Re: Bees solve NP-Hard problems! How?

2012-09-20 Thread Stephen P. King 

On 9/20/2012 11:27 PM, meekerdb wrote:

On 9/20/2012 8:17 PM, Stephen P. King wrote:

On 9/20/2012 9:50 PM, meekerdb wrote:

On 9/20/2012 6:25 PM, Stephen P. King wrote:

On 9/20/2012 12:09 PM, meekerdb wrote:

On 9/20/2012 12:22 AM, Stephen P. King wrote:

Any one up to explaining this:

http://www.qmul.ac.uk/media/news/items/se/38864.html



What's to explain?  The bees found the shortest route. Do you 
suffer from the misconception that NP-hard = insoluble?  NP is 
just a description of how a computation scales.  For the number of 
places bees visit it may be very easy to solve, even though the 
number of steps grows faster than polynomially with the number of 
places to visit.


Brent
--


 Gee Brent,

Leave it to you to miss the obvious. How did the computation 
occur for the bees? What the researches showed is that bees can 
figure out the solution and navigate it as they go from flower to 
flower. How does this happen?


I didn't miss the obvious way to find out, which was to read the 
paper.  They just tried different routes (which in computerese is 
called 'exhaustive search').


Brent


All of them?


Yes, all of them.  There were only four flowers to go to.  And as 
Jason pointed out the bees didn't 'solve' the problem in the sense of 
always taking the shortest route - they only did so 40% of the time.


Brent
WELL! I was unable to read the abstract. So, the title of the article is 
a lie!



--
Onward!

Stephen

http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html

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Re: Bees solve NP-Hard problems! How?

2012-09-20 Thread meekerdb 

On 9/20/2012 8:17 PM, Stephen P. King wrote:

On 9/20/2012 9:50 PM, meekerdb wrote:

On 9/20/2012 6:25 PM, Stephen P. King wrote:

On 9/20/2012 12:09 PM, meekerdb wrote:

On 9/20/2012 12:22 AM, Stephen P. King wrote:

Any one up to explaining this:

http://www.qmul.ac.uk/media/news/items/se/38864.html



What's to explain?  The bees found the shortest route.  Do you suffer from the 
misconception that NP-hard = insoluble?  NP is just a description of how a 
computation scales.  For the number of places bees visit it may be very easy to 
solve, even though the number of steps grows faster than polynomially with the number 
of places to visit.


Brent
--


 Gee Brent,

Leave it to you to miss the obvious. How did the computation occur for the bees? 
What the researches showed is that bees can figure out the solution and navigate it as 
they go from flower to flower. How does this happen?


I didn't miss the obvious way to find out, which was to read the paper.  They just 
tried different routes (which in computerese is called 'exhaustive search').


Brent


All of them?


Yes, all of them.  There were only four flowers to go to.  And as Jason pointed out the 
bees didn't 'solve' the problem in the sense of always taking the shortest route - they 
only did so 40% of the time.


Brent

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Re: Bees solve NP-Hard problems! How?

2012-09-20 Thread Stephen P. King 

On 9/20/2012 9:50 PM, meekerdb wrote:

On 9/20/2012 6:25 PM, Stephen P. King wrote:

On 9/20/2012 12:09 PM, meekerdb wrote:

On 9/20/2012 12:22 AM, Stephen P. King wrote:

Any one up to explaining this:

http://www.qmul.ac.uk/media/news/items/se/38864.html



What's to explain?  The bees found the shortest route.  Do you 
suffer from the misconception that NP-hard = insoluble? NP is just a 
description of how a computation scales.  For the number of places 
bees visit it may be very easy to solve, even though the number of 
steps grows faster than polynomially with the number of places to visit.


Brent
--


 Gee Brent,

Leave it to you to miss the obvious. How did the computation 
occur for the bees? What the researches showed is that bees can 
figure out the solution and navigate it as they go from flower to 
flower. How does this happen?


I didn't miss the obvious way to find out, which was to read the 
paper.  They just tried different routes (which in computerese is 
called 'exhaustive search').


Brent


All of them?


--
Onward!

Stephen

http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html

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Re: Bees solve NP-Hard problems! How?

2012-09-20 Thread Jason Resch 
Did no one actually read the abstract of the article I sent?

There were only 4 locations and the bees did not even use the optimum paths
all the time.

Jason

On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 8:25 PM, Stephen P. King wrote:

>  On 9/20/2012 12:09 PM, meekerdb wrote:
>
> On 9/20/2012 12:22 AM, Stephen P. King wrote:
>
> Any one up to explaining this:
>
> http://www.qmul.ac.uk/media/news/items/se/38864.html
>
>
> What's to explain?  The bees found the shortest route.  Do you suffer from
> the misconception that NP-hard = insoluble?  NP is just a description of
> how a computation scales.  For the number of places bees visit it may be
> very easy to solve, even though the number of steps grows faster than
> polynomially with the number of places to visit.
>
> Brent
>  --
>
>
>  Gee Brent,
>
> Leave it to you to miss the obvious. How did the computation occur for
> the bees? What the researches showed is that bees can figure out the
> solution and navigate it as they go from flower to flower. How does this
> happen?
>
>
> --
> Onward!
>
> Stephen
> http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html
>
>  --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Everything List" group.
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> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>

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Re: Bees solve NP-Hard problems! How?

2012-09-20 Thread meekerdb 

On 9/20/2012 6:25 PM, Stephen P. King wrote:

On 9/20/2012 12:09 PM, meekerdb wrote:

On 9/20/2012 12:22 AM, Stephen P. King wrote:

Any one up to explaining this:

http://www.qmul.ac.uk/media/news/items/se/38864.html



What's to explain?  The bees found the shortest route.  Do you suffer from the 
misconception that NP-hard = insoluble?  NP is just a description of how a computation 
scales.  For the number of places bees visit it may be very easy to solve, even though 
the number of steps grows faster than polynomially with the number of places to visit.


Brent
--


 Gee Brent,

Leave it to you to miss the obvious. How did the computation occur for the bees? 
What the researches showed is that bees can figure out the solution and navigate it as 
they go from flower to flower. How does this happen?


I didn't miss the obvious way to find out, which was to read the paper.  They just tried 
different routes (which in computerese is called 'exhaustive search').


Brent

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Re: Bees solve NP-Hard problems! How?

2012-09-20 Thread Stephen P. King 

On 9/20/2012 12:09 PM, meekerdb wrote:

On 9/20/2012 12:22 AM, Stephen P. King wrote:

Any one up to explaining this:

http://www.qmul.ac.uk/media/news/items/se/38864.html



What's to explain?  The bees found the shortest route.  Do you suffer 
from the misconception that NP-hard = insoluble?  NP is just a 
description of how a computation scales.  For the number of places 
bees visit it may be very easy to solve, even though the number of 
steps grows faster than polynomially with the number of places to visit.


Brent
--


 Gee Brent,

Leave it to you to miss the obvious. How did the computation occur 
for the bees? What the researches showed is that bees can figure out the 
solution and navigate it as they go from flower to flower. How does this 
happen?


--
Onward!

Stephen

http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html

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Re: Bees solve NP-Hard problems! How?

2012-09-20 Thread Stephen P. King 

On 9/20/2012 7:15 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote:

Collective consciousness


Interesting. What links the bees together such that a "collective" 
is possible?




On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 3:22 AM, Stephen P. King  wrote:

Any one up to explaining this:

http://www.qmul.ac.uk/media/news/items/se/38864.html

--



--
Onward!

Stephen

http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html


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Re: Bees solve NP-Hard problems! How?

2012-09-20 Thread meekerdb 

On 9/20/2012 12:22 AM, Stephen P. King wrote:

Any one up to explaining this:

http://www.qmul.ac.uk/media/news/items/se/38864.html



What's to explain?  The bees found the shortest route.  Do you suffer from the 
misconception that NP-hard = insoluble?  NP is just a description of how a computation 
scales.  For the number of places bees visit it may be very easy to solve, even though the 
number of steps grows faster than polynomially with the number of places to visit.


Brent

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Re: Bees solve NP-Hard problems! How?

2012-09-20 Thread Richard Ruquist 
Collective consciousness

On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 3:22 AM, Stephen P. King  wrote:
> Any one up to explaining this:
>
> http://www.qmul.ac.uk/media/news/items/se/38864.html
>
> --
> Onward!
>
> Stephen
>
> http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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>

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Re: Bees solve NP-Hard problems! How?

2012-09-20 Thread Jason Resch 
As usual with scientific journalism, the media over hypes the more modest
claims of the original article:

"We analyzed bee flight movements in an array of four artificial flowers
maximizing interfloral distances. Starting from a single patch, we
sequentially added three new patches so that if bees visited them in the
order in which they originally encountered flowers, they would follow a
long (suboptimal) route. Bees' tendency to visit patches in their discovery
order decreased with experience. Instead, they optimized their flight
distances by rearranging flower visitation sequences. This resulted in the
development of a primary route (trapline) and two or three less frequently
used secondary routes. Bees consistently used these routes after overnight
breaks while occasionally exploring novel possibilities. We discuss how
maintaining some level of route flexibility could allow traplining animals
to cope with dynamic routing problems, analogous to the well-known
traveling salesman problem."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20973670

On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 2:22 AM, Stephen P. King wrote:

> Any one up to explaining this:
>
> http://www.qmul.ac.uk/media/**news/items/se/38864.html
>
> --
> Onward!
>
> Stephen
>
> http://webpages.charter.net/**stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html
>
>
> --
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> group/everything-list?hl=en
> .
>
>

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