Re: Is emergence real or just in models?

2002-11-28 Thread Tim May

On Wednesday, November 27, 2002, at 11:42  PM, Eric Hawthorne wrote:


I'm in the camp that thinks that emergent systems are real phenomena, 
and
that eventually, objective criteria would be able to be established 
that would
allow us to say definitively whether an emerged system existed in some
time and place in the universe.

I see emergent properties in very simple systems. I'll get to my main 
example in a few minutes.

Why do higher-level systems emerge in our universe? Is there something 
about
some systems that allows the system and its constituent parts to 
out-compete
alternative configurations of matter and energy?

Competition and differential reproduction is important, but the example 
I'll give here involves neither.

OK, the example.

Go.

Black and white stones, with rules for moves that can be written on a 
small index card. Similar to a cellular automaton, though not as 
general.

And yet from simple rules on a simple grid, emergent properties:

* thickness (a measure of strength or weakness, depending)

* influence (ability to influence direction of evolution)

* a host of other emergent behaviors named by the main countries 
playing Go

(Anyone who has played Go has seen the reality of thickness, 
influence, gote, sente, and other properties. They were not obvious 
from first principles in the simple, CA-like rules of Go, but they 
emerge very quickly. Granted, the very concept of influence is partly 
shaped by human (or predator) notions of what influence means, but it 
seems clear to me that the ontology of Go (and by extension, other CAs) 
involves higher-order emergent behavior descriptions.)

The moral is that even very simple CA-like systems have behaviors with 
apparently higher-level behaviors, aka emergent behaviors.


--Tim



Re: Is emergence real or just in models?

2002-11-28 Thread Russell Standish
Tim May wrote:
 
 OK, the example.
 
 Go.
 
 Black and white stones, with rules for moves that can be written on a 
 small index card. Similar to a cellular automaton, though not as 
 general.
 
 And yet from simple rules on a simple grid, emergent properties:
 
 * thickness (a measure of strength or weakness, depending)
 
 * influence (ability to influence direction of evolution)
 
 * a host of other emergent behaviors named by the main countries 
 playing Go
 
 (Anyone who has played Go has seen the reality of thickness, 
 influence, gote, sente, and other properties. They were not obvious 
 from first principles in the simple, CA-like rules of Go, but they 
 emerge very quickly. Granted, the very concept of influence is partly 
 shaped by human (or predator) notions of what influence means, but it 
 seems clear to me that the ontology of Go (and by extension, other CAs) 
 involves higher-order emergent behavior descriptions.)
 
 The moral is that even very simple CA-like systems have behaviors with 
 apparently higher-level behaviors, aka emergent behaviors.
 
 
 --Tim
 

Fits in nicely with my definition of emergence. Mind you, I would
consider Go to be a complex system, not a simple one.

Cheers


A/Prof Russell Standish  Director
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