Re: [EVDL] unfurling panels [was: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars]
> Peri Hartman > [EVDL] unfurling panels [was: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars] > I think what would be interesting, perhaps not so practical, would be to design an EV for aerodynamcis. But, when parked, it would "unfurl" a large collection of solar panels which could be more-or-less aimed. > It would still require having a fairly large battery, so this isn't the same sort of thing as the Stella. Depending on how much wind the panels might catch, it might need stabilizers, similar to what excavators use. I can imagine all sorts of geometries. > Even on a dull Seattle december day, this might capture enough energy for the daily commute to never need plugging in. > Peri * I really like the Hyundai Ionic for its superb efficiency On the ABRP-site it seems like it has even lower consumption than the Model3. but the double curved shape of the roof is probably not optimal for solar cell bending.. Sunpower cells can actually bend, but only in one direction at the time! :- ) Ionic, yes very very good eff. but still, the Ionic is a bit old now, would I buy a car with a 28kWh pack in 2019? for 40 000 USD... Or go for the Kona instead? Kona is not the type of car that I need, also it consumes more energy at higher speeds, but it have a very large and modern battery pack, at the same price as the Ionic, hmm.. I just wish they did an nice upgrade to the Ionic pack very soon, to something at least similar to the Zoe 40(?)kWh pack, or the "new" 120Ah cells in the BMWi3. But for a person that have any kind of need for off-grid solar installation that produce several hundreds of watts for the full 17-20 hours summer days, and if he also like to get a huge lithium battery storage for the house for "free", +a powerful inverter to "plug in and charge up the house" using a normal Schuko 1 phase 16Amp 3.7kW 2.5mm2 cord , or use the the type 2 plug(or a 3phase redplug?) to get even higher power levels if there is a need for that, up to 11kW peak output, If that kind of needs do exists from time to time, maybe at a visit to the remote summer-house/cabin? Then I think the Sion is probably a really good idea compared to buy all that stuff exra for a permanent installation, and use it probably not so much, https://sonomotors.com/sion.html/ To me this seems like a complete off-grid installation, on wheels :- ) it is a boxy looking car, so the Aero is probably not that great.. (but the size/frontal area seems relatively small. Also the kWh/km and indicated range looks "ok") If needed, you can also just drive away with your nice mobile offgrid solar installation to a charging station, or visit some nice on-grid-friends, to get some more juice for the house, https://sonomotors.com/wp-content/uploads/Information_Sheet_Sion_EN.pdf I like the car and the concept overall, at that price-point, and solar cells is not that expensive any more, ..so why not? In the summer this car would probably do all my regular trips on "self charge" sunlight power only, so it might be some months without a need to plug it in at all.. I think that is cool :- ) Yes the same solar cells on a 300 degree or 360 tracker would perform better, but then I need to buy a much larger battery for the home, if not there for some days or weeks, So I guess it will not be "more" energy for the same amount of money. And I also need to buy a bigger charge controller. And a tracker... and install a second larger inverter at home to, for the peak loads. I also like the "open source" attitude they seems to have at sonomotors, free access to stuff like servicemanuals and online step by step videos for any local car repair shops / John -- Original Message -- From: "Bobby Keeland via EV" To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" Cc: "Bobby Keeland" Sent: 22-Oct-18 6:47:55 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars (charging while parked) >My wife and I are on the waiting list for a 220 mile range Model 3. We >don't need the 310 mile range or the high performance. > >When we travel it is usually by motorhome. I've thought about towing >the EV >on a trailer that is covered with solar panels. A recharge while boon >docking would be no problem. >BobK > >On Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 8:41 AM Robert Bruninga via EV > >wrote: > >>ALL EV's are predominantly charged while parked. Solar panels on EV's >>are >>not for propulsion power but for battery charging during the 8 to 16 >>hour >>solar day while parked in the sun, not just the 30 minutes the car is >>in >>use. This is for those without a dedicated charger at home. >> >>Bob >> >> >>-Original Message- >>From: EV On Behalf Of Alan Arrison via
Re: [EVDL] unfurling panels [was: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars]
How about PV paint? - Mark Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > On Oct 22, 2018, at 12:01 PM, Lee Hart via EV wrote: > > Peri Hartman via EV wrote: >> I think what would be interesting, perhaps not so practical, would be to >> design an EV for aerodynamcis. But, when parked, it would "unfurl" a >> large collection of solar panels which could be more-or-less aimed. > > Various people have done this as a "one off" experiment. I guess it works, > but is a bit bulky and a nuisance to set up and take down. > > There was a guy who added a small wind geneerator to it as well. When parked, > he set it up to generate power from the wind even if there was no sun. That > works even at night. :-) > > I think it might be easier to integrate the PV cells into the body of the > vehicle itself. That's what the solar raycers do. They achieve a highly > aerodynamic shape by bonding the individual PV cells directly to the body. > This is very time-consuming on an one-off basis. But in a mass production > situation, I imagine it wouldn't be much different than binding the cells to > any other basically flat surface. You could have a solar hood, or trunk lid, > or roof. > > -- > Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple, > reliable, straightforward, readily available, easy to use, and > affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy. > -- > Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com > ___ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] unfurling panels [was: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars]
Peri Hartman via EV wrote: I think what would be interesting, perhaps not so practical, would be to design an EV for aerodynamcis. But, when parked, it would "unfurl" a large collection of solar panels which could be more-or-less aimed. Various people have done this as a "one off" experiment. I guess it works, but is a bit bulky and a nuisance to set up and take down. There was a guy who added a small wind geneerator to it as well. When parked, he set it up to generate power from the wind even if there was no sun. That works even at night. :-) I think it might be easier to integrate the PV cells into the body of the vehicle itself. That's what the solar raycers do. They achieve a highly aerodynamic shape by bonding the individual PV cells directly to the body. This is very time-consuming on an one-off basis. But in a mass production situation, I imagine it wouldn't be much different than binding the cells to any other basically flat surface. You could have a solar hood, or trunk lid, or roof. -- Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple, reliable, straightforward, readily available, easy to use, and affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy. -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] unfurling panels [was: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars]
I think what would be interesting, perhaps not so practical, would be to design an EV for aerodynamcis. But, when parked, it would "unfurl" a large collection of solar panels which could be more-or-less aimed. It would still require having a fairly large battery, so this isn't the same sort of thing as the Stella. Depending on how much wind the panels might catch, it might need stabilizers, similar to what excavators use. I can imagine all sorts of geometries. Even on a dull Seattle december day, this might capture enough energy for the daily commute to never need plugging in. Peri -- Original Message -- From: "Bobby Keeland via EV" To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" Cc: "Bobby Keeland" Sent: 22-Oct-18 6:47:55 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars (charging while parked) My wife and I are on the waiting list for a 220 mile range Model 3. We don't need the 310 mile range or the high performance. When we travel it is usually by motorhome. I've thought about towing the EV on a trailer that is covered with solar panels. A recharge while boon docking would be no problem. BobK On Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 8:41 AM Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: ALL EV's are predominantly charged while parked. Solar panels on EV's are not for propulsion power but for battery charging during the 8 to 16 hour solar day while parked in the sun, not just the 30 minutes the car is in use. This is for those without a dedicated charger at home. Bob -Original Message- From: EV On Behalf Of Alan Arrison via EV Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2018 7:26 PM To: ev@lists.evdl.org Cc: Alan Arrison Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars The numbers don't add up for solar panels on automobiles, never have, never will. This has been proven time and time again. There is no way it gets even 20 miles per kWh under anything but perfect conditions and slow speeds. And the energy from the panels again is under perfect conditions. It is so light because it has almost no crash protection. Al On 10/21/2018 3:09 PM, Larry Gales via EV wrote: > When I look at the Stella Lux and Stella Vie, I get very different > results from the negative views of solar powered cars. I start with > the assumption that the Dutch students who have won most of the solar > car records are not actually lying. So, the specs for the 4 passenger > Stella Lux include these: > > > > Length > > 178 inches > > Width > > 69 inches > > Height > > 44 inches > > Weight > > 826 pounds > > Battery Capacity > > 15 kWh > > Motor Efficiency > > 97 percent > > Range on sunny day (Netherlands) > > 621 miles > > Range on sunny day (Australia) > > 683 miles > > Range at night (on battery) > > 403 miles > > Top Speed > > 77 mph > > > > So, if the range at night is 403 miles and the battery is 15 kWh, that > translates to 26.8 miles/kWh. Let us suppose that is under ideal > conditions, and that a more realistic value is 20 miles/kWh. The > solar PV array is 1.5 kW, so a more realistic value under real world > conditions is > 0.75 kW. In Seattle, where I live, which has about the worst solar > potential in the USA, the average solar intensity in July is 6.3 sun > hours. > So, (0.75 * 6.3 * 20) = 94.5 miles. If we usually travel only 40 > miles/day, I could easily see traveling 200 miles on accumulated solar > energy, after, say, a week of 40 miles/day travel. And given that 5 > months/year we average over 60% of the July values we can travel about > 60 miles/day just on stored sunlight from the car. And the 5 > passenger Stella Vie is just as efficient. > > On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 12:09 AM brucedp5 via EV > wrote: > >> >> https://qz.com/1423288/why-dont-we-have-solar-powered-cars-physics/ >> The physics of why we don’t have solar-powered cars October 15, 2018 >> Michael J. Coren >> >> [image >> https://cms.qz.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/image1-e1539387897807.p >> ng >> The Sono Motors Car >> ] >> >> The nuclear furnace at the center of solar system powers almost >> everything on earth. Photosynthesis, wind, and even fossil fuels >> (once decomposed living matter) all derive in some way from the star we >> call the Sun. >> >> So why isn’t it enough to power our cars? >> >> It’s all about energy density: how much energy falls on a surface >> relative to how much is consumed. We can have solar powered e-bikes >> that cover thousands of miles, sailboat drones that cross oceans, >> even ultra-light aircraft that circumnavigate the globe. What do they >> have in common? >> They’re >> all very light, slow, and consume a trickle of electrons. Solar >> panels generate just enough electricity to keep them moving. >> >> For anything weighing thousands of pounds, like a car, the energy >> equation is daunting. A few intrepid carmakers are slapping solar >> panels on their vehicles anyway. Few have gotten very far. The German >> startup Sono Motors is adding 330
