Re: [Evergreen] lots of systemd log messages when starting up and stopping user sessions
On 2016-05-20 08:17, Per Jessen wrote: > Carlos E. R. wrote: > >> On Wednesday, 2016-05-18 at 14:18 +0200, Per Jessen wrote: >>> Per Jessen wrote: >>> I though I would be able to reduce this by adding "Loglevel=notify" to /etc/systemd/user.conf, but: systemd[2034]: [/etc/systemd/user.conf:11] Invalid log level'notify': Operation not permitted >>> >>> Loglevel=notice does the trick. >> >> It doesn't do much here. I was getting this block, many times: >> > > It filtered out quite a few of them. All of these > are gone: > > 2016-05-01T00:15:02+02:00 office20 systemd[16144]: Starting Paths. > 2016-05-01T00:15:02+02:00 office20 systemd[16144]: Reached target Paths. > 2016-05-01T00:15:02+02:00 office20 systemd[16144]: Starting Timers. > 2016-05-01T00:15:02+02:00 office20 systemd[16144]: Reached target Timers. > 2016-05-01T00:15:02+02:00 office20 systemd[16144]: Starting Sockets. > 2016-05-01T00:15:02+02:00 office20 systemd[16144]: Reached target Sockets. > 2016-05-01T00:15:02+02:00 office20 systemd[16144]: Starting Basic System. > 2016-05-01T00:15:02+02:00 office20 systemd[16144]: Reached target Basic > System. > 2016-05-01T00:15:02+02:00 office20 systemd[16144]: Starting Default. > 2016-05-01T00:15:02+02:00 office20 systemd[16144]: Reached target Default. > 2016-05-01T00:15:02+02:00 office20 systemd[16144]: Startup finished in 36ms. > > Instead of some 40 messages, I see 8 or 9, an 80% reduction :-) > > 2016-05-19T22:17:01+02:00 sogo systemd[1]: Starting user-1000.slice. > 2016-05-19T22:17:01+02:00 sogo systemd[1]: Created slice user-1000.slice. > 2016-05-19T22:17:01+02:00 sogo systemd[1]: Starting User Manager for UID > 1000... > 2016-05-19T22:17:01+02:00 sogo systemd[1]: Started User Manager for UID 1000. > 2016-05-20T02:08:15+02:00 sogo systemd[1]: Stopping User Manager for UID > 1000... > 2016-05-20T02:08:15+02:00 sogo systemd[1]: Stopped User Manager for UID 1000. > 2016-05-20T02:08:15+02:00 sogo systemd[1]: Stopping user-1000.slice. > 2016-05-20T02:08:15+02:00 sogo systemd[1]: Removed slice user-1000.slice. I have this in rsyslog if (($programname == 'systemd') and ( \ (($msg contains 'Started Session') and ($msg contains 'of user')) \ or ($msg contains 'Starting Session') and (($msg contains 'of user news.') or ($msg contains 'of user wwwrun.') or ($msg contains 'of user cer.') or ($msg contains 'of user root.')) \ )) \ then-/var/log/pruned & stop and if ( $programname == 'systemd' and (\ ( \ ( $msg contains 'Starting' or $msg contains 'Started' or $msg contains 'Stopping' or $msg contains 'Stopped' ) \ and ($msg contains 'User Manager for UID' and ($msg contains '30' or $msg contains '0') ) \ ) \ or ( \ ( $msg contains 'Stopping' or $msg contains 'Removed slice' or $msg contains 'Starting' or $msg contains 'Created slice' ) \ and ($msg contains 'user-30.slice' or $msg contains 'user-0.slice') \ ) \ )) \ then-/var/log/pruned & stop and if ($programname startswith 'org.gtk.' and $msg contains '### debug:') or ($programname startswith 'org.gtk.vfs.Daemon') or ($programname startswith 'org.freedesktop.Tracker or ($programname startswith 'org.gnome.evince.Daemon' and ($msg contains 'egisterDocument' or $msg contains 'Watch name')) \ or ($programname startswith 'org.gnome.zeitgeist.Engine') \ or ($programname startswith 'org.xfce.FileManager' and ($msg contains 'fixme:' )) \ or ($programname == 'systemd' and ($msg contains 'Failed to open private bus connection: Failed to connect to socket' ))\ or ($programname startswith 'org.freedesktop.thumbnails.Thumbnailer') \ or ($programname startswith 'org.gnome.zeitgeist.SimpleIndexer')\ or ($programname startswith 'org.a11y.Bus') \ or ($programname startswith 'org.a11y.atspi.Registry') \ or ($programname startswith 'org.freedesktop.Telepathy.AccountManager' and ($msg contains 'WARNING' )) \ or ($programname startswith 'org.freedesktop.Notifications')\ or ($programname == 'org.gnome.evolution.dataserver.Calendar4') \ or ($programname startswith 'org.gnome.evolution.dataserver.Sources') \ or ($programname startswith 'org.freedesktop.Telepathy.AccountManager') \ or ($programname == 'org.gnome.OnlineAccounts' and ($msg contains '[DEBUG]') )\ or ($programname == 'systemd' and ($msg contains 'Failed to open private bus connection: Failed to connect to socket' ))\ or ($programname == 'xinetd' and (($msg contains 'START: nntp') or ($msg contains 'EXIT: nntp'))) \ or ($programname == 'systemd' and ( \ ($msg contains 'Starting Paths.')or ($msg contains 'Rea
Re: [Evergreen] lots of systemd log messages when starting up and stopping user sessions
Carlos E. R. wrote: > On Wednesday, 2016-05-18 at 14:18 +0200, Per Jessen wrote: >> Per Jessen wrote: >> >>> I though I would be able to reduce this by adding "Loglevel=notify" >>> to /etc/systemd/user.conf, but: >>> >>> systemd[2034]: [/etc/systemd/user.conf:11] Invalid log >>> level'notify': Operation not permitted >> >> Loglevel=notice does the trick. > > It doesn't do much here. I was getting this block, many times: > It filtered out quite a few of them. All of these are gone: 2016-05-01T00:15:02+02:00 office20 systemd[16144]: Starting Paths. 2016-05-01T00:15:02+02:00 office20 systemd[16144]: Reached target Paths. 2016-05-01T00:15:02+02:00 office20 systemd[16144]: Starting Timers. 2016-05-01T00:15:02+02:00 office20 systemd[16144]: Reached target Timers. 2016-05-01T00:15:02+02:00 office20 systemd[16144]: Starting Sockets. 2016-05-01T00:15:02+02:00 office20 systemd[16144]: Reached target Sockets. 2016-05-01T00:15:02+02:00 office20 systemd[16144]: Starting Basic System. 2016-05-01T00:15:02+02:00 office20 systemd[16144]: Reached target Basic System. 2016-05-01T00:15:02+02:00 office20 systemd[16144]: Starting Default. 2016-05-01T00:15:02+02:00 office20 systemd[16144]: Reached target Default. 2016-05-01T00:15:02+02:00 office20 systemd[16144]: Startup finished in 36ms. Instead of some 40 messages, I see 8 or 9, an 80% reduction :-) 2016-05-19T22:17:01+02:00 sogo systemd[1]: Starting user-1000.slice. 2016-05-19T22:17:01+02:00 sogo systemd[1]: Created slice user-1000.slice. 2016-05-19T22:17:01+02:00 sogo systemd[1]: Starting User Manager for UID 1000... 2016-05-19T22:17:01+02:00 sogo systemd[1]: Started User Manager for UID 1000. 2016-05-20T02:08:15+02:00 sogo systemd[1]: Stopping User Manager for UID 1000... 2016-05-20T02:08:15+02:00 sogo systemd[1]: Stopped User Manager for UID 1000. 2016-05-20T02:08:15+02:00 sogo systemd[1]: Stopping user-1000.slice. 2016-05-20T02:08:15+02:00 sogo systemd[1]: Removed slice user-1000.slice. Anyway, Andrei Borzenkov suggested just masking user@.service, he doesn't think it's actually being used. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (8.8°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. ___ Evergreen mailing list Evergreen@lists.rosenauer.org http://lists.rosenauer.org/mailman/listinfo/evergreen
Re: [Evergreen] lots of systemd log messages when starting up and stopping user sessions
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, 2016-05-18 at 14:18 +0200, Per Jessen wrote: Per Jessen wrote: I though I would be able to reduce this by adding "Loglevel=notify" to /etc/systemd/user.conf, but: systemd[2034]: [/etc/systemd/user.conf:11] Invalid log level'notify': Operation not permitted Loglevel=notice does the trick. It doesn't do much here. I was getting this block, many times: <3.6> 2016-05-19 22:10:03 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Stopping User Manager for UID 30... <3.6> 2016-05-19 22:10:03 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Stopped User Manager for UID 30. <3.6> 2016-05-19 22:10:03 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Stopping user-30.slice. <3.6> 2016-05-19 22:10:03 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Removed slice user-30.slice. <3.6> 2016-05-19 22:15:01 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Starting user-0.slice. <3.6> 2016-05-19 22:15:01 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Created slice user-0.slice. <3.4> 2016-05-19 22:15:01 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Cannot add dependency job for unit udev.service, ignoring: Unit udev.service failed to load: No such file or directory. <3.6> 2016-05-19 22:15:01 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Starting User Manager for UID 0... <3.6> 2016-05-19 22:15:01 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Starting user-30.slice. I added rules in rsyslog to filter them out. What a nuisance. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlc+MnoACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WHaQCfUvCERXXVnCLflnw9D3oiVJgE WpkAn3P0QJ5qj5lXU7MMaWIMtyyFVDUV =zMuT -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Evergreen mailing list Evergreen@lists.rosenauer.org http://lists.rosenauer.org/mailman/listinfo/evergreen
Re: [Evergreen] lots of systemd log messages when starting up and stopping user sessions
On 2016-05-19 23:02, Carlos E. R. wrote: > >> This other message remains, every five minutes, sometimes twice: > >> <3.4> 2016-05-19 16:15:01 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Cannot add dependency job >> for unit udev.service, ignoring: Unit udev.service failed to load: No such >> file or directory. > >> This is after applying all pending updates and rebooting this morning. > > Grepping with 'mc' on the entire "/usr/, I found these entries: ... > I don't think those are in use, being "skeletons", but there are entries > like: > > Wants=udev.service > > or > > Service=udev.service The directories and files in the skels might have been copied to the proposed destinations, but no: Telcontar:~ # l lib/systemd/system/udev* ls: cannot access lib/systemd/system/udev*: No such file or directory Telcontar:~ # l /lib/systemd/system/udev* ls: cannot access /lib/systemd/system/udev*: No such file or directory Telcontar:~ # l /usr/lib/systemd/system/udev* ls: cannot access /usr/lib/systemd/system/udev*: No such file or directory Telcontar:~ # l /usr/lib/systemd/system/udev* ls: cannot access /usr/lib/systemd/system/udev*: No such file or directory Telcontar:~ # l /usr/lib/systemd/system/sockets.target.wants/udev* ls: cannot access /usr/lib/systemd/system/sockets.target.wants/udev*: No such file or directory Telcontar:~ # They would be symlinks, though: Telcontar:~ # l /usr/lib/systemd/system/sockets.target.wants/* lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 14 Feb 19 2015 /usr/lib/systemd/system/sockets.target.wants/dbus.socket -> ../dbus.socket lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 25 Apr 22 12:06 /usr/lib/systemd/system/sockets.target.wants/systemd-initctl.socket -> ../systemd-initctl.socket lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 26 Apr 22 12:06 /usr/lib/systemd/system/sockets.target.wants/systemd-journald.socket -> ../systemd-journald.socket lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 27 Apr 22 12:06 /usr/lib/systemd/system/sockets.target.wants/systemd-shutdownd.socket -> ../systemd-shutdownd.socket lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 31 Apr 22 12:06 /usr/lib/systemd/system/sockets.target.wants/systemd-udevd-control.socket -> ../systemd-udevd-control.socket lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 30 Apr 22 12:06 /usr/lib/systemd/system/sockets.target.wants/systemd-udevd-kernel.socket -> ../systemd-udevd-kernel.socket Telcontar:~ # That "../systemd-udevd-control.socket" contains: [Unit] Description=udev Control Socket Documentation=man:systemd-udevd.service(8) man:udev(7) DefaultDependencies=no Before=sockets.target ConditionPathIsReadWrite=/sys [Socket] Service=systemd-udevd.service < ListenSequentialPacket=/run/udev/control SocketMode=0600 PassCredentials=yes Could be that one? The error message mentions udev.service, not ude.service, so I don't think so. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Evergreen mailing list Evergreen@lists.rosenauer.org http://lists.rosenauer.org/mailman/listinfo/evergreen
Re: [Evergreen] lots of systemd log messages when starting up and stopping user sessions
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, 2016-05-19 at 17:06 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote: This other message remains, every five minutes, sometimes twice: <3.4> 2016-05-19 16:15:01 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Cannot add dependency job for unit udev.service, ignoring: Unit udev.service failed to load: No such file or directory. This is after applying all pending updates and rebooting this morning. Grepping with 'mc' on the entire "/usr/, I found these entries: Left File Command Options Right ┌<─ /usr ──.[^]>┐┌<─ ~/Downloads ───.[^]>┐ │.n y time │ │/.. ┌─ Find File ──┐ 9 21:48│ │/X11R6 │ /usr/share/rear/skel/Fedora/16/lib/systemd/system │ 4 2014│ │/bin│ 14:udev-settle.service │ 0 2013│ │/gameda │ 3:udev-trigger.service │ 5 2014│ │/games │ /usr/share/rear/skel/default/usr/lib/systemd/system │ 5 10:17│ │/i586-s │ 6:udev-control.socket │ 1 2012│ │/includ │ 6:udev-kernel.socket │ 3 2013│ │/java │ 14:udev-settle.service │ 9 2013│ │/lib│ 3:udev-trigger.service │ 2 2013│ │/lib64 │ /usr/share/rear/skel/Fedora/17/usr/lib/systemd/system │ 5 2013│ │/local │ 14:udev-settle.service │ 9 2013│ │/man│ 3:udev-trigger.service │ 2 2013│ │/sbin │ /usr/share/rear/skel/default/usr/lib/systemd/system/sockets.target.wants ││ │/share │ 6:udev-control.socket ││ │/src│ 6:udev-kernel.socket ││ │~tmp│ ││ │/x86_64 │ ││ │ I don't think those are in use, being "skeletons", but there are entries like: Wants=udev.service or Service=udev.service :-? - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlc+KeoACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XE7QCbBNsxD1YwfZUgWDhSMyPOfDmP 82UAn28iXpwkAKjpfD82ukW6rcz8Puxl =72ug -END PGP SIGNATURE-___ Evergreen mailing list Evergreen@lists.rosenauer.org http://lists.rosenauer.org/mailman/listinfo/evergreen
Re: [Evergreen] lots of systemd log messages when starting up and stopping user sessions
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, 2016-05-19 at 09:17 +0200, Per Jessen wrote: Carlos E. R. wrote: Loglevel=notice does the trick. Not here. I get: # <3.4> 2016-05-19 06:10:01 Telcontar systemd 12279 - - # [/etc/systemd/user.conf:12] Unknown lvalue 'Loglevel Hmm, weird. It might be case sensitive - LogLevel=notice works for me on 13.2. That was it; I was getting an error message every five minutes. This other message remains, every five minutes, sometimes twice: <3.4> 2016-05-19 16:15:01 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Cannot add dependency job for unit udev.service, ignoring: Unit udev.service failed to load: No such file or directory. <3.4> 2016-05-19 16:15:01 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Cannot add dependency job for unit udev.service, ignoring: Unit udev.service failed to load: No such file or directory. <3.4> 2016-05-19 16:20:01 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Cannot add dependency job for unit udev.service, ignoring: Unit udev.service failed to load: No such file or directory. <3.4> 2016-05-19 16:25:01 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Cannot add dependency job for unit udev.service, ignoring: Unit udev.service failed to load: No such file or directory. <3.4> 2016-05-19 16:30:01 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Cannot add dependency job for unit udev.service, ignoring: Unit udev.service failed to load: No such file or directory. <3.4> 2016-05-19 16:30:01 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Cannot add dependency job for unit udev.service, ignoring: Unit udev.service failed to load: No such file or directory. <3.3> 2016-05-19 16:30:01 Telcontar systemd 3055 - - Trying to run as user instance, but $XDG_RUNTIME_DIR is not set. <3.4> 2016-05-19 16:35:01 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Cannot add dependency job for unit udev.service, ignoring: Unit udev.service failed to load: No such file or directory. This is after applying all pending updates and rebooting this morning. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlc91o4ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9W3TwCgliaiZGDTLDKrLfjfok9tguvO +EAAoI+B9eI5pYQTO1/y72A8Yb10rUYO =VJLP -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Evergreen mailing list Evergreen@lists.rosenauer.org http://lists.rosenauer.org/mailman/listinfo/evergreen
Re: [Evergreen] lots of systemd log messages when starting up and stopping user sessions
Thanks Per for the LogLevel hint! Just tested, works. Instead of modifying /etc/systemd/user.conf I opted for creating a user@.service dropin that overrides ExecStart, like this: HOST:~ # cat /etc/systemd/system/user@.service.d/notice.conf [Service] ExecStart= ExecStart=-/usr/lib/systemd/systemd --user --log-level=notice (that way I can just install that snippet from my own automatically installed local-workaround-systemd rpm package :) best regards Patrick ___ Evergreen mailing list Evergreen@lists.rosenauer.org http://lists.rosenauer.org/mailman/listinfo/evergreen
Re: [Evergreen] lots of systemd log messages when starting up and stopping user sessions
Carlos E. R. wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > > > On Wednesday, 2016-05-18 at 14:18 +0200, Per Jessen wrote: >> Per Jessen wrote: >> >>> I though I would be able to reduce this by adding "Loglevel=notify" >>> to /etc/systemd/user.conf, but: >>> >>> systemd[2034]: [/etc/systemd/user.conf:11] Invalid log >>> level'notify': Operation not permitted >> >> Loglevel=notice does the trick. > > Not here. > > I get: > > # <3.4> 2016-05-19 06:10:01 Telcontar systemd 12279 - - > # [/etc/systemd/user.conf:12] Unknown lvalue 'Loglevel Hmm, weird. It might be case sensitive - LogLevel=notice works for me on 13.2. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (9.9°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. ___ Evergreen mailing list Evergreen@lists.rosenauer.org http://lists.rosenauer.org/mailman/listinfo/evergreen
Re: [Evergreen] lots of systemd log messages when starting up and stopping user sessions
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, 2016-05-18 at 14:18 +0200, Per Jessen wrote: Per Jessen wrote: I though I would be able to reduce this by adding "Loglevel=notify" to /etc/systemd/user.conf, but: systemd[2034]: [/etc/systemd/user.conf:11] Invalid log level'notify': Operation not permitted Loglevel=notice does the trick. Not here. I get: # <3.4> 2016-05-19 06:10:01 Telcontar systemd 12279 - - [/etc/systemd/user.conf:12] Unknown lvalue 'Loglevel I edited /etc/systemd/user.conf thus: [Manager] #CER Loglevel=notice # #LogLevel=info #LogTarget=console ... - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlc9PzUACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UrfACfRv67exW+IED/64bK7nbKATMI WHsAnjsEYJI5h0HIfg0xt6P7swp01vDQ =H0tU -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Evergreen mailing list Evergreen@lists.rosenauer.org http://lists.rosenauer.org/mailman/listinfo/evergreen
Re: [Evergreen] lots of systemd log messages when starting up and stopping user sessions
Per Jessen wrote: > I though I would be able to reduce this by adding "Loglevel=notify" > to /etc/systemd/user.conf, but: > > systemd[2034]: [/etc/systemd/user.conf:11] Invalid log level'notify': > Operation not permitted Loglevel=notice does the trick. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (18.7°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. ___ Evergreen mailing list Evergreen@lists.rosenauer.org http://lists.rosenauer.org/mailman/listinfo/evergreen
Re: [Evergreen] lots of systemd log messages when starting up and stopping user sessions
On 2016-05-18 08:38, Per Jessen wrote: > Patrick Schaaf wrote: >> I already have some other rsyslog filters for similar stuff, but the >> amount of different messages here, makes me reluctant to go down the >> fiter-it-away route further... >> >> Maybe somebody knows the root cause + could make it go away? :) > > It does seem excessive to log 41 messages for every cronjob. However, > it is not for every cronjob, possibly only for user cronjobs. Jobs for > root only log 8 lines. I think it might be the systemd "User Manager" > that is overly chatty. Yesterday I added more filters to rsyslog. Works wonderful, now I can read what is important in the log. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Evergreen mailing list Evergreen@lists.rosenauer.org http://lists.rosenauer.org/mailman/listinfo/evergreen
Re: [Evergreen] lots of systemd log messages when starting up and stopping user sessions
Patrick Schaaf wrote: > And another one with latest systemd on 13.1: > > triggered by cronjobs running as some normal user, my logs now > "constantly" contain the list of messages shown below. > > That was not the case with earlier systemd packages, even earlier 210 > ones. > > I already have some other rsyslog filters for similar stuff, but the > amount of different messages here, makes me reluctant to go down the > fiter-it-away route further... > > Maybe somebody knows the root cause + could make it go away? :) It does seem excessive to log 41 messages for every cronjob. However, it is not for every cronjob, possibly only for user cronjobs. Jobs for root only log 8 lines. I think it might be the systemd "User Manager" that is overly chatty. The "User Manager" is started as instances of: /usr/lib/systemd/system/user@.service Try your own user for instance: systemctl status user@1000 (assuming you are uid 1000) I though I would be able to reduce this by adding "Loglevel=notify" to /etc/systemd/user.conf, but: systemd[2034]: [/etc/systemd/user.conf:11] Invalid log level'notify': Operation not permitted BTW, the same issue is present on 13.2 and until very recently also on Leap421. On Leap421 the User Manager was also very chatty for root, but that stopped on 2016-05-14 10:00, probably due to some updates I applied. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (10.2°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland. ___ Evergreen mailing list Evergreen@lists.rosenauer.org http://lists.rosenauer.org/mailman/listinfo/evergreen
