Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, next level PV Aptera grins.

[Josh Landess via EV]

I hadn't noticed that they were using the hub motors, thanks for 
pointing this up.  I will be a bit more cautious before I consider 
getting one, though I'll still keep open the possibility.  On top of the 
other risks they seem to be asking from their pioneer first customers, 
that one seems like a notable one.


On 7/9/2023 5:14 PM, Alan Arrison via EV wrote:

Thanks for those informative videos. It still isn't real world data.

There is a reason nobody is using wheel motors on highway capable 
vehicles.



On 7/8/2023 8:51 PM, Ryan Fulcher wrote:

So this?
https://youtu.be/CqPMtEIT3f4

Or this:
https://youtu.be/1alRUqx9UX8


On Sat, Jul 8, 2023, 17:46 Alan Arrison via EV  
wrote:


    I was excited about the Aptera until I saw the hub motors.

    I'll pass until I see some real world reliability demonstrated.


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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, next level PV Aptera grins.

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Wheel motors have a lot of issues, but one of the biggest is the unsprung
mass ratio problem, which is especially bad on a lightweight car like the
Aptera.

On Sun, Jul 9, 2023 at 7:10 PM Ryan Fulcher via EV 
wrote:

> Of course, Aptera is also "breaking the mold" with their hub motors.
> Yes, Time will tell of course.  And I hope that we start to see them
> hitting the road by the end of this year.
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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, next level PV Aptera grins.

[Ryan Fulcher via EV]

Of course, Aptera is also "breaking the mold" with their hub motors.
Yes, Time will tell of course.  And I hope that we start to see them
hitting the road by the end of this year.
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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, next level PV Aptera grins.

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 9 Jul 2023 at 20:14, Alan Arrison via EV wrote:

> There is a reason nobody is using wheel motors on highway capable vehicles.

It does seem that many EV developers veer onto that road.  If memory serves, 
that was the original proposal for the Mitsubishi Imiev.  Eventually they 
abandon the idea after wasting significant time and money.  

Do you suppose that they think "Aha!  I'll use wheel motors!"  because wheel 
motors work well for e-bikes?  

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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 To fascists, satire is more dangerous than bullets. They're always 
 humorless, so they have no defense against laughter and derision.

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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, next level PV Aptera grins.

[Alan Arrison via EV]

Thanks for those informative videos. It still isn't real world data.

There is a reason nobody is using wheel motors on highway capable vehicles.


On 7/8/2023 8:51 PM, Ryan Fulcher wrote:

So this?
https://youtu.be/CqPMtEIT3f4

Or this:
https://youtu.be/1alRUqx9UX8


On Sat, Jul 8, 2023, 17:46 Alan Arrison via EV  wrote:

I was excited about the Aptera until I saw the hub motors.

I'll pass until I see some real world reliability demonstrated.


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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, next level PV Aptera grins.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

 Sat, 08 Jul 2023 20:13:37 +0200
From: "EV List Lackey" 
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, next level PV Aptera grins.
Message-ID: <64a9c371.6781.f6a0...@evpost.drmm.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

I'm not an expert or engineer, but I suspect that we're about at the stage
where it would be possible to build an EV capable of a few dozen miles of
daily travel, using solely sunlight from its own PV. 

It might even be a bit more civilized and comfortable than the solar
challenge racers.  In fact, a few such prototypes have been built.

The question is, could you afford it?  High efficiency PV is *expensive* and
is apt to be for quite a while yet. 
We are well beyond dozens of miles and only a millionaire can afford one.The 
World Solar Challenge has a number of different classes. The Cruiser Class is 
dedicated to practical solar vehicles. In the last race before the pandemic 
they had a vehicle that seated 5. Could cruise at 45mph indefinitely and over 
two days covered 1,200 miles. The cells were off the shelf Sunpower cells with 
special encapsulation. Cost was $5,000.00. The hub motors were $10k each. They 
used two. If you dumbed it down and used scooter parts, I bet you could get a 
few hundred miles out of a home built with a cost that is affordable. The 
materials are here. All one must do is bolt them together. Lawrence Rhodes 
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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, next level PV Aptera grins.

[Ryan Fulcher via EV]

So this?
https://youtu.be/CqPMtEIT3f4

Or this:
https://youtu.be/1alRUqx9UX8


On Sat, Jul 8, 2023, 17:46 Alan Arrison via EV  wrote:

> I was excited about the Aptera until I saw the hub motors.
>
> I'll pass until I see some real world reliability demonstrated.
>
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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, next level PV Aptera grins.

[Alan Arrison via EV]

I was excited about the Aptera until I saw the hub motors.

I'll pass until I see some real world reliability demonstrated.


On 7/7/2023 3:30 AM, Ryan Fulcher via EV wrote:

I'm looking forward to being finally proven wrong about the practicality of
PV on your EV when the Aptera starts being delivered...  Of course they did
it by making a body that is multiple times as aerodynamically efficient as
your average car.  At 100Wh/mil (10miles/kWh) what would be 4-10miles worth
of embedded PV becomes 40miles worth.  And they will be doing it with some
tank like hub motors that will be excellent for diy projects and are sure
to induce plenty of EV Grin in the future.
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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, next level PV Aptera grins.

[EV List Lackey via EV]

I'm not an expert or engineer, but I suspect that we're about at the stage 
where it would be possible to build an EV capable of a few dozen miles of 
daily travel, using solely sunlight from its own PV.  

It might even be a bit more civilized and comfortable than the solar 
challenge racers.  In fact, a few such prototypes have been built.

The question is, could you afford it?  High efficiency PV is *expensive* and 
is apt to be for quite a while yet.  

And if you were a multi-millionaire or billionaire and could afford it, 
would you want a radically different-looking and different-acting vehicle 
that didn't have a boulevard ride and neck-snapping acceleration?

Would you be willing to accept the other limitations?  You couldn't park it 
in the garage - a likely show stopper for a car that would cost well into 6 
or even 7 figures - or in the shade. You couldn't spend much time driving in 
the rain, or on cloudy days, or on city streets shaded by tall buildings.  

Again - I don't think it's impossible, just not very practical, and 
certainly not practical for normal middle-class folks.

I think that instead of wasting our research time and resources on 
developing bragging-rights toys for the rich and famous,  we should 
concentrate on promoting things that significant numbers of normal people 
CAN do, such as

1. Getting them to adopt EVs
2. Helping them put PV on their own homes

That means we need to stop letting legislators pass anti-EV laws, such as 
EV/hybrid license surtaxes.

We need them to instead pass laws providing EV incentives, and forcing the 
utilities to quit making grid-tie PV unaffordable.

Unfortunately so far voters don't seem to give much thought to those matters 
when they go to the polls.  That probably includes some folks right on this 
list.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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 said to people, "I offer you a good time," Hitler has said to them, 
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 flings itself at his feet.

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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, next level PV Aptera grins.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

 From: Ryan FulcherI'm looking forward to being finally proven wrong about the 
practicality of
PV on your EV when the Aptera starts being delivered...

   For a decade the Eindhoven Solar team has 4 cars win the World Solar 
Challenge and an RV for proof of concept that solar vehicles work. However the 
Aptera is not properly shaped to place a 1.5kw solar panel anywhere. The trick 
is to have have your aerodynamics in side view. The squished tadpole design 
gives a large flat surface on top for lots of panels. The Aptera is a great 
stand alone EV, however not my idea of a solar design. Solar vehicles must be 
engineered from the ground up. Solar panels on the Aptera are an afterthought.  
I am not talking about the rolling Ping-Pong tables you may have seen. Actual 5 
passenger vehicles with a trunk. We now have the materials to make the 
engineering work.  Lawrence Rhodes solarteameindhoven.nl
  
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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, next level PV Aptera grins.

[Ryan Fulcher via EV]

That is sort of impressive, however at 18mph there is basically no
aerodynamic drag.  And yes, a century old baker electric was already very
efficient. It's easy to tell because the waste heat produced was very low
even back then.

The Aptera remains efficient at freeway speeds, and the differential of
efficiency (versus traditional cars) will actually grow wider the faster it
goes.  I think it would make a good cannonball run candidate.  It reminds
me of an alleged speed run I did in my 2000 Honda Insight where I simply
stood on the accelerator for an entire 10.6 gallon tank of gas and still
got like 36mpg I think.

On Fri, Jul 7, 2023, 16:29 Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> BTW: I wondered who built the first solar-powered car, and ran across this:
>
> "In 1962, the American engineer and businessman Charles Escoffery built
> the world's first solar car. Because there were no EVs on the market at
> the time, Escoffery used a 1912 Baker Electric as the basis for his
> solar car. The car was basically unmodified, except for the addition of
> a plate with 10,000 International Rectifier photovoltaic solar cells on
> the roof. Power was routed to the batteries via power cables at the
> front and back of the panel."
>
> "If you left the Baker Electric with the solar panel in the sun for
> eight to ten hours, the batteries were full charged. You could then
> drive it about 50 miles in three hours at an average speed of 18 mph (30
> kmh)."
>
> That's actually pretty impressive for such early technology!
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, next level PV Aptera grins.

[Lee Hart via EV]

John Lussmyer via EV wrote:
People would also need to be willing to accept the crash safety level of 
a motorcycle.


I don't think it's nearly that bad. Many small and light ICE vehicles 
have nevertheless passed crash test standards and had excellent safety 
records. It just requires that the designers don't use weight as a 
substitute for safety.


An EV example was the Solectria Sunrise, an ultra-efficient 4-passenger 
sedan that weighed only 1433 lbs (630 kg); yet it passed the DOT crash 
test standards at the time (1996).


BTW: I wondered who built the first solar-powered car, and ran across this:

"In 1962, the American engineer and businessman Charles Escoffery built 
the world's first solar car. Because there were no EVs on the market at 
the time, Escoffery used a 1912 Baker Electric as the basis for his 
solar car. The car was basically unmodified, except for the addition of 
a plate with 10,000 International Rectifier photovoltaic solar cells on 
the roof. Power was routed to the batteries via power cables at the 
front and back of the panel."


"If you left the Baker Electric with the solar panel in the sun for 
eight to ten hours, the batteries were full charged. You could then 
drive it about 50 miles in three hours at an average speed of 18 mph (30 
kmh)."


That's actually pretty impressive for such early technology!

Lee

--
Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has! -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, next level PV Aptera grins.

[Ryan Fulcher via EV]

I believe the Aptera should be somewhat more safe than a motorcycle.  I
think they have crash test data and their passenger shell is very strong.

It is more efficient than a motorcycle as well.

I didn't intend to get into the weeds regarding the engineering trade
offs... I just thought the Aptera was a future again worthy vehicle.

While I don't have a reservation, I am an early investor, and I do plan on
putting in an order when they go into production, it should be a step up
from my 2000 Honda Insight.

On Fri, Jul 7, 2023, 15:59 John Lussmyer via EV  wrote:

> On 7/7/2023 3:48 PM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:
> People would also need to be willing to accept the crash safety level of
> a motorcycle.
>
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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, next level PV Aptera grins.

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On 7/7/2023 3:48 PM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:


But, nothing says that a car needs to weigh two tons to transport one 
person 30 miles per day (the daily average according to AAA). It *is* 
possible for an ultra-efficient and streamlined vehicle to do that on 
solar power alone.


There have been plenty of examples, though few ever made it into 
production. Alas, people are slow to change. It may take a long time 
before small, light efficient vehicles become socially acceptable.


People would also need to be willing to accept the crash safety level of 
a motorcycle.



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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, next level PV Aptera grins.

[Lee Hart via EV]

Ryan Fulcher via EV wrote:

I absolutely understand and am of the mind to still proclaim that PV
on a normal car is still impractical.

The only reason it works on the Aptera [and other super-efficient
vehicles] is that it has the aerodynamics and efficiency of an
electrathon.


I agree. A normal car is just too big and heavy, and has too much drag 
for PV to make any real difference.


But, nothing says that a car needs to weigh two tons to transport one 
person 30 miles per day (the daily average according to AAA). It *is* 
possible for an ultra-efficient and streamlined vehicle to do that on 
solar power alone.


There have been plenty of examples, though few ever made it into 
production. Alas, people are slow to change. It may take a long time 
before small, light efficient vehicles become socially acceptable.


Lee Hart

--
Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has! -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, next level PV Aptera grins.

[(-Phil-) via EV]

An RV is a totally different case, especially one that's a trailer, as you
want power for the house loads while it's parked.

Keep in mind a few kWh in an RV goes a long way, but in an EV, even an
Aptera, it's not all that much energy.

Also, you've already "paid the devil" to move the RV with its high drag and
its huge flat roof, so adding a gob of PV there is easy and can generate a
lot of power.   It's hard to add effective PV to a car while not incurring
aero and weight penalties.   Then there's the cost; My argument is simple,
if you are going to spend the $, put it on a fixed roof at an optimal angle
where you get more bang for your buck.

The Aptera is an edge-case because it's so aerodynamic, but ultimately it's
probably still better to spend the money you would adding PV to it on
roof-PV instead.

We were asked time and time again by our customers if we could add solar
panels to our vans, and we dismissed them until we started building the
refrigerated option, then it actually makes a lot of sense.   (and it would
for an RV build, etc)


On Fri, Jul 7, 2023 at 3:07 PM Ryan Fulcher via EV 
wrote:

> I absolutely understand and am of the mind to still proclaim that PV on a
> normal car is still impractical.
>
> Although the https://lightshiprv.com/ is yet another of those edge cases
> that I've always thought might make sense and am glad that someone is
> finally pursuing at scale.
>
> The only reason it works on the aptera is that it has the aerodynamics and
> efficiency of an electrathon.  Another of their talking points is that
> their entire car has the same drag as one side view mirror on my Lightning.
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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, next level PV Aptera grins.

[Ryan Fulcher via EV]

I absolutely understand and am of the mind to still proclaim that PV on a
normal car is still impractical.

Although the https://lightshiprv.com/ is yet another of those edge cases
that I've always thought might make sense and am glad that someone is
finally pursuing at scale.

The only reason it works on the aptera is that it has the aerodynamics and
efficiency of an electrathon.  Another of their talking points is that
their entire car has the same drag as one side view mirror on my Lightning.
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[EVDL] EV Grin doubled, next level PV Aptera grins.

[Mr. Sharkey via EV]

> I bet you'll be lucky to get 15, and you'll have to park
> in the sun with no shade to do it.   If you just took the
> same cells and covered your parking space
> with them, it's a better use of them.

The practical thinkers here have been beating the "solar powered car" 
boosters on this list over the head with this immutable fact for 
years. It's very difficult to convince someone who desperately wants 
to believe something that the laws of physics are not easily skirted.


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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, next level PV Aptera grins.

[(-Phil-) via EV]

PV on an EV will help a little, but it is far better to put the PV on your
house.

We have a 1.5kW Solar option for our vans which have a large flat roof, and
there is little aero penalty, and it gets only about 15 miles a day peak.
We also sell a refrigerated option that's all electric, and this
combination really makes sense as most of the refrigeration power needed
can come from the PV on a sunny day, so it's essentially "free", but other
than this it really doesn't add much to be "worth it".   I find it hard to
imagine looking at the small and curved surfaces on the Aptera that it's
going to contribute much range.   They claim "you never need to charge",
but that can only be true if you are driving less than a handful of miles a
day, at best!  (Bright sunny days, no shading, etc)

Shade absolutely devastates output from most PV systems.  Most PV circuits
only have a bypass diode for only a minimum of about 8 cells, so one little
shade line across one cell can drastically undermine the production of all
8 cells.   Aptera claims "Almost 700w of solar", but the cells are spread
all over the car at many different angles.  The most we see on our vans is
about 1200w peak from the 1.5kW array because they are mounted flat on the
roof and not pointed at the sun like most rooftop installs.  Aptera says
"up to 40 miles".  I bet you'll be lucky to get 15, and you'll have to park
in the sun with no shade to do it.   If you just took the same cells and
covered your parking space with them, it's a better use of them.

On Fri, Jul 7, 2023 at 12:32 AM Ryan Fulcher via EV 
wrote:

> I'm looking forward to being finally proven wrong about the practicality of
> PV on your EV when the Aptera starts being delivered...  Of course they did
> it by making a body that is multiple times as aerodynamically efficient as
> your average car.  At 100Wh/mil (10miles/kWh) what would be 4-10miles worth
> of embedded PV becomes 40miles worth.  And they will be doing it with some
> tank like hub motors that will be excellent for diy projects and are sure
> to induce plenty of EV Grin in the future.
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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, next level PV Aptera grins.

[Ryan Fulcher via EV]

I'm looking forward to being finally proven wrong about the practicality of
PV on your EV when the Aptera starts being delivered...  Of course they did
it by making a body that is multiple times as aerodynamically efficient as
your average car.  At 100Wh/mil (10miles/kWh) what would be 4-10miles worth
of embedded PV becomes 40miles worth.  And they will be doing it with some
tank like hub motors that will be excellent for diy projects and are sure
to induce plenty of EV Grin in the future.
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