Re: [EVDL] EVLN: This Is The GM-200mi EV Before You Are Supposed To See It (v)

[Ben Apollonio via EV]

Indeed - the Bolt display appears to me to indicate how the energy has been 
spent in an almost pie chart (pink, purple, green).  The pink icon (arrow) 
suggests driving energy, the purple icon (snowflake) suggests climate control 
and the green (battery) I guess might be 12V.  If my reading is correct, 
roughly 50% of the energy went to climate -- not unexpected when you're giving 
tours to reporters.

-Ben

On Jan 8, 2016, at 12:08 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
wrote:

> On 7 Jan 2016 at 17:31, Willie2 via EV wrote:
> 
>> I commented that such high consumption was not unusual early in a trip
>> in cold weather with a cold battery.  The Bolt display clearly
>> indicated only the first part of a trip, ~10 miles. 3) I cited some
>> Tesla numbers, in cold weather with a cold battery, that approached the
>> Bolt numbers. 4) From there, discussion went on to warming batteries on
>> shore power thus circumventing that high initial energy consumption
>> from the battery. 
> 
> Ah, that explains where it came from.  Sorry, I should have read your note 
> more carefully.  Thanks for clarifying, and my further apologies if I 
> sounded (read) a tad cranky there.
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> 
> 
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> 

___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: This Is The GM-200mi EV Before You Are Supposed To See It (v)

[Michael Ross via EV]

It is a bit of a bugaboo that weight is important in terms of energy
consumption. More important is air drag losses, and rolling resistance.  In
the thought experiment where there are no losses to friction, the weight is
meaningless except for whatever change in elevation there is from start to
finish - if you go down overall you actually benefit from greater
gravitational potential at least for that trip. But, it is really a wash in
the theoretical sense..

Yes, it takes more energy to get the heavier vehicle up to speed, but that
is then inertia, and you get it back with some regen instead of wasteful
brakes, or you get it back not losing as much speed when going downhill.
The weight can add to rolling resistance (losses to heat in the tires), but
this is really second order stuff.  If the heavier car is smoother in the
air that is very important.



On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 6:31 PM, Willie2 via EV  wrote:

> On 01/07/2016 03:12 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
>
>> What am I missing here?  I don't understand why the responses to this post
>> are talking about how much energy a Tesla takes.
>>
> I guess I failed to be clear though it seemed quite obvious to me. Let me
> try again:
> 1) The Bolt display was shown with extraordinary high energy consumption
> per mile.  You expressed astonishment at the numbers.
> 2) I commented that such high consumption was not unusual early in a trip
> in cold weather with a cold battery.  The Bolt display clearly indicated
> only the first part of a trip, ~10 miles.
> 3) I cited some Tesla numbers, in cold weather with a cold battery, that
> approached the Bolt numbers.
> 4) From there, discussion went on to warming batteries on shore power thus
> circumventing that high initial energy consumption from the battery.
>
>>
>> The article was talking about the GM car with the cringeworthy name, BOLT,
>> not a Tesla.  That's what I was responding to.
>>
>> They're not at all comparable.  The Bolt is (will be?) a much lighter car
>> than the Tesla.
>>
>> The Tesla S weighs over 4600 lb.  That's more than a Ford F150 4x4 pickup.
>> You'd expect it to be a class A amphog.
>>
>> But not the Bolt.  The rumor mill suggests that it'll probably be about
>> the
>> same weight as a Leaf.  I'd expect it to be a bit more, just because it's
>> made by GM, but not so much that it would use 3 times the energy that the
>> not dramatically optimized Leaf does.
>>
> There is not much difference in energy per mile between a Leaf and a
> Tesla.  Leaf instrumentation is uninformative but battery size and range
> indicates that a Leaf does no better than about 200 wh/m. Teslas can do
> around 250 wh/m in warm weather at 50-60 mph. Typically, in warm weather,
> Teslas can do 80mph on 350 wh/m.
>
>>
>> Maybe there were mitigating factors in this case, but my first impression
>> is
>> - that's just gross.
>>
> Yes, the numbers were gross.  Perhaps it was cold car with a cold battery.
> I expect the Bolt, under good conditions, will do 200-250 wh/m.
>
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>


-- 
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison


A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824  Google Phone
(919) 600-2892 Cell

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: This Is The GM-200mi EV Before You Are Supposed To See It (v)

[Willie2 via EV]

On 01/07/2016 03:12 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

What am I missing here?  I don't understand why the responses to this post
are talking about how much energy a Tesla takes.
I guess I failed to be clear though it seemed quite obvious to me. Let 
me try again:
1) The Bolt display was shown with extraordinary high energy consumption 
per mile.  You expressed astonishment at the numbers.
2) I commented that such high consumption was not unusual early in a 
trip in cold weather with a cold battery.  The Bolt display clearly 
indicated only the first part of a trip, ~10 miles.
3) I cited some Tesla numbers, in cold weather with a cold battery, that 
approached the Bolt numbers.
4) From there, discussion went on to warming batteries on shore power 
thus circumventing that high initial energy consumption from the battery.
  


The article was talking about the GM car with the cringeworthy name, BOLT,
not a Tesla.  That's what I was responding to.

They're not at all comparable.  The Bolt is (will be?) a much lighter car
than the Tesla.

The Tesla S weighs over 4600 lb.  That's more than a Ford F150 4x4 pickup.
You'd expect it to be a class A amphog.

But not the Bolt.  The rumor mill suggests that it'll probably be about the
same weight as a Leaf.  I'd expect it to be a bit more, just because it's
made by GM, but not so much that it would use 3 times the energy that the
not dramatically optimized Leaf does.
There is not much difference in energy per mile between a Leaf and a 
Tesla.  Leaf instrumentation is uninformative but battery size and range 
indicates that a Leaf does no better than about 200 wh/m. Teslas can do 
around 250 wh/m in warm weather at 50-60 mph. Typically, in warm 
weather, Teslas can do 80mph on 350 wh/m.


Maybe there were mitigating factors in this case, but my first impression is
- that's just gross.

Yes, the numbers were gross.  Perhaps it was cold car with a cold battery.
I expect the Bolt, under good conditions, will do 200-250 wh/m.

___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: This Is The GM-200mi EV Before You Are Supposed To See It (v)

[Roger Stockton via EV]

Michael Ross wrote:

> It is a bit of a bugaboo that weight is important in terms of energy
> consumption. More important is air drag losses, and rolling resistance.
> In the thought experiment where there are no losses to friction, the
> weight is meaningless except for whatever change in elevation there is
> from start to finish - if you go down overall you actually benefit from
> greater gravitational potential at least for that trip. But, it is
> really a wash in the theoretical sense..
> 
> Yes, it takes more energy to get the heavier vehicle up to speed, but that
> is then inertia, and you get it back with some regen instead of wasteful
> brakes, or you get it back not losing as much speed when going downhill.
> The weight can add to rolling resistance (losses to heat in the tires),
> but this is really second order stuff.  If the heavier car is smoother
> in the air that is very important.

I think you may be being confused by the fact that rolling resistance is 
(relatively) independent of speed while aerodynamic losses increases 
dramatically with speed.

At higher speeds, aero losses will dominate and so can make it appear as though 
rolling resistance is unimportant, particularly if the vehicle is not all that 
aerodynamic.  As vehicles become more aerodynamic, the rolling resistance 
becomes a more significant portion of the total losses.

Rolling resistance force is *directly proportional* to the force exerted by the 
weight of the vehicle normal to the road surface; this is not a second-order 
effect.

Similarly, while *some* of the potential energy gained due to an increase in 
elevation or kinetic energy gained during acceleration can be recovered through 
regen on the descent or deceleration, not all of it can be.  The inefficiency 
of the drivetrain works against recovery of energy just as effectively as it 
works against the delivery of mechanical energy in the first place.

Cheers,

Roger.

___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: This Is The GM-200mi EV Before You Are Supposed To See It (v)

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

"Since last charge: 7.9kWh used, 10.7mi traveled."

That's 738 Wh/mi.  For once, I'm speechless.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: This Is The GM-200mi EV Before You Are Supposed To See It (v)

[dovepa via EV]

I made an excell spreadsheet and charted my vehicle. Weight was by far the 
dominating force until 65 miles an hour when are drag passed it.
In most cases you can divide the with by 10 to get a good estimate of Wh/m.  
There are variables light temperature and others things they discussed that 
alter this but still an excellent rule of thumb. 


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Michael Ross via EV  Date: 1/7/2016  6:00 PM  
(GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  Subject: 
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: This Is The GM-200mi EV Before You Are Supposed To
  See It (v) 
It is a bit of a bugaboo that weight is important in terms of energy
consumption. More important is air drag losses, and rolling resistance.  In
the thought experiment where there are no losses to friction, the weight is
meaningless except for whatever change in elevation there is from start to
finish - if you go down overall you actually benefit from greater
gravitational potential at least for that trip. But, it is really a wash in
the theoretical sense..

Yes, it takes more energy to get the heavier vehicle up to speed, but that
is then inertia, and you get it back with some regen instead of wasteful
brakes, or you get it back not losing as much speed when going downhill.
The weight can add to rolling resistance (losses to heat in the tires), but
this is really second order stuff.  If the heavier car is smoother in the
air that is very important.



On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 6:31 PM, Willie2 via EV  wrote:

> On 01/07/2016 03:12 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
>
>> What am I missing here?  I don't understand why the responses to this post
>> are talking about how much energy a Tesla takes.
>>
> I guess I failed to be clear though it seemed quite obvious to me. Let me
> try again:
> 1) The Bolt display was shown with extraordinary high energy consumption
> per mile.  You expressed astonishment at the numbers.
> 2) I commented that such high consumption was not unusual early in a trip
> in cold weather with a cold battery.  The Bolt display clearly indicated
> only the first part of a trip, ~10 miles.
> 3) I cited some Tesla numbers, in cold weather with a cold battery, that
> approached the Bolt numbers.
> 4) From there, discussion went on to warming batteries on shore power thus
> circumventing that high initial energy consumption from the battery.
>
>>
>> The article was talking about the GM car with the cringeworthy name, BOLT,
>> not a Tesla.  That's what I was responding to.
>>
>> They're not at all comparable.  The Bolt is (will be?) a much lighter car
>> than the Tesla.
>>
>> The Tesla S weighs over 4600 lb.  That's more than a Ford F150 4x4 pickup.
>> You'd expect it to be a class A amphog.
>>
>> But not the Bolt.  The rumor mill suggests that it'll probably be about
>> the
>> same weight as a Leaf.  I'd expect it to be a bit more, just because it's
>> made by GM, but not so much that it would use 3 times the energy that the
>> not dramatically optimized Leaf does.
>>
> There is not much difference in energy per mile between a Leaf and a
> Tesla.  Leaf instrumentation is uninformative but battery size and range
> indicates that a Leaf does no better than about 200 wh/m. Teslas can do
> around 250 wh/m in warm weather at 50-60 mph. Typically, in warm weather,
> Teslas can do 80mph on 350 wh/m.
>
>>
>> Maybe there were mitigating factors in this case, but my first impression
>> is
>> - that's just gross.
>>
> Yes, the numbers were gross.  Perhaps it was cold car with a cold battery.
> I expect the Bolt, under good conditions, will do 200-250 wh/m.
>
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>


-- 
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison


A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824  Google Phone
(919) 600-2892 Cell

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: This Is The GM-200mi EV Before You Are Supposed To See It (v)

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 7 Jan 2016 at 17:31, Willie2 via EV wrote:

> I commented that such high consumption was not unusual early in a trip
> in cold weather with a cold battery.  The Bolt display clearly
> indicated only the first part of a trip, ~10 miles. 3) I cited some
> Tesla numbers, in cold weather with a cold battery, that approached the
> Bolt numbers. 4) From there, discussion went on to warming batteries on
> shore power thus circumventing that high initial energy consumption
> from the battery. 

Ah, that explains where it came from.  Sorry, I should have read your note 
more carefully.  Thanks for clarifying, and my further apologies if I 
sounded (read) a tad cranky there.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: This Is The GM-200mi EV Before You Are Supposed To See It (v)

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

What am I missing here?  I don't understand why the responses to this post 
are talking about how much energy a Tesla takes.  

The article was talking about the GM car with the cringeworthy name, BOLT, 
not a Tesla.  That's what I was responding to.

They're not at all comparable.  The Bolt is (will be?) a much lighter car 
than the Tesla.

The Tesla S weighs over 4600 lb.  That's more than a Ford F150 4x4 pickup.  
You'd expect it to be a class A amphog.

But not the Bolt.  The rumor mill suggests that it'll probably be about the 
same weight as a Leaf.  I'd expect it to be a bit more, just because it's 
made by GM, but not so much that it would use 3 times the energy that the 
not dramatically optimized Leaf does.  

Maybe there were mitigating factors in this case, but my first impression is 
- that's just gross.  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)