Re: [EVDL] 1000 x solar break through. (was EV Digest, Vol 116, Issue 13)

2022-06-29 Thread EV List Lackey via EV 
On 29 Jun 2022 at 15:00, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

> If we were to "only" double the efficiency, that would be phenomenal 

Yeah, that would be great, but don't hold your breath.

>From what I can tell, a lot of research is being done on ferroelectric PV 
these days, not because it's likely to be more efficient than silicon 
photoelectric PV, but mostly because it has the potential to be CHEAPER than 
silicon-based PV.  

That's good, but the problem with ferroelectric is that to date its 
efficiency in harvesting sunlight is just pitiful compared to silicon's - 
around 2%.  

So a bunch of research projects are looking for ways to improve that lousy 
efficiency, get it closer to silicon's.

If you search the web for

ferroelectric pv efficiency

... you'll find a long list of papers about such projects.

You'll also find quite a few breathless articles about those projects. Each 
article proclaims that THIS is the ferroelectric "breakthrough" we've been 
waiting for, this time for sure!

It's all clickbait.  It's crap reporting.

This article we're reading (handing mining.com ad revenue) is worse than 
most because of its headline, "Recent discovery may give solar cells 1,000% 
more power."  That's beyond clickbait, and all the way to pure deception.

Call me when I can buy a ferroelectric PV panel that has the same output as 
a  typical silicon-based panel of today, at half the price, or even 20% 
less.  

This isn't that.

Until then, it's just more words, no more significant to us as EVers than 
the thousands of garbage pieces about "breakthrough" batteries and 
"breakthrough" motors.  

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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Re: [EVDL] 1000 x solar break through. (was EV Digest, Vol 116, Issue 13)

2022-06-29 Thread Peri Hartman via EV 
Exactly. I couldn't understand the source article but I did see the 
sentence about 10^3 improvement for one of the substrates. I have no 
idea how that will translate to overall efficiency gains. If we were to 
"only" double the efficiency, that would be phenomenal.


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Haudy Kazemi via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Haudy Kazemi" ; dar...@econogics.com
Sent: 28-Jun-22 19:14:16
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 1000 x solar break through. (was EV Digest, Vol 116, 
Issue 13)



At the cell or module level, these findings won't (can't) make such a large
improvement to output. But certainly there are sub-cell fine tuning
opportunities to improve overall performance. And stacking improvements
helps get performance ever closer to the theoretical maximum. (A computer
analogy is a 10x faster CPU doesn't mean you have a 10x faster web browsing
experience, because a that experience is the sum of many many
interdependent subsystems.)

Examples (not necessarily for this particular finding):

-reduce the amount of material needed to create a cell with a particular
power output

-improve sensitivity to certain parts of the EM spectrum while allowing
other frequencies to pass through the cell

-improve efficiency under lower light intensity conditions (lower internal
resistance)(particularly helpful for using solar in suboptimal orientations
or lighting conditions)

-improve shading behavior



On Tue, Jun 28, 2022, 20:49 Cor van de Water via EV 
wrote:


 PV is about 15-20% efficient (turning solar power into electricity)
 How do you improve that 1000 times?
 Cor.

 On Tue, Jun 28, 2022 at 6:30 PM Darryl McMahon via EV 
 wrote:
 >
 > The paper refers to a 10^3 (1000) times improvement in efficiency of a
 > very specific process in the photovoltaic effect.  IMO, that won't
 > translate into 1000 times improvement at the cell or panel level as
 > there's a lot more going on to turn received photons into usable
 > electricity.
 >
 > Darryl
 >
 > On 6/28/2022 4:07 PM, ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org wrote:
 > > Message: 4
 > > Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2022 10:18:04 -0400
 > > From: Peter Eckhoff
 > > To: Peri Hartman, Electric Vehicle Discussion List
 > >   
 > > Subject: Re: [EVDL] 1000 x solar break through.
 > > Message-ID:
 > >   
 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
 > >
 > > This is the paper the article came from:
 > >
 > > https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abe4206
 > >
 > > Likely worth a read to find out where the 1000% might have come from.
 > > Might be that it's 1000% better than silicon on a $/kw basis.
 > > didn't have time to read the article.  Gotta go...
 > >
 > > Peter
 >
 > --
 > Darryl McMahon
 > Freelance Project Manager (sustainable systems)
 >
 > Climate change is only a problem if you want to survive.
 > ___
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Re: [EVDL] 1000 x solar break through. (was EV Digest, Vol 116, Issue 13)

2022-06-29 Thread Haudy Kazemi via EV 
At the cell or module level, these findings won't (can't) make such a large
improvement to output. But certainly there are sub-cell fine tuning
opportunities to improve overall performance. And stacking improvements
helps get performance ever closer to the theoretical maximum. (A computer
analogy is a 10x faster CPU doesn't mean you have a 10x faster web browsing
experience, because a that experience is the sum of many many
interdependent subsystems.)

Examples (not necessarily for this particular finding):

-reduce the amount of material needed to create a cell with a particular
power output

-improve sensitivity to certain parts of the EM spectrum while allowing
other frequencies to pass through the cell

-improve efficiency under lower light intensity conditions (lower internal
resistance)(particularly helpful for using solar in suboptimal orientations
or lighting conditions)

-improve shading behavior



On Tue, Jun 28, 2022, 20:49 Cor van de Water via EV 
wrote:

> PV is about 15-20% efficient (turning solar power into electricity)
> How do you improve that 1000 times?
> Cor.
>
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2022 at 6:30 PM Darryl McMahon via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > The paper refers to a 10^3 (1000) times improvement in efficiency of a
> > very specific process in the photovoltaic effect.  IMO, that won't
> > translate into 1000 times improvement at the cell or panel level as
> > there's a lot more going on to turn received photons into usable
> > electricity.
> >
> > Darryl
> >
> > On 6/28/2022 4:07 PM, ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org wrote:
> > > Message: 4
> > > Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2022 10:18:04 -0400
> > > From: Peter Eckhoff
> > > To: Peri Hartman, Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > >   
> > > Subject: Re: [EVDL] 1000 x solar break through.
> > > Message-ID:
> > >zszdrpbbsepg40vtnjsv6aez+8-no_5kfg4ljh...@mail.gmail.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> > >
> > > This is the paper the article came from:
> > >
> > > https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abe4206
> > >
> > > Likely worth a read to find out where the 1000% might have come from.
> > > Might be that it's 1000% better than silicon on a $/kw basis.
> > > didn't have time to read the article.  Gotta go...
> > >
> > > Peter
> >
> > --
> > Darryl McMahon
> > Freelance Project Manager (sustainable systems)
> >
> > Climate change is only a problem if you want to survive.
> > ___
> > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> > No other addresses in TO and CC fields
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Re: [EVDL] 1000 x solar break through. (was EV Digest, Vol 116, Issue 13)

2022-06-28 Thread Cor van de Water via EV 
PV is about 15-20% efficient (turning solar power into electricity)
How do you improve that 1000 times?
Cor.

On Tue, Jun 28, 2022 at 6:30 PM Darryl McMahon via EV  wrote:
>
> The paper refers to a 10^3 (1000) times improvement in efficiency of a
> very specific process in the photovoltaic effect.  IMO, that won't
> translate into 1000 times improvement at the cell or panel level as
> there's a lot more going on to turn received photons into usable
> electricity.
>
> Darryl
>
> On 6/28/2022 4:07 PM, ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org wrote:
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2022 10:18:04 -0400
> > From: Peter Eckhoff
> > To: Peri Hartman, Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> >   
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] 1000 x solar break through.
> > Message-ID:
> >   
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >
> > This is the paper the article came from:
> >
> > https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abe4206
> >
> > Likely worth a read to find out where the 1000% might have come from.
> > Might be that it's 1000% better than silicon on a $/kw basis.
> > didn't have time to read the article.  Gotta go...
> >
> > Peter
>
> --
> Darryl McMahon
> Freelance Project Manager (sustainable systems)
>
> Climate change is only a problem if you want to survive.
> ___
> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
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Re: [EVDL] 1000 x solar break through. (was EV Digest, Vol 116, Issue 13)

2022-06-28 Thread Darryl McMahon via EV 
The paper refers to a 10^3 (1000) times improvement in efficiency of a 
very specific process in the photovoltaic effect.  IMO, that won't 
translate into 1000 times improvement at the cell or panel level as 
there's a lot more going on to turn received photons into usable 
electricity.


Darryl

On 6/28/2022 4:07 PM, ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org wrote:

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2022 10:18:04 -0400
From: Peter Eckhoff
To: Peri Hartman, Electric Vehicle Discussion List

Subject: Re: [EVDL] 1000 x solar break through.
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

This is the paper the article came from:

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abe4206

Likely worth a read to find out where the 1000% might have come from.
Might be that it's 1000% better than silicon on a $/kw basis.
didn't have time to read the article.  Gotta go...

Peter


--
Darryl McMahon
Freelance Project Manager (sustainable systems)

Climate change is only a problem if you want to survive.
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