Re: [EVDL] Article: Electric cars could boost CO2 emissions in some provinces

[Peri Hartman via EV]

One more thing, which is relevant in this early adopter period.  You can 
buy RECs to effectively make your EV power green, no matter where you 
live.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "EVDL Administrator via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Sent: 24-Mar-15 9:26:00 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Article: Electric cars could boost CO2 emissions in 
some provinces



This "Ha-ha, surprise, EVs are worse" game has been around for years.
Bruce, Lee, and some of the other old-timers here may remember the 
mid-90s
report attributed to a once-respectable university (Carnegie-Mellon 
maybe?).
It was a great hue and cry about how the GM Impact / EV1 batteries 
would
destroy the world with lead emissions worse than leaded gasoline's. 
They

sort of "forgot" to account for recycling of lead batteries. Oops!

That's an anti-EV salvo that stands out in my mind, but I'm sure it 
wasn't

the first.

Hint : check the researchers' funding, folks. We think of universities 
as
dedicated to unbiased research and scientific method, but those days 
are

pretty much gone. Today many are nonprofit in legal terms only. They're
now businesses, and proud of it, run by well-paid presidents recruited 
from
business and by boards of wealthy business people. Not many of them 
would
have an aversion to accepting money with greasy petro-fingerprints on 
it.


The real picture of transportation energy use is complex. Because there 
are
so many numbers involved, it's almost trivial to pick only the data 
which

lead to your pre-selected conclusion.

Energy gets used in all kinds of places delivering fuel to an ICEV. 
These

include locating, drilling, and preparing the well; pumping the crude;
getting it to the refinery; refining it; transporting the refined 
product to
filling stations; operating the filling stations, and on and on. You 
could
even reasonably count the energy use in the petroleum company's 
offices, the

vehicles the wellhead workers drive. I'm sure you can think of others.

And of course energy to run EVs comes from all kinds of places, not 
just
coal. In fact, you can run an EV entirely on zero-carbon energy 
harvested

from PV modules on your roof. Try that with an ICEV.

Chip Gribben wrote a response to this argument many years ago. It's a 
well

researched and unbiased picture showing that because of the US's energy
mixture that emphasizes coal power plants, EVs actually can be (in a 
worst
case analysis) blamed for increased output of SO2 and particulates vs 
ICEVs.

However, their related HC, CO, and NoX output is dramatically lower.

Where the power comes from matters. For example, in France, where most
electrcity is nuclear, EVs blitz ICEVs for emissions - 99% less HC, 99% 
less

CO, 91% less NoX, 58% less SO2, and 59% less particulates.

http://www.evdl.org/docs/powerplant.pdf

Better yet, as powerplants are upgraded, and as more renewable energy 
comes
online from PV and wind, the entire EV fleet gets cleaner. Meanwhile, 
as
more tar sands oil gets used for ICEVs, the entire ICEV fleet gets 
dirtier.


These bogus poison-pen-PR analyses do enormous damage partly because 
the
media are so quick to latch onto them. They LOVE to "prove" that the 
status
quo is the very best of all worlds, and that new ideas are all bunk. 
That's

not just because media owners are stolid, top-one-percent establishment
types (though they are, by and large). It's also because reporters are
balloon-poppers by nature. They pounce on something like this and come 
up

gleefully waving it in the air. By the time it's debunked by more sober
sources 3 weeks later, they've moved on to the next big conflagration.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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Re: [EVDL] Article: Electric cars could boost CO2 emissions in some provinces

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

This "Ha-ha, surprise, EVs are worse" game has been around for years.  
Bruce, Lee, and some of the other old-timers here may remember the mid-90s 
report attributed to a once-respectable university (Carnegie-Mellon maybe?). 
It was a great hue and cry about how the GM Impact / EV1 batteries would 
destroy the world with lead emissions worse than leaded gasoline's.  They 
sort of "forgot" to account for recycling of lead batteries.  Oops!

That's an anti-EV salvo that stands out in my mind, but I'm sure it wasn't 
the first.

Hint : check the researchers' funding, folks.  We think of universities as 
dedicated to unbiased research and scientific method, but those days are 
pretty much gone.  Today many are nonprofit in legal terms only.  They're 
now businesses, and proud of it, run by well-paid presidents recruited from 
business and by boards of wealthy business people.  Not many of them would 
have an aversion to accepting money with greasy petro-fingerprints on it.

The real picture of transportation energy use is complex.  Because there are 
so many numbers involved, it's almost trivial to pick only the data which 
lead to your pre-selected conclusion.   

Energy gets used in all kinds of places delivering fuel to an ICEV.  These 
include locating, drilling, and preparing the well; pumping the crude; 
getting it to the refinery; refining it; transporting the refined product to 
filling stations; operating the filling stations, and on and on.  You could 
even reasonably count the energy use in the petroleum company's offices, the 
vehicles the wellhead workers drive.  I'm sure you can think of others. 

And of course energy to run EVs comes from all kinds of places, not just 
coal.  In fact, you can run an EV entirely on zero-carbon energy harvested 
from PV modules on your roof.  Try that with an ICEV.

Chip Gribben wrote a response to this argument many years ago.  It's a well 
researched and unbiased picture showing that because of the US's energy 
mixture that emphasizes coal power plants, EVs actually can be (in a worst 
case analysis) blamed for increased output of SO2 and particulates vs ICEVs. 
However, their related HC, CO, and NoX output is dramatically lower.  

Where the power comes from matters.  For example, in France, where most 
electrcity is nuclear, EVs blitz ICEVs for emissions - 99% less HC, 99% less 
CO, 91% less NoX, 58% less SO2, and 59% less particulates.

http://www.evdl.org/docs/powerplant.pdf

Better yet, as powerplants are upgraded, and as more renewable energy comes 
online from PV and wind, the entire EV fleet gets cleaner.  Meanwhile, as 
more tar sands oil gets used for ICEVs, the entire ICEV fleet gets dirtier.

These bogus poison-pen-PR analyses do enormous damage partly because the 
media are so quick to latch onto them.  They LOVE to "prove" that the status 
quo is the very best of all worlds, and that new ideas are all bunk.  That's 
not just because media owners are stolid, top-one-percent establishment 
types (though they are, by and large). It's also because reporters are 
balloon-poppers by nature.  They pounce on something like this and come up 
gleefully waving it in the air.  By the time it's debunked by more sober 
sources 3 weeks later, they've moved on to the next big conflagration.  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: [EVDL] Article: Electric cars could boost CO2 emissions in some provinces

[Dan Baker via EV]

I live in Nova Scotia, one of those provinces that lie above that 600 tonne
C02 emissions mentioned in that article.  While the last lines of that
article reads that it is government responsibility to fix it many other
versions I read that don't mention this, which will lead to lots of V8
powered truck owners to use as banter why their rig is better on the
environment than a Volt or Tesla, very dismaying.   The local power company
here has been mandated to clean up their act and they have made strides to
do so, switching a lot of their coal burning facilities to natural gas and
employing more wind farms and hydro.  What the government hasn't been doing
here is not giving any incentives for EVs (our province has 0 rebates), no
grants for charging stations and low feed in rates for individual
solar/wind generation.  Electric Mobility Canada is planning on hosting
their conference here this year and there was an ask for putting in a few
charging stations ahead of it.  Well that was met with backlash as being
just a burden for a tax increase! I find it funny they will host it here
with how far behind our province is :-(

On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 8:57 PM, Michael Ross via EV 
wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 7:09 PM, Ben Goren  wrote:
>
> > On Mar 24, 2015, at 3:36 PM, Michael Ross via EV 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > So which is better? 90% efficient
> > > for EVs versus 20% efficient for ICE.
> >
> > ...and that assumes that EVs are forever stuck with getting their
> > electricity from coal-fired plants. I'd bet a suitable beverage that coal
> > represents the minority of electricity going into EVs today, due in no
> > small part to the early adopters being overwhelmingly likely to have
> solar
> > panels on their rooftops.
> >
>
> ​The efficiency numbers I gave are not inclusive of the source efficiency.
> They are for the vehicles only.  So it has nothing to do with the coal
> fired plants.
>
> The source efficiency needs to be part of the discussion.  Electric power
> transmission is pretty efficient, and coal plants are also not so bad.
> Much better than ICE + pumped and refined petroleum.
>
> The next wave of EV adoption will not be as likely to have solar PV unless
> the various the states and fed do more subsidies.  PV is not equal in cost
> to any other power source without subsidies.  Without the 65% I goet back I
> would not have been able to justify it on an economic basis.
>
> ​http://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/index.cfm?page=coal_reserves
> "Based on U.S. coal production for 2012, the U.S. estimated recoverable
> coal reserves represent enough coal to last 253 years."
>
> http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=427&t=3
> What is U.S. electricity generation by energy source?
>
> In 2013, the United States generated about 4,058 billion kilowatthours of
> electricity.  About 67% of the electricity generated was from fossil fuel
> (coal, natural gas, and petroleum), with 39% attributed from coal.
>
> In 2013, energy sources and percent share of total electricity generation
> were
>
>- Coal 39%
>- Natural Gas 27%
>- Nuclear 19%
>- Hydropower 7%
>- Other Renewable 6%
>   - Biomass 1.48%
>   - Geothermal 0.41%
>   - Solar 0.23%
>   - Wind 4.13%
>- Petroleum 1%
>- Other Gases < 1%
>
> The way is not clear yet.
> ​
> --
> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
> Thomas A. Edison
> 
>
> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
> *Warren Buffet*
>
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 585-6737 Land
> (919) 576-0824  Google
> Phone
> (919) 631-1451 Cell
>
> michael.e.r...@gmail.com
> 
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>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Article: Electric cars could boost CO2 emissions in some provinces

[Michael Ross via EV]

On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 7:09 PM, Ben Goren  wrote:

> On Mar 24, 2015, at 3:36 PM, Michael Ross via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > So which is better? 90% efficient
> > for EVs versus 20% efficient for ICE.
>
> ...and that assumes that EVs are forever stuck with getting their
> electricity from coal-fired plants. I'd bet a suitable beverage that coal
> represents the minority of electricity going into EVs today, due in no
> small part to the early adopters being overwhelmingly likely to have solar
> panels on their rooftops.
>

​The efficiency numbers I gave are not inclusive of the source efficiency.
They are for the vehicles only.  So it has nothing to do with the coal
fired plants.

The source efficiency needs to be part of the discussion.  Electric power
transmission is pretty efficient, and coal plants are also not so bad.
Much better than ICE + pumped and refined petroleum.

The next wave of EV adoption will not be as likely to have solar PV unless
the various the states and fed do more subsidies.  PV is not equal in cost
to any other power source without subsidies.  Without the 65% I goet back I
would not have been able to justify it on an economic basis.

​http://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/index.cfm?page=coal_reserves
"Based on U.S. coal production for 2012, the U.S. estimated recoverable
coal reserves represent enough coal to last 253 years."

http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=427&t=3
What is U.S. electricity generation by energy source?

In 2013, the United States generated about 4,058 billion kilowatthours of
electricity.  About 67% of the electricity generated was from fossil fuel
(coal, natural gas, and petroleum), with 39% attributed from coal.

In 2013, energy sources and percent share of total electricity generation
were

   - Coal 39%
   - Natural Gas 27%
   - Nuclear 19%
   - Hydropower 7%
   - Other Renewable 6%
  - Biomass 1.48%
  - Geothermal 0.41%
  - Solar 0.23%
  - Wind 4.13%
   - Petroleum 1%
   - Other Gases < 1%

The way is not clear yet.
​
-- 
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison


A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824  Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

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Re: [EVDL] Article: Electric cars could boost CO2 emissions in some provinces

[Paul Dove via EV]

All you need is one fact. Electricity is generated to make gasoline. It takes 
around 5 kW ours of electricity to refine 1 gallon of gasoline. An electric car 
can travel 10 to 20 miles on this amount of energy. 

Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 24, 2015, at 5:36 PM, Michael Ross via EV  wrote:
> 
> I did not see the CO2 output of fossil fuel vehicles included.  That would
> be a telling ommision since cars are only about 20% efficient.
> 
> The coal plants can burn coal pretty cleanly, but from a CO2 point of view
> not so good, EVs are far more efficient.  So which is better? 90% efficient
> for EVs versus 20% efficient for ICE.  I don't know what the efficiency of
> the coal power - delivered is like, or what the efficiency of gas or diesel
> delivered would be.  But those should be part of the discussion.
> 
> CO2 is "clean," though still problematic. Coal has all sorts of downside we
> usually ignore (I live in NC where we have coal ash issues).
> 
> I declare the article to be a hack job.  They should get a good science
> writer to handle it.
> 
> On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 5:52 PM, SLPinfo.org via EV 
> wrote:
> 
>> Not sure if the list has seen this story but I suspect there are flaws in
>> the analysis.  Not being an engineer and not having access to the
>> calculations I can't tell for sure.
>> 
>> Peter Flipsen Jr
>> 
>> ==
>> 
>> Trying to go green by replacing your gas guzzler with an electric car? In
>> some provinces, that may actually be worse for the environment, a
>> University of Toronto researcher says.
>> 
>> 
>> http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/electric-cars-could-boost-co2-emissions-in-some-provinces-1.3007409
>> 
>> Sent via the CBC News Android App
>> <
>> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=ca.cbc.mobile.android.cbcnewsandroidwebview
>> -- next part --
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>> ___
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> 
> 
> -- 
> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
> Thomas A. Edison
> 
> 
> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
> *Warren Buffet*
> 
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 585-6737 Land
> (919) 576-0824  Google Phone
> (919) 631-1451 Cell
> 
> michael.e.r...@gmail.com
> 
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> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA 
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Article: Electric cars could boost CO2 emissions in some provinces

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Mar 24, 2015, at 3:36 PM, Michael Ross via EV  wrote:

> So which is better? 90% efficient
> for EVs versus 20% efficient for ICE.

...and that assumes that EVs are forever stuck with getting their electricity 
from coal-fired plants. I'd bet a suitable beverage that coal represents the 
minority of electricity going into EVs today, due in no small part to the early 
adopters being overwhelmingly likely to have solar panels on their rooftops.

That is, a great many EVs on the road right now really are solar-powered cars 
with truly zero CO2 emissions.

Plus, basically everybody in the Southwest who charges overnight...is driving a 
nuclear-powered car with the electricity coming from Palo Verde. Questions of 
environmental friendliness aside, nuclear power is free of CO2 emissions as 
well.

Anybody who tries to paint EVs as horrible CO2 polluters is a shill for the 
Koch Brothers, whether wittingly or otherwise.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Article: Electric cars could boost CO2 emissions in some provinces

[Michael Ross via EV]

I did not see the CO2 output of fossil fuel vehicles included.  That would
be a telling ommision since cars are only about 20% efficient.

The coal plants can burn coal pretty cleanly, but from a CO2 point of view
not so good, EVs are far more efficient.  So which is better? 90% efficient
for EVs versus 20% efficient for ICE.  I don't know what the efficiency of
the coal power - delivered is like, or what the efficiency of gas or diesel
delivered would be.  But those should be part of the discussion.

CO2 is "clean," though still problematic. Coal has all sorts of downside we
usually ignore (I live in NC where we have coal ash issues).

I declare the article to be a hack job.  They should get a good science
writer to handle it.

On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 5:52 PM, SLPinfo.org via EV 
wrote:

> Not sure if the list has seen this story but I suspect there are flaws in
> the analysis.  Not being an engineer and not having access to the
> calculations I can't tell for sure.
>
> Peter Flipsen Jr
>
> ==
>
> Trying to go green by replacing your gas guzzler with an electric car? In
> some provinces, that may actually be worse for the environment, a
> University of Toronto researcher says.
>
>
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/electric-cars-could-boost-co2-emissions-in-some-provinces-1.3007409
>
> Sent via the CBC News Android App
> <
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=ca.cbc.mobile.android.cbcnewsandroidwebview
> >
> -- next part --
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> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>


-- 
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison


A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824  Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

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[EVDL] Article: Electric cars could boost CO2 emissions in some provinces

[SLPinfo.org via EV]

Not sure if the list has seen this story but I suspect there are flaws in
the analysis.  Not being an engineer and not having access to the
calculations I can't tell for sure.

Peter Flipsen Jr

==

Trying to go green by replacing your gas guzzler with an electric car? In
some provinces, that may actually be worse for the environment, a
University of Toronto researcher says.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/electric-cars-could-boost-co2-emissions-in-some-provinces-1.3007409

Sent via the CBC News Android App

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