[EVDL] Almost Done, 86 Year Old Uncle nearly There After 34 Years to Get Bucket List GE EV1-B Based EV Car Running

[ptandjb Frontier via EV]

First, Frontier Communications has started blocking the emails from
lists.evdl.org as spam on 9-7-18, and I have been unable so far to get them
to stop, so my primary email ptan...@frontier.com
  email can no longer be used. Upon
recommendation of ECDL Administrator, I created new Gmail account
ptan...@gmail.com   which I re-signed up on
10-17-18. Any responses to my posts sent during this interim time I did not
receive. Anyhow, an update of our progress is below:

 

 

Much progress has been made, car and controller are largely operational,
previous problems solved. One big issue with the ammeter gauge gross
measurement errors was solved by running independent power, ground, and
signal wires directly from the 500 amp shunt. Much of car infrastructure
outside the fiberglass body had to be replaced as stuff goes bad sitting for
decades. 86 year old uncle may be forced to retire at years end because the
construction company he works for is being sold, so we are working
expeditiously to full completion and a few issues are currently outstanding.
My last three or so emails/technical support calls to Flight Systems
Industrial Products have gone unanswered so I will post my questions here.


I made a few short IPhone videos. The first is uncle testing the car horn:


 
http://ptandjb.com/eddiesEV1/horn0941.MOV

The second is a view of dashboard under construction and a view of the rear
engine compartment.


 
http://ptandjb.com/eddiesEV1/intro0940.MOV


The third is a test of the controller and motor contactors. The car has
tires but is up on blocks so the tires can spin freely. The plan was to
press the accelerator to activate the Start switch and then before the motor
had time to spin the tires up to unsafe speeds press the accelerator fully
to make the Bypass switch for full function test. This was done in forward
and reverse.

 
http://ptandjb.com/eddiesEV1/motor0943.MOV


The first question we have does the sound of the motor and differential
sound OK, does anyone hear an issue?


The second question is really big, in that it appears that the wiring to the
motor is reversed in that putting the car in forward with positive input to
L9, the wheels spin in reverse, and putting the car in reverse with positive
input to L10, the wheels spin forward. Uncle and cousin are hoping against
hope that this will change when we get the car off blocks and trailer for
parking lot test runs, but I doubt it. Swapping the wiring on the motor
would be messy, uncle wants to know if we can simply relabel the
forward/reverse switch, does it matter, and is there an intrinsic difference
in the controller between forward and reverse functions of the EV-1B
controller? 

 

Paul Traceski

 

 

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[EVDL] Progress In 86 Year Old Uncle EV Car Project, Now Need Help Integrating FSIP Model 800 Accelerator

[ptandjb Frontier via EV]

Decided to send the 35 year old EV1-B unit back to FSIP for diagnostics.
Bench tested, the unit had multiple failures. Uncle opted for full
remanufacture at cost of $579. Installed remanufactured unit in car, did a
bit more wiring work to fully implement the design, then successfully ran
the jacked up car in forward and reverse by hand operating the FSIP Model
800 Accelerator mounted on a switch board mockup. Now we move forward on to
other issues.

A few pictures:

It was dark starting work so my uncle lifted my cousin to the ceiling to
replace burnt out lights:

http://ptandjb.com/eddiesEV1/lightschange0842.JPG

We were working on filling the brake cylinder and lines with fluid, uncle is
working the brake pedal while cousin trying unsuccessfully to get brake
fluid down the lines. Eventually discovered the 35 year old brake lines were
blocked by corrosion, so all are being replaced. 

http://ptandjb.com/eddiesEV1/brakeline0900.JPG

Our biggest current issue as we move switching controls to the driver
position is figuring out how to integrate the E30-M800-001 FSIP Model 800
Accelerator into the car. While it is 35 years old it appears to work just
fine, I guess it is probably comparable to current FSIP Model 810.

http://ptandjb.com/eddiesEV1/accelSW0847.JPG

The FSIP Model 800 Accelerator has two switches and a trimpot. The spring
loaded accelerator arm so far we pushed manually by hand in testing the
wiring and motor. As shown the top of the arm is moved from right to left.
As the arm movement begins the ACCEL START switch is closed. As the arm
moves left the trimpot send command for increased speed. We did not bottom
out the arm to make the 1A BYPASS switch with the wheels turning for fear of
excessive speed with the wheels jacked up. That function will be tested
later.

My uncle machined a provisional floor accelerator pedal which he shows below
the now disconnected Model 800 Accelerator. Here we are stuck. How do we
integrate this accelerator with a foot operated pedal? We do not have a
clue. My uncle who previously owned a machine shop for decades can build
anything.

Also will consider other recommendations for implementing the accelerator
function. While my uncle has been mentioning retiring now and then he said
finishing and driving the car first is a requirement.

 

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Re: [EVDL] Reposting, Still Need Help, 86 Year Old Uncle Still Trying After 34 Years to Get Bucket List GE EV1-B Based EV Car Running

[ptandjb Frontier via EV]

Talked again with Flight Systems tech support, they recommended
re-manufacture even if they bench test the unit good if we wanted reliable
operation. If 33 year old unit is too old to support re-manufacture by them
they guaranteed they would have a re-manufactured unit that would work. My
uncle is tired of waiting, cost is not a concern anymore, time is. One of
his daughters cornered me and said, all he wants in life is to drive this
car once around the block before he dies. So tomorrow me and my cousin will
visit my indestructible ageless uncle at work, do another test run through
then out the EV1-B unit comes if it fails to run again and I will get Flight
Systems on the phone.


Pic below of uncle yesterday with a granddaughter and one of his 18 and
counting great-grandchildren. Yes, he would fit right in with ZZ Top.


http://ptandjb.com/eddiesEV1/uncle0791.JPG 

 

 

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Re: [EVDL] Reposting, Still Need Help, 86 Year Old Uncle Still Trying After 34 Years to Get Bucket List GE EV1-B Based EV Car Running

[ptandjb Frontier via EV]

-Original Message-
From: Roger Stockton [mailto:rstock...@delta-q.com] 
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 1:36 AM
To: ptandjb Frontier 
Subject: RE: [EVDL] Reposting, Still Need Help, 86 Year Old Uncle Still
Trying After 34 Years to Get Bucket List GE EV1-B Based EV Car Running

Paul,

- is the controller wired as shown in the diagram "EV1WireDiagram2pdf.pdf"?
Paul:   This is a simply a copy of page 17 schematic of EV1.pdf downloaded
from FSIP from whom the controller was purchased August 1985. The goal was
to copy this schematic in wiring as best as possible, there is also a hand
drawn schematic at the site of the car, which reflects actual wiring which I
recall differs from this page 17 schematic in some ways detailed below from
my recollections.

I can see only 3 contactors in the pictures you've posted of the controller
panel; the two at left rear appear to be the F & R direction contactors; is
the one at front right the 1A bypass, or is it wired as a main contactor
(i.e. to interrupt the connection between battery positive and the P (power)
terminal on the controller?
Paul:   My view of the photo is not clear, not that familiar with external
wiring to respond authoritatively until onsite again.

- Is the hour meter (HM) and associated circuitry shown in the diagram
present?
Paul:   The hour meter in not part of the circuit at this time

- is the pump (SP) motor, contactor, and associated circuitry present? 
Paul:   the only motor is the main drive motors, unaware of SP motor, almost
certainly not present.

If the HM or SP are present, I would disconnect the control wiring for them
from the system to simplify things until you have the controller working,
then add them back one at a time if desired.
Paul:   neither present

- what is the nominal battery voltage?  59V is high for a 48V pack (unless
on charge and fully charged), and low for most higher common pack voltages?
Paul:   59V
- is 59V within the operating range for the EV-1 model that you have?
Paul:   Unit is EVIB PNL 48-84V FW GE from original FSIP invoice, so 48-84
volt operational range.

> Using the "General Electric EV-! B, C, D Panel Replacement parts Lists 
> and Troubleshooting/Tune-Up Instructions" manual,  I noted that with 
> SEAT and BRAKE switches bypassed and KEY, FWD, and ACCEL switches 
> appropriately set per 3rd bullet point in Symptom section 1B there is 
> not BV at L4, L5, and L7, just minimal voltage. It appears but not

More likely, the seat switch was not actually bypassed; the left hand
terminals are inputs to the logic, and so should *receive* battery voltage
via the external wiring and switches.  If the seat switch is receiving power
from the KEY SW, and is bypassed (shorted), then you will see battery
voltage at L4 and L7 (jumpered together at the terminal strip).
Paul:   at this time neither the SEAT SW nor BRAKE SW are yet part of the
circuit. L3, L4, and L7 have been jumpered all along.

You won't see power at L5 until the ACCEL START SW closes, which [should]
require the throttle to be pressed slightly, and only after that will you
see power at L9 if/when the FWD switch closes.
Paul:   As I recollect, we did manually engage the ACCEL START SW to no
effect. A good sign of progress being made and a necessary milestone will be
59V at newly jumpered L5 and L9 as described below.
 


To determine if there is an error in the logic (switch) wiring, I suggest
bypassing everything except the KEY SW:
Paul:   Sounds like a good plan below, will plan to follow these steps on
the next trip to the EV car, after doing a simple retest allowing for STATIC
RETURN TO OFF requirement being satisfied, not thought about previously.

- disconnect all wires from the left hand terminal strip except for L3
Paul:   OK, that just leaves FU3 (tested OK) and KEY SW in series with 59V
battery power. No power to EV1-B controller at this time.
- jumper together L3, L4, and L7
Paul:   This would bypass SEAT SW, L4 and L7 have been wired together all
along.

- jumper together L5 and L9
Paul:   This shorts L5 Accelerator Start and Brake switch input and L9
Direction switch input from positive side of "F" coil.

- disconnect all wires from the right hand terminal strip except for R3, R4,
and R5
Paul:   this leaves R3 Output to PMT Driver, R4 Common return to card for
accelerator pot and 1A switch, R5 Accelerator pot input

This leaves the controller wired for forward operation, with the seat,
brake, and direction switches bypassed.
Paul: will either the STATIC RETURN TO OFF or PULSE MONITOR TRIP
requirements be an issue in this test process?

When you close KEY SW, you should have battery voltage at L3 (and L4 and L7
since they are all jumpered).  After closing KEY SW, use a piece of wire to
temporarily jumper L4 to L5 (the jumper is acting as the ACCEL START SW and
connecting the group L3/L4/L7 to the group L5/L9).
Paul:   I presume for safety care must be taken to maintain dielectric
isolation from temporary jumper wire that is to be touched 

[EVDL] Reposting, Still Need Help, 86 Year Old Uncle Still Trying After 34 Years to Get Bucket List GE EV1-B Based EV Car Running

[ptandjb Frontier via EV]

To All,

 

I am reposting from last year asking for any available advice as me and my
cousin continue to try to help get my uncle's EV project started in 1984 to
a successful conclusion.

 

I am still trying to help my uncle realize his main bucket list item while
there is still time. He has been working off and on for over 30 years to
slowly build an electric car. When he attempted to power it for the first
time last year the controller failed to trigger the contactors to send power
to the motor. He said all he wants to do is to drive this car at least once
before he dies. He gets up every day and puts on his union machinist suit
and goes to work in a construction company warehouse in Ludlow Massachusetts
doing maintenance and machinery repair. He has started talking about
retiring and would then need to find another location for the EV project car
if it is not yet finished. So I was asked to come take a look.  In my
distant past I have a degree in electrical engineering and have experience
with SCR controlled injection molding machines so theoretically I should
technically understand all documentation and pretty much understand how
things should work.

 

 

The car chassis was hand built:

 

http://ptandjb.com/eddiesEV1/carfront0491.JPG

 

http://ptandjb.com/eddiesEV1/carside0490.JPG

 

Overview of controller assembly:

 

http://ptandjb.com/eddiesEV1/EV1fullview0483.JPG

 

http://ptandjb.com/eddiesEV1/EV1closeup0485.JPG

 

I had thought last year we had proven that the EV1-B controller was
defective and went back last month to try to disassemble and test the
controller. We repeated our original investigation, with SEAT and BRAKE
switches bypassed and KEY, FWD, and ACCEL switches appropriately set there
was no contactor activation. Looking more carefully at the documentation, I
realized that I had not considered STATIC RETURN TO OFF and PULSE MONITOR
TRIP requirements, and could no longer conclude I had proven the controller
defective. I was confused as the exact process (see confusing manual
excerpts below). Because I was not up to speed on these requirements, we
called it a day and I came home to study documentation and try to figure out
a way forward. An initial successful outcome would be sending power to the
motors in forward or reverse in START ACCELERATION mode.

 

>From the manuals:

 

The control circuit is energized by closing the Key switch, Seat switch, and
moving the Forward or Reverse lever to either position and then depressing
the accelerator, thus closing the Start switch. This applies power to the
control card and, if the "static return to OFF" requirement and the pulse
monitor trip requirement are satisfied, turns on the PMT driver, which will
close the selected directional contactor, completing the circuit to the
traction motor. The directional contactor is controlled by the directional
switch.

*  STATIC RETURN TO OFF - this built-in feature of the control requires
the operator to return the directional lever to NEUTRAL anytime he leaves
the vehicle and returns. If the Seat switch or Key switch is opened, the
control will shut off and cannot be restarted until the Directional switch
is returned to NEUTRAL. A time delay (0.5 seconds) is built into the Seat
switch input to allow momentary opening of the Seat switch. This same delay
requires the Directional switch not be closed until both the Key switch and
the Seat switch have been closed for 0.5 seconds.

*  PULSE MONITOR TRIP - this function contains three features: The look
ahead, the look again, and the automatic look again reset.

If 1 REC (the main SCR) is shorted or lA is welded. PMT will look ahead and
prevent F or R from closing if either condition exists.

If 1 REC fails to commutate, or if lA power tips remain closed when they
should be open, the control will open F or R contactor. PMT will then look
again by testing for a fault and, if none, reclose F or R. If the fault
still exists, the F or R will reopen and remain open.

If lA closes before a second commutation failure, the look again counter
will automatically reset. This eliminates the inconvenience of resetting the
PMT with the key switch if the tripping is due to random noise.

When the PMT circuit prevents F or R from closing, the PMT circuit can be
reset only by opening the Key switch.

 

I have uploaded various relevant files from various sources to my web domain
in directory where they can be viewed or downloaded:

 

http://ptandjb.com/eddiesEV1

 

EV-1 Spec1.jpeg   1st page
original EV-1 controller spec sheet

   EV-1 Spec2.jpeg2nd page
original EV-1 controller spec sheet

   EV1.pdfEV-1B
Troubleshooting Manual & Parts Lists (59 pages)

   EV1WireDiagram2.docx EV-1B Wiring Diagram as
Word Document

   EV1WireDiagram2pdf.pdfEV-1B Wiring Diagram