Re: [EVDL] [GGEVA] Hydrogen Highway to nowhere!
On 20 Aug 2021 at 19:35, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote: > Taking the cheaper price of $16.85/kg, $84 will take you 312 miles, for a cost > of 27 cents per mile. Sorry, I made an error in this. The cheaper price is $12.85/kg. At that price a $64 H2 fillup will go 312 miles for about 21 cents per mile. At the more expensive Long beach price of $16.63/kg the Mirai cost would be 27 cents per mile. An ICEV @ 35mpg and $4.39/gal is 12.5 cents per mile. An EV @ 300 wh/mi and 15.34 cents/kWh is 4.6 cents per mile. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Cryptocurrency: Idling your car 24 hours a day to produce worked sudokus, which you trade for heroin. Non-Fungible Token: A heroin sudoku with a picture on the back. -- Anonymous (found on the net) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] [GGEVA] Hydrogen Highway to nowhere!
On 20 Aug 2021 at 17:15, Peter Eckhoff via EV wrote: > How far will $15,000 in "free fuel" take the Mirai? I looked into this. According to a couple of sources, for the initial 2015 model, a full tank of H2 would take the car 312 miles. More recent Mirais have longer range, but I think (not sure) that's because they have larger tanks. I read in a 2016 review of the car that a fillup in California then cost $85. From that, I concluded that Toyota's $15k subsidy was good for about 55,000 miles. However, the Toyota freebie expires in 3 years. There are very few H2 stations outside of California - only 17 other states have them, and those states have 10 stations or fewer. I guess that people drive a lot in southern California, but in 3 years, how readily could a person living in the LA area put 55,000 miles on a car that can't leave the state? As an aside, the current Mirai costs (IIRC) around $50k list. In March Toyota was offering a $20k rebate if you financed one through Toyota Credit. I suspect that they're already losing money on the car at $50k - and then they hand you $35k in subsidies. Automakers will take a loss on a car for a while to get it established in the market, but selling an FCEV at $15k??? That kind of heavy per-unit loss seems unsustainable in the long term. > How is hydrogen priced in what unit of quantity? It's sold by the kilogram. A search says that it costs $12.85/kg in Santa Monica and $16.63/kg in Long Beach. The Mirai has a 5kg capacity. The $85 cost for a fillup that I cited above would be for the more expensive Long Beach price. Another review said that the 5kg of hydrogen in the car was worth about 165kWh of raw energy. So if the car got 312 miles from that tank, that means it's using about 530 Wh/mile. Compared to the similar size Tesla Model S at 288 Wh/mile, the Mirai is using 46% more energy. That's not what I'd call outstanding efficiency. > How far will that unit take a Mirai? If the range is 312 miles, that's about 62 miles per kg. > Is this a subsidized price? I don't know. > What is the expected price over time? I can't answer that either. But I will say that the Mirai is an expensive car to drive without the Toyota fuel subsidy. Taking the cheaper price of $16.85/kg, $84 will take you 312 miles, for a cost of 27 cents per mile. An ICEV getting 35 mpg on gasoline that costs 4.39 per gallon (average CA price recently) would cost you about 12.5 cents per mile, less than half. However, the ICEV will have other maintenance costs that the FCEV might not. An EV charged at home that uses 300 Wh/mile at the CA average of 15.34 cents per kwh would cost 4.6 cents per mile to drive, a tad more than one-sixth the per-mile cost of the FCEV. Cost of use isn't the only factor of course - but most vehicle buyers will look at that in making a decision. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I am the one with no secrets. They [the Chinese government] have secrets. It is only because they have secrets that they can imagine everyone else having them too. -- Ai Weiwei = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] [GGEVA] Hydrogen Highway to nowhere!
Thank you for the text!! A couple of things caught my eye. 1.) " ...struggling to get the pump nozzle unfrozen from their fuel tank.". Is this a PV=NRT problem where a decrease in pressure is causing temperatures to drop causing condensation to freeze the nozzle? 2.) " The station was down — too hot. She had to wait three hours until it was cool enough to pump fuel..." What was the cause of this? LA is hot but Arizona, New Mexico, etc. are hotter for longer periods of time. 3.) Still using natural gas to create hydrogen. I have no problem with extracting natural gas from landfills, etc. and mixing it with natural gas from wells as long as the amounts used to convert to hydrogen are the same or lower than the natural gas amounts extracted from the landfills, etc. In all this is the underlying depletion of natural gas. Natural Gas is forecast to peak this century. A BP VP(?) said sometime around 2070 ** if demand stayed the same**. Demand has grown. This makes hydrogen production from natural gas something of a twilight technology. To me, natural gas is too much of a precious resource to be wasted on transportation or taking long hot showers. 4.) How far will $15,000 in "free fuel" take the Mirai? How is hydrogen priced in what unit of quantity? How far will that unit take a Mirai? Is this a subsidized price? What is the expected price over time? 5.) A number of the gripes above are "growing pains" to be worked on and solved. However, there are some fundamental issues that have to be addressed such as where the hydrogen comes from, how much the stations cost, the price of fuel, reduction in the use of high pressure tanks, etc. We sometimes look at these situations as a snapshot in time instead of the big picture over the long haul. I like to make lists of what needs to be solved or addressed. Sometimes all it takes is a breakthrough such as the Lithium Iron Phosphate battery to cause a "rush" from Lead Acid EVs to LiIon EVs. With HFCEVs, I see the need for several of those breakthroughs. On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 2:38 PM (-Phil-) via EV wrote: > > Paywalled Article. Here's the text: > > Soon after Maribel Munoz joined the trailblazing ranks of American owners > of hydrogen cars — a group that exists only in California — she began to > fear that the low price of the taxpayer-subsidized Toyota Mirai she > purchased came with a tremendous cost. “You can’t have a job and own this > car,” said the 49-year-old clothing designer from Azusa. “Finding fuel for > it becomes your job. It is constant anxiety. I told the guy at Toyota, ‘If > I have a stroke, it’s on you.’” Munoz found herself stranded with an empty > tank on the highway and stressed out by the repeated fuel shortages Mirai > drivers call “hydropocalypses.” She struggled not to scream at her phone > after driving miles to stations that a hydrogen fueling app said were > working just fine, only to find them out of order. These are the kind of > hassles that can come with being an early adopter. But in the case of > California’s \"Hydrogen Highway\" — a network of fueling stations then-Gov. > Arnold Schwarzenegger dreamed would lure masses of Americans to hydrogen > vehicles — even the most climate-conscious, tech-savvy motorists are > asking: What’s the point? The Hydrogen Highway was meant to stretch from > coast to coast. But after 17 years, it has yet to make it past the state > line. Environmentalists warn that the futuristic hydrogen fuel cell cars, > marketed as producing zero emissions, leave an inexcusably heavy carbon > footprint. The few automakers that have not backed away from the concept of > powering a passenger car by splitting off electrons from hydrogen ions are > struggling to persuade drivers that the vehicles are a reliable alternative > to zero-emission battery-powered ones. And other states that typically look > to California for climate-friendly transportation inspiration are taking a > pass. “It started as kind of a bad bet by the state,” said Ethan Elkind, > director of the climate program at UC Berkeley’s Center for Law, Energy and > the Environment. “Now it has become a legacy zombie technology.” California > can’t let go of Schwarzenegger's vision. In 2004, he famously got behind > the wheel of a clunky Hummer prototype that ran on hydrogen to signal that > drivers can have it all: the excess and convenience of a gas guzzler, with > none of the emissions. (It turned out that the hydrogen Hummer wasn’t so > climate-friendly and never made it to commercial production.) State > officials say the hydrogen experiment is merely experiencing the growing > pains of every transportation innovation California pushed into the > mainstream. The Biden administration is right there alongside California, > championing lucrative subsidies and demonstration projects aimed at making > hydrogen fuel an affordable and truly green alternative, one that it hopes > could complement the battery-powered electric vehicle
Re: [EVDL] [GGEVA] Hydrogen Highway to nowhere!
Not thiat it's terribly important, but I posted this same article yesterday. I didn't have to subscribe or pay to read it, maybe because I'm not in California. In any case, it's an interesting article, and it's refreshing to see a good light shone on BEVs for once. Some people dismiss "mainstream media" as biased, but while there are definitely some VERY biased media - and they tend to be unsettlingly popular - most reporters today are just plain lazy. Too many stories are essentially rewrites of previous published ones, supported by the same iffy numbers and the same quotations from the same "experts." When a reporter does get ambitious and really dig for a story, it risks being edited or rejected by a managment afraid of offending its advertisers. I thought that this was one of the better pieces I'd read, but that might be partly because I agree with it. :-) However, I wish that the reporters had elaborated on this statement: "It turned out that the hydrogen Hummer wasn´t so climate-friendly." I don't think it's just a Hummer, although they were grossly wasteful vehicles. It seems to me that hydrogen vehicles in general aren't very helpful in reducing carbon emissions as long as their fuel is made from natural gas, with or without purchased carbon credits. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Fertility is hereditary. If your parents didn't have any children, neither will you. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] [GGEVA] Hydrogen Highway to nowhere!
Paywalled Article. Here's the text: Soon after Maribel Munoz joined the trailblazing ranks of American owners of hydrogen cars — a group that exists only in California — she began to fear that the low price of the taxpayer-subsidized Toyota Mirai she purchased came with a tremendous cost. “You can’t have a job and own this car,” said the 49-year-old clothing designer from Azusa. “Finding fuel for it becomes your job. It is constant anxiety. I told the guy at Toyota, ‘If I have a stroke, it’s on you.’” Munoz found herself stranded with an empty tank on the highway and stressed out by the repeated fuel shortages Mirai drivers call “hydropocalypses.” She struggled not to scream at her phone after driving miles to stations that a hydrogen fueling app said were working just fine, only to find them out of order. These are the kind of hassles that can come with being an early adopter. But in the case of California’s \"Hydrogen Highway\" — a network of fueling stations then-Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger dreamed would lure masses of Americans to hydrogen vehicles — even the most climate-conscious, tech-savvy motorists are asking: What’s the point? The Hydrogen Highway was meant to stretch from coast to coast. But after 17 years, it has yet to make it past the state line. Environmentalists warn that the futuristic hydrogen fuel cell cars, marketed as producing zero emissions, leave an inexcusably heavy carbon footprint. The few automakers that have not backed away from the concept of powering a passenger car by splitting off electrons from hydrogen ions are struggling to persuade drivers that the vehicles are a reliable alternative to zero-emission battery-powered ones. And other states that typically look to California for climate-friendly transportation inspiration are taking a pass. “It started as kind of a bad bet by the state,” said Ethan Elkind, director of the climate program at UC Berkeley’s Center for Law, Energy and the Environment. “Now it has become a legacy zombie technology.” California can’t let go of Schwarzenegger's vision. In 2004, he famously got behind the wheel of a clunky Hummer prototype that ran on hydrogen to signal that drivers can have it all: the excess and convenience of a gas guzzler, with none of the emissions. (It turned out that the hydrogen Hummer wasn’t so climate-friendly and never made it to commercial production.) State officials say the hydrogen experiment is merely experiencing the growing pains of every transportation innovation California pushed into the mainstream. The Biden administration is right there alongside California, championing lucrative subsidies and demonstration projects aimed at making hydrogen fuel an affordable and truly green alternative, one that it hopes could complement the battery-powered electric vehicle market. “Ten years ago, people would have come to me and said, ‘Why is California supporting battery vehicles? There is hardly any market, and they will never be competitive,'” said Patty Monahan, a member of the California Energy Commission. Of course, battery electric vehicles are all the rage now. Monahan said the state’s aggressive push to get drivers into hydrogen cars is meant to help the technology rapidly scale up, to the point where large fleets of trucks running on diesel and aircraft powered by jet fuel could be retired in favor of cleaner-burning hydrogen models. Demonstration hydrogen trucks are operational at the Port of Los Angeles, and 48 hydrogen buses are being used by local transportation agencies. Hydrogen boosters note that the far more popular battery-powered cars are experiencing their own growing pains, as automakers and regulators confront supply-chain challenges and environmental questions complicating the push to rid the planet of climate-unfriendly internal combustion engines. The hydrogen cars can go 400 miles on a full tank, and they don't require waiting around for a battery to charge. Yet nearly two decades into the hydrogen experiment, it remains a uniquely expensive gambit. The state has spent $125 million to make its struggling network of 50 public hydrogen fueling stations operational. That network is still so shaky — with stations frequently malfunctioning or out of fuel — that Toyota provides free towing and car rental service to drivers who purchase a Mirai, as getting stranded is a constant risk. “It was a regular sight to see a car coming in on a flatbed when I went to get fuel,” said Scott Lerner, a writing instructor at UC Irvine who leased a Mirai until the hardship of hydrogen motoring got to be too much. “We would often have these commiserating circles at the station, where people would share horror stories.” The state is undeterred. At the end of last year, as Lerner was retiring his Mirai, the California Energy Commission was greenlighting an additional $169 million for fueling stations. The panel hopes to help open 111 more stations by 2027, plus 13 that can also service trucks and buses. That is a
