subject:"\[EVDL\] Flooded lead\-acid ooopsie and how to correct best\?"

Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?

2014-08-12 Thread Zeke Yewdall via EV

I've used these a bit on PV systems.  Yes, they can get expensive, but
compared to a new battery bank it's worth it.  Many people go wa too
long between watering if it's a hard to get to location.  Looking in there
and seeing dry plates isn't good.   If you're good about watering them
manually, you don't need an expensive system like this, but my experience
has been that a lot of people do.

Z

On Tuesday, August 12, 2014, Jay Summet via EV  wrote:

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>
>
> On 08/12/2014 08:57 PM, Jay Summet via EV wrote:
> >
> > On 08/12/2014 02:39 PM, Peter C. Thompson via EV wrote:
> >> Another option is to add in an automatic water refill system,
> >> similar to this: http://www.aquapro.net/overview_what.html
> >
> >
> > That does look nicebut man...one website I found sold the caps
> > for $10 each! (20 batteries * 3 caps each = $300 + accessories...)
> >
>
> Or rather $600 + accessories...pardon my math...
>
> Jay
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Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?

2014-08-12 Thread Jay Summet via EV

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On 08/12/2014 08:57 PM, Jay Summet via EV wrote:
> 
> On 08/12/2014 02:39 PM, Peter C. Thompson via EV wrote:
>> Another option is to add in an automatic water refill system, 
>> similar to this: http://www.aquapro.net/overview_what.html
> 
> 
> That does look nicebut man...one website I found sold the caps
> for $10 each! (20 batteries * 3 caps each = $300 + accessories...)
> 

Or rather $600 + accessories...pardon my math...

Jay
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Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?

2014-08-12 Thread Jay Summet via EV

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On 08/12/2014 02:39 PM, Peter C. Thompson via EV wrote:
> Another option is to add in an automatic water refill system,
> similar to this: http://www.aquapro.net/overview_what.html
> 

That does look nicebut man...one website I found sold the caps for
$10 each! (20 batteries * 3 caps each = $300 + accessories...)

$300 would almost be worth not having to lift the tilt bed and unplug
the capsalmost

Anybody who has installed a similar system have a suggested dealer for
an EV sized order?

Jay
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Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?

2014-08-12 Thread Peter C. Thompson via EV

Another option is to add in an automatic water refill system, similar to 
this: http://www.aquapro.net/overview_what.html


Cheers!

On 8/12/14, 10:54 AM, Roland via EV wrote:

Just type in your search engine:  Flip Top Battery Vent Caps

No need to remove any battery caps.  Just open the top and water.

Roland
   - Original Message -
   From: Jay Summet via EV<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>
   To: Roger Stockton<mailto:rstock...@delta-q.com> ; Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>
   Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2014 4:44 AM
   Subject: Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?


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   On 08/11/2014 04:11 PM, Roger Stockton via EV wrote:

   > Most likely a mechanical issue with the ganged caps. Given that you
   >  water infrequently, you might want to check with your dealer to
   > see if they will supply you with individual caps.  The individual
   > caps tend to seal the best, and I believe are available upon
   > request for little or no charge (unless your dealer just can't be
   > bothered to get them for you).
   >

   I've used both individual caps and ganged caps, and I much prefer the
   ganged caps. You don't realize how MANY caps there are until you have to
   unscrew and re-screw them individually...

   Plus, it is easier to set down / pick up / not drop a set of 3 than
   three individuals.

   It seems to me that the "ganged" nature of the caps shouldn't make the
   pressure release valves in them any more or less "good". (unless they
   are by different manufacturers from the individual caps)

   The benefit of individual caps is that you can trade out a single
   leaky cap without replacing two others at the same time.

   Jay
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Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?

2014-08-12 Thread Roger Stockton via EV

Jay Summet wrote:

> It seems to me that the "ganged" nature of the caps shouldn't make the
> pressure release valves in them any more or less "good". (unless they
> are by different manufacturers from the individual caps)

I'm not aware of any pressure release valve in either type.  The leakage I'm 
familiar with is typically 'weeping' around the gasket where the cap bayonets 
to the case.

I think the issue with the ganged caps may be that play in the linkages 
connecting the caps, combined with tolerances in the bayonet attachment on both 
the case and cap can make it impossible to ensure that each cap is fully 
tightened.

It is also possible that the quality/tolerances of the ganged caps is poorer 
than that of the individual ones, given that flooded lead acid batteries are a 
very cost-sensitive product and it seems unlikely that the manufacturers would 
willingly add cost by using a more expensive ganged cap assembly.  Therefore, 
it seems the more complicated ganged cap assembly with its additional parts 
must be very similar in cost to that of the (higher volume, simpler) set of 
individual caps, which might be achieved through the use of lower cost 
materials and/or more lax production tolerances.

Cheers,

Roger.
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Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?

2014-08-12 Thread Roland via EV

Just type in your search engine:  Flip Top Battery Vent Caps 

No need to remove any battery caps.  Just open the top and water. 

Roland 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Jay Summet via EV<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> 
  To: Roger Stockton<mailto:rstock...@delta-q.com> ; Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> 
  Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2014 4:44 AM
  Subject: Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?


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  On 08/11/2014 04:11 PM, Roger Stockton via EV wrote:

  > Most likely a mechanical issue with the ganged caps. Given that you
  >  water infrequently, you might want to check with your dealer to
  > see if they will supply you with individual caps.  The individual
  > caps tend to seal the best, and I believe are available upon
  > request for little or no charge (unless your dealer just can't be
  > bothered to get them for you).
  > 

  I've used both individual caps and ganged caps, and I much prefer the
  ganged caps. You don't realize how MANY caps there are until you have to
  unscrew and re-screw them individually...

  Plus, it is easier to set down / pick up / not drop a set of 3 than
  three individuals.

  It seems to me that the "ganged" nature of the caps shouldn't make the
  pressure release valves in them any more or less "good". (unless they
  are by different manufacturers from the individual caps)

  The benefit of individual caps is that you can trade out a single
  leaky cap without replacing two others at the same time.

  Jay
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Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?

2014-08-12 Thread Jay Summet via EV

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On 08/11/2014 04:11 PM, Roger Stockton via EV wrote:

> Most likely a mechanical issue with the ganged caps. Given that you
>  water infrequently, you might want to check with your dealer to
> see if they will supply you with individual caps.  The individual
> caps tend to seal the best, and I believe are available upon
> request for little or no charge (unless your dealer just can't be
> bothered to get them for you).
> 

I've used both individual caps and ganged caps, and I much prefer the
ganged caps. You don't realize how MANY caps there are until you have to
unscrew and re-screw them individually...

Plus, it is easier to set down / pick up / not drop a set of 3 than
three individuals.

It seems to me that the "ganged" nature of the caps shouldn't make the
pressure release valves in them any more or less "good". (unless they
are by different manufacturers from the individual caps)

The benefit of individual caps is that you can trade out a single
leaky cap without replacing two others at the same time.

Jay
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Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?

2014-08-11 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV

On 11 Aug 2014 at 12:55, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

> I am not sure why one battery remains sealed and clean, while another
> one constantly weeps elecrolyte. ... I am using the ganged caps that
> allow all 3 holes to be opened/closed together. 

The second sentence is the answer to the first.  In fact you're lucky that 
ANY cells stay "sealed."  I have never had good luck with ganged caps. 

I've heard that US Battery will sell you the caps as retrofits, but I have 
no idea who you'd contact about purchasing them.

Every time I recycle a battery with separate cell caps, I save the caps, and 
use them on any ganged-cap batteries I happen to get.  

Roger's answer to your electrolyte problem is miles ahead of my guesses.  
Big thanks to Roger for his wisdom!

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?

2014-08-11 Thread Roger Stockton via EV

Cor van de Water wrote:

> I have added a little "dam" of baking soda around the fill hole of that
> cell, so if it spills during the end of charging, it should get
> neuralized.

As I expect you realise, my concern regarding loss of electrolyte due to 
spillage is that when this happens, you are losing both acid and water instead 
of (mostly) just water as in normal gassing.  Losing both acid and water means 
that your acid strength will drop when you top up the cell, even if you use the 
reserved electrolyte.

> I am not sure why one battery remains sealed and clean, while another
> one constantly weeps elecrolyte. Probably a mechanical issue that the
> seal of some fill holes is not seated properly. I am using the ganged
> caps that allow all 3 holes to be opened/closed together.

Most likely a mechanical issue with the ganged caps.  Given that you water 
infrequently, you might want to check with your dealer to see if they will 
supply you with individual caps.  The individual caps tend to seal the best, 
and I believe are available upon request for little or no charge (unless your 
dealer just can't be bothered to get them for you).

Cheers,

Roger.

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Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?

2014-08-11 Thread Cor van de Water via EV

Roger,
Thanks for the link to that whitepaper, very instructive and reassuring.
It appears that my relatively soft and clean "mountain water" (Hetch
Hetchy) should be no major problem for this one refill. I estimate that
the cells are still under 10% of their max allowed impurity for Calcium
(refilling ~5% with water containing 53 PPM Calcium). I did notice that
the pack seems a little "soft" (sagging deeper than before the watering)
but I think I remember that this is normal - due to the lower SG the
resistance of the cells is slightly higher. Before watering the
electrolyte is a little too concentrated, giving better performance -
but also more plate corrosion.
I did indeed remove electrolyte from the top of the overfilled cell with
a plastic syringe and deposited it in a bottle, clearly marked as
"Battery Acid" to avoid more dangerous mistakes. Now I just need to wait
and drive the car until the level has gone down enough from the
recommended 1/8" below the bottom of the vent well and at the next
watering interval (which is half year due to my sparingly charging, even
though I use the car almost every day) I should be able to put that
electrolyte back in and bring the level back (close to) to recommended
level.

Note that I did drive the car immediately after the overfill event, but
since I had fully charged the pack before, that only meant that the
level was dropping. I did remove electrolyte before charging again.
Due to my removing electrolyte while the cell was not fully charged, I
might have removed too little and the level is probably still higher
than the other cells. Hopefully the slightly lower SG will cause it to
lose more water than the adjacent cells. We'll see.
I have added a little "dam" of baking soda around the fill hole of that
cell, so if it spills during the end of charging, it should get
neuralized.
Other cells are occasionally losing a bit electrolyte also, while the
fill level of all is correct and none should have an issue during
charging.
But that is why I have baking soda scattered over the tops to catch some
of the electrolyte leaking.
I am not sure why one battery remains sealed and clean, while another
one constantly weeps elecrolyte. Probably a mechanical issue that the
seal of some fill holes is not seated properly. I am using the ganged
caps that allow all 3 holes to be opened/closed together.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Roger Stockton
via EV
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2014 12:05 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?

Cor van de Water wrote:

> I presume that you meant to say "unless it's very high in minerals"
> and luckily our water is the "softest" in the area. I grabbed the
water
> report from the city and saw that our tap water has on average only
> 71 PPM (Parts per Million) total dissolved solids, of which
> 53 PPM calcium carbonate
> 12 PPM sodium
> 
> The average Ph is 8.4 but varies between 6.5 and 9.4 since the total
> dissolved solids can vary between almost 0 and 109 PPM.
> That does mean that there are some impurities added to the cells, but
> not a large amount and since the amount of tapwater was approx 5% of
the
> total fluid contents of the cell (my estimate) the total impurity
level
> is about 3-4 PPM added total dissolved solids.
> I am no battery engineer though, so I do not know how bad that is,
> please enlighten me. Or time will tell...

Here is a Trojan whitepaper describing max allowable PPM for various
impurities and the detrimental effects of each:

<http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/WP_EffectOfImpurities_0612.pdf>

For your over-filled cell(s), I would just remove electrolyte from the
cell until the level is restored to normal.  If you don't, you are
likely to lose electrolyte during charge and use of the vehicle due to
leakage out of the cell caps.  Reserve this electrolyte and use it to
top the cell up to normal level at your regular watering interval until
it has all been added back to the cell.

If you haven't yet driven or charged, then the liquid at the top of the
cell is likely almost all just the water that you added, with relatively
little electrolyte mixed in (the lower SG water will 'float' on top of
the heavier SG electrolyte that was in the cell to start with).

Cheers,

Roger.
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Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?

2014-08-11 Thread Roger Stockton via EV

Cor van de Water wrote:

> I presume that you meant to say "unless it's very high in minerals"
> and luckily our water is the "softest" in the area. I grabbed the water
> report from the city and saw that our tap water has on average only
> 71 PPM (Parts per Million) total dissolved solids, of which
> 53 PPM calcium carbonate
> 12 PPM sodium
> 
> The average Ph is 8.4 but varies between 6.5 and 9.4 since the total
> dissolved solids can vary between almost 0 and 109 PPM.
> That does mean that there are some impurities added to the cells, but
> not a large amount and since the amount of tapwater was approx 5% of the
> total fluid contents of the cell (my estimate) the total impurity level
> is about 3-4 PPM added total dissolved solids.
> I am no battery engineer though, so I do not know how bad that is,
> please enlighten me. Or time will tell...

Here is a Trojan whitepaper describing max allowable PPM for various impurities 
and the detrimental effects of each:

For your over-filled cell(s), I would just remove electrolyte from the cell 
until the level is restored to normal.  If you don't, you are likely to lose 
electrolyte during charge and use of the vehicle due to leakage out of the cell 
caps.  Reserve this electrolyte and use it to top the cell up to normal level 
at your regular watering interval until it has all been added back to the cell.

If you haven't yet driven or charged, then the liquid at the top of the cell is 
likely almost all just the water that you added, with relatively little 
electrolyte mixed in (the lower SG water will 'float' on top of the heavier SG 
electrolyte that was in the cell to start with).

Cheers,

Roger.
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Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?

2014-08-11 Thread Dennis Miles via EV

So, we all make mistakes once in a while. If the water is drinkable won't
do anything, but the minerals in it will fall to the bottom of the cells
affected. Now balance the cells by charging extra, then compare the
specific gravity of the cell's electrolyte If it reads above 1265 you can
ignore that. Much lower and you will want to drain the cell, (Just dump it
out while the other two cells closed tightly with plastic wrap under the
cap and screwed over by the cap  to avoid spillage. You don't have to get
it dry, then refill with premixed acid & water solution at 1280 SG. and
slosh a little bit while you were refilling to clear the crud from plate
which is supposed to settle out at the bottom of the cell.  little more
balancing will help it straighten out the sleeping arrangements (Final
mixing actually) and you should be ready for the road.

Dennis Lee Miles

(*evprofes...@evprofessor.com )*

* Founder:**EV Tech. Institute Inc.*

*Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)*

*Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are
intelligent enough,  **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!*

*  You Tube Video link:  http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss
 *

*NEW You Tube Video link: *http://youtu. be/Pz9-TZtySh8

On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 5:05 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> On 10 Aug 2014 at 22:02, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
>
> > I presume that you meant to say "unless it's very high in minerals"
> > and luckily our water is the "softest" in the area.
>
> Yes, that's what I meant.  Sorry, slip of the keyboard.  :-\
>
> If you're sure no baking soda got into the cell, that's good news.  I would
> still check the SG against the other cells.  If it's more than a few
> percent
> lower, maybe consider re-concentrating it, if not changing the electrolyte.
>
> I'm still interested in what others think of this.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?

2014-08-11 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV

On 10 Aug 2014 at 22:02, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

> I presume that you meant to say "unless it's very high in minerals"
> and luckily our water is the "softest" in the area.

Yes, that's what I meant.  Sorry, slip of the keyboard.  :-\

If you're sure no baking soda got into the cell, that's good news.  I would 
still check the SG against the other cells.  If it's more than a few percent 
lower, maybe consider re-concentrating it, if not changing the electrolyte.

I'm still interested in what others think of this.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?

2014-08-10 Thread Roland via EV

Hello Cor, 

If it was known that the electrolyte was at the standard height in the cell is 
to the bottom of the fill neck when new.  The electrolyte would read about 
1.275 sg.  If they were only about 2 weeks old from the factory.  Sometimes I 
had them older than that which read 1.265 sg which self discharge a bit.  

Just charge them until the specific does not raise any more and read the 
specific gravity again.  When we did maintenance of a battery in a battery 
shop, we would first discharge each cell to about 1.200 sg which is 50% SOC.  
This is like a balance charge.  We could do this two ways.  If the battery has 
external links connecting the 2 volt cells, then we had a battery charger that 
could charge a single cell at the same time up to 2.216 volts which is actually 
the 100% SOC. 

Now if the battery does not have external lead links, you still test the 
voltage of each cell.  We had two battery caps that had a hole drill in it for 
a long test lead from a volt meter to go into the cell and just touch the 
electrolyte.  You will the voltage between the two cells which should read 
about  2.21 v for a 100% SOC cell.  If you read the end cells to the battery 
post, this will  read something like 1.3 volts on one end cell and 0.9v at the 
other.  Adding these two voltages together would read 2.2 volts.  This would be 
a good battery.  

This is call a cadmium cell test, because the long probes are cadmium coated 
just like the test leads of a meter. If you find if the voltage of that one 
cell is low, then while the test lead is held in that one low cell, charge the 
battery until that cell reads at or close to 2.21 to 2.22.  What causes the 
difference in voltages, is that the charging voltage increases to 2.22 volts 
when warmer than 80 F. as the electrolyte cools, the electrolyte reading is 
lower. 

I use a battery cell tester that you can get from some auto parts store or 
battery shops.  My is a rubber cover meter that is acid proof that reads 3 to 0 
negative or 0 to 3 volts positive where the 0 is the center scale. 

It is made by the Cal-Van tool company, #545.

It does not hurt to charge lead acid batteries voltage rating of 6.67 volts to 
about 7.75 volts.  If you have a battery specific gravity tester, The 
electrolyte may read hot when we just mix acid into the water.  Sulfuric acid 
reads 1.8 sg while water reads 1.0 sg.  We mix 3 parts of acid to 5 parts of 
water which is 8 parts. 

Dividing (1.0 + 1.0 + 1.0 + 1.0 + 1.0 + 1.8 + 1.8 + 1.8) / 8 = 1.300 sg hot 

The 1.300 sg acid cooling down to 80 F. should become 1.277 sg for 100% SOC. 

Do not put 1.277 sg acid into a discharge battery. Lets say the battery is 
discharge to 50% SOC  which is the battery plates chemistry.  You put in 100% 
SOC electroyte and start charging the battery, this will raise the 1.277 sg 
higher which will raise the level of the electro lite.  

You first must discharge the cells in the battery to the specific gravity level 
lower than 1.277 sg.  We normally discharge the battery until the highest cell 
reads lower to about 60 to 70% SOC. Then charge the battery to about 7.75 
volts.  Watch that the lowest voltage cell electrolyte does not go below the 
top of the plates.  It is normal for the level to drop while discharging and 
raise during charging. 

If the level is just below the top of the plates, just add just a little water 
to just touch the plates and then charge the battery.  The battery may reach 
7.75 volts , but that may be the average of the three cells.  One cell may be 
higher than 7.75 volts while another is below the 6.67 volts which is consider 
100 % SOC. 

Keep charging that battery until the lowest cells reads 7.75 volts.  What is 
happening is  the higher cell that was reading 7.75 volts, it specific gravity 
will stop raising or is slow down, while the lowest cell will catch up.  This 
will take many discharge and charges to do this. 

On one battery we had a cell that was 50% out of balance which normally cause 
by over watering.  When watering try to get the electrolyte level to the same 
level.  After watering a battery for five years and a person just puts in a 1/8 
inch more than the next cell, the cell has more water in it, thus the specific 
gravity becomes lower through out time.  

The only problem is time, to bring the battery in balance.  I built Lee Hart's 
shunts to install on the battery which will help keeping the cells in balance. 

Roland  
  - Original Message - 
  From: Cor van de Water via EV<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> 
  To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> 
  Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2014 8:43 PM
  Subject: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?


  OK, confession time and I need the wisdom from the list how to handle
  this mess I created.

   

  Last night I was in a hurry and wanted to quickly water my pack since
  that was needed.

  So, I grabbed the first of the 3 gallon

Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?

2014-08-10 Thread Cor van de Water via EV

Hi David,
Golfcart batteries have about 1/8" ridge around the battery fill holes,
so it is very unlikely that once the small amount of acid flowed over
that ridge that it made its way back, it was not a large wave of acid,
since it could not flow faster than that the auto-shutoff jug was
filling, which is a trickle. So, I am quite sure that no baking soda
made its way into the cell.
My concern is, now that I removed some acid from the cell to bring the
level back down and avoid overflowing while charging, that the total
amount of acid is lower than in other cells, so this cell will have a
tendency to go flat before the others - not by a large margin, but a few
percent.
I tend to avoid the bottom 20% of charge anyway and floodeds are quite
forgiving in general, also my pack seem to have been relatively well
balanced while I charge it sparingly, so I will just need to be extra
careful in the next weeks until I dare to put the acid back in (after
fully charging, of course - no need to create an even bigger mess)
No other cells were overfilled, as far as I could determine the
auto-shutoff operated correctly all other times (and that is also why I
was not on top of it until it failed to shut off).

I presume that you meant to say "unless it's very high in minerals"
and luckily our water is the "softest" in the area. I grabbed the water
report from the city and saw that our tap water has on average only
71 PPM (Parts per Million) total dissolved solids, of which
53 PPM calcium carbonate
12 PPM sodium

The average Ph is 8.4 but varies between 6.5 and 9.4 since the total
dissolved solids can vary between almost 0 and 109 PPM.
That does mean that there are some impurities added to the cells, but
not a large amount and since the amount of tapwater was approx 5% of the
total
fluid contents of the cell (my estimate) the total impurity level is
about
3-4 PPM added total dissolved solids.
I am no battery engineer though, so I do not know how bad that is,
please enlighten me. Or time will tell...

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL
Administrator via EV
Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2014 9:18 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?

On 10 Aug 2014 at 19:43, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

>  I suddenly heard an agitated hissing from the baking soda on the top
> of the battery, being eaten by the overflowing acid from that cell ...
> I have put extra baking sode around that fill hole after closing it
> carefully and I have since bought a plastic syringe with which I will
> remove some fluid from that cell and store it in a plastic bottle
> until enough water has evaporated from that cell to put the acid back
> in without overflowing. 
> 
> The second issue is more disastrous ...  I had used *plain tap water*
> to fill my batteries ... 

I'm not a battery expert, but this is my take on the situation.

I'm more concerned about the first accident, and the possibility that
some 
of the baking soda dissolved in dilute electrolyte may have flowed back
into 
the cell.  This might partly neutralize the remaining electrolyte, in 
addition to it already being more dilute.

I think I would be inclined to completely drain the electrolyte from
that 
battery, or at least that cell, and replace it immediately with fresh
1280 
SG electrolyte from a good battery shop.  

As for other overfilled cells, depending on how dilute the electrolyte
is, 
they may have become somewhat acid starved.  Thus the electrolyte will
go 
flat before the grids do.  This will set your (now possibly lower)
maximum 
amp hour capacity.  A hydrometer will tell you how much they differ from
the 
rest of the pack.

Assuming you see a significant SG disparity, I'd suggest monitoring
those 
batteries as you drive.  That way, you can stop when they reach 80%DOD,
no 
matter what the other batteries are doing.  That will reduce the risk of

reversing them.

Or, you could drain the electrolyte from them too, and replace it with
fresh 
1280 SG electrolyte.

As for your accidental use of tap water, it's very high in minerals, I 
personally don't think that one watering with it is going to be all that

harmful to the battery.  I don't recommend it as a practice, however.

Especially since I'm not a chemist or engineer, other views are most 
welcome.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?

2014-08-10 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV

On 10 Aug 2014 at 19:43, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

>  I suddenly heard an agitated hissing from the baking soda on the top
> of the battery, being eaten by the overflowing acid from that cell ...
> I have put extra baking sode around that fill hole after closing it
> carefully and I have since bought a plastic syringe with which I will
> remove some fluid from that cell and store it in a plastic bottle
> until enough water has evaporated from that cell to put the acid back
> in without overflowing. 
> 
> The second issue is more disastrous ...  I had used *plain tap water*
> to fill my batteries ... 

I'm not a battery expert, but this is my take on the situation.

I'm more concerned about the first accident, and the possibility that some 
of the baking soda dissolved in dilute electrolyte may have flowed back into 
the cell.  This might partly neutralize the remaining electrolyte, in 
addition to it already being more dilute.

I think I would be inclined to completely drain the electrolyte from that 
battery, or at least that cell, and replace it immediately with fresh 1280 
SG electrolyte from a good battery shop.  

As for other overfilled cells, depending on how dilute the electrolyte is, 
they may have become somewhat acid starved.  Thus the electrolyte will go 
flat before the grids do.  This will set your (now possibly lower) maximum 
amp hour capacity.  A hydrometer will tell you how much they differ from the 
rest of the pack.

Assuming you see a significant SG disparity, I'd suggest monitoring those 
batteries as you drive.  That way, you can stop when they reach 80%DOD, no 
matter what the other batteries are doing.  That will reduce the risk of 
reversing them.

Or, you could drain the electrolyte from them too, and replace it with fresh 
1280 SG electrolyte.

As for your accidental use of tap water, it's very high in minerals, I 
personally don't think that one watering with it is going to be all that 
harmful to the battery.  I don't recommend it as a practice, however.

Especially since I'm not a chemist or engineer, other views are most 
welcome.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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[EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?

2014-08-10 Thread Cor van de Water via EV

OK, confession time and I need the wisdom from the list how to handle
this mess I created.

 

Last night I was in a hurry and wanted to quickly water my pack since
that was needed.

So, I grabbed the first of the 3 gallons that I keep for watering,
filled the auto-shutoff jug

and started going through my pack.

Two things happened, the first made a mess and the second is more
serious:

 

Because some battery boxes are between the frame rails, there are
cross-members that are above the filling caps of some batteries, making
access difficult

so they can only be filled with the jug at an angle.

Apparently having the jug at an angle can defeat the auto-shutoff
because the jug kept on burping slowly (I thought that this was because
it

was at an angle and not running as fast as with the other better
accessible cells) until I suddenly heard an agitated hissing

from the baking soda on the top of the battery, being eaten by the
overflowing acid from that cell. Oops.

I have put extra baking sode around that fill hole after closing it
carefully and I have since bought a plastic syringe with which I will
remove some fluid

from that cell and store it in a plastic bottle until enough water has
evaporated from that cell to put the acid back in without overflowing.

Anyone have a rule of thumb how much I should remove? until it is at the
same level as the other cells filled with the auto-shutoff jug?

 

The second issue is more disastrous and I can't still understand how I
got so confused:

after I used the 3 gallons to fill all batteries under the bed (the
remaining 6 under the hood had to wait till I bought more water)

I put the jug back at the shelf where I keep it and found the 3
gallons that I had purchased a couple months ago and stored there,

near the auto-shutoff jug. They had been behind some wood for a project,
so I had missed them earlier and I realized that I had used

*plain tap water* to fill my batteries, because that is what I had used
the old gallon jugs for - to store an emergency stash of drinking
water...

Quick calculation revealed that each cell received about 250ml of tap
water, because I could fill almost 3 golf cart batteries with each
filling

of the 2 liter jug. Of course that is just a few percent of the volume
of the cell, but I am wondering if the unwanted minerals in the
electrolyte

will cause premature damage to the cells (they are now 2 years old,
9,000 miles and I was hoping to go at least 1 or 2 more years with them,

getting 15 or 20k miles out...)

Do I need to have them emptied and refilled with clean acid or would the
dissolved minerals not matter much in the grande scheme of things?

I need to weigh my options and decide which route to go next & how much
cost and benefit each would have.

Your wisdom is appreciated!

 

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
 
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
 
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626

 

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Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?

Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?

Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?

Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?

Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?

Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?

Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?

Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?

Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?

Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?

Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?

Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?

Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?

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