Re: Nova Spivack on 'Consciousness is More Fundamental Than Computation'
On 26 Mar 2014, at 01:21, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, March 25, 2014 11:42:03 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 24 Mar 2014, at 21:36, Craig Weinberg wrote: http://www.novaspivack.com/uncategorized/consciousness-is-not-a-computation-2 Come on, the guy believe in Aristotelian theology, clearly without knowing it, and he believes that a computer is material, etc. Then his argument is along the line of begging the question entirely on consciousness, ... and on matter. He's just another example of the growing number of people who are familiar with AI from the inside who are willing to admit that consciousness does not arise through computation. He is just awakening to the comp mind-body problem, (like all 1p- machines), but not yet to its solution, which is indeed shocking, at least for people unaware of Everett, FPI, and all that. Bruno Craig Bruno -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Nova Spivack on 'Consciousness is More Fundamental Than Computation'
On Wednesday, March 26, 2014 6:40:40 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 26 Mar 2014, at 01:21, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, March 25, 2014 11:42:03 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 24 Mar 2014, at 21:36, Craig Weinberg wrote: http://www.novaspivack.com/uncategorized/consciousness-is-not-a-computation-2 Come on, the guy believe in Aristotelian theology, clearly without knowing it, and he believes that a computer is material, etc. Then his argument is along the line of begging the question entirely on consciousness, ... and on matter. He's just another example of the growing number of people who are familiar with AI from the inside who are willing to admit that consciousness does not arise through computation. He is just awakening to the comp mind-body problem, (like all 1p-machines), but not yet to its solution, which is indeed shocking, at least for people unaware of Everett, FPI, and all that. You don't know what he knows. Craig Bruno Craig Bruno -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com javascript:. To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.comjavascript: . Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Nova Spivack on 'Consciousness is More Fundamental Than Computation'
On 27 March 2014 04:00, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: On Wednesday, March 26, 2014 6:40:40 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 26 Mar 2014, at 01:21, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, March 25, 2014 11:42:03 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 24 Mar 2014, at 21:36, Craig Weinberg wrote: http://www.novaspivack.com/uncategorized/consciousness- is-not-a-computation-2 Come on, the guy believe in Aristotelian theology, clearly without knowing it, and he believes that a computer is material, etc. Then his argument is along the line of begging the question entirely on consciousness, ... and on matter. He's just another example of the growing number of people who are familiar with AI from the inside who are willing to admit that consciousness does not arise through computation. He is just awakening to the comp mind-body problem, (like all 1p-machines), but not yet to its solution, which is indeed shocking, at least for people unaware of Everett, FPI, and all that. You don't know what he knows. You know what he publishes, which is a good proxy. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Nova Spivack on 'Consciousness is More Fundamental Than Computation'
On Wednesday, March 26, 2014 6:35:18 PM UTC-4, Liz R wrote: On 27 March 2014 04:00, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript:wrote: On Wednesday, March 26, 2014 6:40:40 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 26 Mar 2014, at 01:21, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, March 25, 2014 11:42:03 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 24 Mar 2014, at 21:36, Craig Weinberg wrote: http://www.novaspivack.com/uncategorized/consciousness- is-not-a-computation-2 Come on, the guy believe in Aristotelian theology, clearly without knowing it, and he believes that a computer is material, etc. Then his argument is along the line of begging the question entirely on consciousness, ... and on matter. He's just another example of the growing number of people who are familiar with AI from the inside who are willing to admit that consciousness does not arise through computation. He is just awakening to the comp mind-body problem, (like all 1p-machines), but not yet to its solution, which is indeed shocking, at least for people unaware of Everett, FPI, and all that. You don't know what he knows. You know what he publishes, which is a good proxy. What he publishes gives me every indication that he knows his way around computer science. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Nova Spivack on 'Consciousness is More Fundamental Than Computation'
2014-03-25 1:46 GMT+01:00 LizR lizj...@gmail.com: He suggests quantum computers can't be simulated (probably a lot more slowly) by classical computers. I thought they could? Then he's wrong, because quantum computers can't compute more than a turing machine... Quentin On 25 March 2014 10:15, Gabriel Bodeen gabebod...@gmail.com wrote: He gives six evidences. First, he falls for quantum pseudoscience. Second, he says that he personally failed to make AI when he tried and incorrectly implies that difficulty means impossibility. Third, he brings up the hard problem and uses it to make an argument from ignorance. Fourth, he says he doesn't know how to define what he means by consciousness, and then makes another argument from ignorance. Fifth, he repeats the mistaken Berkeley's Master argument. Sixth, he falls for NDE pseudoscience. Unconvincing. On Monday, March 24, 2014 3:36:43 PM UTC-5, Craig Weinberg wrote: http://www.novaspivack.com/uncategorized/consciousness- is-not-a-computation-2 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Nova Spivack on 'Consciousness is More Fundamental Than Computation'
On Monday, March 24, 2014 9:15:04 PM UTC, Gabriel Bodeen wrote: He gives six evidences. First, he falls for quantum pseudoscience. Second, he says that he personally failed to make AI when he tried and incorrectly implies that difficulty means impossibility. Third, he brings up the hard problem and uses it to make an argument from ignorance. Fourth, he says he doesn't know how to define what he means by consciousness, and then makes another argument from ignorance. Fifth, he repeats the mistaken Berkeley's Master argument. Sixth, he falls for NDE pseudoscience. Unconvincing. l I would agree with a substantial amount of that or else otherwise that he's wrong. But to be fair at minimum substance of having no more than a hunch, he's really up against the odds, because he has to swim against the current of a stream dominated by objects originally conjectured to be in accordance with what has been a long standing general explanation. Likewise all on-going refinements arising out of the same inbuilt utility for reinforcing that same long standing explanation. All six objects you list depend for their on going selection for extension on their fitness for purpose, manifested as ongoing positive reinforcement. Seen that way it's less of a surprise he would have to interpret at least one, probably all, at least a little bit different. Nor hardly a surprise that all such doors have been slammed shut long since. Maybe so long since that the labels - the names given such as you list, are so familiar to proponents, and so agreed with, with so little or even nothing between any two proponents. Hence so long since the last major revisionist, or potentially so, dynamism graced the innards, the home turf, the place where only proponents go. Is any of this a problem, or is it no different than science as usual? Well, the thing is, this sort of reinforcement and undisturbed unanimity has normally settled onto theoretical domains that had a heyday once, in which that theoretical accomplishment told the world things about the nature of reality, that hadn't been anticipated and where the world could go and look to find it, typically in a place the world had never thought to look. Not only that, but even a large section of the enablers - whether technology or analytical devices, that going to look entailed use of. Not only that, but devices and models, and technologies, and even new and independent sciences, were typically independent in fundamental ways, of that theory, such that the potential for duplicate components in both, producing convergent results was minimized. # I think this points to a legitimate concern as to the health of your preferred theory. It has basically produced approximately nothing in more than 50 years. And this despite multiple revolutions in the background enabling technologies, not least computing itself, that all takent together, should have been enough to heave your theory over any holding back hurdles. But remarkably,, any reasonable process of controlling for progress arising from revolutions in the background enabliers, the approximate give back of your theory is nothing. I think just for that alone, a little less stridency, and a large helping of humbleness and innards generated uncertainty and scepticism - even if only playing devils advocate, because that's fine. So long as it's hardball it's fine. And maybe not so much reeling off 6 longstanding - philosophy standard - refutations of interpretive variations, almost in glib fashion, when someone is struggling upstream with a hunch, that on the face of things, looks at leat partially...actualluy pretty reasonable. Beggars can't choosers domain of computationism,. Take a closer look at the upstream swimmers and their hunches. if you can't produce your own from within, that lead to things moving forward again. Welcome the swimmers. On Monday, March 24, 2014 3:36:43 PM UTC-5, Craig Weinberg http://www.novaspivack.com/uncategorized/consciousness-is-not-a-computation-2 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Nova Spivack on 'Consciousness is More Fundamental Than Computation'
On Tuesday, March 25, 2014 11:56:37 AM UTC, ghi...@gmail.com wrote: On Monday, March 24, 2014 9:15:04 PM UTC, Gabriel Bodeen wrote: He gives six evidences. First, he falls for quantum pseudoscience. Second, he says that he personally failed to make AI when he tried and incorrectly implies that difficulty means impossibility. Third, he brings up the hard problem and uses it to make an argument from ignorance. Fourth, he says he doesn't know how to define what he means by consciousness, and then makes another argument from ignorance. Fifth, he repeats the mistaken Berkeley's Master argument. Sixth, he falls for NDE pseudoscience. Unconvincing. l I would agree with a substantial amount of that or else otherwise that he's wrong. But to be fair at minimum substance of having no more than a hunch, he's really up against the odds, because he has to swim against the current of a stream dominated by objects originally conjectured to be in accordance with what has been a long standing general explanation. Likewise all on-going refinements arising out of the same inbuilt utility for reinforcing that same long standing explanation. All six objects you list depend for their on going selection for extension on their fitness for purpose, manifested as ongoing positive reinforcement. Seen that way it's less of a surprise he would have to interpret at least one, probably all, at least a little bit different. Nor hardly a surprise that all such doors have been slammed shut long since. Maybe so long since that the labels - the names given such as you list, are so familiar to proponents, and so agreed with, with so little or even nothing between any two proponents. Hence so long since the last major revisionist, or potentially so, dynamism graced the innards, the home turf, the place where only proponents go. Is any of this a problem, or is it no different than science as usual? Well, the thing is, this sort of reinforcement and undisturbed unanimity has normally settled onto theoretical domains that had a heyday once, in which that theoretical accomplishment told the world things about the nature of reality, that hadn't been anticipated and where the world could go and look to find it, typically in a place the world had never thought to look. Not only that, but even a large section of the enablers - whether technology or analytical devices, that going to look entailed use of. Not only that, but devices and models, and technologies, and even new and independent sciences, were typically independent in fundamental ways, of that theory, such that the potential for duplicate components in both, producing convergent results was minimized. # I think this points to a legitimate concern as to the health of your preferred theory. It has basically produced approximately nothing in more than 50 years. And this despite multiple revolutions in the background enabling technologies, not least computing itself, that all takent together, should have been enough to heave your theory over any holding back hurdles. But remarkably,, any reasonable process of controlling for progress arising from revolutions in the background enabliers, the approximate give back of your theory is nothing. I think just for that alone, a little less stridency, and a large helping of humbleness and innards generated uncertainty and scepticism - even if only playing devils advocate, because that's fine. So long as it's hardball it's fine. And maybe not so much reeling off 6 longstanding - philosophy standard - refutations of interpretive variations, almost in glib fashion, when someone is struggling upstream with a hunch, that on the face of things, looks at leat partially...actualluy pretty reasonable. Beggars can't choosers domain of computationism,. Take a closer look at the upstream swimmers and their hunches. if you can't produce your own from within, that lead to things moving forward again. Welcome the swimmers. that being said the guy talks a lot of shit, so perhaps look there least, or last t On Monday, March 24, 2014 3:36:43 PM UTC-5, Craig Weinberg http://www.novaspivack.com/uncategorized/consciousness-is-not-a-computation-2 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Nova Spivack on 'Consciousness is More Fundamental Than Computation'
On 24 Mar 2014, at 21:36, Craig Weinberg wrote: http://www.novaspivack.com/uncategorized/consciousness-is-not-a-computation-2 Come on, the guy believe in Aristotelian theology, clearly without knowing it, and he believes that a computer is material, etc. Then his argument is along the line of begging the question entirely on consciousness, ... and on matter. Bruno -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Nova Spivack on 'Consciousness is More Fundamental Than Computation'
On 25 Mar 2014, at 01:46, LizR wrote: He suggests quantum computers can't be simulated (probably a lot more slowly) by classical computers. I thought they could? I think he is just unclear. To be sure a classical computer *can* simulate a quantum computer, albeit very slowly. But the 1p measure is invariant for those delays, so it remains possible that the speed of the comp quantum computer will be explained by that fact. Bruno On 25 March 2014 10:15, Gabriel Bodeen gabebod...@gmail.com wrote: He gives six evidences. First, he falls for quantum pseudoscience. Second, he says that he personally failed to make AI when he tried and incorrectly implies that difficulty means impossibility. Third, he brings up the hard problem and uses it to make an argument from ignorance. Fourth, he says he doesn't know how to define what he means by consciousness, and then makes another argument from ignorance. Fifth, he repeats the mistaken Berkeley's Master argument. Sixth, he falls for NDE pseudoscience. Unconvincing. On Monday, March 24, 2014 3:36:43 PM UTC-5, Craig Weinberg wrote: http://www.novaspivack.com/uncategorized/consciousness-is-not-a-computation-2 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Nova Spivack on 'Consciousness is More Fundamental Than Computation'
On Monday, March 24, 2014 5:13:26 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On 25 March 2014 07:36, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript:wrote: http://www.novaspivack.com/uncategorized/consciousness-is-not-a-computation-2 He could make similar arguments claiming consciousness is not chemistry. In that case, he would still be correct. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Nova Spivack on 'Consciousness is More Fundamental Than Computation'
On 26 March 2014 10:59, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: On Monday, March 24, 2014 5:13:26 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On 25 March 2014 07:36, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.novaspivack.com/uncategorized/consciousness- is-not-a-computation-2 He could make similar arguments claiming consciousness is not chemistry. In that case, he would still be correct. He would be correct, but the argument is not that consciousness is chemistry or that consciousness is electronic circuits, it is that consciousness can be associated with electronic systems such as computers in the same way that it is associated with chemical systems such as brains. This is even consistent with theories claiming that consciousness is primary or that consciousness exists as a separate non-physical entity. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Nova Spivack on 'Consciousness is More Fundamental Than Computation'
On Tuesday, March 25, 2014 11:42:03 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 24 Mar 2014, at 21:36, Craig Weinberg wrote: http://www.novaspivack.com/uncategorized/consciousness-is-not-a-computation-2 Come on, the guy believe in Aristotelian theology, clearly without knowing it, and he believes that a computer is material, etc. Then his argument is along the line of begging the question entirely on consciousness, ... and on matter. He's just another example of the growing number of people who are familiar with AI from the inside who are willing to admit that consciousness does not arise through computation. Craig Bruno -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com javascript:. To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.comjavascript: . Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Nova Spivack on 'Consciousness is More Fundamental Than Computation'
On 25 March 2014 07:36, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.novaspivack.com/uncategorized/consciousness-is-not-a-computation-2 He could make similar arguments claiming consciousness is not chemistry. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Nova Spivack on 'Consciousness is More Fundamental Than Computation'
He gives six evidences. First, he falls for quantum pseudoscience. Second, he says that he personally failed to make AI when he tried and incorrectly implies that difficulty means impossibility. Third, he brings up the hard problem and uses it to make an argument from ignorance. Fourth, he says he doesn't know how to define what he means by consciousness, and then makes another argument from ignorance. Fifth, he repeats the mistaken Berkeley's Master argument. Sixth, he falls for NDE pseudoscience. Unconvincing. On Monday, March 24, 2014 3:36:43 PM UTC-5, Craig Weinberg wrote: http://www.novaspivack.com/uncategorized/consciousness-is-not-a-computation-2 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
