Re: Re: A truce: if atheism/materialism is an "as if" universe
Hi Bruno Marchal You can write a chemical equation (theoretically) that will not work in the real world.. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/19/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-12-19, 09:49:53 Subject: Re: A truce: if atheism/materialism is an "as if" universe Hi Roger, On 17 Dec 2012, at 14:05, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal There seems to be some sort of prejudice given to "proof" or "theory" . As a scientist, all I have to do is to weigh myself and report that to you. Data, in my book at least, always rules over theory and assumptions. But data are already in part the result of theoretical constructions, with millions years old prewired theories in our "Darwinian" brain. Data are very important, but theories too. We are ourselves sort of "natural" hypotheses. We are data and theories ourselves, I would say, and the frontier between what is data and what is not is fuzzy, and quasi relative. This has to be so from pure theoretical computer science. I can explain more if you want, but this will be apparent in some explanations I intend to send (asap, but not so soon) on the FOAR list. Keep also in mind the dream argument which explains that we cannot be sure if any data is a genuine data. Bruno [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/17/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-12-16, 09:59:56 Subject: Re: A truce: if atheism/materialism is an "as if" universe On 16 Dec 2012, at 14:48, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal I probably agree, but what is the primitive physical universe ? Any conception of the physical universe in case you assume its existence in the TOE (explicitly or implicity). A non primitive physical universe is a physical universe whose existence, or appearance, is explained in a theory which does not assume it. My (logical) point is that if we assume the CTM, then the physical universe cannot be primitive, but emerge or supervene on the numbers "dreams" (computation seen from the 1p view). Bruno [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/16/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-12-16, 04:40:19 Subject: Re: A truce: if atheism/materialism is an "as if" universe On 06 Dec 2012, at 15:00, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King OK, after thinking it over, it seems there's two ways of thinking about L's metaphysics. 1) (My way) The Idealist way, that being L's metaphysics as is. 2) (Your way) The atheist/materialist way, that being the usual atheist/materialistc view of the universe --- as long as you realize that strictly speaking this is not correct, but the universe acts "as if" there's no God. I have trouble with this view in speaking of "mental space", but I suppose you can consider mental states to exist "as if" they are real. L's metaphysics has no conflicts with the phenomenol world (the physical world you see and that of science), but L would say that strictly speaking, the phenomenol world is not real, only its monadic representation is real. I have not yet worked Bruno's view into this scheme, but a first guess is that Bruno's world is 2). Atheism is a variant of christinanism. The atheists believe in the god MATTER (primitive physical universe), and seems to make sense only of the most naive conception of the Christian God, even if it is to deny it. I am personally not an atheists at all as I do not believe in primitive matter. I am agnostic, but I can prove that the CTM is incompatible with that belief. I do believe in the God of Plato (Truth). Bruno [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/6/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-12-05, 19:51:28 Subject: Re: a paper on Leibnizian mathematical ideas On 12/5/2012 1:01 PM, Richard Ruquist wrote: L's monads have perception. They sense the entire universe. On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 12:45 PM, Roger Clough wrote: > Hi Stephen P. King > > > God isn't artificially inserted into L's metaphysics, > it's a necessary part, because everything else (the monads) > afre blind and passive. Just as necessary as the One is to Plato's > metaphysics. > > > > Hi Richard, Yes, the monads have an entire universe as its perception. What distinguishes monads from each other is their 'point of view' of a universe. One has to consider the idea of closure for a monad, my conjecture is that the content of perception of a monad must be representable as an complete atomic Boolean algebra.
Re: Re: A truce: if atheism/materialism is an "as if" universe
Hi Bruno Marchal There seems to be some sort of prejudice given to "proof" or "theory" . As a scientist, all I have to do is to weigh myself and report that to you. Data, in my book at least, always rules over theory and assumptions. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/17/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-12-16, 09:59:56 Subject: Re: A truce: if atheism/materialism is an "as if" universe On 16 Dec 2012, at 14:48, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal I probably agree, but what is the primitive physical universe ? Any conception of the physical universe in case you assume its existence in the TOE (explicitly or implicity). A non primitive physical universe is a physical universe whose existence, or appearance, is explained in a theory which does not assume it. My (logical) point is that if we assume the CTM, then the physical universe cannot be primitive, but emerge or supervene on the numbers "dreams" (computation seen from the 1p view). Bruno [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/16/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-12-16, 04:40:19 Subject: Re: A truce: if atheism/materialism is an "as if" universe On 06 Dec 2012, at 15:00, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King OK, after thinking it over, it seems there's two ways of thinking about L's metaphysics. 1) (My way) The Idealist way, that being L's metaphysics as is. 2) (Your way) The atheist/materialist way, that being the usual atheist/materialistc view of the universe --- as long as you realize that strictly speaking this is not correct, but the universe acts "as if" there's no God. I have trouble with this view in speaking of "mental space", but I suppose you can consider mental states to exist "as if" they are real. L's metaphysics has no conflicts with the phenomenol world (the physical world you see and that of science), but L would say that strictly speaking, the phenomenol world is not real, only its monadic representation is real. I have not yet worked Bruno's view into this scheme, but a first guess is that Bruno's world is 2). Atheism is a variant of christinanism. The atheists believe in the god MATTER (primitive physical universe), and seems to make sense only of the most naive conception of the Christian God, even if it is to deny it. I am personally not an atheists at all as I do not believe in primitive matter. I am agnostic, but I can prove that the CTM is incompatible with that belief. I do believe in the God of Plato (Truth). Bruno [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/6/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-12-05, 19:51:28 Subject: Re: a paper on Leibnizian mathematical ideas On 12/5/2012 1:01 PM, Richard Ruquist wrote: L's monads have perception. They sense the entire universe. On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 12:45 PM, Roger Clough wrote: > Hi Stephen P. King > > > God isn't artificially inserted into L's metaphysics, > it's a necessary part, because everything else (the monads) > afre blind and passive. Just as necessary as the One is to Plato's > metaphysics. > > > > Hi Richard, Yes, the monads have an entire universe as its perception. What distinguishes monads from each other is their 'point of view' of a universe. One has to consider the idea of closure for a monad, my conjecture is that the content of perception of a monad must be representable as an complete atomic Boolean algebra. -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/ev
Re: Re: A truce: if atheism/materialism is an "as if" universe
Hi Bruno Marchal I probably agree, but what is the primitive physical universe ? [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/16/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-12-16, 04:40:19 Subject: Re: A truce: if atheism/materialism is an "as if" universe On 06 Dec 2012, at 15:00, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King OK, after thinking it over, it seems there's two ways of thinking about L's metaphysics. 1) (My way) The Idealist way, that being L's metaphysics as is. 2) (Your way) The atheist/materialist way, that being the usual atheist/materialistc view of the universe --- as long as you realize that strictly speaking this is not correct, but the universe acts "as if" there's no God. I have trouble with this view in speaking of "mental space", but I suppose you can consider mental states to exist "as if" they are real. L's metaphysics has no conflicts with the phenomenol world (the physical world you see and that of science), but L would say that strictly speaking, the phenomenol world is not real, only its monadic representation is real. I have not yet worked Bruno's view into this scheme, but a first guess is that Bruno's world is 2). Atheism is a variant of christinanism. The atheists believe in the god MATTER (primitive physical universe), and seems to make sense only of the most naive conception of the Christian God, even if it is to deny it. I am personally not an atheists at all as I do not believe in primitive matter. I am agnostic, but I can prove that the CTM is incompatible with that belief. I do believe in the God of Plato (Truth). Bruno [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/6/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-12-05, 19:51:28 Subject: Re: a paper on Leibnizian mathematical ideas On 12/5/2012 1:01 PM, Richard Ruquist wrote: L's monads have perception. They sense the entire universe. On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 12:45 PM, Roger Clough wrote: > Hi Stephen P. King > > > God isn't artificially inserted into L's metaphysics, > it's a necessary part, because everything else (the monads) > afre blind and passive. Just as necessary as the One is to Plato's > metaphysics. > > > > Hi Richard, Yes, the monads have an entire universe as its perception. What distinguishes monads from each other is their 'point of view' of a universe. One has to consider the idea of closure for a monad, my conjecture is that the content of perception of a monad must be representable as an complete atomic Boolean algebra. -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: A truce: if atheism/materialism is an "as if" universe
Hi Stephen P. King You're right, I short-changed Bruno. He is actually an Idealist like me. And my apologies for calling you a an atheist/materialist. I seem to have been having a bad day. You and I seem to differ principally, if I understand you corrrectly, in that you believe in local dermination/causation while I believe that such causation is (and has to be, because ideas aren't causal) only apparent. To go back to my orchestra analogy, you believe that everything is fine as long as each correctly plays his score, while I believe that an overall conductor (the supreme monad) is needed for maintaining coordination and for composing the score in the first place. Your local governor appears to be "a set of relations". L's would also neccesarily include a higher-order governor (the Conductor) to insure that a pre-established harmony exists between sets, as well as insuring that each set ansd its laws are carried out properly. Are synchhronized. In short, you seem to have no means of overall synchronizing the actions of sets. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/8/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-12-06, 14:02:33 Subject: Re: A truce: if atheism/materialism is an "as if" universe On 12/6/2012 9:00 AM, Roger Clough wrote: > Hi Stephen P. King > OK, after thinking it over, it seems there's two ways of thinking > about L's metaphysics. > 1) (My way) The Idealist way, that being L's metaphysics as is. > 2) (Your way) The atheist/materialist way, that being the usual > atheist/materialistc view of the universe --- as long as you > realize that strictly speaking this is not correct, but the universe > acts "as if" there's no God. Dear Roger, It is not "atheist/materialist" at all, my way. It is anti-special, in the sense that the potential of the One must be immanent in all of the Omniverse, not to be confined to special occasions/locations. > I have trouble with this view > in speaking of "mental space", but I suppose you can > consider mental states to exist "as if" they are real. Your thoughts are easily seen to be a "mental space" when one understand that a 'space' is just a set plus some structure of relations. > L's metaphysics has no conflicts with the phenomenal > world (the physical world you see and that of science), > but L would say that strictly speaking, the phenomenol world is > not real, only its monadic representation is real. yes, but Monads offer a very different ontological vision. It is not the "atoms in a void" vision at all, and yet allows for the appearance of 'atoms in a void' as a mode of perception. > I have not yet worked Bruno's view into this scheme, but > a first guess is that Bruno's world is 2). Actually, Bruno's view is Idealist! -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
