Re: [EVDL] Lead battery recycling, Not 98% (was: Delivery truck)

2018-01-24 Thread Mark Abramowitz via EV
Let me add that the percentage of recycled batteries is not the big problem, 
but those that ARE recycled.

As you say, much gets recycled in other countries where there are weak laws, 
and lots of emissions. 

But even if you look in this country, the requirements are still weak enough to 
cause major problems in nearby communities.

For example, even in "tough" Southern California, Exide was allowed to continue 
contaminating the nearby community for years, creating what may be an urban 
"Love Canal". Properties surrounding the facility for quite a distance are 
contaminated.



Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 24, 2018, at 7:07 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
>> On 24 Jan 2018 at 0:20, Bill Dube via EV wrote:
>> 
>> Basically, at _least_ 35% of all lead-acid batteries are _not_ being 
>> recycled.
> 
> Bill, sorry, but I think this is too simplistic. For this analysis to apply, 
> you'd have to assume that essentially every lead battery manufactured 
> replaces an existing lead battery.  Obviously that's not the case, so of 
> course some newly mined lead has to enter the manufacturing stream.  
> 
> To name only one reason, each year the vehicle population worldwide 
> increases about 3.5 percent.  The vast majority is ICEVs, but almost every 
> one of them has a lead battery.
> 
> At the same time, the 98 percent figure has always struck me as implausible. 
> I've seen too many explicit counter-examples, such as the coast guard 
> workers I read about who (at least used to) regularly tip spent buoy 
> batteries into the deep so they wouldn't have to haul them back to port.
> 
> Do you work in an office?  In the years I worked in a place that had a UPS 
> at every computer workstation, the number of batteries I rescued from the 
> trash and took home to my own recycling pile numbered in the dozens.  I'm 
> sure I probably missed the majority of them.
> 
> It's also shocking to read the harrowing accounts of third-world battery 
> recycling. Apparently it's cheaper to export some batteries and other 
> recyclables to low-wage countries for dismantling.  In many cases these 
> nations have weak or nonexistent environmental laws, or the laws can be 
> bypassed with a small cash payment.  Thousands of dirt-poor people work in 
> these gigantic festering scrap piles, with no protective gear, poisoning 
> themselves and their air, water, and ground day after day.  How is this 
> accounted for?  Do we ignore it because they're lead-polluting some other 
> country, not ours?  And shouldn't we consider the impact of shipping the 
> batteries over, and the reclaimed materials back? 
> 
> Sure, there's a well developed recyling infrastructure for lead batteries, 
> and thank goodness for it.  But what are the consequences for not using it?  
> Nobody is checking your trash.  In the end it's down to individual 
> responsibility.  Good luck finding much of that,  outside of folks on this 
> list.  
> 
> I've seen this 98 percent battery recycling figure many times over the 
> years. While (as the song says) data is not the plural of anecdote, my own 
> observations, reading, and experience make me skeptical about it.
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Lead battery recycling, Not 98% (was: Delivery truck)

2018-01-24 Thread Paul Compton via EV
98% recyclable, not 98% recycled.

On 24 January 2018 at 15:07, EVDL Administrator via EV
 wrote:
> On 24 Jan 2018 at 0:20, Bill Dube via EV wrote:
>
>> Basically, at _least_ 35% of all lead-acid batteries are _not_ being
>> recycled.
>
> Bill, sorry, but I think this is too simplistic. For this analysis to apply,
> you'd have to assume that essentially every lead battery manufactured
> replaces an existing lead battery.  Obviously that's not the case, so of
> course some newly mined lead has to enter the manufacturing stream.
>
> To name only one reason, each year the vehicle population worldwide
> increases about 3.5 percent.  The vast majority is ICEVs, but almost every
> one of them has a lead battery.
>
> At the same time, the 98 percent figure has always struck me as implausible.
> I've seen too many explicit counter-examples, such as the coast guard
> workers I read about who (at least used to) regularly tip spent buoy
> batteries into the deep so they wouldn't have to haul them back to port.
>
> Do you work in an office?  In the years I worked in a place that had a UPS
> at every computer workstation, the number of batteries I rescued from the
> trash and took home to my own recycling pile numbered in the dozens.  I'm
> sure I probably missed the majority of them.
>
> It's also shocking to read the harrowing accounts of third-world battery
> recycling. Apparently it's cheaper to export some batteries and other
> recyclables to low-wage countries for dismantling.  In many cases these
> nations have weak or nonexistent environmental laws, or the laws can be
> bypassed with a small cash payment.  Thousands of dirt-poor people work in
> these gigantic festering scrap piles, with no protective gear, poisoning
> themselves and their air, water, and ground day after day.  How is this
> accounted for?  Do we ignore it because they're lead-polluting some other
> country, not ours?  And shouldn't we consider the impact of shipping the
> batteries over, and the reclaimed materials back?
>
> Sure, there's a well developed recyling infrastructure for lead batteries,
> and thank goodness for it.  But what are the consequences for not using it?
> Nobody is checking your trash.  In the end it's down to individual
> responsibility.  Good luck finding much of that,  outside of folks on this
> list.
>
> I've seen this 98 percent battery recycling figure many times over the
> years. While (as the song says) data is not the plural of anecdote, my own
> observations, reading, and experience make me skeptical about it.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
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-- 
Paul Compton
www.morini-mania.co.uk
www.paulcompton.co.uk (YouTube channel)
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Re: [EVDL] Lead battery recycling, Not 98%

2018-01-24 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Lee Hart wrote:
> Upwards of 98% of the lead is recycled into new batteries.

Bill Dube via EV wrote:

Basically, at _least_ 35% of all lead-acid batteries are _not_ being
recycled.


EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

I've seen this 98 percent battery recycling figure many times over the
years. While (as the song says) data is not the plural of anecdote, my own
observations, reading, and experience make me skeptical about it.


The problem here (as in politics) lies in using extreme cases as if they 
represent the middle.


For the 98% figure, I was thinking of what happens to normal lead-acid 
vehicle batteries; especially EV batteries in the US. They are large and 
expensive, and the cash value of a scrap battery is substantial. There 
are also laws that require recycling them. So almost all of these 
lead-acid batteries *do* get returned for recycling. I don't know if 
it's really 98%; but it's certainly very high.


But then there's the question of who does the reprocessing? If these 
batteries are reprocessed in the US, environmental laws mean that very 
little lead will be lost to the environment. But for facilities outside 
the US, all bets are off. There are plenty of horrible examples of how 
*not* to do it. (They probably BURN old batteries for heat in Lower 
Slobovia!)


I don't know the percentages of old batteries that get rebuilt in the 
US, versus what get sent to third world countries where laws are lax or 
nonexistent.


It's important to base our actions on fact; not alarmist extremes. 
Recycling *works* for lead-acid batteries. It's a model that should be 
followed for other battery types as well. It is faulty logic to say that 
since *some* lead-acid batteries are not recycled, there is no point in 
recycling programs at all; just ban lead outright instead.


With the growing use of other battery chemistries for EVs, it is 
important to set up *more* recycling standards to cover them as well. 
Right now, it is much harder to recycle nimh and lithium packs, making 
it more likely that they will wind up in landfills.


--
It is vanity to do with more that which can be done with less.
-- William of Ockham
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Lead battery recycling, Not 98% (was: Delivery truck)

2018-01-24 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV
On 24 Jan 2018 at 0:20, Bill Dube via EV wrote:

> Basically, at _least_ 35% of all lead-acid batteries are _not_ being 
> recycled.

Bill, sorry, but I think this is too simplistic. For this analysis to apply, 
you'd have to assume that essentially every lead battery manufactured 
replaces an existing lead battery.  Obviously that's not the case, so of 
course some newly mined lead has to enter the manufacturing stream.  

To name only one reason, each year the vehicle population worldwide 
increases about 3.5 percent.  The vast majority is ICEVs, but almost every 
one of them has a lead battery.

At the same time, the 98 percent figure has always struck me as implausible. 
I've seen too many explicit counter-examples, such as the coast guard 
workers I read about who (at least used to) regularly tip spent buoy 
batteries into the deep so they wouldn't have to haul them back to port.

Do you work in an office?  In the years I worked in a place that had a UPS 
at every computer workstation, the number of batteries I rescued from the 
trash and took home to my own recycling pile numbered in the dozens.  I'm 
sure I probably missed the majority of them.

It's also shocking to read the harrowing accounts of third-world battery 
recycling. Apparently it's cheaper to export some batteries and other 
recyclables to low-wage countries for dismantling.  In many cases these 
nations have weak or nonexistent environmental laws, or the laws can be 
bypassed with a small cash payment.  Thousands of dirt-poor people work in 
these gigantic festering scrap piles, with no protective gear, poisoning 
themselves and their air, water, and ground day after day.  How is this 
accounted for?  Do we ignore it because they're lead-polluting some other 
country, not ours?  And shouldn't we consider the impact of shipping the 
batteries over, and the reclaimed materials back? 

Sure, there's a well developed recyling infrastructure for lead batteries, 
and thank goodness for it.  But what are the consequences for not using it?  
Nobody is checking your trash.  In the end it's down to individual 
responsibility.  Good luck finding much of that,  outside of folks on this 
list.  

I've seen this 98 percent battery recycling figure many times over the 
years. While (as the song says) data is not the plural of anecdote, my own 
observations, reading, and experience make me skeptical about it.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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