that number (45) by unit Wh and price and weight 
 and volume and the like. Almost all the options I looked at gave at least 10 
 kWh for a couple-few grand at a weight less than the average American 
 passenger, so I stopped worrying about it.
 
 But I now understand that many of those options would only be capable of 
 putting out 10-15 kW -- an order of magnitude shy of what a pair of 9 motors 
 would be capable of. And what's the point of having electric motors as 
 powerful as the combustion engine if the batteries make them act like a 
 garage door opener?
 
 In the research I've done since then, it seems that the only ways to get to 
 something capable of supplying the motors with all they can ask for is either 
 to go with a full-sized battery pack, at much (*much!*) greater cost and 
 weight and volume or to go some exotic homebrew route that'll likely cost at 
 least as much, if not even more. In other words, lacking a relatively 
 inexpensive small battery pack capable of high discharge, there's nothing to 
 be saved by going the hybrid route. It'd still gain the extended range and 
 increased performance, but there'd be none of my anticipated cost or space or 
 weight savings -- quite the contrary.
 
 I'm not yet ready to throw in the towel...but it would completely change the 
 dynamic of the project.
 
 So...any chance anybody can point me in the direction of a 150 - 200 kW 
 capable battery with at least 7 kWh capacity (10+ kWh preferred) that 
 wouldn't break either the bank or the suspension?
 
 I'm willing to put in the time assembling it from cells, but the only cells 
 I've found so far that I've thought might be up to the task would set me back 
 five figures, before any sort of management system or the hardware to package 
 them or the rest. Indeed, these cells:
 
 http://www.quallion.com/new-pdf/QLI1250-18650.pdf
 
 have pretty much perfect specs but I wouldn't be surprised if enough of them 
 cost as much as an entire Leaf
 
 Thanks,
 
 b
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Re: [EVDL] Question about amp-hr

[Ben Apollonio via EV]

People talk in amp-hours because it's easy and/or they're being sloppy.  
Batteries are sold in standardized packages (1 cell @ 3.6V for lithium, 3 or 6 
cells at 6V or 12V for lead) at which amp-hours is the metric used to 
differentiate different capacities.  But when you build a big series string (as 
in an EV), the voltage is arbitrary, so you're 100% correct.

Amp hours are particularly useful for at least one measurement:  state of 
charge.  A lithium battery's amp-hour capacity is pretty much constant no 
matter what the discharge rate, while its watt-hour (i.e. energy) delivery 
depends on load (because at higher loads, more of its watt hours are wasted 
making heat in the cell).  Lead's amp-hour capacity is somewhat more 
rate-dependent, but still more predictable than energy.

Likewise, amp-hour capacity is independent of cell performance.  Two different 
lithium ion cells can both be 100Ah at 3.7V nominal, yet differences in 
internal resistance can cause them to yield different energy outputs.  These 
aren't directly specified by a manufacturer, so again, the Ah is an easier 
number to grab.

Cheers!
-Ben

On Jul 9, 2014, at 2:17 AM, Larry Gales via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 I know that   watts = amps * volts,  and watt-hours (wh) is a measure of
 energy, but over and over again I hear people talking about EV batteries in
 terms of amp-hours.  What does that mean if you don't know the voltage?
 1000 amp-hr is not impressive if the voltage is, say, 0.1 volts.  Is
 there some sort of standard voltage, e.g., 3.6 volts, that is assumed when
 one talks about LiON batteries?  Does amp-hours tell you something more
 than watt-hours?
 
 Thanks in advance,--
 Larry Gales
 
 -- 
 Larry Gales
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Re: [EVDL] What serious EVs are available, at what price how do they compare?

[Ben Apollonio via EV]

I know it's not a 'true' EV, but definitely don't forget the noble Chevy Volt.  
At just $34k before tax credit, it provides decent EV range (unlike the other 
PIH), decent performance, a coddled battery that will last forever, actual back 
seat and trunk space (unlike the puny Leaf), and versatility that only the 
Tesla can rival (at 3x the price).  I think its the perfect car for someone who 
wants to go EV, needs more than the 70 miles the automakers have settled on (or 
lives in harsh climates), and can't/won't throw down a fortune for a Tesla.

That said, if you have the money, the Tesla is definitely the superior car for 
99% of your driving needs.

-Ben

On Jul 7, 2014, at 5:41 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 
 
 After seeing many misinformed newswires on that topic, that did not state
 where EVs are available and at what price so the public can compare, I
 thought I would put together this post.
 
 I encourage comments and evdl members to post similarly of what EVs are
 available and their prices in their location.
 
 I searched for new non-compliance-car EVs in the SF Bay area. I think it
 would be interesting to compare with other regions. My local Mitsubishi
 dealership web pages did not list the iMiev so, I left the iMiev out. Here
 is what I found:
 
 
 $32k 2015 Nissan Leaf S Trim r:75mi-EPA, Level-3 charging:CHAdeMO
 http://www.stevenscreeknissan.com/new-inventory/index.htm?year=2015sortBy=internetPrice+ascmodel=LEAF;
 Stevens Creek Nissan
 
 http://www.nissansunnyvale.com/new-inventory/index.htm?model=LEAFyear=2015;
 Nissan Sunnyvale
 
 
 $43k 2014 BMW i3 (EV-only) r:81mi-EPA, Level-3 charging:Combo css
 http://www.stevenscreekbmw.com/new-inventory/index.htm?model=i3sortBy=internetPrice%20asc;
 Stevens Creek BMW
 
 http://westmont.laurelbmw.com/Westmont/For-Sale/New/?ModelId=2432Model=i3
 BMW of Fremont
 
 http://www.peterpanbmw.com/inventory.aspx?_new=true_model=i3_sort=priceasc
 Peter Pan BMW
 
 http://www.eastbaybmw.com/inventory.aspx?_new=true_makef=BMW_model=i3
 East Bay BMW
 
 
 $70k Tesla Model S 60kWh r:208mi-EPA, Level-3 charging:Supercharger
 http://www.teslamotors.com/models/design
 
 
 All these USD prices are before any rebates and will vary (dealerships mark
 up the price wildly to get as much as they can). These prices were the
 lowest ones I found on the above dealership websites. 
 
 In the following 3 different EVs, they each have level-3 quick charging and
 multiple driving modes. These Automakers seem to have made much more of an
 EV commitment than all the others. I am using a price to mileage ratio to
 roughly compare the EVs' bang-for-the-buck (the lower the number, the better
 the deal):
 
 Leaf: ~427 (=32000/75)
 
 i3: ~511 (=43000/81)
 
 Tesla-S: ~337 (=7/208)
 
 
 The Tesla-S has the best overall deal, and the Leaf is the better
 lower-purchase-cost deal.
 
 But besides not being a better cost/range deal, there is another problem
 with the i3. There is nil Combo css level-3 quick charging in the Americas.
 Therefore the i3 only has a 6kW level-2 charging capability in the Americas.
 For some, level-2 is all they need but not having Level-3 quick charging
 that is a game-killer for many buyers. They may hardly use it, but it it
 there if they want to use it, and it adds to the EV's resale value.
 
 
 I suppose we could do a similar comparison with the compliance-car EVs, but
 why? 
 
 Besides being hard to get, harder to get support, they do not have level-3
 charging. Also those Automakers could pull a Toyota and abandon their
 compliance-car EVs to go fcv just to garner more ice-selling credits. And we
 know Automakers and Oil companies are vying for a change when it is time for
 the next U.S. Presidential vote (hoping for the same dismemberment of the
 CARB mandate that happened under GW's reign).
 
 The newswires talk of more production EVs coming next year, but I say why
 wait? If you know what your EV driving needs are, and one of the above fit
 them, go for it. 
 
 
 {brucedp.150m.com}
 
 
 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Their CEO sez Don't buy the Fiat 500e EV

[Ben Apollonio via EV]

I think you're missing my point.  I understand it's not free.  But if you were 
to apply Fiat's accounting to other situations, nobody should ever launch a new 
product or start a company because it's guaranteed to sell at a loss for the 
first few months/years after it hits production, regardless of how good the 
margins are otherwise.  Now, you may say Fiat will never sell enough 500e's to 
recoup their investment, which may very well be true, but grousing by the CEO 
about how he hopes people won't buy the car isn't going to help.

Said another way:  once you've already sunk the RD cost, you don't factor that 
past expense it into whether or not it's profitable to continue making and 
selling the product you've already designed/tooled/etc.

-Ben

On May 24, 2014, at 6:35 PM, Michael Ross michael.e.r...@gmail.com wrote:

 So where does the money for NRE and RD come from?
 
 
 On Sat, May 24, 2014 at 11:41 AM, Ben Apollonio via EV ev@lists.evdl.org 
 wrote:
 On May 23, 2014, at 9:06 PM, Michael Ross michael.e.r...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  No, there is no economy of scale with the low numbers they are building.  
  That is a fact.
 
 Not on the electric drivetrain, no.  But on the wheels, body panels, dash 
 board, seats, and everything else it has in common with the regular Fiat 500, 
 you bet there is!
 
 
  I developed cam and crank sensors for a while.  The tooling for a cam 
  sensor with 10 small components in it (I am even counting tiny neo magnets 
  and some discreet electronic components and an IC) will easily exceed $300K 
  - 10 years ago.  I am  fairly sure the cost is higher for an OEM (I was 
  doing cost conscious aftermarket).
 
  Or if that doesn't help - what would it take for you to build an entire car 
  that meets all the homologation, safety, blah, blah, blah?   It is 
  incredible how much capital expense there is to bring out a car.  You have 
  to make a lot of cars to break even -  whole lot, and you have to be pretty 
  good at it or you will fold.
 
 RD and NRE are not the same as production cost.  When budgeting for new 
 product development, you do want to amortize it over expected sales, but to 
 come out  grouse that you lose money on each car you sell because you 
 previously spent a lot on NRE is disingenuous.  By that measure, Tesla is 
 still losing money on every car it sells because they spent so much investor 
 money on development, so they should just close up shop because there's no 
 money to be made.  By the same measure, Apple lost gobs of money on the first 
 1000 iPads they sold -- they should have come out and whined and asked people 
 to stop buying them because they were losing 1000's of dollars on every one.
 
 I get that EV's are still a niche market and it's hard to recoup development 
 costs.  Hence why I'm wondering if the compliance car mandate is obsolete -- 
 let the companies like Nissan and Tesla who want to invest have an easier 
 time recouping THEIR investments with less competition from unwilling and 
 whiny rich people.
 
 -Ben
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 -- 
 Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain 
 happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?  
 Dalai Lama 
 
 Tell me what it is you plan to do
 With your one wild and precious life?
 Mary Oliver, The summer day.
 
 To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
 Thomas A. Edison
 
 A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
 Warren Buffet
 
 Michael E. Ross
 (919) 550-2430 Land
 (919) 576-0824 Google Phone
 (919) 631-1451 Cell
 (919) 513-0418 Desk
 
 michael.e.r...@gmail.com
 
 
 

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Their CEO sez Don't buy the Fiat 500e EV

[Ben Apollonio via EV]

How exactly is it that Fiat can't produce a teensy car with a tiny battery for 
less than $46k when small (i.e. lacking economies of scale) upstart Tesla is 
able to rake in 25% gross margins on a massive, high-performance luxury car 
with 3x the battery that starts at 70k (which puts the production cost around 
56k)?  And oh yeah, Nissan turns a profit on its $29000 leaf, too.

Is it possible we don't need compliance cars anymore?  Now that Tesla/Nissan/GM 
have shown that demand is real and are making money off EV's, why force them to 
compete with the deadbeat Fiats of the world?

My $0.02

On May 23, 2014, at 3:54 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 
 
 http://autos.aol.com/article/fiat-chryler-ceo-please-dont-buy-the-fiat-500e/
 Fiat-Chryler CEO: Please Don't Buy The Fiat 500e
 May 21, 2014
 
 [image  
 http://o.aolcdn.com/hss/storage/midas/28007ffd7f2a724d2fc78386e2d1dac0/200147006/01-2013-fiat-500-turbo-review.jpg
 The 500e is costing Fiat $14,000 each time it sells (Fiat)
 ]
 
 Company loses $14,000 on ever electric vehicle
 
 Fiat-Chrysler's CEO had a strange request for electric vehicle shoppers on
 Wednesday: don't buy the all-electric Fiat 500e.
 
 While CEO Sergio Marchionne was speaking at a conference in Washington, he
 told the crowd he's tired of Chrysler-Fiat losing money, The Detroit News
 reported.
 
 I hope you don't buy it (the 500e), because every time I sell one, it costs
 me $14,000, he said to the audience at the Brookings Institution. I'm
 honest enough to tell you that.
 
 Marchionne said federal and state fuel efficiency mandates are forcing the
 automaker to build unprofitable cars, according to Reuters. A normal Fiat
 500 starts at almost $17,300, and the 500e starts at $32,650, before federal
 and state tax credits. There is no sales data to indicate how the 500e is
 performing.
 [© 2014 AOL]
 ...
 http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140521/AUTO0101/305210092/Marchionne-Fiat-loses-14K-every-electric-500
 Marchionne: Fiat loses $14K on every electric 500
 May 21, 2014
 ...
 http://news.boldride.com/2014/05/fiat-ceo-tells-customers-to-not-buy-one-of-his-cars-but-which-one/49355/
 'Fiat-Chrysler CEO would rather customers not buy the Fiat 500e EV'
 22 May 2014
 ...
 http://www.complex.com/rides/2014/05/fiat-ceo-sergio-marchionne-500e
 Fiat CEO: Don't Buy a Fiat 500e
 May 22, 2014
 
 
 
 For all EVLN posts use:
 http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_pagenode=413529query=evlnsort=date
 
 http://www.autoworldnews.com/articles/7424/20140514/teslas-elon-musk-200-gigafactories-will-be-needed.htm
 Musk sez '200 Gigafactories' Will Be Needed
 
 http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/05/13/3437155/batteries-sold-first-quarter-2014/
 Sales Of Hybrid And Electric Car Batteries Have Tripled In Three Years
 
 http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/latest/panasonic-signs-letter-of-intent-on-tesla-gigafactory/story-e6frg90f-1226914396206
 Panasonic signs 'letter of intent' on Tesla gigafactory
 
 http://www.theverge.com/2014/5/13/5695442/my-house-is-my-gas-station-and-so-is-yours
 My house is my gas station (and so is yours)
 
 http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2014/05/adorable-elderly-couple-buy-matching-teslas/
 Adorable Couple Buy Matching HisHer Tesla-S EVs
 +
 EVLN: 2014 i-MiEV, most affordable EV in America arrives this spring
 
 
 {brucedp.150m.com}
 
 
 
 --
 View this message in context: 
 http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Their-CEO-sez-Don-t-buy-the-Fiat-500e-EV-tp4669611.html
 Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
 Nabble.com.
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Re: [EVDL] Miles Remaining

[Ben Apollonio via EV]

You say that like it's past tense!  I still have this on my electric Porsche 
914, though only for lack of funds/time...

-Ben

On May 13, 2014, at 7:08 PM, Jan Steinman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 From: Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 
 It had another training system - where you learned never to leave home with
 out a pile of blankets. called air engine cooling/cabin heating.
 
 Also, when you couldn't clean your windshields but you still had washer 
 fluid, it was time to put more air in the spare tire. :-)
 
  I reject get-it-done, make-it-happen thinking. I want to slow things 
 down so I understand them better. -- Jerry Brown
  Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op 
 
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Re: [EVDL] Miles Remaining

[Ben Apollonio via EV]

You, sir, have just described the battery gauge Tesla uses (though the display 
is a tad fancier).  Except they added tick marks every 10% for extra 
convenience.

I find the 'ignorant masses' are capable of learning.  They may not (and very 
likely won't) fully understand what a kilowatt-hour is, but they seem pretty 
good at figuring out that they have 20 of them, they drove 80 miles, and now 
only 2 remain.  Also, they cost $0.12 each (or $0.21 each, 70% of which is 
transmission charge, if you're unlucky enough to have my utility).  Makes more 
sense to give the units their proper name than to make up a non-technical one 
simply for the sake of being non-technical.

-Ben

On May 9, 2014, at 1:22 PM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
 Well, it doesn't have to be called a kwh meter.  I could be called a
 energy-remaining or, to use the term incorrectly, a power-remaining meter.
 
 Or a fuel gauge. :-)
 
 Given the low cost of graphics displays, how about an icon that looks like a 
 battery? Empty (0% state of charge) has all the pixels inside it off. No 
 energy left; you can't drive.
 
 As you charge it, the pixels light up, one-by-one. The icon could easily be 
 100x100, so there are 10,000 pixels in there. You could easily see the pixels 
 being added as you charge. The charge rate is shown by the number of pixels 
 being added per second.
 
 When the battery is full, most (but not all) of the pixels are lit. The 
 amount that fills indicates how much your battery can hold in its present 
 condition. That will change with temperature, as the pack ages, or gets 
 damaged, etc.
 
 As you drive, you can see the pixels draining out of it. Slowly, or in a mad 
 rush if you're driving fast!
 
 All done without units, so it won't confuse the ignerunt masses. Just like 
 a standard gas gauge; it has no units (no gallons, no KWH). But obviously, 
 you could have an option that shows KWH numbers as well.
 -- 
 Results! Why man, I have gotten a lot of results. I know several
 thousand things that won't work. -- Thomas A. Edison
 --
 Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
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