Re: [EVDL] EV taxing
On 15 Jun 2022 at 12:31, Bill Dube via EV wrote: > Don't tax fuel. Tax tires. That's an interesting idea. The US did at one time have an excise tax on tires. IIRC, it was first enacted to pay for costs of WW1 (or maybe WW2) and extended for some time after that. It was based on tire weight. I think, but I'm not 100% sure, that it expired in 2011. It may have been extended for certain classes of tires. > If you tax tires according to their load rating, and also perhaps by > their wear rating, you can properly tax vehicles on how much "road" they are > "using up." This is a good idea, IMO. It also helps to cover the public costs of particulate pollution from tires, something that isn't often considered. > There is a down side to this approach. Folks will not replace worn out > tires. I think this problem could be ameliorated by including the tax in the tire purchase price, rather than as a separate line item. Or impose the tax at the wholesale level. It would also help to phase it in over a period of years. > They will also buy the very cheapest tires possible. Unsafe incentive. Heck, a lot of folks already do that. Another downside of a tire tax is that it wouldn't be tied to the taxpayer's ability to pay. (Rich people usually don't consider that a downside.) But then neither is the fuel tax. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Most actors are deepfake combinations of prize hams. -- Dorothy Gambrell, "Cat and Girl" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/sub/index.html CONFIG: http://lists.evdl.org/options.cgi/ev-evdl.org ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] EV taxing
Don't tax fuel. Tax tires. If you tax tires according to their load rating, and also perhaps by their wear rating, you can properly tax vehicles on how much "road" they are "using up." There is a down side to this approach. Folks will not replace worn out tires. They will also buy the very cheapest tires possible. Unsafe incentive. Bill D. On 6/15/2022 11:13 AM, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote: By no means am I any sort of an expert on this, but I have been following some of the efforts by Oregon to replace/augment/make more equitable the road fuel tax structure, both for EV's and ICE's. One pilot program was based on annual mileage. The shake-down at the end of the program was that it was unfeasible due to several problems. 1) Reporting of mileage would be an honorary task for owners of older cars that didn't have integrated GPS systems. Add-on GPS devices could be purchased and installed, but the up-front costs didn't appeal to potential participants. I believe that smart phones were proposed as a solution, but... (see #2, below) 2) There was a lot of push-back from drivers who feared that the GPS devices, either integrated in the car's navigation system, or the add-on/phone app, would be used for tracking and potential privacy invasion. 3) There was no reliable way that any GPS could accurately determine if the car was being operated on a public highway or private property. Obviously, if you are racking up miles on Interstate 5, that's beyond question, but what about those fractions of miles that add up off the public streets? My driveway is 1/3 mile long, am I going to have to apply for an exemption for the .6 miles that I drive on my own property each time I go to town? 4) The state doesn't necessarily get 100% of road fuel tax dollars. Some of it goes to the counties where the fuel was purchased, and there are city municipalities that add a local fuel tax on top of the fed and state taxes. The GPS can give a rough picture of where you did your driving, but when it comes down to fractions of a cent times multi-millions of miles, accuracy is demanded. Cities that enjoy a tax base generated by gas purchase would be losing some of that revenue to out-of-town use of the same fuel purchase. 5) The program did nothing to tax itinerant users of roads, tourists, truckers, etc. who don't report mileage to OR. At least the current system catches some of them at a fuel pump before they cross out of the borders. The only halfway effective way to get road maintenance money out of drivers, is to convert all major thoroughfares to toll roads. Imagine how popular that would be. Still, if there was a drive-on scale at the toll booth, weight could be factored into the toll for a more accurate compensation of road wear. Add detectors for studded tires, and they might be able to make enough easy money to leave us poor EV'sters alone. Overall, anything much beyond an at-the-pump, per-gallon-fee will be creating a storm of additional accounting and record keeping. My electric bicycle looks better al the time. ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/sub/index.html CONFIG: http://lists.evdl.org/options.cgi/ev-evdl.org ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/sub/index.html CONFIG: http://lists.evdl.org/options.cgi/ev-evdl.org ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] EV taxing
On 14 Jun 2022 at 21:15, fred via EV wrote: > If an entity has to modify the registration system to accept a specific fee > for an EV, the modification should be based on previous year's travels via > odometer reading. It's hardly difficult to provide such information during > registration, no more so than providing insurance verification as is currently > done. The problem is that with the current highly legalistic control-freak trends everywhere, your word wouldn't be enough. The registrars would insist on independent verification. That could mean required inspection (yet more bureaucracy), but it would be more likely to mean intrusive electronic monitoring systems that reported where and how much you drove. Oh, wait, what am I saying? We already have that. It's called "vehicle telematics." These systems connect to the mobile phone network and phone home to your vehicle's manufacturer, telling them where you've gone, how fast you drove, how hard you accelerated and braked, how many people were in the vehicle, what doors were opened and closed when, and on and on. Of course it's totally secure, right? Right? There's no possible way that such personal data can be abused, right? Right? If you're not doing anything wrong, then you have nothing to hide, right? Right? To bring this rant back on topic: Sorry, but no. No efficient vehicle fees, regardless of what basis is used to compute them. No more efficient vehicle fees passed, and the existing ones rescinded. No fees to make up for state fuel tax revenue allegedly lost to EVs and high- MPG ICEVs. That's stupid and short-sighted. EV and high-efficiency ICEV owners are SAVING public tax money. They produce less pollution and less noise. They improve general public health and life quality. They reduce maintenance costs for public buildings. They contribute less to climate change. EV and high-efficiency-vehicle owners are doing PUBLIC GOOD. They should be financially rewarded for it. Instead they're punished. France (as mentioned earlier) charges a registration *surtax* on heavy vehicles - 10 euros per kg over 1800. Meanwhile, here in the US, the IRS gives businesses up to $25,000 in tax *credits* for purchasing vehicles over 6,000lb. We should be fighting these backward priorities, not cooperating with them.. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = If you aren't sure whether you can do this, just try it. The worst thing that can happen is that your computer could explode. -- GIMP Documentation = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/sub/index.html CONFIG: http://lists.evdl.org/options.cgi/ev-evdl.org ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] EV taxing
By no means am I any sort of an expert on this, but I have been following some of the efforts by Oregon to replace/augment/make more equitable the road fuel tax structure, both for EV's and ICE's. One pilot program was based on annual mileage. The shake-down at the end of the program was that it was unfeasible due to several problems. 1) Reporting of mileage would be an honorary task for owners of older cars that didn't have integrated GPS systems. Add-on GPS devices could be purchased and installed, but the up-front costs didn't appeal to potential participants. I believe that smart phones were proposed as a solution, but... (see #2, below) 2) There was a lot of push-back from drivers who feared that the GPS devices, either integrated in the car's navigation system, or the add-on/phone app, would be used for tracking and potential privacy invasion. 3) There was no reliable way that any GPS could accurately determine if the car was being operated on a public highway or private property. Obviously, if you are racking up miles on Interstate 5, that's beyond question, but what about those fractions of miles that add up off the public streets? My driveway is 1/3 mile long, am I going to have to apply for an exemption for the .6 miles that I drive on my own property each time I go to town? 4) The state doesn't necessarily get 100% of road fuel tax dollars. Some of it goes to the counties where the fuel was purchased, and there are city municipalities that add a local fuel tax on top of the fed and state taxes. The GPS can give a rough picture of where you did your driving, but when it comes down to fractions of a cent times multi-millions of miles, accuracy is demanded. Cities that enjoy a tax base generated by gas purchase would be losing some of that revenue to out-of-town use of the same fuel purchase. 5) The program did nothing to tax itinerant users of roads, tourists, truckers, etc. who don't report mileage to OR. At least the current system catches some of them at a fuel pump before they cross out of the borders. The only halfway effective way to get road maintenance money out of drivers, is to convert all major thoroughfares to toll roads. Imagine how popular that would be. Still, if there was a drive-on scale at the toll booth, weight could be factored into the toll for a more accurate compensation of road wear. Add detectors for studded tires, and they might be able to make enough easy money to leave us poor EV'sters alone. Overall, anything much beyond an at-the-pump, per-gallon-fee will be creating a storm of additional accounting and record keeping. My electric bicycle looks better al the time. ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/sub/index.html CONFIG: http://lists.evdl.org/options.cgi/ev-evdl.org ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
