Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Ultra-capacitor_li-ion hybrid> crazy-fast 20s charging

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

The surface area of li-ion electrodes are already on the next level. Only
the mechanical design of cells and specifically the current collectors are
slowing us down in the development. That'll pass soon. We rather avoid
foils as current collectors. So 1990's.

We did not understand even 5 years ago how cheaply we can create new Carbon
structures such as Graphene. Also solid electrolytes are giving us a
completely new way to build cells (PLD for example) and I dare to
expect +100C li-ion cells in various applications at that $100/kWh level
which Elon mentioned. Eventually we'll be at +50 years usable lifetime,
<$50/kWh and probably 50TWh annual production capacity. That'll take long
time for sure. Definitely we'll be there not earlier than maybe 2025.

So we'll have very cheap, powerful and durable li-ion cells in not so
distant future. Those same cells will be used in the grid side to buffer
any power requirement and provide digital inertia for maybe week or two. So
no worries about the grid issues.

Even today we can build 350kW fast charger power electronics with about
$10/kW from battery to battery. So there is no huge cost to even enable
these kind of super fast chargers but I think the main question is do we
really need them?

-Jukka


ke 13. kesäk. 2018 klo 13.56 EVDL Administrator via EV (ev@lists.evdl.org)
kirjoitti:

> On 12 Jun 2018 at 22:21, brucedp5 via EV wrote:
>
> > A hybrid lithium/carbon battery system could offer the best of both
> worlds "
> > long-range continuous driving and long-term power storage thanks to the
> > lithium unit, plus ultra-fast partial charging and extreme power output
> thanks
> > to the ultra-capacitor.
>
> Back in 2001 Solectria (RIP) built an experimental EV using a Maxwell
> supercapacitor bank to manage peak driving current and regen.  They ran it
> through a customized DC:DC talking to the controller over the Canbus, and
> claimed a 32% increase in range.
>
> It was just an experiment, though.  Production EVs are expensive already,
> and something like that would be tough to do in an affordable vehicle.
>
> > "Most of the energy in regenerative braking is lost as heat, maybe 80
> > percent," says Grape. "Perhaps 20 percent is recouped ... "
>
> Yeah, right.  That must be why Axel Krause's trip over the Alps over 20
> years ago resulted in almost the same energy consumption he would have had
> if he'd driven the same distance in flat terrain.
>
> http://www.evdl.org/pages/evergreen.html
>
> > The electric motors are very efficient at generating that power, but
> > the battery just can't accept the charge rate.
>
> Good grief, how hard is he braking?
>
> Every battery I know of can accept regen or charging current at about the
> same rate it can deliver driving current, as long as the battery isn't
> over
> 80% SOC.
>
> > Imagine simply driving your car over a surface at a charge station,
> > paying for a top-up and driving away 10-20 seconds later.
>
> Now imagine how much power that would require from the mains.
>
> Who, me?  Skeptical?
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Ultra-capacitor_li-ion hybrid> crazy-fast 20s charging

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 13 Jun 2018 at 6:58, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

> Back in 2001 Solectria (RIP) built an experimental EV using a Maxwell 
> supercapacitor bank to manage peak driving current and regen.

PS - here's a paper reporting on the experiment.

http://www.evdl.org/docs/supercap_leveler.pdf

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Ultra-capacitor_li-ion hybrid> crazy-fast 20s charging

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 12 Jun 2018 at 22:21, brucedp5 via EV wrote:

> A hybrid lithium/carbon battery system could offer the best of both worlds "
> long-range continuous driving and long-term power storage thanks to the
> lithium unit, plus ultra-fast partial charging and extreme power output thanks
> to the ultra-capacitor.

Back in 2001 Solectria (RIP) built an experimental EV using a Maxwell 
supercapacitor bank to manage peak driving current and regen.  They ran it 
through a customized DC:DC talking to the controller over the Canbus, and 
claimed a 32% increase in range.  

It was just an experiment, though.  Production EVs are expensive already, 
and something like that would be tough to do in an affordable vehicle.

> "Most of the energy in regenerative braking is lost as heat, maybe 80
> percent," says Grape. "Perhaps 20 percent is recouped ... "

Yeah, right.  That must be why Axel Krause's trip over the Alps over 20 
years ago resulted in almost the same energy consumption he would have had 
if he'd driven the same distance in flat terrain.  

http://www.evdl.org/pages/evergreen.html

> The electric motors are very efficient at generating that power, but
> the battery just can't accept the charge rate. 

Good grief, how hard is he braking?

Every battery I know of can accept regen or charging current at about the 
same rate it can deliver driving current, as long as the battery isn't over 
80% SOC.

> Imagine simply driving your car over a surface at a charge station,
> paying for a top-up and driving away 10-20 seconds later.  

Now imagine how much power that would require from the mains.

Who, me?  Skeptical?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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