Re: [EVDL] Fwd: NEW Dual Carbon Battery from POWER JAPAN PLUS
Bromine and Chlorine are both from the same corrosive column on the periodic table so you want to avoid breathing the fumes. The design of this battery avoids the production of fumes but I don't expect to see a vehicle application in the near future. John Lindsay Currently in LA Usually in Australia On 24 May 2014, at 12:37 am, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 21 May 2014 at 21:29, John Lindsay via EV wrote: ... zinc bromine flow battery ... I don't want to seem alarmist, but I remember reading about a Solar and Electric 500 in the early 1990s, when James Worden of Solectria had to be flown to hospital via med-evac after his car's zinc bromine battery developed a leak. They had to stop the race and clear the track. Something like a dozen other people also ended up going to hospital (though not by chopper) for treatment. That may be why they're not certified for mobile use. Zinc bromine fumes are wicked stuff. You want to be VERY careful with those batteries. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Fwd: NEW Dual Carbon Battery from POWER JAPAN PLUS
I've recently had the chance to take a close look at RedFlow in Australia. They have a zinc bromine flow battery. It has electrodes made of carbon but the electrolyte is zinc bromide. The battery isn't designed for vehicle use and isn't certified for that. It can deliver 3KW continuously at 60 volts so that's 50 amps. There is some scope for surges and averaging out but that modest peak is why you haven't seen many flow batteries in EVs. John Lindsay On 21 May 2014, at 6:21 pm, ralph bagwell via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I have wondered why the vanadium redox battery has not become widely used - yep it uses liquids but gasoline is liquid- if not for vehicles then solar energy storage .The membrane used is expensive but you don't need much . On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 7:33 PM, Geoff Pullinger via EV ev@lists.evdl.orgwrote: On 5/21/2014 10:33 AM, Steven Lough via EV wrote: Sounds almost too good to be true. But like in decades Past, When I can go out and buy a 16 - 20 KWH pack I will then TEST it, and then Believe... ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embeddedv=OJwZ9uEpJOo ) In order that we may get around the whole 'new battery technology' vaporware issue ( and get some decent power for ev's ) we need something that is not a battery. I don't know what that would be but the whole idea of storing electricity in some chemical and then extracting it again seems to generate more problems and less batteries. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/ attachments/20140521/e6398dc1/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140521/1a6d2b76/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] Fwd: NEW Dual Carbon Battery from POWER JAPAN PLUS
Sounds almost too good to be true. But like in decades Past, When I can go out and buy a 16 - 20 KWH pack I will then TEST it, and then Believe... ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embeddedv=OJwZ9uEpJOo ) -- Steven S Lough President EMERITUS Seattle EV Association 206 524 1351 WEB: www.seattleeva.org -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140521/7b57f0e6/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Fwd: NEW Dual Carbon Battery from POWER JAPAN PLUS
On 5/21/2014 10:33 AM, Steven Lough via EV wrote: Sounds almost too good to be true. But like in decades Past, When I can go out and buy a 16 - 20 KWH pack I will then TEST it, and then Believe... ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embeddedv=OJwZ9uEpJOo ) In order that we may get around the whole 'new battery technology' vaporware issue ( and get some decent power for ev's ) we need something that is not a battery. I don't know what that would be but the whole idea of storing electricity in some chemical and then extracting it again seems to generate more problems and less batteries. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140521/e6398dc1/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Fwd: NEW Dual Carbon Battery from POWER JAPAN PLUS
On 21 May 2014 at 19:33, Geoff Pullinger via EV wrote: In order that we may get around the whole 'new battery technology' vaporware issue ( and get some decent power for ev's ) we need something that is not a battery. I don't know what that would be but the whole idea of storing electricity in some chemical and then extracting it again seems to generate more problems and less batteries. I know just what you're looking for. It has a specific energy of 12,700 wh/kg, almost 50 times as much as the best lithium ion secondary battery. It's called gasoline. What, you're looking for something to store electricity? Then you're probably a fuel cell fan. Now with hydrogen you're looking at a SE of around 40,000 wh/kg! Of course it takes at least 80 kWh of electricity to make and store that 40 kWh, but who's counting? And if you make it from natural gas, you produce more CO2 than you would by burning an equivalent-energy amount of gasoline - but, again, who's counting? Here's the thing. Right now, the ICEV is about where home audio playback was in 1980. Back then we had evolved recording and playback of a crude mechanical recording medium - the vinyl record - to a stunning level of refinement. Then digital media (CDs) came along. They replaced the mechanical complexity of the phono cartridge, arm, and turntable with electronic complexity in integrated circuits - a much more robust model. Aside from a small number of diehard vinyl fans, hardly anyone has looked back since. The EV is a similar step forward. The most complex EV drive is mechanically far simpler than an ICE, especially an ICE with an automatic transmission. In fact, the only reason that normal people can afford these incredibly complex ICEVs is that mass production has fully commodified both the system and its many thousands of tiny, high-precision components. Batteries, on the other hand, are wonderfully simple devices. While I don't entirely agree with the way Tesla has gone with their batteries - they've given up some of the battery's simplicity - they've done a fine job of building on commodified lithium laptop batteries, and they've created an EV with extraordinary - almost unexpected - public acceptance. Fuel cells are not simple devices, nor are they a consumer commodity. You don't find fuel cells in ANY consumer device, period (unless you count the tiny zinc-air batteries in hearing aids). Putting FCs in vehicles would merely introduce a different kind of complexity in place of the ICE's complexity. As I see it, this would effectively push us back to the first third of the 20th century in terms of the evolution of vehicles as commodified products. IMO, that is simply not going to work in 21st century markets. David Roden EVDL Administrator http://www.evdl.org/ ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Fwd: NEW Dual Carbon Battery from POWER JAPAN PLUS
I have wondered why the vanadium redox battery has not become widely used - yep it uses liquids but gasoline is liquid- if not for vehicles then solar energy storage .The membrane used is expensive but you don't need much . On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 7:33 PM, Geoff Pullinger via EV ev@lists.evdl.orgwrote: On 5/21/2014 10:33 AM, Steven Lough via EV wrote: Sounds almost too good to be true. But like in decades Past, When I can go out and buy a 16 - 20 KWH pack I will then TEST it, and then Believe... ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embeddedv=OJwZ9uEpJOo ) In order that we may get around the whole 'new battery technology' vaporware issue ( and get some decent power for ev's ) we need something that is not a battery. I don't know what that would be but the whole idea of storing electricity in some chemical and then extracting it again seems to generate more problems and less batteries. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/ attachments/20140521/e6398dc1/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140521/1a6d2b76/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
