Re: [EVDL] Battery breakthrough?

2022-12-14 Thread Jukka Järvinen via EV 
Solid electrolytes are very important next step in the li-ion development.
And specifically ones with stable anodes. Not li-metal ones that is.

When the whole cell is solid there’s just intercalation going on in every
stage when the ion moves. Meaning there is no chemical decomposition
happening. And what that means? Li-ion cells with +50 year life expectancy.

What’s nuts about this is that we’re witnessing significant price drop at
the same time lifetime keeps growing. For EV that’s nice but for grid tied
energy storage this is the major driver for exponential market growth. BESS
segment will be 10x compared to automotive. At some point EV’s will start
enjoying the scale up benefits and prices keep dropping. Raw material cost
of a functional LFP cell is around $8/kWh. We’re heading to that level
before 2035.

Literature is vast and probably most can be absorbed from scientific papers
online.

The Limiting Factor youtube channel is also nice source. Jordan really puts
plenty of effort to get facts to viewers.

https://youtube.com/@thelimitingfactor

-Jukka

to 15.12.2022 klo 0.07 Lawrence Winiarski 
kirjoitti:

>
> I'm not chemist, but I would suspect that batteries go "bad" for lots of
> different reasons.I know a few tidbits here and there, but it seems in
> general chemical
> reactions are not perfectly reversable because of unwanted byproducts and
> side effects.   I don't believe this can ever be completely eliminated,
> only
> reduced.   Molecules can always arrange themselves lots of different
> ways...good and bad.
>
> Where is a good source for literature about such things battery related?
> (especially Lifepo4 related)
>
> You'd think this was a highly important subject.
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, December 14, 2022 at 01:19:00 PM PST, Jukka Järvinen via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
>
> Solid electrolyte can basically last ”forever”. So this is not actually
> ”news”. :)
>
> Reason why cells go broken today is the liquid electrolyte and passivation
> layers it needs. Function of time and temperature and voltage.
>
> In theory LFP cell with solid, e.g. cellulose, electrolyte can provide
> millions of cycles. Cathode already is stable enough to support that but
> for anode we need some more stable 3D steuctures. Doable and plenty of good
> ideas to be tested.
>
> -Jukka
>
>
> ke 14.12.2022 klo 22.53 Peter Eckhoff via EV 
> kirjoitti:
>
> > Normally, I would bypass something like this except that it is from
> > respected universities and their battery shows with no signs of
> > degeneration after 400 cycles.  Here is the title and link and first
> > paragraph:
> > Scientists invent ‘game-changing’ electric car battery that never
> > loses charge capacity
> >
> >
> https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/techandscience/scientists-invent-game-changing-electric-car-battery-that-never-loses-charge-capacity/ar-AA15efd1?ocid=msedgdhp=U531=5703b2f9ec9647268e57552a807973cb
> >
> > " An international research team from the University of New South
> > Wales (UNSW) in Australia and Yokohama National University in Japan
> > claim the breakthrough could provide a viable and vastly superior
> > alternative to current battery technologies."
> >
> > Does anybody here know anything about this battery?
> > ___
> > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> > No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> >
> >
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Re: [EVDL] Battery breakthrough?

2022-12-14 Thread Michael Ross via EV 
Linden's Handbook of Batteries

 https://a.co/d/9gKbVbn

That will give you an idea about the depth of past and near current battery
development.

This is important, and scads of work is done on it. But, you have to dive
into the scientific literature. Lots of papers are out there in the field
of electrochemical science. You could start looking at papers from the Jeff
Dahn lab.

This thread talks about "batteties" as if that is a specific thing.

I am going to assume the most recent comments are about lithium ion cells
with non solid electrolyte. Talking about solid state cells as if there are
common details confuses the discussion.

The current li cells have a graphene cathode and a lithium anode. The main
problem with longevity continues to be the extreme reactivity of the anode
when the cell is fully charged. It is pretty inert when discharged but when
a lot of li is relocated into the cathode the anode starts to destroy the
electrolyte. The best way around this is to not charge cells fully and come
up with protective additives to the electrolyte. Then there are
optimizations like cooling to keep temperatures low during high current
segments. Heat also accelerates cell damage.


On Wed, Dec 14, 2022, 5:08 PM Lawrence Winiarski via EV 
wrote:

>
> I'm not chemist, but I would suspect that batteries go "bad" for lots of
> different reasons.I know a few tidbits here and there, but it seems in
> general chemicalreactions are not perfectly reversable because of unwanted
> byproducts and side effects.   I don't believe this can ever be
> completely eliminated, only
> reduced.   Molecules can always arrange themselves lots of different
> ways...good and bad.
>
> Where is a good source for literature about such things battery related?
> (especially Lifepo4 related)
> You'd think this was a highly important subject.
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, December 14, 2022 at 01:19:00 PM PST, Jukka Järvinen via
> EV  wrote:
>
>  Solid electrolyte can basically last ”forever”. So this is not actually
> ”news”. :)
>
> Reason why cells go broken today is the liquid electrolyte and passivation
> layers it needs. Function of time and temperature and voltage.
>
> In theory LFP cell with solid, e.g. cellulose, electrolyte can provide
> millions of cycles. Cathode already is stable enough to support that but
> for anode we need some more stable 3D steuctures. Doable and plenty of good
> ideas to be tested.
>
> -Jukka
>
>
> ke 14.12.2022 klo 22.53 Peter Eckhoff via EV 
> kirjoitti:
>
> > Normally, I would bypass something like this except that it is from
> > respected universities and their battery shows with no signs of
> > degeneration after 400 cycles.  Here is the title and link and first
> > paragraph:
> > Scientists invent ‘game-changing’ electric car battery that never
> > loses charge capacity
> >
> >
> https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/techandscience/scientists-invent-game-changing-electric-car-battery-that-never-loses-charge-capacity/ar-AA15efd1?ocid=msedgdhp=U531=5703b2f9ec9647268e57552a807973cb
> >
> > " An international research team from the University of New South
> > Wales (UNSW) in Australia and Yokohama National University in Japan
> > claim the breakthrough could provide a viable and vastly superior
> > alternative to current battery technologies."
> >
> > Does anybody here know anything about this battery?
> > ___
> > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> > No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> >
> >
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Re: [EVDL] Battery breakthrough?

2022-12-14 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV 

I'm not chemist, but I would suspect that batteries go "bad" for lots of 
different reasons.    I know a few tidbits here and there, but it seems in 
general chemicalreactions are not perfectly reversable because of unwanted 
byproducts and side effects.   I don't believe this can ever be completely 
eliminated, only
reduced.   Molecules can always arrange themselves lots of different 
ways...good and bad.

Where is a good source for literature about such things battery related?   
(especially Lifepo4 related)
You'd think this was a highly important subject.

 

On Wednesday, December 14, 2022 at 01:19:00 PM PST, Jukka Järvinen via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Solid electrolyte can basically last ”forever”. So this is not actually
”news”. :)

Reason why cells go broken today is the liquid electrolyte and passivation
layers it needs. Function of time and temperature and voltage.

In theory LFP cell with solid, e.g. cellulose, electrolyte can provide
millions of cycles. Cathode already is stable enough to support that but
for anode we need some more stable 3D steuctures. Doable and plenty of good
ideas to be tested.

-Jukka


ke 14.12.2022 klo 22.53 Peter Eckhoff via EV  kirjoitti:

> Normally, I would bypass something like this except that it is from
> respected universities and their battery shows with no signs of
> degeneration after 400 cycles.  Here is the title and link and first
> paragraph:
> Scientists invent ‘game-changing’ electric car battery that never
> loses charge capacity
>
> https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/techandscience/scientists-invent-game-changing-electric-car-battery-that-never-loses-charge-capacity/ar-AA15efd1?ocid=msedgdhp=U531=5703b2f9ec9647268e57552a807973cb
>
> " An international research team from the University of New South
> Wales (UNSW) in Australia and Yokohama National University in Japan
> claim the breakthrough could provide a viable and vastly superior
> alternative to current battery technologies."
>
> Does anybody here know anything about this battery?
> ___
> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Battery breakthrough?

2022-12-14 Thread Jukka Järvinen via EV 
Solid electrolyte can basically last ”forever”. So this is not actually
”news”. :)

Reason why cells go broken today is the liquid electrolyte and passivation
layers it needs. Function of time and temperature and voltage.

In theory LFP cell with solid, e.g. cellulose, electrolyte can provide
millions of cycles. Cathode already is stable enough to support that but
for anode we need some more stable 3D steuctures. Doable and plenty of good
ideas to be tested.

-Jukka


ke 14.12.2022 klo 22.53 Peter Eckhoff via EV  kirjoitti:

> Normally, I would bypass something like this except that it is from
> respected universities and their battery shows with no signs of
> degeneration after 400 cycles.  Here is the title and link and first
> paragraph:
> Scientists invent ‘game-changing’ electric car battery that never
> loses charge capacity
>
> https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/techandscience/scientists-invent-game-changing-electric-car-battery-that-never-loses-charge-capacity/ar-AA15efd1?ocid=msedgdhp=U531=5703b2f9ec9647268e57552a807973cb
>
> " An international research team from the University of New South
> Wales (UNSW) in Australia and Yokohama National University in Japan
> claim the breakthrough could provide a viable and vastly superior
> alternative to current battery technologies."
>
> Does anybody here know anything about this battery?
> ___
> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>
>
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[EVDL] Battery breakthrough?

2022-12-14 Thread Peter Eckhoff via EV 
Normally, I would bypass something like this except that it is from
respected universities and their battery shows with no signs of
degeneration after 400 cycles.  Here is the title and link and first
paragraph:
Scientists invent ‘game-changing’ electric car battery that never
loses charge capacity
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/techandscience/scientists-invent-game-changing-electric-car-battery-that-never-loses-charge-capacity/ar-AA15efd1?ocid=msedgdhp=U531=5703b2f9ec9647268e57552a807973cb

" An international research team from the University of New South
Wales (UNSW) in Australia and Yokohama National University in Japan
claim the breakthrough could provide a viable and vastly superior
alternative to current battery technologies."

Does anybody here know anything about this battery?
___
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