Re: [EVDL] Lead battery recycling, Not 98% (was: Delivery truck)
Let me add that the percentage of recycled batteries is not the big problem, but those that ARE recycled. As you say, much gets recycled in other countries where there are weak laws, and lots of emissions. But even if you look in this country, the requirements are still weak enough to cause major problems in nearby communities. For example, even in "tough" Southern California, Exide was allowed to continue contaminating the nearby community for years, creating what may be an urban "Love Canal". Properties surrounding the facility for quite a distance are contaminated. Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 24, 2018, at 7:07 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV > wrote: > >> On 24 Jan 2018 at 0:20, Bill Dube via EV wrote: >> >> Basically, at _least_ 35% of all lead-acid batteries are _not_ being >> recycled. > > Bill, sorry, but I think this is too simplistic. For this analysis to apply, > you'd have to assume that essentially every lead battery manufactured > replaces an existing lead battery. Obviously that's not the case, so of > course some newly mined lead has to enter the manufacturing stream. > > To name only one reason, each year the vehicle population worldwide > increases about 3.5 percent. The vast majority is ICEVs, but almost every > one of them has a lead battery. > > At the same time, the 98 percent figure has always struck me as implausible. > I've seen too many explicit counter-examples, such as the coast guard > workers I read about who (at least used to) regularly tip spent buoy > batteries into the deep so they wouldn't have to haul them back to port. > > Do you work in an office? In the years I worked in a place that had a UPS > at every computer workstation, the number of batteries I rescued from the > trash and took home to my own recycling pile numbered in the dozens. I'm > sure I probably missed the majority of them. > > It's also shocking to read the harrowing accounts of third-world battery > recycling. Apparently it's cheaper to export some batteries and other > recyclables to low-wage countries for dismantling. In many cases these > nations have weak or nonexistent environmental laws, or the laws can be > bypassed with a small cash payment. Thousands of dirt-poor people work in > these gigantic festering scrap piles, with no protective gear, poisoning > themselves and their air, water, and ground day after day. How is this > accounted for? Do we ignore it because they're lead-polluting some other > country, not ours? And shouldn't we consider the impact of shipping the > batteries over, and the reclaimed materials back? > > Sure, there's a well developed recyling infrastructure for lead batteries, > and thank goodness for it. But what are the consequences for not using it? > Nobody is checking your trash. In the end it's down to individual > responsibility. Good luck finding much of that, outside of folks on this > list. > > I've seen this 98 percent battery recycling figure many times over the > years. While (as the song says) data is not the plural of anecdote, my own > observations, reading, and experience make me skeptical about it. > > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA > EVDL Administrator > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not > reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my > email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > > ___ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lead battery recycling, Not 98% (was: Delivery truck)
98% recyclable, not 98% recycled. On 24 January 2018 at 15:07, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote: > On 24 Jan 2018 at 0:20, Bill Dube via EV wrote: > >> Basically, at _least_ 35% of all lead-acid batteries are _not_ being >> recycled. > > Bill, sorry, but I think this is too simplistic. For this analysis to apply, > you'd have to assume that essentially every lead battery manufactured > replaces an existing lead battery. Obviously that's not the case, so of > course some newly mined lead has to enter the manufacturing stream. > > To name only one reason, each year the vehicle population worldwide > increases about 3.5 percent. The vast majority is ICEVs, but almost every > one of them has a lead battery. > > At the same time, the 98 percent figure has always struck me as implausible. > I've seen too many explicit counter-examples, such as the coast guard > workers I read about who (at least used to) regularly tip spent buoy > batteries into the deep so they wouldn't have to haul them back to port. > > Do you work in an office? In the years I worked in a place that had a UPS > at every computer workstation, the number of batteries I rescued from the > trash and took home to my own recycling pile numbered in the dozens. I'm > sure I probably missed the majority of them. > > It's also shocking to read the harrowing accounts of third-world battery > recycling. Apparently it's cheaper to export some batteries and other > recyclables to low-wage countries for dismantling. In many cases these > nations have weak or nonexistent environmental laws, or the laws can be > bypassed with a small cash payment. Thousands of dirt-poor people work in > these gigantic festering scrap piles, with no protective gear, poisoning > themselves and their air, water, and ground day after day. How is this > accounted for? Do we ignore it because they're lead-polluting some other > country, not ours? And shouldn't we consider the impact of shipping the > batteries over, and the reclaimed materials back? > > Sure, there's a well developed recyling infrastructure for lead batteries, > and thank goodness for it. But what are the consequences for not using it? > Nobody is checking your trash. In the end it's down to individual > responsibility. Good luck finding much of that, outside of folks on this > list. > > I've seen this 98 percent battery recycling figure many times over the > years. While (as the song says) data is not the plural of anecdote, my own > observations, reading, and experience make me skeptical about it. > > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA > EVDL Administrator > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not > reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my > email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > > ___ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > -- Paul Compton www.morini-mania.co.uk www.paulcompton.co.uk (YouTube channel) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lead battery recycling, Not 98%
Lee Hart wrote: > Upwards of 98% of the lead is recycled into new batteries. Bill Dube via EV wrote: Basically, at _least_ 35% of all lead-acid batteries are _not_ being recycled. EVDL Administrator via EV wrote: I've seen this 98 percent battery recycling figure many times over the years. While (as the song says) data is not the plural of anecdote, my own observations, reading, and experience make me skeptical about it. The problem here (as in politics) lies in using extreme cases as if they represent the middle. For the 98% figure, I was thinking of what happens to normal lead-acid vehicle batteries; especially EV batteries in the US. They are large and expensive, and the cash value of a scrap battery is substantial. There are also laws that require recycling them. So almost all of these lead-acid batteries *do* get returned for recycling. I don't know if it's really 98%; but it's certainly very high. But then there's the question of who does the reprocessing? If these batteries are reprocessed in the US, environmental laws mean that very little lead will be lost to the environment. But for facilities outside the US, all bets are off. There are plenty of horrible examples of how *not* to do it. (They probably BURN old batteries for heat in Lower Slobovia!) I don't know the percentages of old batteries that get rebuilt in the US, versus what get sent to third world countries where laws are lax or nonexistent. It's important to base our actions on fact; not alarmist extremes. Recycling *works* for lead-acid batteries. It's a model that should be followed for other battery types as well. It is faulty logic to say that since *some* lead-acid batteries are not recycled, there is no point in recycling programs at all; just ban lead outright instead. With the growing use of other battery chemistries for EVs, it is important to set up *more* recycling standards to cover them as well. Right now, it is much harder to recycle nimh and lithium packs, making it more likely that they will wind up in landfills. -- It is vanity to do with more that which can be done with less. -- William of Ockham -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lead battery recycling, Not 98% (was: Delivery truck)
On 24 Jan 2018 at 0:20, Bill Dube via EV wrote: > Basically, at _least_ 35% of all lead-acid batteries are _not_ being > recycled. Bill, sorry, but I think this is too simplistic. For this analysis to apply, you'd have to assume that essentially every lead battery manufactured replaces an existing lead battery. Obviously that's not the case, so of course some newly mined lead has to enter the manufacturing stream. To name only one reason, each year the vehicle population worldwide increases about 3.5 percent. The vast majority is ICEVs, but almost every one of them has a lead battery. At the same time, the 98 percent figure has always struck me as implausible. I've seen too many explicit counter-examples, such as the coast guard workers I read about who (at least used to) regularly tip spent buoy batteries into the deep so they wouldn't have to haul them back to port. Do you work in an office? In the years I worked in a place that had a UPS at every computer workstation, the number of batteries I rescued from the trash and took home to my own recycling pile numbered in the dozens. I'm sure I probably missed the majority of them. It's also shocking to read the harrowing accounts of third-world battery recycling. Apparently it's cheaper to export some batteries and other recyclables to low-wage countries for dismantling. In many cases these nations have weak or nonexistent environmental laws, or the laws can be bypassed with a small cash payment. Thousands of dirt-poor people work in these gigantic festering scrap piles, with no protective gear, poisoning themselves and their air, water, and ground day after day. How is this accounted for? Do we ignore it because they're lead-polluting some other country, not ours? And shouldn't we consider the impact of shipping the batteries over, and the reclaimed materials back? Sure, there's a well developed recyling infrastructure for lead batteries, and thank goodness for it. But what are the consequences for not using it? Nobody is checking your trash. In the end it's down to individual responsibility. Good luck finding much of that, outside of folks on this list. I've seen this 98 percent battery recycling figure many times over the years. While (as the song says) data is not the plural of anecdote, my own observations, reading, and experience make me skeptical about it. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
