Re: [Extropolis] Re: Irrational mechanics, draft Ch. 14

[Giulio Prisco]

I can't disagree because you said the magic word: perhaps.
Perhaps we are the first. Perhaps the universe is teeming with
superintelligent life that acts upon reality in ways that we don't
perceive. Perhaps other perhapses are perhaps true and perhaps not.
Time will tell and we will see.

On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 7:42 PM John Clark  wrote:
>
> On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 7:09 AM Giulio Prisco  wrote:
>
>> ><...billions of stars are radiating all their energy uselessly into nfinite 
>> >space>
>>
>> > "Billions do, but perhaps millions (or thousands) don't."
>
>
> I could explain the existence of no Dyson spheres in the Milky Way, and I 
> could explain the existence of many billions, but I could not explain the 
> existence of just a few thousand; the idea that we just happen to exist 
> during the tiny sliver of time in which that would be the case seems too 
> improbable to consider.
>
>> > They are talking of Tabby's star...
>
>
> I think dust could explain the Tabby star observations much better and 
> certainly more simply than ET can. It's mind boggling to suppose that we are 
> alone in the universe, and it's mind boggling to suppose that we are not, but 
> one of those things must be true, and I think one of them is significantly 
> more likely than the other.
>
>
>>
>> > "They could extract energy from the quantum vacuum (zero point field
>> and all that). Perhaps their astroengineering consists of giant
>> utility fogs that fill entire stellar systems and condensate to do
>> things where and when needed. Perhaps they have left matter as we know
>> behind and live as blobs of thinking quantum fields"
>
>
> And perhaps a simpler explanation is that ET does not exist because we are 
> the first, after all the observable universe is finite in both space and time 
> so somebody's got to be first.
>
> See what's on my new list at  Extropolis
>
> hwk
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> <...the galaxy WILL be engineered in the near future, by that I mean
>> in less than 50 million years.>
>>
>> I think so, too!
>>
>>
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Re: [Extropolis] Re: Irrational mechanics, draft Ch. 14

[Giulio Prisco]

<...billions of stars are radiating all their energy uselessly into
infinite space>

Billions do, but perhaps millions (or thousands) don't. They are
talking of Tabby's star...

Even if Tabby's star is not that thing, come on man, some imagination!
They could extract energy from the quantum vacuum (zero point field
and all that). Perhaps their astroengineering consists of giant
utility fogs that fill entire stellar systems and condensate to do
things where and when needed. Perhaps they have left matter as we know
behind and live as blobs of thinking quantum fields. Just thinking
aloud...

<...the galaxy WILL be engineered in the near future, by that I mean
in less than 50 million years.>

I think so, too!

On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 11:28 AM John Clark  wrote:
>
> On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 2:02 AM Giulio Prisco  wrote:
>
>>> <...all you'd need is a glance into the night sky.>
>>
>>
>> >> "But perhaps they are subtler than that. Note that we observe wild
>> animals with cameras hidden inside decoys that look & smell like one
>> of them, and I've seen videos that suggest the animals think a decoy
>> is one of them. Sure our super aliens are at least that smart."
>
>
> In order to be smart a brain is required and to operate a brain energy is 
> required, but right now in our galaxy alone hundreds of billions of stars are 
> radiating all their energy uselessly into infinite space. That is not very 
> smart and a Jupiter brain would never allow that to happen, certainly not for 
> a trivial reason like in order to fool Homo sapiens into believing that He 
> doesn't exist.
>
> But events that have occurred during the previous 12 months have increased my 
> confidence that the galaxy WILL be engineered in the near future, by that I 
> mean in less than 50 million years.
>
>  See what's on my new list at  Extropolis
>
> l5m
>
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Re: [Extropolis] Re: Irrational mechanics, draft Ch. 14

[Giulio Prisco]

Hi John,

<...at the instant the air molecule hit you, your conscious experience
will not have changed nor would that of anybody else.>

Your conscious experience doesn't change like it would change if you
are hit by a brick, but the quantum state of your body changes (it is
now entangled with the molecule). And this is why I don't think a
perfect copy of a quantum state is needed for technological
resurrection.

<...so far at least the unmodified Schrodinger Equation has passed all
tests with flying colors.>

I would be very surprised if this remains the case for long. The
history of science shows that *all* theories are eventually upgraded.
We are babies on the cosmic scene, I think we still have a lot to
learn.

<...all you'd need is a glance into the night sky.>

But perhaps they are subtler than that. Note that we observe wild
animals with cameras hidden inside decoys that look & smell like one
of them, and I've seen videos that suggest the animals think a decoy
is one of them. Sure our super aliens are at least that smart.

On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 2:31 PM John Clark  wrote:
>
> On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 12:26 AM Giulio Prisco  wrote:
>
> Hi Giulio
>
>>> ><  "If technological resurrection needs a perfect copy of a quantum state] 
>>> >you'd become a different person many trillions of times every second"
>>
>>
>>
>> > "This contradicts what you just said about deterministic evolution".
>
>
>
> I don't see the contradiction. Yes it's possible, even probable, that a 
> single air molecule bumping into you could change you enough that one year 
> from now your history and your conscious experience will be very different 
> from what it would've been if that particular air molecule had not bumped 
> into you, but that doesn't change the fact that right now, at the instant the 
> air molecule hit you, your conscious experience will not have changed nor 
> would that of anybody else. And if Hugh Everett's Many Worlds idea is 
> basically correct, which I think it probably is, then "you"  DO split 
> trillions of times every second and they will all eventually have different 
> histories, but NOT at the instant of the split. Up until that instant they 
> all will have had identical conscious experiences, and it would be 
> nonsensical to ask which one is really "you". They would all have an equal 
> right to call themselves Giulio Prisco.
>
> By the way, if the things that we already understand about quantum mechanics 
> ever start to sink into the zeitgeist of the general population then the 
> English language is going to need to make some big changes, especially about 
> the way it handles personal pronouns. And I suspect other languages are going 
> to have to do the same.
>
>> > "The quantum state (of you + the environment) evolves deterministically 
>> > and contains all those changes."
>
>
> Yes, if everything evolves according to the Schrodinger Equation then that 
> must be the case. There have been some very sensitive experiments which try 
> to find circumstances where the prediction of the equation does not exactly 
> conform to the results of experiment; some competitors to the Many Worlds 
> idea, such as objective collapse theories, claim that the equation needs 
> modification, but so far at least the unmodified Schrodinger Equation has 
> passed all tests with flying colors. But if experimenters ever do find an 
> example where the original Schrodinger Equation doesn't work then they will 
> have proven that Everett's Many Worlds idea is dead wrong. Personally I don't 
> think they're going to find anything but I've been known to be wrong.
>
>>  >"But we agree that technological resurrection does not need a perfect copy 
>> of a quantum state."
>
>
> Yes.
>
>> >>< "I believe that if someday we build a Jupiter brain [-> God]...>"
>>
>> > "What if some alien civilization has already done so?"
>
>
> If that were the case then the Galaxy, if not the entire observable universe, 
> would look radically different from what we see; and I'm not talking about 
> anything subtle, you wouldn't even need a telescope.
>
> John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis
> nnr
>
>
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Re: Irrational mechanics, draft Ch. 14

[Giulio Prisco]

Hi Jesse, excellent points! Replies inline below.

On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 3:14 PM Jesse Mazer  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 12:26 AM Giulio Prisco  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> In Chapter 8 I argued that the cosmic operating system is not less
>> than personal, but more than personal. If the cosmic operating system
>> is super alive, super conscious and super intelligent, then cosmic
>> operating  system = God.
>
>
> Hi Giulio, just wondering, do you think of this cosmic operating system as 
> something that exists at present, or is it more like an Omega Point style 
> idea (without Tipler's specific assumptions about physics/religion) that 
> intelligence will find a way to persist in performing computations and 
> storing records forever, so that "God" can be identified with the infinite 
> limit? One could also speculate that this infinite future in some sense 
> retroactively influences or defines the probabilities of various possible 
> histories leading up to it, whether via something like simulation hypothesis, 
> or certain views on the interpretation of quantum mechanics like Wheeler's 
> participatory universe or the Bousso/Susskind paper at 
> https://arxiv.org/abs/1105.3796
>
>>

I see the cosmic operating system operating above time as we conceive
of it, so if something exists at all then it exists also at all times.
The cosmic operating system exists and acts above time, but from our
in-time perspective we can think that it "will exist" in the future
and retroactively influences the past. The simulation hypothesis is
not necessary if the cosmic operating system itself is a
superintelligent Mind, but it is still a simple and useful metaphor.

>>
>> You have it easier than me! I don't think that everything evolves in a
>> reversible deterministic way (not in the Laplacian sense at least, see
>> chapters on libertarian determinism and Gödel), so building hope is
>> more difficult for me. But I've done it!
>
>
> Is the objection to Laplacian determinism specifically about the paradoxes 
> that arise when a physical system in the universe tries to predict events in 
> its own causal future (the sort of issue discussed at 
> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10670-020-00369-3 )? Or do you 
> have objections that would apply even to the idea that we (or future Omega 
> Point style intelligences) could retroactively verify that any given finite 
> section of our past history unfolded in a way that perfectly obeyed 
> deterministic laws acting on initial boundary conditions?
>

Both. All in my book draft. If there are multiple intersecting
timelines (which by itself negates Laplacian determinism), then
perfect retrodiction is as impossible as perfect prediction.

> Jesse
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>  God]...>
>>
>> What if some alien civilization has already done so?
>>
>> <...so far it's just a theory, or maybe a theory for a theory. >
>>
>> Like everything!
>>
>> <[If technological resurrection needs a perfect copy of a quantum
>> state] you'd become a different person many trillions of times every
>> second...>
>>
>> This contradicts what you just said about deterministic evolution. The
>> quantum state (of you + the environment) evolves deterministically and
>> contains all those changes. But we agree that technological
>> resurrection does not need a perfect copy of a quantum state.
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 4:39 PM John Clark  wrote:
>> >
>> > Giulio Prisco wrote on  
>> > https://www.turingchurch.com/p/irrational-mechanics-draft-ch-14
>> >
>> >> >"I’ve been talking of the ultimate God (the cosmic operating system, aka 
>> >> >Mind at Large" [...] The cosmic operating system is alive and aware, or 
>> >> >better super alive and super aware, and computes above and beyond what 
>> >> >we call time.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >  I like your term "cosmic operating system", but I think it's a mistake to 
>> > equate that to the traditional concept of God. The Cosmic Operating System 
>> > is not a person or even a super person, it need not be conscious or 
>> > intelligent and it might operate the universe but not have created the 
>> > universe. The existence of the universe might turn out to be a logical 
>> > necessity because "nothingness" is unstable.
>> >
>> >
>> >> > "We need, or at least I need, a concept of life after death that is 
>> >> > solid enough to suspend disbelief. Without such a concept of life after 

Re: Irrational mechanics, draft Ch. 14

[Giulio Prisco]

Hi John,



In Chapter 8 I argued that the cosmic operating system is not less
than personal, but more than personal. If the cosmic operating system
is super alive, super conscious and super intelligent, then cosmic
operating  system = God.

By the way, I've completed the book draft! In a few days you'll get
access to the entire current draft and I look forward to your
comments!

<...the fact that quantum mechanics says information cannot be
destroyed because everything evolves according to the Schrodinger
equation in a reversible deterministic way is a little more
interesting; of course quantum mechanics could turn out to be wrong
about that but I sorta doubt it, so it gives me a little hope. Not a
lot but a little.>

You have it easier than me! I don't think that everything evolves in a
reversible deterministic way (not in the Laplacian sense at least, see
chapters on libertarian determinism and Gödel), so building hope is
more difficult for me. But I've done it!

 God]...>

What if some alien civilization has already done so?

<...so far it's just a theory, or maybe a theory for a theory. >

Like everything!

<[If technological resurrection needs a perfect copy of a quantum
state] you'd become a different person many trillions of times every
second...>

This contradicts what you just said about deterministic evolution. The
quantum state (of you + the environment) evolves deterministically and
contains all those changes. But we agree that technological
resurrection does not need a perfect copy of a quantum state.

On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 4:39 PM John Clark  wrote:
>
> Giulio Prisco wrote on  
> https://www.turingchurch.com/p/irrational-mechanics-draft-ch-14
>
>> >"I’ve been talking of the ultimate God (the cosmic operating system, aka 
>> >Mind at Large" [...] The cosmic operating system is alive and aware, or 
>> >better super alive and super aware, and computes above and beyond what we 
>> >call time.
>
>
>
>  I like your term "cosmic operating system", but I think it's a mistake to 
> equate that to the traditional concept of God. The Cosmic Operating System is 
> not a person or even a super person, it need not be conscious or intelligent 
> and it might operate the universe but not have created the universe. The 
> existence of the universe might turn out to be a logical necessity because 
> "nothingness" is unstable.
>
>
>> > "We need, or at least I need, a concept of life after death that is solid 
>> > enough to suspend disbelief. Without such a concept of life after death I 
>> > would fall into the deepest state of paralyzing despair, and jump off the 
>> > closest window to exit this unpleasant game but God is not enough".
>
>
>
> As far as life after death is concerned, the idea of an invisible man in the 
> sky does not give me any comfort or hope, especially not a God as unpleasant 
> as the Christian or Muslim God. The existence of God is not necessary or 
> sufficient for life after death, but the fact that quantum mechanics says 
> information cannot be destroyed because everything evolves according to the 
> Schrodinger equation in a reversible deterministic way is a little more 
> interesting; of course quantum mechanics could turn out to be wrong about 
> that but I sorta doubt it, so it gives me a little hope. Not a lot but a 
> little.  That's why I'm going to have my brain frozen to liquid nitrogen 
> temperatures when I die. I want the information that makes me be me be 
> scrambled as little as possible. I want to make it as easy as I can for your 
> cosmic operating system.
>>
>>  > "and penultimate God-like cosmic engineers"
>
> I don't think such cosmic engineers exist in the observable universe… at 
> least not yet.  I believe that if someday we build a Jupiter brain and then 
> ask it "does God exist?" His  reply will be "He does now".
>>
>> > "I guess there is a high degree of entanglement between persons who love 
>> > the same people, do the same things, or have similar thoughts and feelings,
>
> Quantum entanglement is a real thing and there is even a theory that the 
> geometry of spacetime is the product of the quantum entanglement of 
> information and there's some sort of correlation between spatial distance and 
> entanglement, but so far it's just a theory, or maybe a theory for a theory.
>>
>> > and that entanglement propagates in time.
>
> Your sort of entanglement and  quantum entanglement do  have that in common.
>>
>> > "I don’t think technological resurrection needs a perfect copy of a 
>> > quantum state."
>
> I think that is a virtual certainty, otherwise you'd become a d

Re: [Extropolis] The old Extropian List and Anders Sandberg

[Giulio Prisco]

I never understood why Anders left the mailing list. It seems to me that
one day he was still posting, and the next day he wasn't. Did he ever say
why he was about to leave the list?

On Sun, Dec 10, 2023 at 9:59 PM John Clark  wrote:

> The British newspaper the Financial Times has an article about the impact
> the Extropian List has had on the way people think about AI and it includes
> an interview with Anders Sandberg, he joined that list in the mid-1990s
> about the same time I did, but he was smarter than me, he left about a year
> before I was kicked off.
>
> You can listen to it here:
>
> https://www.ft.com/content/8e6d370d-f78e-4889-be35-e263d248e370
>
> Or read a transcript of it here:
>
> https://www.ft.com/content/14123e16-25ab-45f1-912d-34ffcf0c8177
>
>   John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis
> 
> iko
>
>
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> .
>

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Re: NYTimes.com: Scientists Recreate Pink Floyd Song by Reading Brain Signals of Listeners

[Giulio Prisco]

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 12:08 PM John Clark  wrote:
>
> Check out this article from The New York Times. Because I'm a subscriber, you 
> can read it through this gift link without a subscription.
>
> Scientists Recreate Pink Floyd Song by Reading Brain Signals of Listeners
>
> The audio sounds like it’s being played underwater. Still, it’s a first step 
> toward creating more expressive devices to assist people who can’t speak.

Impressive!

>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/15/science/music-brain-pink-floyd.html?unlocked_article_code=MsBx3Xz-3AjZeclWct1TJtKnBT2VCQBkK_VOInGrNzebz2WTYeryCSaOsD2DWw-Ij17bEhaNptWRZb7x_JEsi7HPDAcniKd85cPwkrt6mcIRneauXF25wgdcYB9ZydIpAC7P-cgh0rkqLqNIMMi1aTUjR9E_PmmVvlVJV2fHFbE9kggCbGwqzRL8tzOHY9S_IjEsDJ6HVxZOoHLb3egBat5vOBP_eX0bOvYBu7d5FMxCRZmcIcTTHHaJg0pNw1hfOs5Pk-shWPVsgUstPNLk8mBkmQ3Y8xmmWhSfqZkPuhpmOyIsDvpFhwocI_J-jVR6PjVtFeAxv1wWrevu0RvgeQ=em-share
>
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Re: The 1st law of thermodynamics has been extended! The road to the stars lays open

[Giulio Prisco]

Press release:
https://wvutoday.wvu.edu/stories/2023/02/22/wvu-physicists-give-the-first-law-of-thermodynamics-a-makeover

On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 6:17 AM spudboy100 via Everything List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> A wise idea to wait for better articles. I will see if anything
> interesting comes our way?
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Henrik Ohrstrom 
> To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Mon, Mar 6, 2023 12:36 am
> Subject: Re: The 1st law of thermodynamics has been extended! The road to
> the stars lays open
>
> The popsci article is unclear and the real article are difficult to read
> on my phone.
> I can not see any free energy anywhere so apart from localized cheating
> with energy transfer there are no Starships here. :(
> /Henrik
>
> Den sön 5 mars 2023 23:18spudboy100 via Everything List <
> everything-list@googlegroups.com> skrev:
>
> Really? Naw, probably not, but this should be real useful anyways. I like
> drama & making outlandish statements.
>
> Still, this is real good. Any inventions from this?
>
> First Law of Thermodynamics Breakthrough Could Upend a Century of
> Equilibrium Theory in Physics - The Debrief
> 
> [image: first law of thermodynamics]
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> .
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Re: An amazing claim by Wiki

[Giulio Prisco]

On 2022. May 19., Thu at 16:06, Alan Grayson  wrote:

> that Richard Feynman derived Einstein's Field Equations from Quantum Field
> Theory.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_contributors_to_general_relativity#F
>
> If Feynman really did that, wouldn't it be tantamount to a quantum theory
> of gravitation? AG
>

See “Feynman’s Lectures on Gravitation” and the foreword by Thorne and
Preskill. Feynman derived a quantum field theory of gravity with Einstein’s
field equations, but most experts consider it valid only from weak fields.
An exception is Frank Tipler who considers it a fully valid theory of
quantum gravity.


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Re: Quantum experiments add weight to a fringe theory of consciousness

[Giulio Prisco]

On 2022. Apr 19., Tue at 17:37, John Clark  wrote:

> Experiments on how anaesthetics alter the behaviour of tiny structures
> found in brain cells bolster the controversial idea that quantum effects in
> the brain might explain consciousness
> read more:
> https://www.newscientist.com/article/2316408-quantum-experiments-add-weight-to-a-fringe-theory-of-consciousness/
>

Interesting. This is (I guess) the same article unpaywalled:
https://www.scientiststudy.com/2022/04/quantum-experiments-add-weight-to.html



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