Re: [EVDL] Design News: General Motors Slashes Battery Wiring by 90 Percent
> This monitoring is done by more accurate sensors, which not only aids in > managing Ultium’s Nickel-Cobalt-Manganese-Aluminum cells but will provide the > precision necessary for the future, even more, finicky chemistries such as > lithium iron phosphate, Aquilano added. “Having the sensors you need for more > sustainable battery chemistries is important,” she said. > I didn't know LiFePO4 was more finicky. The pack I put together from 11-2009 TS LFP-100AHA cells is still going fine. There is only one cell pair which now has a noticeable decrease in capacity compared to the rest. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: General Motors Slashes Battery Wiring by 90 Percent
Well yeah, it could be a little or a lot. That’s why I asked. Alan seemed to think it was a downside worth noting, so maybe he knows. If it’s just a trivial amount, it’s not really a downside, and the criticism was unfair. - Mark Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > On Sep 24, 2020, at 9:19 PM, Lee Hart via EV wrote: > > Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote: >> How much extra energy does it require? 1%? 10%? 0.01%? > > Exactly. Who knows? Probably GM; but they didn't say. > > It could be a lot, or a little. It all depends on what they're using. If it's > something like wifi, it's a lot. If it's something like RFID, it's very > little. > > Most likely, they invented their own secret protocol. GM would see this as an > advantage; a way to prevent hobbyists or hackers from using GM's packs in > ways GM does not control or approve of. > > Lee Hart > > -- > A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is > nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. >-- Antoine de Saint Exupery > -- > Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com > ___ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html > INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: General Motors Slashes Battery Wiring by 90 Percent
Only way to find out is to sign an NDA with Analog Devices. *OR* buy some and see. I'm sure some white-hats will check this out. :) Cheers, Peter On 9/24/20 5:38 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote: How much extra energy does it require? 1%? 10%? 0.01%? - Mark Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone On Sep 24, 2020, at 5:33 PM, Alan Arrison via EV wrote: Sheesh, nothing like over-hyping. They conveniently don't mention any downside like extra energy needed for the wireless communication or possible interference to said communication. On 9/24/2020 9:49 AM, moskowitz via EV wrote: https://www.designnews.com/automotive-engineering/general-motors-slashes-battery-wiring-90-percent --- General Motors Slashes Battery Wiring by 90 Percent [Dan Carney](https://www.designnews.com/author/Dan-Carney)| Sep 10, 2020 As[General Motors Co](https://www.designnews.com/electronics-test/general-motors-sees-future-zero-crashes-zero-emissions-zero-congestion). gets closer to the[production launch of electric vehicles](https://www.designnews.com/automotive-engineering/cadillac-lyriq-reveals-new-details-gms-ultium-battery-technology)employing the company’s[next-generation Ultium batteries](https://www.designnews.com/automotive-engineering/cadillac-lyriq-reveals-new-details-gms-ultium-battery-technology), it is revealing additional technical details about these upcoming batteries. The latest revelation is GM’s partnership with Analog Devices, Inc., to incorporate a wireless battery management system into the Ultium battery packs. This solution not only eliminates 90 percent of the wiring in the packs, it also provides for increased efficiency and flexibility of those packs. Additionally, because eliminating wires in packs leaves more space inside for additional cells, it can create additional driving range. An important factor is that not only does the wiring occupy space, but its installation and connection is a manual process, and there has to be space provided for workers to do the installation, pointed out Analog Devices technical director for automotive, Gina Aquilano. “Thereis manual assembly where you have to leave room for someone to go in and make the connections,” she said. The ability to install additional cells in the same size battery pack is an example of “a tangible outcome for the end-user,” of the use of wireless management technology, Aquilano continued. Range also benefits because the wireless management system can better optimize the usage of individual cells, which also increases driving range. “Your pack is only as good as your weakest battery,” she observed. “This allows testing cells in more of an automated way for better matching.” This monitoring is done by more accurate sensors, which not only aids in managing Ultium’s Nickel-Cobalt-Manganese-Aluminum cells but will provide the precision necessary for the future, even more, finicky chemistries such as lithium iron phosphate, Aquilano added. “Having the sensors you need for more sustainable battery chemistries is important,” she said. As GM has described previously, having the intelligence built into each pack means that not only can future chemistries be managed using this same technology, but that those future packs will be backward compatible with today’s technology. That will let Ultium-powered EVs swap in more advanced batteries later if they need a battery replacement at some time in their lives. This modularity lets the packs be connected in series or parallel, in whatever number the application requires, from six to twenty-four packs, explained GM’s director for global battery cells and electrification, Tim Grewe. “That’s what this wireless tech enables,” he said. “You can do any voltage or parallel combination you want to do. There is no practical limitation on how many you can put in series or parallel.” The elimination of wiring from the management circuitry has another advantage: it isn’t subject to wiring failures. “One of the huge benefits is the fault management,” Grew explained. “On wired systems, a hard short is a big problem. A wireless system will reconfigure so it gets information from the unaffected nodes in the pack.” But doesn’t wired communication provide resistance to electromagnetic interference? “There’s a lot of [electromagnetic] noise out there,” Grewe acknowledged. “It jumps over to a frequency that doesn’t have the noise.” When Analog Devices proposed its wireless technology as a potential solution for GM, “we were very inquisitive about those same questions,” he recalled. “The nature of it is that you can switch frequencies,” Grewe said. “It provides avoidance capabilities that were surprising to me. It will just jump to a channel where the interference doesn’t exist.” Just as importantly, the system documents its adjustments, providing engineers a better understanding of the system’s performance. “It also gives you the reports along the way to say
Re: [EVDL] Design News: General Motors Slashes Battery Wiring by 90 Percent
Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote: How much extra energy does it require? 1%? 10%? 0.01%? Exactly. Who knows? Probably GM; but they didn't say. It could be a lot, or a little. It all depends on what they're using. If it's something like wifi, it's a lot. If it's something like RFID, it's very little. Most likely, they invented their own secret protocol. GM would see this as an advantage; a way to prevent hobbyists or hackers from using GM's packs in ways GM does not control or approve of. Lee Hart -- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: General Motors Slashes Battery Wiring by 90 Percent
How much extra energy does it require? 1%? 10%? 0.01%? - Mark Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > On Sep 24, 2020, at 5:33 PM, Alan Arrison via EV wrote: > > Sheesh, nothing like over-hyping. They conveniently don't mention any > downside like extra energy needed for the wireless communication or possible > interference to said communication. > > >> On 9/24/2020 9:49 AM, moskowitz via EV wrote: >> https://www.designnews.com/automotive-engineering/general-motors-slashes-battery-wiring-90-percent >> >> --- >> >> General Motors Slashes Battery Wiring by 90 Percent >> >> [Dan Carney](https://www.designnews.com/author/Dan-Carney)| Sep 10, 2020 >> >> As[General Motors >> Co](https://www.designnews.com/electronics-test/general-motors-sees-future-zero-crashes-zero-emissions-zero-congestion). >> gets closer to the[production launch of electric >> vehicles](https://www.designnews.com/automotive-engineering/cadillac-lyriq-reveals-new-details-gms-ultium-battery-technology)employing >> the company’s[next-generation Ultium >> batteries](https://www.designnews.com/automotive-engineering/cadillac-lyriq-reveals-new-details-gms-ultium-battery-technology), >> it is revealing additional technical details about these upcoming batteries. >> >> The latest revelation is GM’s partnership with Analog Devices, Inc., to >> incorporate a wireless battery management system into the Ultium battery >> packs. This solution not only eliminates 90 percent of the wiring in the >> packs, it also provides for increased efficiency and flexibility of those >> packs. >> >> Additionally, because eliminating wires in packs leaves more space inside >> for additional cells, it can create additional driving range. An important >> factor is that not only does the wiring occupy space, but its installation >> and connection is a manual process, and there has to be space provided for >> workers to do the installation, pointed out Analog Devices technical >> director for automotive, Gina Aquilano. “Thereis manual assembly where you >> have to leave room for someone to go in and make the connections,” she said. >> >> The ability to install additional cells in the same size battery pack is an >> example of “a tangible outcome for the end-user,” of the use of wireless >> management technology, Aquilano continued. >> >> Range also benefits because the wireless management system can better >> optimize the usage of individual cells, which also increases driving range. >> “Your pack is only as good as your weakest battery,” she observed. “This >> allows testing cells in more of an automated way for better matching.” >> >> This monitoring is done by more accurate sensors, which not only aids in >> managing Ultium’s Nickel-Cobalt-Manganese-Aluminum cells but will provide >> the precision necessary for the future, even more, finicky chemistries such >> as lithium iron phosphate, Aquilano added. “Having the sensors you need for >> more sustainable battery chemistries is important,” she said. >> >> As GM has described previously, having the intelligence built into each pack >> means that not only can future chemistries be managed using this same >> technology, but that those future packs will be backward compatible with >> today’s technology. That will let Ultium-powered EVs swap in more advanced >> batteries later if they need a battery replacement at some time in their >> lives. >> >> This modularity lets the packs be connected in series or parallel, in >> whatever number the application requires, from six to twenty-four packs, >> explained GM’s director for global battery cells and electrification, Tim >> Grewe. “That’s what this wireless tech enables,” he said. “You can do any >> voltage or parallel combination you want to do. There is no practical >> limitation on how many you can put in series or parallel.” >> >> The elimination of wiring from the management circuitry has another >> advantage: it isn’t subject to wiring failures. “One of the huge benefits is >> the fault management,” Grew explained. “On wired systems, a hard short is a >> big problem. A wireless system will reconfigure so it gets information from >> the unaffected nodes in the pack.” >> >> But doesn’t wired communication provide resistance to electromagnetic >> interference? “There’s a lot of [electromagnetic] noise out there,” Grewe >> acknowledged. “It jumps over to a frequency that doesn’t have the noise.” >> >> When Analog Devices proposed its wireless technology as a potential solution >> for GM, “we were very inquisitive about those same questions,” he recalled. >> “The nature of it is that you can switch frequencies,” Grewe said. “It >> provides avoidance capabilities that were surprising to me. It will just >> jump to a channel where the interference doesn’t exist.” >> >> Just as importantly, the system documents its adjustments, providing >> engineers a better understanding of the system’s performance. “It also
Re: [EVDL] Design News: General Motors Slashes Battery Wiring by 90 Percent
Sheesh, nothing like over-hyping. They conveniently don't mention any downside like extra energy needed for the wireless communication or possible interference to said communication. On 9/24/2020 9:49 AM, moskowitz via EV wrote: https://www.designnews.com/automotive-engineering/general-motors-slashes-battery-wiring-90-percent --- General Motors Slashes Battery Wiring by 90 Percent [Dan Carney](https://www.designnews.com/author/Dan-Carney)| Sep 10, 2020 As[General Motors Co](https://www.designnews.com/electronics-test/general-motors-sees-future-zero-crashes-zero-emissions-zero-congestion). gets closer to the[production launch of electric vehicles](https://www.designnews.com/automotive-engineering/cadillac-lyriq-reveals-new-details-gms-ultium-battery-technology)employing the company’s[next-generation Ultium batteries](https://www.designnews.com/automotive-engineering/cadillac-lyriq-reveals-new-details-gms-ultium-battery-technology), it is revealing additional technical details about these upcoming batteries. The latest revelation is GM’s partnership with Analog Devices, Inc., to incorporate a wireless battery management system into the Ultium battery packs. This solution not only eliminates 90 percent of the wiring in the packs, it also provides for increased efficiency and flexibility of those packs. Additionally, because eliminating wires in packs leaves more space inside for additional cells, it can create additional driving range. An important factor is that not only does the wiring occupy space, but its installation and connection is a manual process, and there has to be space provided for workers to do the installation, pointed out Analog Devices technical director for automotive, Gina Aquilano. “Thereis manual assembly where you have to leave room for someone to go in and make the connections,” she said. The ability to install additional cells in the same size battery pack is an example of “a tangible outcome for the end-user,” of the use of wireless management technology, Aquilano continued. Range also benefits because the wireless management system can better optimize the usage of individual cells, which also increases driving range. “Your pack is only as good as your weakest battery,” she observed. “This allows testing cells in more of an automated way for better matching.” This monitoring is done by more accurate sensors, which not only aids in managing Ultium’s Nickel-Cobalt-Manganese-Aluminum cells but will provide the precision necessary for the future, even more, finicky chemistries such as lithium iron phosphate, Aquilano added. “Having the sensors you need for more sustainable battery chemistries is important,” she said. As GM has described previously, having the intelligence built into each pack means that not only can future chemistries be managed using this same technology, but that those future packs will be backward compatible with today’s technology. That will let Ultium-powered EVs swap in more advanced batteries later if they need a battery replacement at some time in their lives. This modularity lets the packs be connected in series or parallel, in whatever number the application requires, from six to twenty-four packs, explained GM’s director for global battery cells and electrification, Tim Grewe. “That’s what this wireless tech enables,” he said. “You can do any voltage or parallel combination you want to do. There is no practical limitation on how many you can put in series or parallel.” The elimination of wiring from the management circuitry has another advantage: it isn’t subject to wiring failures. “One of the huge benefits is the fault management,” Grew explained. “On wired systems, a hard short is a big problem. A wireless system will reconfigure so it gets information from the unaffected nodes in the pack.” But doesn’t wired communication provide resistance to electromagnetic interference? “There’s a lot of [electromagnetic] noise out there,” Grewe acknowledged. “It jumps over to a frequency that doesn’t have the noise.” When Analog Devices proposed its wireless technology as a potential solution for GM, “we were very inquisitive about those same questions,” he recalled. “The nature of it is that you can switch frequencies,” Grewe said. “It provides avoidance capabilities that were surprising to me. It will just jump to a channel where the interference doesn’t exist.” Just as importantly, the system documents its adjustments, providing engineers a better understanding of the system’s performance. “It also gives you the reports along the way to say what happened,” he said. “It has really got a lot of capabilities that are fully validated per GM standards.” It was these capabilities in its SmartMesh IP wireless network products for industrial applications that led Analog Devices to mull steering the technology into battery management for vehicles, according to Aquilano. “It has five nines (99.999
