Re: New laws of physics will not help us understand consciousness or how the brain works

[John Clark]

On Sun, May 21, 2023 at 9:18 PM  wrote:

>*I can name 3 for ya. *
> *1. Roger Penrose. Oxford, right?*
>

Wrong. About 25 years ago Roger Penrose suggested that microtubules inside
of neurons might be involved in quantum computing (he didn't say how) which
helped to tell the neuron when to fire, but since that time not a particle
of evidence has surfaced in support of the idea and conditions are so hot
and chaotic inside a microtube it's very hard to see how it could be true.
But even in the unlikely event it turned out to be correct it wouldn't
contradict anything that Sean Carroll has been saying because we've already
been able to make small Quantum Computers and we didn't need new laws of
physics or changes to the Standard Model Of Particle Physics or of General
Relativity to do so. In fact if it had turned out that Quantum Computing
was impossible then that *WOULD* have required a change in our
understanding of the fundamental laws of physics.

*> 2. Christianne Mornais Smith*
>

I've never heard of her before but I looked her up and apparently she
believes that the brain’s neural system forms an intricate network and that
the consciousness this produces should obey the rules of quantum mechanics.
But that's not very controversial, in fact it's a bit of a platitude.
*EVERYTHING* obeys quantum mechanics.


> > 3. *Henry Stapp of course.*
>

I've never heard of him either but according to Google he believes that
classical physics cannot describe the brain, and thinks that a quantum
framework is needed for a full explanation. Well duh, a quantum framework
is required for a full explanation of *ANYTHING*.

*> For Carroll and the Multiverse? I am ok with materialism or dualism as
> long as it works well? *
>

If you had read Carroll's Book on the subject or even bothered to watch the
video that I recommended (which of course you did not do) you would know
that his views about the Multiverse have *NOTHING* to do with his idea of
how the brain works.


> *> The only appeal of the Multiverse is more fun for everyone.*
>

The only appeal of the Multiverse is that unlike its competitors it has
*NOTHING* to do with consciousness and so does not need to open that can of
worms.

> *Of course if you really want to define consciousness, you were claiming
> pantheism as ChatGpt4 being conscious, correct?*
>

Let me put it this way, the evidence I have that GPT-4 is conscious is just
as strong as the evidence I have that you are conscious. That's because we
have never met so the only evidence I have about either of you is the
string of ASCII characters that you and GPT-4 have produced.

John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis

f7z

8eg


>
> What on earth are you talking about?!  Carroll specifically says that the
> Many Worlds idea has NOTHING to do with consciousness, and for me that has
> always been one of its great appeals, unlike Copenhagen Many Worlds does
> not need to explain consciousness because it has nothing to do with it. If
> Many Worlds was proved or disproved tomorrow nobody's idea about
> consciousness would need to be changed one bit.
>
>
>
> *> Other physicists and scientists have opined that maybe "mind" does
> "influence" what goes on in these 3 apparent dimensions. *
>
>
> Name those physicists. The Standard Model of Particle Physics and General
> Relativity both completely ignore "mind", so why are the predictions they
> make so amazingly good?
>
>
> 8gg
>
>
>
>
>
> In this video Sean Carroll makes a very strong case that new laws of
> physics will not help us understand consciousness or how the brain works:
>
>
> Quantum Mechanics Limits our knowledge of Universe
> 
>
>
>
>

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Re: New laws of physics will not help us understand consciousness or how the brain works

[spudboy100 via Everything List]

I can name 3 for ya. 
1. Roger Penrose. Oxford, right?
2. Christianne Mornais Smith

Christiane de Morais Smith Lehner is a Brazilian theoretical physicist and 
professor at the Institute for Theoretical Physics at the University of 
Utrecht, where she leads a research group studying condensed matter physics, 
cold atoms and strongly-correlated systems.
3. Henry Stapp of course. 
For Carroll and the Multiverse? I am ok with materialism or dualism as long as 
it works well? The only appeal of the Multiverse is more fun for everyone. Good 
science fiction tales, perhaps a place to have an afterlife? 
Of course if you really want to define consciousness, you were claiming 
pantheism as ChatGpt4 being conscious, correct? Like in April, remember? For 
me, I was demanding that such a mind be based on the mammalian brain. So, I 
could be way wrong. Now, here was a physics team (with 1 comsci guy, Lanier) 
promoting consciousness as primo to the universe. 
[2104.03902] The Autodidactic Universe (arxiv.org)
"We present an approach to cosmology in which the Universe learns its own 
physical laws. It does so by exploring a landscape of possible laws, which we 
express as a certain class of matrix models. We discover maps that put each of 
these matrix models in correspondence with both a gauge/gravity theory and a 
mathematical model of a learning machine, such as a deep recurrent, cyclic 
neural network. This establishes a correspondence between each solution of the 
physical theory and a run of a neural network. This correspondence is not an 
equivalence, partly because gauge theories emerge from N→∞ limits of the matrix 
models, whereas the same limits of the neural networks used here are not 
well-defined. We discuss in detail what it means to say that learning takes 
place in autodidactic systems, where there is no supervision. We propose that 
if the neural network model can be said to learn without supervision, the same 
can be said for the corresponding physical theory. We consider other protocols 
for autodidactic physical systems, such as optimization of graph variety, 
subset-replication using self-attention and look-ahead, geometrogenesis guided 
by reinforcement learning, structural learning using renormalization group 
techniques, and extensions. These protocols together provide a number of 
directions in which to explore the origin of physical laws based on putting 
machine learning architectures in correspondence with physical theories."

If quantum woo is wrong, I don't wanna be right! 









-Original Message-
From: John Clark 
To: spudboy...@aol.com
Cc: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Sun, May 21, 2023 7:25 am
Subject: Re: New laws of physics will not help us understand consciousness or 
how the brain works

On Sat, May 20, 2023 at 9:25 PM  wrote:


> Carroll is drawing a magical imaginary line across physical, material, 
> reality. He is doing Cartesian Dualism starting with pure physics.  
Rene' DesCarte, Two kind of matter. 

What on earth are you talking about?!  Carroll specifically says that the Many 
Worlds idea has NOTHING to do with consciousness, and for me that has always 
been one of its great appeals, unlike Copenhagen Many Worlds does not need to 
explain consciousness because it has nothing to do with it. If Many Worlds was 
proved or disproved tomorrow nobody's idea about consciousness would need to be 
changed one bit.  

> Other physicists and scientists have opined that maybe "mind" does 
> "influence" what goes on in these 3 apparent dimensions. 


Name those physicists. The Standard Model of Particle Physics and General 
Relativity both completely ignore "mind", so why are the predictions they make 
so amazingly good? 
John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis
8eg8gg

 

In this video Sean Carroll makes a very strong case that new laws of physics 
will not help us understand consciousness or how the brain works: 

Quantum Mechanics Limits our knowledge of Universe




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Re: New laws of physics will not help us understand consciousness or how the brain works

[John Clark]

On Sat, May 20, 2023 at 9:25 PM  wrote:

*> Carroll is drawing a magical imaginary line across physical, material,
> reality.  *
>
> *He is doing Cartesian Dualism starting with pure physics.  *
> *Rene' DesCarte, Two kind of matter. *
>

What on earth are you talking about?!  Carroll specifically says that the
Many Worlds idea has NOTHING to do with consciousness, and for me that has
always been one of its great appeals, unlike Copenhagen Many Worlds does
not need to explain consciousness because it has nothing to do with it. If
Many Worlds was proved or disproved tomorrow nobody's idea about
consciousness would need to be changed one bit.


>
> *> Other physicists and scientists have opined that maybe "mind" does
> "influence" what goes on in these 3 apparent dimensions. *
>

Name those physicists. The Standard Model of Particle Physics and General
Relativity both completely ignore "mind", so why are the predictions they
make so amazingly good?

John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis

8eg
8gg




>
> In this video Sean Carroll makes a very strong case that new laws of
> physics will not help us understand consciousness or how the brain works:
>
>
> Quantum Mechanics Limits our knowledge of Universe
> 
>
>
>
>

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Re: New laws of physics will not help us understand consciousness or how the brain works

[spudboy100 via Everything List]

Carroll is drawing a magical imaginary line across physical, material, reality. 
He is doing Cartesian Dualism starting with pure physics.  Rene' DesCarte, Two 
kind of matter. 
He hasn't proven this in any sense. 
Other physicists and scientists have opined that maybe "mind" does "influence" 
what goes on in these 3 apparent dimensions. 




-Original Message-
From: John Clark 
To: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
Sent: Thu, May 18, 2023 10:59 am
Subject: New laws of physics will not help us understand consciousness or how 
the brain works

In this video Sean Carroll makes a very strong case that new laws of physics 
will not help us understand consciousness or how the brain works: 

Quantum Mechanics Limits our knowledge of Universe

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis
7mq-- 
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New laws of physics will not help us understand consciousness or how the brain works

[John Clark]

In this video Sean Carroll makes a very strong case that new laws of
physics will not help us understand consciousness or how the brain works:


Quantum Mechanics Limits our knowledge of Universe


John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis

7mq

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