[Evolution] FINAL REMINDER

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

This list is now closing and future posts will bounce.

For details, please see:

https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/2022-November/msg00181.html

poc
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[Evolution] New mailing list reminder

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

This is just a head's up that the new list is now available for
subscription, see:

https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/2022-November/msg00181.html

We've had some sign-ups in the last day or so but most people still
haven't bothered. It's important to know that when this (OLD) list is
shut down, it could happen without warning. It's not under our control,
and we've been told that once it happens any posts here will simply
bounce. Of course if we get an update on this we will post it.

Due to the uncertainty, I'm going enable posting to the NEW list as of
now. Once again, please do *not* cross-post to both lists.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] New Mailing List

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Mon, 2022-11-21 at 20:03 +0100, Milan Crha via evolution-list wrote:
> On Mon, 2022-11-21 at 12:20 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > The new list information page can be found at:
> > 
> > https://lists.osuosl.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-users
> 
> Hi,
> I updated the Wiki page:
> https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Evolution#Online_Support
> 
> and added the evolution-users list to the user documentation:
> https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/evolution/-/commit/ded1ecd696f83b31cd33a431afac2da336a93906
> 
> It will be shown in 3.47.1 and later versions, thus released as part
> of
> the 3.48.0 stable series.
> 
> There are still places where the old list is mentioned (like the
> previous versions, in long term support distros and so on), but
> there's
> nothing I can do about it.

Thanks Milan.

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[Evolution] New Mailing List

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

As most of you will be aware, the GNOME Project has announced that its
mailing lists, including this one, are to be transitioned from the
Mailman system to a Discourse (web-based) forum.

The new forum has already been set up and can be found at:

https://discourse.gnome.org/tag/evolution

Note that Discourse does support a mailing list based access method,
but that isn't its main focus. so for those of us who prefer a more
traditional mailing list along the current model, we (the moderators,
with input from Milan) have asked the Oregon State University Open
Systems Lab (OSUOSL) to host a new list for Evolution users, and they
have agreed.

The new list information page can be found at:

https://lists.osuosl.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-users

We'll refer to these various instances as follows:
OLD: the current list (evolution-list@gnome.org)
NEW: the new list (evolution-us...@lists.osuosl.org)
DIS: the new Discourse instance (see above)

Some points to note:

 * Users can subscribe to the NEW list from now, but for the time being
   posts will be held (deferred) until nearer the time the OLD list is
   shut down. This is to enable a smoother transition of the archive,
   hopefully without loss of data. 
 * Membership of the NEW list is entirely voluntary. We decided not to
   auto-subscribe anyone, so if you're interested, you need to do this
   yourself (see the NEW list page above). The NEW list has uploaded
   the existing archives from the OLD list.
 * At some point in the next few days, mail to the OLD list will start
to bounce. It's currently unclear if we'll get a warning before this
happens.
* In the interests of continuity, we encourage people to keep the same
email address on the NEW list as they used on the OLD one.
 * You can of course subscribe to DIS as well as NEW, but please DO NOT
   CROSS-POST between any of these lists. Cross-posting has a lot of
   potential for confusion as replies will by default also be cross
   posted, often leading to incomplete threads on one or more forums.
   If you want to post something in more than one place, choose one
   primary and then refer to it by URL in the other places.

Thanks to all who collaborated on this, especially Lance Albertson of
OSUOSL who has been indispensable in getting this to work.

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Re: [Evolution] A reminder of a "plan B" mailing list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Fri, 2022-11-18 at 07:23 -0600, Overthefalls via evolution-list
wrote:
> On Wed, 2022-11-16 at 11:37 +0000, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > Note that we've decided
> > not to automatically carry over subscriptions to the new list, i.e.
> > users will have to re-subscribe once the list is ready. This is
> > mainly
> > to avoid objections about copying people's addresses and security
> > information to a new site.
> > 
> > We expect the current list to continue as part of the Gnome
> > Discourse
> > system, but we aren't in control of that. 
> 
> Does that mean that list subscribers will automatically have some
> kind
> of account setup with discourse, do you know? For those who object to
> discourse, it may be safer to unsubscribe now and check the wiki for
> further details if that's the case.

Based on my own experience (and Milan's) I'm 99% sure that this will
not happen. You'll have to register with the Discourse system. 

GNOME have said that once the transition happens, mail to the current
list address will simply bounce.

Expect a more complete announcement soon.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] A reminder of a "plan B" mailing list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2022-11-16 at 17:32 -0600, Tim McConnell via evolution-list
wrote:
> On Wed, 2022-11-16 at 22:09 +0000, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > On Wed, 2022-11-16 at 15:59 -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
> > > Patrick O'Callaghan said on Wed, 16 Nov 2022 11:37:33 +
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Hopefully the new list will be ready to go in the next few
> > > > days.
> > > > We'll
> > > > make a separate announcement when that happens. Note that we've
> > > > decided
> > > > not to automatically carry over subscriptions to the new list,
> > > > i.e.
> > > > users will have to re-subscribe once the list is ready. This is
> > > > mainly
> > > > to avoid objections about copying people's addresses and
> > > > security
> > > > information to a new site.
> > > 
> > > Understood, but how will you tell all of us the subscription
> > > process
> > > if
> > > the current list is no longer postable and we don't get on
> > > discourse?
> > 
> > We expect the new list to be up and running before the switchover
> > to
> > Discourse. We will also very likely make an announcement on the new
> > Discourse instance whenever it's live.

We will of course announce the new list here once it's live.

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Re: [Evolution] A reminder of a "plan B" mailing list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2022-11-16 at 15:59 -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
> Patrick O'Callaghan said on Wed, 16 Nov 2022 11:37:33 +
> 
> 
> > 
> > Hopefully the new list will be ready to go in the next few days.
> > We'll
> > make a separate announcement when that happens. Note that we've
> > decided
> > not to automatically carry over subscriptions to the new list, i.e.
> > users will have to re-subscribe once the list is ready. This is
> > mainly
> > to avoid objections about copying people's addresses and security
> > information to a new site.
> 
> Understood, but how will you tell all of us the subscription process
> if
> the current list is no longer postable and we don't get on discourse?

We expect the new list to be up and running before the switchover to
Discourse. We will also very likely make an announcement on the new
Discourse instance whenever it's live.

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Re: [Evolution] What do we do now? V4 - need to decide.

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2022-11-16 at 08:54 +0800, Luigi Cantoni via evolution-list
wrote:
> Hi all,
> as Steve has mention it is my understanding also that at any moment
> now
> this list will stop.
> 
> Please could the moderators/admin/main contributors please have a
> discussion and decide where we move to.
> 
> If we can be automatically moved great but not required.
> I am very sure the people on the list will follow if we are given the
> statement "This list is now at ., please subscribe (or
> whatever)".

See Milan and my replies within that thread.

Please don't break threading. When the new list is ready, we'll
announce it as a separate posting.

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Re: [Evolution] A reminder of a "plan B" mailing list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2022-11-16 at 08:46 +0100, Milan Crha via evolution-list wrote:
> On Tue, 2022-11-15 at 19:40 -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
> > At any moment now posting access to this mailing list can be
> > removed
> > without further warning, so once again I want to make you aware of
> > the alt-evolution mailing list, which is a "plan B".
> 
> Hi,
> what a nice coincidence. We are currently in the process of setting
> up
> the new list, poc may send a note about it, unless he'll consider
> this
> mine as a replacement.
> 
> First of all, I've got a note from a GNOME admin that the lists will
> possibly shut down within 7 to 10 days since yesterday. There should
> be
> set up a new list meanwhile.
> 
> While I've been very keen on the freedesktop.org hosting, we received
> a
> response from them that they do not intent to host any desktop
> applications in their mailing lists, thus this site is out of
> question.
> 
> There is an ongoing work to setup the list under lists.osuosl.org,
> with
> a name evolution-us...@lists.osuosl.org . It's not done yet, there
> will
> be a separate email about it once it's done. This is a very fresh
> information, it happened roughly 9 hours ago (which is why I begun
> this
> email with "what a nice coincidence"). I guess the new name is fine,
> but if anyone has a better suggestion or an objection, then do not
> hesitate and express your opinion on it.
> 
> I plan to update the user documentation and the Wiki page with the
> new
> official mailing list once the things are set up, though the users
> with
> an old/ancient Evolution, even the current online help, will still
> reference this list. There's not much I can do about it, I'm afraid.
> 
> I'd like to thank poc, as he's leading this effort and he does all
> the
> paper work behind it.
> 
> That being said: stay tuned, you'll be updated when the things are
> ready.

Yes, I was about to say much the same but you got in ahead of me Milan
:-)

Hopefully the new list will be ready to go in the next few days. We'll
make a separate announcement when that happens. Note that we've decided
not to automatically carry over subscriptions to the new list, i.e.
users will have to re-subscribe once the list is ready. This is mainly
to avoid objections about copying people's addresses and security
information to a new site.

We expect the current list to continue as part of the Gnome Discourse
system, but we aren't in control of that. This means that there will be
(at least) two lists going forward, which is unfortunate but
unavoidable.

Stay tuned.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] What do I do now? V2

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Mon, 2022-11-07 at 18:30 +0100, Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list
wrote:
> On Mon, 2022-11-07 at 09:07 -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
> > quoted context
> 
> Hi,
> 
> right now the same topic is endlessly discussed on
> questi...@freebsd.org
> and on evolution-list@gnome.org . It is discussed every now and then
> on
> every computer related mailing list. On questi...@freebsd.org and on
> evolution-list@gnome.org it's not discussed for the first time, it's
> not
> discussed for the second time, it's not discussed for the...
> 
> If somebody is new to a computer related mailing list or if somebody
> every now and then makes a mistake, be polite. If a subscriber wants
> to
> change common computer mailing list's posting style rules, ignore the
> subscriber.
> 
> If an English language mailing list is to old fashioned, because it
> isn't hip anymore to write from left to right and from top to bottom
> or
> to reply by using context, people are free to use a hip media.
> Everybody
> is free trying to solve a technical issue by exchanging ideas with
> spaghetti formatted HTML text and thumbs up icons.
> 
> The next step is to use software written in
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaghetti_code . 
> 
> An insider tip, spaghetti code is the new black.

I think it's probably better to drop this discussion, at least for now.
We are in the process of trying to decide whether to set up a new list.
If people want to discuss correct usage on that new list, if and when
it happens, then fine, but for now let's all take a step back.

Thanks.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] What do I do now? V2

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Mon, 2022-11-07 at 11:56 +0100, Torsten Krah via evolution-list
wrote:
> Am Montag, dem 07.11.2022 um 10:40 + schrieb Patrick O'Callaghan:
> > Sorry, but it really isn't at all clear unless the reader scrolls
> > back
> > to look at the earlier mail you are replying to, which for some
> > people
> > might mean looking at the archive. That's why we encourage people
> > to
> > always quote the relevant part when replying.
> > 
> > poc
> 
> I don't expect that people are scrolling if they use the threading
> info
> on the mail which puts it where it does belong in evolution - we're
> on
> the evolution list, right ;) - with threaded view on it is placed
> where
> it should and that people archive their mails on an ongoing
> discussion
> ... may happen yes, but in that case => yes they need the archive if
> they want to have context - or just ignore it ;)
> 
> So we can agree to disagree on that matter (partly) and move on ;-).

I think it's unwise to assume that everyone reads mail in the same way,
or that everyone keeps every ongoing thread in their mailbox (even
assuming there is a precise meaning for "ongoing").

poc
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Re: [Evolution] What do I do now? V2

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Mon, 2022-11-07 at 08:47 +0100, Torsten Krah via evolution-list
wrote:
> Am Mittwoch, dem 02.11.2022 um 20:09 + schrieb Patrick
> O'Callaghan:
> > What option? Please quote some context when replying, otherwise
> > it's
> > not clear what you mean.
> 
> In general you are right, but that answer was a reply to only one
> option available in that mail from Greg asking if that would be
> possible as well, so it is clear even without quoting it - just to be
> complete:
> 
> ...
> re-homed to a freedesktop.org list
> ...

Sorry, but it really isn't at all clear unless the reader scrolls back
to look at the earlier mail you are replying to, which for some people
might mean looking at the archive. That's why we encourage people to
always quote the relevant part when replying.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sun, 2022-11-06 at 06:07 +, Mike wrote:
> I purged evolution from the PC, deleted the .config/evolution
> folders, deleted the trash, rebooted, reinstalled at 12:36 and ran it
> at 12:37. I did not import the backup file, so that isn't the
> problem.
> None of these errors are in the VM install though the VM install
> happened only five days ago, both via ftp.debian.org via apt-get onto
> the same computer (one instance the VirtualBox Debian 11.5 and the
> other on the actual hardware running Debian 11.5) 
[...]

This is really quite difficult to read. Please refrain from posting in
HTML on this list, or replying on HTML formatting to make the post
readable. The standard used here is plain text, and most people don't
even look at the HTML version if it exists.

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Re: [Evolution] What do I do now? V2

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sat, 2022-11-05 at 14:36 +0100, Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list
wrote:
> On Sat, 2022-11-05 at 14:26 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> > 1.
> > https://osuosl.org/services/hosting/
> > https://osuosl.org/request-hosting/
> 
> The mc mailing list already migrated from gnome.org to OSU OSL.
> Yury V. Zaytsev yury at shurup.com seems to be the one responsible
> for
> doing it. Consider to ask Yury V. Zaytsev.
> 
> https://lists.midnight-commander.org/pipermail/mc/2022-October/005510.html
> https://lists.midnight-commander.org/mailman/listinfo/mc

I've contacted OSUOSL about this. Let's see what they say.

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Re: [Evolution] What do I do now? V2

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Thu, 2022-11-03 at 12:53 +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Thu, 2022-11-03 at 08:03 +0100, Milan Crha via evolution-list
> wrote:
> > On Wed, 2022-11-02 at 20:20 -0400, Jim Popovitch via evolution-list
> > wrote:
> > > I offered, and still do offer, to host mail.gnome.org.
> > 
> > Hi,
> > thanks for the offer, and even I do not speak for the GNOME admins,
> > do
> > not count with it, they are not going to do/allow it.
> > 
> > What about co-moderating the new evo list, wherever it will be?
> > 
> > Speaking of which, as other mailing list(s) are moving to the
> > freedesktop.org (the network manager list had been mentioned here),
> > I
> > think, and believe, it would be a perfect fit for the evo list as
> > well.
> 
> I tend to agree. Although munging the DNS record would be the most
> painless solution, I really doubt that Gnome would allow it as they
> would be in effect handing over responsibility for part of their own
> domain, at least in terms of perception.
> 
> If we can get a Gnome admin to provide a membership list in a format
> suitable for upload to Mailman3, I think this is a promising
> direction
> to go in.

I mailed the freedesktop people a couple of days ago:

https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/sitewranglers/2022-November/013286.html

but have had no reply.

Possibly that isn't the right mailing address, but it was the only one
I could see that seemed relevant. If anyone has more insight, please
let me know.

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Re: [Evolution] Why are my messages being tagged as spam and being moderated? on this list??

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sat, 2022-11-05 at 02:15 +, Pete Biggs wrote:
> 
> Camels and straws come to mind ...

Just noticed this and cleared the block.

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Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sat, 2022-11-05 at 02:12 +, Pete Biggs wrote:
> 
> Not that it really matters now, but top-posting & HTML mail is
> frowned
> on here ...
> 
> And your quoting levels are screwed up ...
> 
> And you really should trim posts to just relevant stuff.  You aren't
> inhabiting an Outlook only world these days ...
> 
> On Fri, 2022-11-04 at 23:46 +, Mike wrote:
> > > Yes the VM is, and was, off.
> > > 
> > > And anyway, both are set to leave mail on the server for six days
> > > during this rollout of the new platform. So it should not make a
> > > difference. :-) I have a mail app running on my Adroid Cell phone
> > > and it loaded mail right along with MS Outlook for many years
> > > without an issue. So I fail to see how that would or should
> > > matter.
> 
> Because sometimes another application grabs an email and marks it as
> read before your Evolution can see it. 
> 
> Anyway, in another email that seems to have been tagged as spam and
> is
> awaiting moderation I said that you need to look at the bar above the
> message list and make sure the "Show:" drop down says "All Messages"
> and not something like "Read Messages".
> 
> But I see yet another of my messages has been tagged as spam for no
> good reason.  You might, eventually, see this message ...

Pete, I've no idea why some of your posts were held for moderation.
I've approved them and they should have appeared by now.

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Re: [Evolution] What do I do now? V2

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Thu, 2022-11-03 at 19:52 +0100, Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list
wrote:
> On Thu, 2022-11-03 at 13:47 +0000, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > On Wed, 2022-11-02 at 20:23 +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > > There may be such things in Mailman3, but currently we have
> > > Mailman2
> > > and Gnome isn't going to change it.
> > 
> > Turns out that freedesktop.org also uses Mailman2. However that
> > version
> > does allow the list owner to upload a list of subscribers,
> > something I
> > hadn't noticed before now.
> 
> I pointed this out earlier and recommended to ask if they will
> migrate
> to Mailman 3 or a similar mailing list software or if they consider
> to
> migrate to a forum software, too.

I'll bear that in mind.

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Re: [Evolution] What do I do now? V2

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2022-11-02 at 20:23 +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> There may be such things in Mailman3, but currently we have Mailman2
> and Gnome isn't going to change it.

Turns out that freedesktop.org also uses Mailman2. However that version
does allow the list owner to upload a list of subscribers, something I
hadn't noticed before now.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] What do I do now? V2

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Thu, 2022-11-03 at 08:03 +0100, Milan Crha via evolution-list wrote:
> On Wed, 2022-11-02 at 20:20 -0400, Jim Popovitch via evolution-list
> wrote:
> > I offered, and still do offer, to host mail.gnome.org.
> 
> Hi,
> thanks for the offer, and even I do not speak for the GNOME admins,
> do
> not count with it, they are not going to do/allow it.
> 
> What about co-moderating the new evo list, wherever it will be?
> 
> Speaking of which, as other mailing list(s) are moving to the
> freedesktop.org (the network manager list had been mentioned here), I
> think, and believe, it would be a perfect fit for the evo list as
> well.

I tend to agree. Although munging the DNS record would be the most
painless solution, I really doubt that Gnome would allow it as they
would be in effect handing over responsibility for part of their own
domain, at least in terms of perception.

If we can get a Gnome admin to provide a membership list in a format
suitable for upload to Mailman3, I think this is a promising direction
to go in.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] What do I do now? V2

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2022-11-02 at 18:02 +0100, Jaroslaw Rafa via evolution-list
wrote:
> Dnia  2.11.2022 o godz. 12:36:54 Paul Smith pisze:
> > to create such a list, and (b) someone with admin privileges to the
> > current list to get all the subscriber emails so they can be bulk-
> > added.  I know that moderators don't have such privileges (I run
> > some
> > mailman lists myself as an admin, with some moderators helping).
> 
> It depends on the settings of the particular list. You can configure
> the
> list so that even any subscriber has access to the subscribers list.
> 
> Of course, this list can be quite possibly configured so that only
> admin has
> access to that list.

The moderators can see all the subscribers. However that data is not
available to us as a simple text file, CSV file or database, but as a
set of web pages, ordered alphabetically. There are no facilities for
dumping the entire list, or for uploading a list of subscribers. There
may be such things in Mailman3, but currently we have Mailman2 and
Gnome isn't going to change it.

So sending individual messages to each member means doing it manually
850 or so times or writing some web-scraping software to get the info.
No thanks.

Clearly the transition to Discourse will use some automated procedure,
but that's under the control of Gnome admins, not us.

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Re: [Evolution] What do I do now? V2

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2022-11-02 at 17:26 +0100, Torsten Krah via evolution-list
wrote:
> +1 from me for this option if it is possible to do with that list as
> well.

What option? Please quote some context when replying, otherwise it's
not clear what you mean.

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Re: [Evolution] What do I do now? V2

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2022-11-02 at 10:45 -0500, Greg Oliver via evolution-list
wrote:
> I know I said I would not chime in again regarding the mailing list,
> but I also subscribe to one other list "network-manager" that is/was
> housed on gnome infrastructure.  Today I received a very simple email
> from it that stated it was being re-homed to a freedesktop.org list
> and a simple reply to that email (with nothing else) subscribed me to
> it.
> 
> I think that should be possible here as well, no?

Not sure how that works. Was that email addressed directly to you, or
was it a general post to the list?

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Re: [Evolution] What do I do now? V2

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2022-11-02 at 16:27 +0100, Milan Crha via evolution-list wrote:
> On Wed, 2022-11-02 at 20:23 +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
> > It is clear that the vast majority simply do not want a mailing
> > list.
> 
> Hi,
> well, I believe that's a wrong assumption. You might also consider
> that
> if "random people create random list" is not the right thing to do.
> The
> community should work together, not to be split, because some random
> folks think they do the best for the community even they do not wait
> for the community decision.  Okay, yes, there is not much time,
> that's
> true, but still. As had been said by someone, there can be made also
> a
> Discourse post about where the "real" new mailing list is handled.
> 
> That's the reason why I didn't act on my own and did not create the
> list myself, on a place I would prefer. I want to be sure the people
> are willing to move that way first. And there are supposed to be
> multiple moderators/admins, as poc said. I'm not the admin at the
> moment and I'd prefer not to be. I've no idea how long I'll stay with
> the project and my free time is kinda limited, as for everybody else.
> 
> poc, there had been multiple people offering help even with the
> infrastructure. In case the current list admins do not respond, say
> till the 6th (this Sunday), would it make sense to engage those
> folks,
> if they are still willing to co-admin the list, wherever it is? There
> should be a voice from them too, of course. I suppose to make the
> list
> alive will take some time, hence I chose the 6th, to have at least a
> week for it to set up.
> 
> Bret, what about you? Would you be willing to co-admin such list?
> 
> I think there had been at least two other folks mentioned here, but I
> lost their names, I'm sorry. If you read this, please respond.
> 
> Just my personal opinion and thoughts.

I basically agree with all the above. If there is general agreement,
I'm willing to continue as a co-moderator, but equally willing to pass
that on to someone else.

In case it's not sufficiently clear: we are moderators, not
administrators. We have *no power* over the list other than defining
certain policies (e.g. no digests), dealing with spam, and managing
membership. We have nothing to do with the hosting platform or the
Mailman implementation. IOW a decision to set up an alternate list
doesn't rely on us in any way.

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Re: [Evolution] What do I do now? V2

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2022-11-02 at 20:23 +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
> > One thing I can say is that I would not take on the responsibility
> > of
> > managing a new list on my own. Moderating the current list is not a
> > particularly onerous task because much of the infrastructure is
> > provided by Gnome and we interact with it using a Mailman web page.
> > Also, it's shared among three people. However anyone who proposes a
> > new
> > list should be willing to take on the task of administering it.
> 
> This already been taken care of.

It hasn't been "taken care of". You have indeed set up a list, but
others have also mentioned alternatives. What I would hope is that
there be some agreement to avoid fracturing the community more than is
necessary.

> If people choose to disregard what has been done for them, and simply
> keep discussing, and not doing anything about it, then that is their
> choice.
> 
> I will not again mention on this list, that a mailing list has been
> set 
> up, by someone willing to administer it, to which, so far, only about
> thirty people have subscribed.

Not mentioning it is hardly the best way to get sign-ups. I confess
that with the multiple discussions around this in the past couple of
weeks I'd actually forgotten about it (I've also been ill). No doubt
some others are in the same position.

> It is clear that the vast majority simply do not want a mailing list.

I disagree. I think the majority is waiting to see what the majority
wants. This is not uncommon in communities where most people are fairly
passive participants. I also that your own first post on this list
appears to be dated October 23.

> And, with that, I will not mention it again on this list.
> 
> The new list that was set up, has been, now, mentioned enough, by me,
> on this list.

Do you envisage some decision process for any proposed policy changes,
or do you intend to be Benevolent Dictator For Life? What about
moderation? Is that going to be only you?

I'd also question the phrase "the gnomes" in your list's description
page. Perhaps a more diplomatic phrasing would avoid needless sniping.

It may well turn out that your list is the most frictionless option,
and you do have "first mover" advantage, but I think more people should
chip in here.

All the best.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] What do I do now? V2

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2022-11-02 at 08:19 +0800, Luigi Cantoni via evolution-list
wrote:
> Many people have contributed their ideas as to how to move forward so
> I
> hope there is enough now suggested so that we can do that.
> 
> Can I ask the Moderators and those that contribute a lot to this list
> to decide where we migrate to before they shut us down.
> I for one don't what to be left hanging and will happily "follow the
> leaders".

I've contacted the other moderators to see if we can reach a consensus
on this, but have yet to hear back from them. We'll certainly inform
the list if we have something to say.

At the moment, my impression is that everyone is waiting for someone
else to take a decision, and time is passing by. Clearly the moderators
can't simply dictate what's going to happen. As things stand, it
appears to be inevitable that the current list will be discontinued and
that Evolution support will be provided on Discourse, no matter what
any of us think. Therefore the temptation to set up a new list
independent of gnome.org has to be weighed against the probable
fragmentation of the community, which would not be ideal. However it's
not out of the question.

One thing I can say is that I would not take on the responsibility of
managing a new list on my own. Moderating the current list is not a
particularly onerous task because much of the infrastructure is
provided by Gnome and we interact with it using a Mailman web page.
Also, it's shared among three people. However anyone who proposes a new
list should be willing to take on the task of administering it. A
Mailman system would probably be easiest, but it would need to be set
up and populated i.e. users would have to go through the individual
registration system since as Milan pointed out we probably can't simply
import the current membership automatically.

Cheers

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution Freezing and IPv6

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Mon, 2022-10-31 at 13:35 -0400, my-no-spam--- via evolution-list
wrote:
> I've noticed that if I enable IPv6, evolution just hangs opening my
> mail and sometimes just freezes if left open. If I disable IPv6, the
> application performs like a rock star. Any ideas where I might start
> troubleshooting this? I have watched the network connectivity and,
> from
> what I see, it appears that only one of the three connections to the
> remote server actually gets established.

It's unclear whether you're switching while Evo is running, or if you
completely shut it down first.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2022-10-26 at 12:29 +0200, Milan Crha via evolution-list wrote:
> On Wed, 2022-10-26 at 11:13 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > My personal opinion is that the Freedesktop site looks more
> > promising, purely in terms of the number of lists they host
> 
> Hi,
> I kinda like it too. Who's gonna ask there for the conditions of
> adding a new mailing list there, please? As you said, it would be a
> pita to have multiple people asking the same question(s) for the same
> list there. I'm sure I do not want to maintain the list, I do not
> want to be an admin of it, but I can help to gather the information.
> 
> By the way, the page to create a list is accessible. Whether it lets
> me create a new list without asking the freedesktop.org folks I do
> not know, I wasn't brave enough to try to create the list, though I'd
> rather not create the list behind their back. I do not know how these
> things work.

I guess it would make sense for one of the moderators to do it, unless
someone has a better idea. Note that none of us is strictly an "admin",
we just moderate posts when required and have some control over user
access and other aspects of Mailman configuration. I'll consult with
the other two guys to see what they think.

> Partly related, would the new list be named "evolution-users" or
> "evolution-list"? The "evolution-hackers" is going to be shut down,
> there's not much to be written there these days.
> I think "evolution-users" (as suggested by someone else here) is
> good, it may even help to distinguish it from a Darwinism mailing
> list ;)

I'd say "evolution-users" would make sense, on the assumption that we
don't expect the archives to be merged.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 13:09 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > 
> > They do, an example set of headers from one of the replies I got
> > recently:
> > 
> > Reply-To: GNOME Discourse
> > <03e7e14d32e53136f623f8ab8e9...@discourse.gnome.org>
> > Message-ID:
> > 
> > References: 
> 
> The threading information needs some serious work. The References:
> header doesn't match up with the message being replied to, in fact
> the
> only consistent reference is to the
> topic/xx...@discourse.gnome.org ID.
> Consequently there's no real threading in the mail from Discourse,
> everything is at the same level underneath the first mail - and it
> doesn't take much for not even that to work.
> 
> 
> And I still can't find out how to get an email copy of my own posts.
> Is
> that even possible?

I mentioned your objections in a post to the Fedora Users list (which
uses Mailman3), and this was a reply from one of its users:

https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/us...@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/JUIEBVLICRHOEW6IQ34QS4445N6CNNVN/

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2022-10-26 at 07:34 +0200, Milan Crha via evolution-list wrote:
> On Tue, 2022-10-25 at 22:23 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > Can you ask them? Probably better not to have several people asking
> > the same questions.
> 
> Hi,
> I can ask David, the infradead.org person, though I thought I'll keep
> the real paper work to somebody more knowledgeable than me.
> 
> > We'd also need to know if they support migrating the
> > current list membership.
> 
> I won't do that. Let the people decide which sites hold their mail
> addresses. Some may not like being moved to a different site without
> their explicit agreement. People should also choose their mailing
> list password on their own.

Fair enough.

> > I think it would help if they could also host the archive, simply
> > to
> > avoid having it split between two sites, before and after the
> > change.
> 
> While it makes perfect sense for archive searching, I won't do that
> too. When you open
> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/ and
> go to the bottom, then the Download section shows sizes for
> respective
> months since year 2000. Those are gzip compressed .mbox files. For
> example September 2022 shows 511KB compressed and when I decompress
> it,
> it's 947K. I did not count all the years, but I'd rather not use so
> much space on the new site immediately after moving there. That won't
> be good.

I think that would be up to the site admins to decide.

My personal opinion is that the Freedesktop site looks more promising,
purely in terms of the number of lists they host, but I'm fine with
whichever one makes the transition easier.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2022-10-25 at 18:26 +0200, Milan Crha via evolution-list wrote:
> On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 13:09 +0200, Andrea Veri wrote:
> > After the deadline of the end of October Mailman archives will
> > remain
> > alive in read only mode for posterity. If the mailing list was used
> > behind an alias, please let me know so we can re-do the same setup
> > but on Discourse instead.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > P.S All the l10n lists are still pending code changes in damned-
> > lies,
> > the deadline to decommission those lists may slip by a week or two
> > depending how soon those changes will be made available in DL
> > codebase
> 
> Hi,
> I just asked Andrea to keep the evolution-list running a bit longer.
> It's currently postponed to the mid of the November. It gives roughly
> two more weeks to decide where to go, if anywhere.
> 
> My personal opinion is to use a free mailing list service. Expecting
> there will be people not moving to the new location, thus the
> location
> will not turn from free to a paid service is not ideal. It's better
> to
> stay on the safe side, to avoid another move elsewhere in the near or
> far future.
> 

I agree.

> I suggested the two places where other similar/related projects to
> the
> Evolution already have their mailing lists. It might make sense to be
> nearby to them, from my point of view. Neither of those projects are
> developed under the GNOME umbrella, though.
> 
Agreed again.

> I do not know what conditions the freedesktop.org [1] or the
> infradead.org [2] have to accept a new mailing list. It's to be
> discovered by the list admins, if they/you/we agree on any of these
> services. Or other services. When it comes to it, the old good
> SourceForge supports mailing lists as well.
> 
> I do not mind that much, as long as no money is involved. I do not
> think it would be fair to ask any money from the volunteers. Invest
> your wisdom, rather than bugs.

Can you ask them? Probably better not to have several people asking the
same questions. We'd also need to know if they support migrating the
current list membership. I think it would help if they could also host
the archive, simply to avoid having it split between two sites, before
and after the change.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2022-10-25 at 18:59 +0200, Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list
wrote:
> On Tue, 2022-10-25 at 18:26 +0200, Milan Crha via evolution-list
> wrote:
> > My personal opinion is to use a free mailing list service.
> > Expecting
> > there will be people not moving to the new location, thus the
> > location
> > will not turn from free to a paid service is not ideal. It's better
> > to
> > stay on the safe side, to avoid another move elsewhere in the near
> > or
> > far future.
> 
> +1
> 
> > I suggested the two places where other similar/related projects to
> > the
> > Evolution already have their mailing lists. It might make sense to
> > be
> > nearby to them, from my point of view. Neither of those projects
> > are
> > developed under the GNOME umbrella, though.
> > 
> > [1] https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/
> > [2] http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/
> 
> Joking:
> 
> [1] does host more than one controversial project, while [2] does
> host the Mailman mailing list, but the Mailman mailing list is unused
> :D.

They also host several prominent free software lists, including
LibreOffice, Nouveau and gstreamer-* among others.

> A serious concern:
> 
> Both use Mailman 2. Do they soon migrate to Mailman 3 or to Twitter
> and Discourse?

I'll ask them.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Let's unite the power of all mailing list subscribers who are affected by GNOME's ruling

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Mon, 2022-10-24 at 07:46 -0700, Brewster Gillett wrote:
> Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > I briefly used Google Groups a long time ago, though I think it has
> > changed since then. They do offer a fairly broad range of
> > facilities,
> > including email access, admin and moderator roles, and the focus on
> > a
> > specific topic (Evo), but:
> > 
> > * No Reply To List (and I presume no proper List headers, though I
> > haven't checked). Possibly a minor point for some.
> 
> bg:
> 
> It's a low-level irritant. If the sender cares enough (most don't) 
> or knows how to edit their headers (many can't) it can be worked
> around
> easily enough. Those using Evo don't have the problem, obviously.
> > 
> POC:
> 
> > * Members need a Google account to sign up. I anticipate that this
> > would not please some people.
> 
> bg:
> 
> I'm subscribed to a pretty active Google Group, and AFAIK I was
> never required to sign up with a Google account (and would not).

Thanks.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Let's unite the power of all mailing list subscribers who are affected by GNOME's ruling

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Mon, 2022-10-24 at 09:30 -0400, Matt Connell wrote:
> On Mon, 2022-10-24 at 14:11 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa via evolution-list
> wrote:
> > Dnia 24.10.2022 o godz. 12:49:00 Patrick O'Callaghan pisze:
> > > 
> > > I briefly used Google Groups a long time ago, though I think it
> > > has
> > > changed since then. They do offer a fairly broad range of
> > > facilities,
> > > including email access, admin and moderator roles, and the focus
> > > on a
> > > specific topic (Evo), but:
> > > 
> > > * No Reply To List (and I presume no proper List headers, though
> > > I
> > > haven't checked). Possibly a minor point for some.
> > 
> > I participate in a few lists hosted on Google Groups. Usually the
> > Reply-To:
> > header is set to the list address, so there is no problem with
> > replying to
> > the list. I also have checked now last email that I received from a
> > Google
> > Groups hosted list and I see that there are List-ID, List-Post,
> > List-Help,
> > List-Archive and List-Unsubscribe headers.
> > 
> > > * Members need a Google account to sign up. I anticipate that
> > > this
> > > would not please some people.
> > 
> > On the lists I'm subscribed to there are quite a lot of people who
> > don't
> > have a Google account. Maybe this changed recently.
> > 
> > While it seems to be actually required to log in to Google to
> > subscribe to a
> > group via Google Groups web interface, I am pretty sure a group
> > admin can
> > still subscribe anyone, even without a Google account, because I do
> > this all
> > the time on one of the lists where subscription is by admin only.
> > 
> > I'm not sure if the option to subscribe yourself by email (without
> > going to
> > web interface) still works. If yes, then it may be the way to
> > subscribe
> > without a Google account.
> 
> The vim mailing list is on google groups.  No Google account
> required,
> you can subscribe via email, and reply-to-list works with the "group
> reply" button in Evolution as expected.
> 
> Not advocating this solution in any way whatsoever, just commenting.

OK, good to have up-to-date information.

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Re: [Evolution] Let's unite the power of all mailing list subscribers who are affected by GNOME's ruling

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Mon, 2022-10-24 at 14:11 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa via evolution-list
wrote:
> Dnia 24.10.2022 o godz. 12:49:00 Patrick O'Callaghan pisze:
> > 
> > I briefly used Google Groups a long time ago, though I think it has
> > changed since then. They do offer a fairly broad range of
> > facilities,
> > including email access, admin and moderator roles, and the focus on
> > a
> > specific topic (Evo), but:
> > 
> > * No Reply To List (and I presume no proper List headers, though I
> > haven't checked). Possibly a minor point for some.
> 
> I participate in a few lists hosted on Google Groups. Usually the
> Reply-To:
> header is set to the list address, so there is no problem with
> replying to
> the list. I also have checked now last email that I received from a
> Google
> Groups hosted list and I see that there are List-ID, List-Post, List-
> Help,
> List-Archive and List-Unsubscribe headers.

That's good to know.

> > * Members need a Google account to sign up. I anticipate that this
> > would not please some people.
> 
> On the lists I'm subscribed to there are quite a lot of people who
> don't
> have a Google account. Maybe this changed recently.

I'm going by what the online Help says, but it may not be up to date.

> While it seems to be actually required to log in to Google to
> subscribe to a
> group via Google Groups web interface, I am pretty sure a group admin
> can
> still subscribe anyone, even without a Google account, because I do
> this all
> the time on one of the lists where subscription is by admin only.

It would be quite burdensome to require admin approval for signing up,
so I'd hope this could be done directly by the users as at present. I'd
also hope that membership lists could be imported from Mailman.

> I'm not sure if the option to subscribe yourself by email (without
> going to
> web interface) still works. If yes, then it may be the way to
> subscribe
> without a Google account.
> 
> > * The group address is directly associated with googlemail.com,
> 
> You mean googlegroups.com, not googlemail.com ?

Yes, I think so. PEBKAC.

poc

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Re: [Evolution] [rebellion attempt] Fight back!

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Mon, 2022-10-24 at 08:25 +, Werner LEMBERG via evolution-list
wrote:
> 
> > a lot of the Evolution mailing list members, including myself,
> > tested the mailing list ability of Discourse. I was not allowed to
> > start a new thread by email, because my gamification level was 0.
> > You are allowed to start a new thread by email, after you reached
> > level 1.  This is not the only annoyance. Discourse GNOME has got
> > no
> > real mailing list ability.
> 
> Given that mc is a GNU project, why not using the most natural site,
> `gnu.org`, for a mailing list?  An additional bonus is that the
> gnu.org mailing list archives come with a nice – and working! –
> search
> interface.

I don't see anything on the front page about mailing lists. Can you be
more specific?

(I would hope that hosting the list on gnu.org wouldn't subject us to
harangues about specific distros or other software not being properly
free.)

poc
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Re: [Evolution] [Gimp-user] Let's unite the power of all mailing list subscribers who are affected by GNOME's ruling

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 14:49 -0500, Daniel Smith via evolution-list
wrote:
> Here’s another article about it. My experience is they have a very
> wide
> vest amount of information there. I think it personally it would be a
> good
> idea to put your list there because a lot of people from other
> technologies
> could find out about it and you could find out about them too.
> There’s a
> whole Lotta stuff there over the years.
> https://marc.info/?q=about

It's an archive. Gnome have already said that the existing lists will
be archived by them after transition, so I don't think there's anything
to be gained here.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Let's unite the power of all mailing list subscribers who are affected by GNOME's ruling

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 17:57 +0200, Yury V. Zaytsev wrote:
> * Google Groups - free, no positive / negative experience

I briefly used Google Groups a long time ago, though I think it has
changed since then. They do offer a fairly broad range of facilities,
including email access, admin and moderator roles, and the focus on a
specific topic (Evo), but:

* No Reply To List (and I presume no proper List headers, though I
haven't checked). Possibly a minor point for some.

* Members need a Google account to sign up. I anticipate that this
would not please some people.

* The group address is directly associated with googlemail.com,
assuming the free option. For corporate/education domains (i.e. Google
Workspace) this can be changed.

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Re: [Evolution] Discourse and the situation for Mailman lists hosted by Gnome.org

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 16:40 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 15:35 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > > I have worked with a number of professional organizations that
> > > are
> > > maintained primarily by volunteer staff and effort.  The "powers
> > > that
> > > be" are usually people who are doing a lot of work for free --
> > > even
> > > if
> > > the people at the very top are being paid a little.  Sometimes
> > > that's
> > > because they believe in a "cause," sometimes because they like
> > > being
> > > the expert at something, sometimes because they like being a
> > > useful
> > > part of an organization.   But whatever the gain, it's still for
> > > free.
> > 
> > Except Gnome is a Foundation and it is supported by a large number
> > of
> > very large tech companies. Most of the infrastructure is provided
> > by
> > Redhat and they have a large presence on the Gnome Foundation
> > board.
> > 
> 
> What I can't understand is that all the Fedora lists, some of which I
> am on, continue to be run via Mailman, and presumably by staff that
> work for RedHat. This doesn't look to me like a RedHat decision.

I've posted a question to the Fedora Users list:

https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/us...@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/XXRBCEM3UQSLPPITR5L27HRPER3HZZHM/

Note that the list also has a web interface (HyperKitty), which is
different from Discourse. Hooray for consistency.

poc


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Re: [Evolution] Discourse and the situation for Mailman lists hosted by Gnome.org

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 15:35 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > I have worked with a number of professional organizations that are
> > maintained primarily by volunteer staff and effort.  The "powers
> > that
> > be" are usually people who are doing a lot of work for free -- even
> > if
> > the people at the very top are being paid a little.  Sometimes
> > that's
> > because they believe in a "cause," sometimes because they like
> > being
> > the expert at something, sometimes because they like being a useful
> > part of an organization.   But whatever the gain, it's still for
> > free.
> 
> Except Gnome is a Foundation and it is supported by a large number of
> very large tech companies. Most of the infrastructure is provided by
> Redhat and they have a large presence on the Gnome Foundation board.
> 

What I can't understand is that all the Fedora lists, some of which I
am on, continue to be run via Mailman, and presumably by staff that
work for RedHat. This doesn't look to me like a RedHat decision.

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Re: [Evolution] Discourse and the situation for Mailman lists hosted by Gnome.org

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 13:13 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 13:45 +0200, Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list
> wrote:
> > On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 12:31 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > > The PTB would all say that this is not abrupt.
> >   ^^^
> >   Pass the bong :D
> > 
> > What is PTB for?
> 
> The "Powers That Be". Usually reserved for faceless people who make
> decisions for what they perceive to be the best interests of other
> people.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_powers_that_be#:~:text=In%20idiomatic%20English%2C%20%22the%20powers,rather%20than%20a%20subjunctive%20be
> .

See also PHB: Pointy Haired Boss

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Re: [Evolution] Thoughts on Discourse and use as a mailing list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 17:36 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> I thought I would put together some of my thoughts about using
> Discourse that I have gained in just a day of using it. A day is not
> very long and I may not have fully understood everything - but there
> again, I am, apparently, the top poster on the topic with most
> replies
> in the Application category on Gnome Discourse!

Well said. I agree with all of this.

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Re: [Evolution] Thoughts on Discourse and use as a mailing list

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 19:51 +0200, Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list
wrote:
> On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 17:36 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > First, a thought about the demise of the Mailman mailing list.
> 
> A while back FreeBSD migrated from Mailman to another Software and
> the
> still provide the old Mailman archive + the Archive of the new
> mailing
> list software, for example
> https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions/ .

As Pete says, it's simply not credible that the underlying problem is
Mailman. Perhaps the Gnome people don't want to support Mailman, or
don't want to host it, but many technical lists, including all the
lists on the Fedora project, are based on Mailman and I see no
indication that this is going to change. They did introduce a web
interface called HyperKitty which some people use (and which I
cordially dislike) but it's a lot less lame than Discourse and does
properly interact with the lists without any setup required from the
user.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 09:53 -0500, Anonymous Japhering via evolution-
list wrote:
> The free level only allows up to 100 members -- how many folks are in
> the current list?

Around 850 at the moment.

> All levels have restrictions on archive size:  1GB, 30GB, 1TB. Anyone
> know how big, size wise, the archives are?

I could probably get that info but I'd be surprised if it were less
than 1GB.

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Re: [Evolution] What do I do now?

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 08:50 -0400, Paul Smith wrote:
> On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 13:42 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > I seem to be getting them now. Trouble is, I'm also getting stuff
> > that has absolutely nothing to do with Evolution, despite having
> > set
> > a tag (or whatever it's called) to "Evolution".
> 
> If you set "Mailing list mode" in your Discourse Emails preferences,
> turn that off.  If you enable that then your other preferences are
> ignored and you just get an email for every post to the site,
> basically.
> 
> See my other email: I'm not getting anything not related to Evolution
> after following those steps.

OK, I'll try that.

So the way to get it working as a proper mailing list is by turning off
Mailing List Mode. So intuitive.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] What do I do now?

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 14:02 +0100, Mark Stanton wrote:
> On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 14:09 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa via evolution-list
> wrote:
> > Dnia 21.10.2022 o godz. 13:04:15 Patrick O'Callaghan pisze:
> > > 
> > > It seems to take some time. I suspect Discourse is batching
> > > emails.
> 
> I've been receiving them frequently.  I signed up a couple of hours
> ago
> and have had regular and frequent messages, started almost
> immediately.

I seem to be getting them now. Trouble is, I'm also getting stuff that
has absolutely nothing to do with Evolution, despite having set a tag
(or whatever it's called) to "Evolution". As Pete has pointed out, the
Discourse system doesn't seem to be set up for the kind of exact focus
we need. This could be a real problem unless the Gnome admins create a
specific topic for Evo as they have done for a few other things.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 20:04 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> Brewster Gillett said on Fri, 21 Oct 2022 09:50:24 -0700
> 
> 
> > Excellent question. I'll toss out this possibility:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > We're using groups.io for a couple of the Mensa discussion lists
> > I'm
> > on. Mostly indistinguishable from good ol' mailman. Don't know if
> > there's a cost involved, but I would be willing to contribute if we
> > move there.
> 
> How many members does this list have? If it's less than 100, we can
> use
> the free version of groups.io.

As of right now, there are 856 registered subscribers to the Evolution
list.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 14:10 +0200, Andrea Veri wrote:
> That's about correct, and I see where that can be seen as a
> limitation. You
> can only filter by category in the way that you're mentioning AFAIK.
> One
> way would be to include an [Evolution] or [$APP] tag in the subject
> line
> and filter by that but that'd require instructing users to do so, not
> particularly feasible. But that's definitely a good point.

It's a bit more than a "good point". To me this is a fatal limitation.
I'm willing to make the effort to adapt to Discourse (thousands
wouldn't) but unless a reliable solution to this is found the change is
simply unacceptable. I have absolutely no interest in following
discussions about the Gnome project as a whole. Evolution is one of the
few Gnome apps I use (my desktop is KDE) and I seriously do *not* want
to have to deal with this on a message-by-message basis.

As others have said, Evolution is primarily an email client, and it
makes sense that its main support forum should be a properly managed
mailing list.

A further point: I'm on several technical mailing lists, each of them
with their own management. What they largely have in common is a set of
common practices which people have become used to over a period of many
years. The Gnome lists appear to be moving to platform which is
radically different from every other list I'm on, and which requires a
new set of tools to manage. This is a lot of pain for zero gain as far
as I'm concerned.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] What do I do now?

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 13:00 +0100, ja wrote:
> > Using Chrome.
> > Try starting typing evolution in the Watched field. Evolution
> > should show
> > up; it did for me.
> > 
> > 
> Yes that was it - type it in!
> The window is only active when the list is pulled down!
> 
> Also received the same answer from my "discourse" A/C !
> 
Please trim your quoted material. There's no need to quote everything
in the thread.

> No email yet though

It seems to take some time. I suspect Discourse is batching emails.

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Re: [Evolution] My first attempt to migrate to Discourse

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 13:29 +0200, Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list
wrote:
> 18. I muted the bell icon. I've got no idea how to continue to
> subscribe
>     to a mailing list behaviour, let alone that I still would have to
>     change the GitHub mail account for Discourse to my Evolution
>     mailing list account.

Go to your Preferences, then click on Emails (on the left). Near the
bottom of the page is a tick-box which enables mailing list behaviour.

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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 09:50 +, Sorin Srbu via evolution-list wrote:
> Ah, seems like Discourse closes topics after fourteen days with no
> traffic.
> Might this be a problem when revisiting the same topic but later?
> One can create a new topic of course, and refer to the old one, but
> this
> seems to be one hoop to many to jump through.
> 
> FWIW, I prefer a regular mailing list like this. I can save topics I
> have a
> personal interest in and go also go back with a reply or request more
> info
> later on.
> 

A good point. I've had a little experience with the Rclone topic on
Discourse and must say I dislike it intensely, though haven't attempted
to use the email interface. However it does have a 14-day timeout,
which I think is entirely unsuitable for a list such as this one.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Automatic tagging as "important"

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 09:07 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 17:33 -0500, Tim McConnell via evolution-list
> wrote:
> > On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 23:10 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > > No, there's no headers like that. I was wondering if there is
> > > some
> > > logic somewhere that parses the subject for keywords like
> > > "Announcement:"!
> > > 
> > > Thanks for your thoughts on it.
> > > 
> > > P.
> > 
> > Only thing I can think of is maybe your using IMAP and it "labels"
> > mails as important like gmail does? Yes it's annoying behavior. 
> > 
> 
> It's a label so internal to Evolution - the only thing that my IMAP
> server can do is to set a Flag, which I do for other things.  And I
> have full control over my (personal) IMAP server so I'm fairly
> certain
> it's not doing anything.
> 
> Out of interest, does it happen for other people on Evolution?

I haven't seen this.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 11:27 +0200, Andrea Veri wrote:
> > One glaring omission in [1] and [2] is *this* *list*. Are you
> > expecting
> > everyone on this list to also be on the Gnome devel and foundation
> > lists? Many people who use this list don't even use Gnome, have no
> > interest in Gnome, nor really care about it. They just use
> > Evolution
> > and want some help.
> > 
> 
> This list is hosted on the GNOME Infrastructure which is sponsored by
> the
> GNOME Foundation and our sponsors, so yes, I expect at least one list
> representative to be subscribed to one of those lists.

I can't answer for what you may expect, but I can say with total
confidence that no-one ever mentioned such an expectation when I agreed
to be a moderator of this list.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 23:03 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> Have you ever read "Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy"?

You took the words out of my mouth.

For those who don't get the reference:

“But Mr Dent, the plans have been available in the local planning
office for the last nine months.”
“Oh yes, well as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them,
yesterday afternoon. You hadn’t exactly gone out of your way to call
attention to them, had you? I mean, like actually telling anybody or
anything.”
“But the plans were on display …”
“On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
“That’s the display department.”
“With a flashlight.”
“Ah, well the lights had probably gone.”
“So had the stairs.”
“But look, you found the notice didn’t you?”
“Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a
locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the
door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard’.”

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 22:44 +0200, Andrea Veri wrote:
> And it seems I forgot both [1] and [2], there you go.
> 
> [1]
> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2022-August/msg4.html
> [2]
> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2022-September/msg00018.html
> 
> On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 10:43 PM Andrea Veri  wrote:
> 
> > Pete,
> > 
> > what you're saying is a honestly a bit unfair, lists decommission
> > has been
> > communicated multiple times over the past few months, see [1] and
> > [2], but

Those announcements were sent to several Gnome development lists, which
neither I nor (AFAIK) any of my fellow moderators subscribe to. We are
users, not developers. It would have been nice to have similar
announcements sent to those of us who actually deal with list
moderation and membership, or even directly to the list itself as
happened today. Instead, the first notice that any of us have had is
this declaration that there is deadline only 10 days away.

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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 19:10 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > 
> > I am a moderator of the Evolution list, and this is the first I've
> > heard of this. I think that 10 days notice of such a radical change
> > is
> > not reasonable. Most people here, including myself, will have no
> > idea
> > what this is about.
> 
> poc - as a moderator of the list, do you see the "major burden in
> managing lists spam".  It's not the first time I've seen something be
> shutdown with an excuse of "the spam, the spam, we can't cope". 
> Surely
> spam tagging is a mature process these days.

Spam moderation is not a big problem on this list, mainly (I think)
because it's a subscriber-only list and spam is almost always trapped
by the list manager, both by checking membership and by using a
Bayesian filter. Moderators get notice of anything held for approval
and deal with it via a web interface, but it usually amounts to at most
2 or 3 cases per day, so not a big deal.

(This, by the way, is how non-member posts get to the list; a moderator
has to approve them). 

There are currently 3 moderators: myself, Andre Klapper and Adam Tauno
Williams. Note that we have no control over the actual list hosting,
i.e. we are not list admins.

I imagine the spam problem might be greater on some other lists,
especially those that accept posts from non-members.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] What do I do now?

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 11:38 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> If we don't all find an alternate way to communicate with each other
> during October,
> many of us will be unable to use discourse (does it depend on systemd
> or pulseaudio,
> for instance, because I don't have those, don't want them, and I'm
> not alone).

It's a web page and doesn't depend on anything as far as I know.

Not that that should be regarded as a recommendation in any shape or
form.

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Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 13:09 +0200, Andrea Veri wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> As we have been communicating during the past few months GNOME's
> Mailman
> platform is being decommissioned (python2 deprecation, major burden
> in
> managing lists spam). The deadline is currently set to the end of
> October
> 2022. Mailing list subscribers are invited to migrate to GNOME's
> Discourse
> instance [1]. Neil made sure [2] to create a set of tags you can re-
> use to
> initiate a new topic in the new platform, if a tag is missing please
> reach
> out to me directly.
> 
> Jehan (from the GIMP Team) kindly provided some instructions you can
> follow
> [3] in order to safely migrate your reading workflow to Discourse.
> The new
> platform supports several login methods including your GNOME Account
> and
> other major OpenID providers.
> 
> After the deadline of the end of October Mailman archives will remain
> alive
> in read only mode for posterity. If the mailing list was used behind
> an
> alias, please let me know so we can re-do the same setup but on
> Discourse
> instead.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> P.S All the l10n lists are still pending code changes in damned-lies,
> the
> deadline to decommission those lists may slip by a week or two
> depending
> how soon those changes will be made available in DL codebase
> 
> [1] https://discourse.gnome.org
> [2]
> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2022-September/msg00018.html
> [3]
> https://discourse.gnome.org/t/welcome-to-gimp-forum-on-gnome-discourse/11534/5

I am a moderator of the Evolution list, and this is the first I've
heard of this. I think that 10 days notice of such a radical change is
not reasonable. Most people here, including myself, will have no idea
what this is about.

Personally, I detest web forums. If there is a well-supported mailing
list alternative, I will use that. However the link referenced above
look very much like a kludge and I doubt I'll be able to help list
users who may have problems with it, if in fact there is even a
continuing "moderator" role in this new system.

The Evolution list has been a useful resource for its user community
for many years. This unrequested change makes me sceptical about the
community's future. I hope I'm wrong.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Mailing list?

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sat, 2022-10-15 at 22:55 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> Personally, I wish I could turn off users doing Reply-all to mailing
> lists.

I'd vote for that. In fact it wouldn't appear to be hard to do. If
Evolution sees that the replied-to message has the appropriate list
headers, it could simply turn Reply-To-All into Reply-To-List, or just
disable Reply-To-All. Diehards could still add recipients to the To:
line manually if they wanted to, but I'd bet that almost no-one would
do this without strong reason.

There would still be some Reply-To-All posts from other MUAs,
particularly from web mailers (I'm looking at you, Gmail), but it would
reduce the annoyance level somewhat.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] How do you retroactively train Bogofilter's spam / ham filters on multiple computers using existing messages (on an IMAP account)?

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Fri, 2022-10-14 at 09:34 -0400, Jeff via evolution-list wrote:
> I see!
> Thank you very much for the confirmation that I can simply sync the
> Bogofilter wordlist file, and the "insert an unmarked message into
> the
> email folder" training workaround (if I ever need to re-train the
> whole
> thing again from scratch someday). That clarification is much
> appreciated (I wondered now if something about this could be relevant
> to the documentation page in the user manual, or if that's considered
> too niche?)

Please remember to quote some context of the message you are replying
to, so that readers don't have to search for the earlier message to see
what you're talking about.

In Evolution, this is easily done by selecting part of the original
message before hitting Reply (or preferably Reply-To-List).

poc
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Re: [Evolution] High disk usage

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2022-10-11 at 20:26 +0200, Pelle Windestam via evolution-list
wrote:
> > Hi,
> > can the received messages be large, like with some attachments or
> > inline images? Check size of those directories under ~/.cache/,
> > where
> > the folders.db files are stored. Then you can check the size of the
> > ~/.cache/evolution/http/, which is for the remote content, aka for
> > data
> > referenced remotely in HTML messages.
> > 
> > I cannot think of anything specific what would cause such writing.
> > Bye,
> > Milan
> > 
> > P.S.: by the way, Reply to List (Ctrl+L) works better for me on
> > this
> > list.
> 
> Not really, I rarely receive any large attachments. If there are any,
> they are
> typically pretty small PDF-files or similar. 
> 
> I located my folders.db files under ~/.cache/evolution and listed the
> size of
> the subdirectories in that location, and it was 12M for one account
> and 686 MB
> for the other. Currently evolution has written ~2GB since the last
> restart,
> which was just a few hours ago.
> 
> I do not have any ~/.cache/evolution/http directory. I have remote
> content
> disabled by default, perhaps that is why?
> 
> Very puzzling indeed. It would be nice to know exactly where all this
> data is
> written, but I do not suppose there is any existing way of doing just
> that.

ls -l /proc/$(pidof evolution)/fd

will show you every file Evo has open (many of which are sockets)

There is a way to get "live" feedback on file activity using strace,
but it's fairly hackish, e.g.

strace -p $(pidof evolution) --trace=desc|grep write

gives a flood of info which may not be that useful without decoding.

There's probably a way to use inotify to watch Evo's output, but it
would require some study to get right. And of course running under a
debugger is another option. 

> Thanks for the CTRL-L trick, I will try that (using it now!).

Not a trick but the standard way to reply on lists. You can also click
on the Group Reply button, which will Do The Right Thing (Ctrl-L can't
always be used when the message you reply to wasn't sent via reply-to-
list).

poc
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Re: [Evolution] High disk usage

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Mon, 2022-10-10 at 20:04 +0200, Pelle Windestam via evolution-list
wrote:
> On Mon, 2022-10-10 at 09:59 -0500, Greg Oliver via evolution-list
> wrote:
> > On Mon, Oct 10, 2022 at 5:46 AM Pelle Windestam via evolution-list
> >  wrote:
> > > On Mon, 2022-10-10 at 11:36 +0200, Milan Crha via evolution-list
> > > wrote:
> > > > On Mon, 2022-10-10 at 10:55 +0200, Pelle Windestam via
> > > > evolution-list
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > when I by accident looked at my "System Monitor" tool I
> > > > > noticed that
> > > > > it was writing huge amounts of data to my disk.
> > > > 
> > > > Hi,
> > > > does it report what file it is? Is the file itself such large,
> > > > or so
> > > > much data is written during the say, keeping the file
> > > > relatively small?
> > > > Being it about mail file, do you receive many mails each day?
> > > > Bye,
> > > > Milan
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > No, unfortunately not. I shows open files, but not how much that
> > > it has
> > > written
> > > to each specific one. 
> > > 
> > > I do not receive many mails at all, maybe 20 per day or so.
> > > Mostly without
> > > attachments, and in any case the attachments would be small.
> > > 
> > > //Pelle
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > Without knowing where your evolution files reside - do not use
> > Manjaro, you
> > can go into the directories and run this command.  Largest files
> > will be at
> > the bottom:
> > 
> > find . -type f -exec du -b {} \; | sort -n
> > ___
> > evolution-list mailing list
> > evolution-list@gnome.org
> > To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ...
> > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
> 
> It looks like it stores data in ~/.cache/evolution (lots of mails
> here it
> seems) and also in ~/.local/share/evolution. Nothing big under
> ~/.local/share/evolution, about 18 files and the largest one is about
> 73 kB.
> 
> ~/.cache/evolution is another story, lots of big files here. I do
> have quite a
> lot of archived mails in my private account, probably several GB, but
> those
> were downloaded to my computer a long time ago. Could the fact that
> there are
> lots of e-mails there be causing this? 

I don't see why, but in any case you could just remove everything under
~/.cache/evolution and see if the problem persists.

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Re: [Evolution] Logwatch reports segmentation faults in Evolution

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sun, 2022-10-09 at 14:27 -0500, Tim McConnell via evolution-list
wrote:
> > I would think so. The debugger just sets a signal trap, so I
> > wouldn't
> > expect the CPU usage to change, as Evo will run at normal speed
> > until
> > something "interesting" happens.
> 

> [...]

> That's good, it took a week for the segfault to reappear and once
> again
> , I have no way of knowing why. it did it after I had the computer
> running overnight. The only "consistent" thing is I'm prompted to
> sign
> into Google Contacts before the crash. Even that makes little sense
> due
> to me having don't ask on this device checked.

Did you get a stack trace when it happened?

> Maybe because I have 2
> gmail accounts it's checking(?)but I doubt that, I'm reasonably sure
> Evolution can get multiple IMAP accounts with no problems. 

It definitely can.

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Re: [Evolution] Logwatch reports segmentation faults in Evolution

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Fri, 2022-10-07 at 16:44 -0500, Tim McConnell via evolution-list
wrote:
> > "gdb something --ex r" will just start "something" under the
> > debugger
> > and then let it run until it either exists or crashes. It won't
> > create
> > any files on its own.
> > 
> > poc
> [...]

> Thanks for that information. So other than maybe slightly higher
> CPU/Memory usage it should be fine just to run evolution in gdb until
> it breaks again, correct? 

I would think so. The debugger just sets a signal trap, so I wouldn't
expect the CPU usage to change, as Evo will run at normal speed until
something "interesting" happens.

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Re: [Evolution] Logwatch reports segmentation faults in Evolution

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Fri, 2022-10-07 at 15:11 -0500, Tim McConnell via evolution-list
wrote:
> On Mon, 2022-09-26 at 07:15 +0200, Milan Crha via evolution-list
> wrote:
> > On Fri, 2022-09-23 at 12:47 -0500, Tim McConnell via evolution-list
> > wrote:
> > > I'm on Evolution 3.45.3-2 and my logwatch has been reporting
> > > segmentation faults for the last few days.
> > 
> > Hi,
> > I do not know what logwatch is, nor how one gets more detailed
> > information out of it, but if you face evolution process crashes,
> > then
> > I suggest to run it from a terminal under gdb and get the backtrace
> > when the crash happens. Note the gdb will catch it and will wait
> > for
> > an
> > input while the GUI will look frozen. A command can be:
> > 
> >    $ gdb evolution --ex r
> > 
> > and once it stops do:
> > 
> >    (gdb) bt
> > 
> > to print the current thread backtrace. An information before this
> > command can be useful too, possibly showing some runtime warnings.
> > To
> > quit gdb simply execute command in its prompt:
> > 
> >    (gdb) q
> > 
> > Please check the backtrace for any private information, like
> > passwords,
> > email addresses, server addresses,... I usually search for "pass"
> > at
> > least (quotes for clarity only).
> > 
> > Bye,
> > Milan
> > 
> > ___
> > evolution-list mailing list
> > evolution-list@gnome.org
> > To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ...
> > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
> 
> Hi Milan, 
> Does running gdb evolution --ex r create any files or take up disk
> space? The reason I ask is it (Evolution) still crashes, but there
> aren't any repeatable steps. It crashes at random so maybe if I have
> it
> running in GDB maybe I could get a back trace. But it could be days
> before it crashes, so I'm trying to figure out how to be able to get
> a
> back trace of the issue and not fill up my hard drive. I'm on Version
> 3.46.0-2 in Debian Testing(Bookworm) btw. 

"gdb something --ex r" will just start "something" under the debugger
and then let it run until it either exists or crashes. It won't create
any files on its own.

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Re: [Evolution] weird bug: mismatch between the message list and preview pane

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Fri, 2022-10-07 at 18:31 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > IIUC you are asking for an option to rebuild the folder tree, hence
> > I
> > suspect you are using IMAP accounts. It's one of the reasons for me
> > to
> > stay with POP accounts, since those are completely free from such
> > maintenance work on almost all MUAs, while there isn't a day
> > without
> > similar IMAP account related questions on at least one MUA's
> > mailing
> > list.
> 
> I think that's tremendously unfair. I've used IMAP based accounts for
> many, many years and never had any issues with them. They are
> infinitely more workable when you use more than one client - I
> currently have something like 10 clients on different OS's and lots
> of
> different MUAs and NEVER had any issues.

Agreed. I too have a number of IMAP-based accounts and several clients
for them on different devices and platforms, including Evolution. I
have never seen an issue such as the OP describes. My guess would be
that there is some sort of database corruption, but since I don't use
the Flatpak version I can't really comment further.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Stop Evolution Automatically Asking to Decrypt Messages

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sat, 2022-10-01 at 14:21 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> CAVEAT - in big letters.  I haven't tried this, I don't use GPG.
> Playing with dconf can get you into trouble.  Check what you type and
> don't try and do anything totally outrageous. You can make things
> unusable with dconf. If you don't know what you are doing, don't do
> it.

Also, make sure Evolution is completely shut down ("evolution --force-
shutdown") before changing anything with dconf.

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Re: [Evolution] Can't open URLs anymore

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2022-09-28 at 00:26 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Mon, 2022-09-26 at 22:10 +0100, Evolution List Owner wrote:
> > On Mon, 2022-09-26 at 12:17 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> > > Just today for the first time, when I click a URL link in the
> > > body of
> > > a message I
> > > receive, I get error: "Could not open the link: Failed to execute
> > > child process
> > > "/usr/libexec/gio-launch-desktop" (No such file or directory).
> > > 
> > > I checked, and it's true that there's no /usr/libexec/gio-launch-
> > > desktop on my
> > > computer. This symptom just started happening today: Before today
> > > clicking on a URL
> > > brought up the URL in Firefox.
> > > 
> > > Evolution version 3.44.4.
> > > 
> > > How can I start to narrow down this problem?
> > 
> > Try xdg-settings, e.g.:
> > 
> > $ xdg-settings get default-web-browser
> > firefox.desktop
> > 
> > and change it (using 'xdg-settings set ...' if it looks wrong. The
> > default-url-scheme-handler may also need to be set.
> 
> Thanks poc,
> 
> Your command yielded chromium.desktop. I posted my
> /usr/share/applications/chromium.desktop at
> http://sprunge.us/P3twZB . I can't
> understand it --- I never dealt with xdg stuff before because I do
> very little
> clicking on icons.
> 

See the man page for xdg-settings(1).

xdg-settings set default-web-browser firefox.desktop

> I found no default-url-scheme-handler in the chromium.desktop file.

That's OK, it's often not set.

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Re: [Evolution] Reading emails and threading

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Mon, 2022-09-26 at 12:04 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Mon, 2022-09-26 at 09:51 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> > > Threading has nothing to do with including quoted messages in
> > > replies, either directly or as attachments. That's something else
> > > entirely. You can do that if you want, but it's not threading.
> > 
> > This!
> > 
> > Threading is unrelated to quoting other than by cultural
> > practices.  Notice that this messages is threaded, my response is
> > below the
> > relevant text of the previous message, and all extraneous stuff has
> > been deleted.
> 
> In my opinion, what you state in the second sentence of the preceding
> paragraph
> isn't threading, but instead is proper reply behavior when
> participating in a tech
> mailing list. Thank you for doing it. I wish everybody would.

Me too, but many people have been brainwashed into the broken practices
promoted by Microsoft Outlook and now accepted by most of the corporate
world as "normal".

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Reading emails and threading

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Mon, 2022-09-26 at 08:11 -0500, c. marlow wrote:
> 
> 
> On Sat, Sep 24, 2022, at 11:36 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Emails in threads are separate from each other, so I'm not sure
> > what
> > you mean by that last sentence.
> > 
> > poc
> 
> I am talking about:
> 
> the text above is from you ^
> 
> If I hit REPLY TO LIST
> 
> My reply will be bundled / attached to the original email.
> 
> So  it would like:
> 
> Patrick O'Callaghan Re: [Evolution] Reading emails and threading 
> 
> Then right below it would be another line that says:
> 
> YOU:   Re: [Evolution] Reading emails and threading 
> 
> The " YOU" being this very reply from me that  I am typing right now
> would be attached to your reply.
> 
> I tried MailSpring and that's what they did.
> 
> We stopped at a gas station and got gas and they emailed me the
> receipt. 
> 
> Well I forwarded the receipt to my mother and basically mailspring
> attached the forward to the original email.
> 
> So this is what I saw:
> 
> Sams Club  Here's your receipt
> YOU:  FWD: Here's your receipt
> 
> I guess that's how threading is supposed to work?

A message thread is a set of related messages. Standard threading as
used by Evolution means that the messages are implicitly linked by
certain headers such as In-Reply-To. Some other mail clients also use
the Subject line as a way of grouping messages, though this isn't
reliable and is deprecated on this list.

Evolution shows threads (optionally) as groups of messages in the
message list, using indentation to show the relationship between them.
See View->Group by Threads (Ctrl-T). It also has some commands to
select a thread or sub-thread, ignore a thread, or show an entire
thread including previous messages (assuming they're still there).

Threading has nothing to do with including quoted messages in replies,
either directly or as attachments. That's something else entirely. You
can do that if you want, but it's not threading.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Reading emails and threading

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sat, 2022-09-24 at 10:23 -0700, Brewster Gillett wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, 2022-09-24 at 08:32 -0500, c. marlow wrote:
> > > I am just curious to know, do any of ya'll read your emails in
> > > threads? 
> > > 
> > > Does EVO even support this feature?
> > > 
> > > I tried threading once, for about 2 min, and it just seemed too
> > > confusing for me. I think that I like reading each email
> > > separately. 
> 
>  Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > It's probably decades since I last read emails *except* in threads,
> > and
> > of course Evolution does support that or I wouldn't use it.
> > 
> > Emails in threads are separate from each other, so I'm not sure
> > what
> > you mean by that last sentence.
> > 
> > poc
> 
> bg: 
> 
> Sounds to me like the user is confusing threads with Digest Mode; a
> concept
> that is a trap for the untutored and should have been strangled in
> its crib:-)

We turned off digest mode on this list over five years ago, after
asking for feedback on this list. See:

https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/2017-March/msg00023.html

That of course has nothing to do with Evolution itself, which still
supports digest-oriented commands for those who want them on other
lists than this one.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Reading emails and threading

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sat, 2022-09-24 at 08:32 -0500, c. marlow wrote:
> I am just curious to know, do any of ya'll read your emails in
> threads? 
> 
> Does EVO even support this feature?
> 
> I tried threading once, for about 2 min, and it just seemed too
> confusing for me. I think that I like reading each email separately. 

It's probably decades since I last read emails *except* in threads, and
of course Evolution does support that or I wouldn't use it.

Emails in threads are separate from each other, so I'm not sure what
you mean by that last sentence.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Compose plain text emails that render well on MS Outlook

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Mon, 2022-09-19 at 08:31 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> On Mon, 2022-09-19 at 08:08 -0300, Jorge P. de Morais Neto via
> evolution-list wrote:
> > Hi.  I reply below:
> > Em [2022-09-19 seg 00:54:15+0200], Ángel escreveu:
> > > If the problem is only surfacing on the signature, maybe you
> > > could
> > > setup your signature with doubled newlines?
> >  thank you for the tip, but that would add five newlines to my
> > messages, which I think would be too much.
> 
> More exotic suggestion: just skip the signature.  They were useful
> once
> upon a time, long ago; today they really accomplish nothing. 
> Including
> anything but your name is largely a waste of time.
> 

+1

I stopped adding an automatic signature well over 20 years ago.

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Re: [Evolution] Forwarding a mail to action fraud that is potentially fraudulent

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Thu, 2022-09-15 at 06:59 +0100, Steve T via evolution-list wrote:
> From time to time I get EMails that appear to be scams or phishing
> mails. In the UK the police have set up 'Action
> Fraud' - a group that looks into EMail/text scams. The problem I have
> is that when I forward the dubious mail to action
> fraud's Email address, the mail fails to send and gets an error
> message telling me that it is potentially fraudulent!
> 
> Is that message from Evolution or from my mail provider, and if from
> Evolution, can I disable the scam check for an
> individual mail?

It's definitely not from Evolution. Evo never sends you messages on its
own. Furthermore, it doesn't have a "scam check" function. It does
enable external spam checkers such as SpamAssassin or Bogofilter, but
AFAIK neither of these sends auto-generated emails to the user.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Freezing Preview pane

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2022-09-14 at 17:13 -0500, Anonymous Japhering via evolution-
list wrote:
> On Wed, 2022-09-14 at 22:49 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > On Wed, 2022-09-14 at 15:26 -0500, Anonymous Japhering via
> > evolution-
> > list wrote:
> > > Evolution 3.44.4 (by Flathub.org) 
> > > Linux Mint 20.3 Una
> > > Linux 5.15.0-46-generic #49~20.04.1-Ubuntu SMP
> > > 
> > > Forth time in the last week that my preview pane has frozen.  
> > > 
> > > I haven't been watching closely enough to see if it is always the
> > > same
> > > email message or different 
> > > email messages.
> > > 
> > > However,  it is a permanent failure.  The pane will remain frozen
> > > until
> > > I reboot my laptop, which is
> > > the pain point.
> > > 
> > > Anyone else seeing similar behavior ?
> > 
> > Never seen that. Perhaps mention your desktop and video driver.
> 
> Mate 1.26.0
> Mesa Drivers 21.2.6
> X11-server  7.7+8
> Xorg   7.7+19Ubuntu14

I meant to include your video hardware (Intel, AMD, Nvidia ...) and
which kernel driver it uses, e.g. the proprietary Nvidia or the open
source version. However this is relevant mainly if the entire desktop
freezes. It's not clear from your post if that's what's happening, but
you did mention having to reboot to clear it.

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Re: [Evolution] Freezing Preview pane

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2022-09-14 at 15:26 -0500, Anonymous Japhering via evolution-
list wrote:
> Evolution 3.44.4 (by Flathub.org) 
> Linux Mint 20.3 Una
> Linux 5.15.0-46-generic #49~20.04.1-Ubuntu SMP
> 
> Forth time in the last week that my preview pane has frozen.  
> 
> I haven't been watching closely enough to see if it is always the
> same
> email message or different 
> email messages.
> 
> However,  it is a permanent failure.  The pane will remain frozen
> until
> I reboot my laptop, which is
> the pain point.
> 
> Anyone else seeing similar behavior ?

Never seen that. Perhaps mention your desktop and video driver.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Restoring Evolution

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2022-08-31 at 07:46 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> On Wed, 2022-08-31 at 11:22 +0200, Milan Crha via evolution-list
> wrote:
> > On Wed, 2022-08-31 at 09:57 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > > In the past, when the config
> > > was stored in dconf, it was a bit more complicated since the
> > > dconf
> > > keys needed to be dumped and then backed up. But now everything
> > > is
> > > stored in .config/evolution.
> > for what it's worth, most of the things in the Preferences (and in
> > other parts) are still stored in the GSettings, which usually means
> > DConf, which the backup/restore does back up and restore. 
> 
> This is a useful addendum to any backup:
> 
>    gsettings list-recursively
> 
> My backup procedure dumps the output of that to a file that is
> included
> in the backup.  You can dump a 'restored' system and diff the two
> files
> to discover what you had changed [but have no recollection of] and
> restore the setting(s) using the same command.
> 
Good tip.

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Re: [Evolution] Restoring Evolution

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2022-08-31 at 00:22 +0800, Netsol.link wrote:
> > I would support this, though I'm sure some people might be upset
> > about
> > it. No-one expects their browser to have a built-in backup method,
> > so
> > why should their email system? I don't think other MUAs do this.
> > 
> > poc
> > ___
> You right some of us maybe a bit put-off if this function was to be
> removed. I use it sparingly (2 or 3 times a year) as a backup of
> emails
> and contacts. I also regularly trim my emails to keep the file size
> small and when I do a backup, I delete the oldest one so I only ever
> have 2 backup files.
> I have also used backup/restore to transfer from one computer to
> another usually without any issues. I once got into trouble but it
> was
> my one fault, because I stupidly backed-up from a newer version and
> tried restored to an older version! (different distros have different
> versions in their repos!?). I got out of that one because I also
> regularly 'image' my drive (using Rescuezilla). I don't use a backup
> utility as my data is mostly not critical and does not change that
> much
> (I'm retired)

I'm also retired, but I still run a nightly backup.

> As for other MUAs I don't know about Linux once, but, coming from
> Windows, MS Oultlook keeps everything in one file (.pst) so it's easy
> to just copy this file to a backup drive, no need for a
> backup/restore
> function. 
> Unfortunately none of that helps the OP with his corrupted backup - I
> have not enough knowledge to offer any advice - sorry.

It's simple to get the same result as the current Backup function by
just running a tar command on the command line. Perhaps that should be
made explicit in the Help, with appropriate caveats, and the function
removed from the UI to avoid misleading the user.

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Re: [Evolution] Restoring Evolution

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2022-08-30 at 12:11 -0400, Matt Connell wrote:
> On Tue, 2022-08-30 at 11:49 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > Perhaps take it off the main 'File' menu and change it to
> > something like "Save account settings" in the preferences and not
> > backup the actual stored messages.
> 
> I support this, but not full removal.  I don't use it for
> 'synchronizing' distinct machines, but I do tweak a lot of settings
> based on need and I like to be able to undo what I may have broken.

So a backup that only copied settings would work for you?

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Re: [Evolution] Restoring Evolution

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2022-08-30 at 11:49 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I've suggested in the past that we should change the terminology
> > and
> > call it something else, but so far no-one has come up with a good
> > alternative name. Any suggestions would be welcome.
> > 
> I agree entirely with you. I think the "backup/restore" is generally
> abused rather than used - in that it used for things it was never
> meant
> to be used for.
> 
> Even the real use for it (i.e. transferring settings to another
> machine) is mis-used for syncing things between multiple machines by
> some people. Yes, the argument of "it works so why not" is OK, except
> when it no longer works when doing that and people grouch that
> something broke.
> 
> I would possibly go as far as to say that that particular
> functionality
> has run its course and could be consigned to the big bit-bucket in
> the
> sky.  Perhaps take it off the main 'File' menu and change it to
> something like "Save account settings" in the preferences and not
> backup the actual stored messages.

I would support this, though I'm sure some people might be upset about
it. No-one expects their browser to have a built-in backup method, so
why should their email system? I don't think other MUAs do this.

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Re: [Evolution] Restoring Evolution

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Mon, 2022-08-29 at 16:41 -0700, Mr. J wrote:
> Friends: I have been trying to restore yesterday's Evolution backup
> and get the message: 
> 
> File “/home/ij/Downloads/evolution-backup-20220828.tar.gz” is not a
> valid Evolution backup file.  
> 
> I created the backup file yesterday with Evolution's backup function,
> and I'm running the restore command from Evolution, but it's a
> restored version from a 2020.tar.gz file.  (I mistakenly thought
> restoring the data from that 2020 file would simply add to the
> existing Evolution system; instead I replaced all my current data
> with
> that from the 2020 file.)
> 
> I'm running Evolution 3.44.1-Oubuntu1 in Ubuntu 22.04.1 LTS, on a
> generic Intel Pentium CPU G4400.    When I created yesterday's
> backup,
> I put it in (backed it up to) an external USB hard drive. Thinking
> that might be the problem, I copied and pasted it to the local
> /home/ij  folder.

Once again I feel I have to bring up the (understandable)
misunderstanding about the Backup/Restore function in Evolution.

I'm afraid this isn't going to help with your current problem, which
others have commented on, but it's important to clarify that the
purpose of Backup/Restore is *not* for doing your daily backups. It can
be used in that way, but I think it's generally a bad idea. As you've
noticed, Backup copies *all* your data, and Restore overwrites *all* of
it. This is not how regular backups should be handled. Aside from being
very inefficient, it's also very dangerous, as you've discovered.

The best way to backup Evolution is as part of your regular home
directory backup procedure. You can do this any way you want, but any
reasonable backup solution will handle incremental backups, work
automatically, keep multiple generations of backups, allow selective
restoring, etc. Evo's built-in facility does none of that. It's just a
compressed tar file, with all that that implies.

I've suggested in the past that we should change the terminology and
call it something else, but so far no-one has come up with a good
alternative name. Any suggestions would be welcome.

To be clear, this is just my own opinion.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Sent messages missing in search folders

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2022-08-23 at 13:27 +0200, binarynoise wrote:
> Am Dienstag, dem 23.08.2022 um 12:21 +0100 schrieb Patrick
> O'Callaghan:
> > On Tue, 2022-08-23 at 13:05 +0200, binarynoise via evolution-list
> > wrote:
> > > Hello everyone,
> > > I have set up search folders to group inboxes and unread
> > > messages,
> > > but
> > > I notices that although I have set up the filters to include all
> > > related messages, messages sent by me as response are missing.
> > > 
> > > How and where can I include them in the search folder?
> > > 
> > > My current configuration is like this: 
> > > (sorry if not translated properly, but you get the idea)
> > > - look for objects that meet: all the critria
> > > - include conversations: all related 
> > > - state is not read, not spam, not deleted, not draft
> > 
> > Replies sent by you will not generally be in your inboxes (unless
> > you
> > routinely CC yourself).
> > 
> > poc
> 
> I forgot to mention, I have the filter look everywhere: all local and
> active remote folders. 
> Also if I tell it to include everything related, I'd expect it to
> include mails from other folders.
> 
> As this is not the default behaviour, is there at least a toggle?

Please also state which version of Evolution this is (Help->About) and
what kind of accounts are involved (POP, IMAP, Exchange, ...)

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Re: [Evolution] Sent messages missing in search folders

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2022-08-23 at 13:27 +0200, binarynoise wrote:
> Am Dienstag, dem 23.08.2022 um 12:21 +0100 schrieb Patrick
> O'Callaghan:
> > On Tue, 2022-08-23 at 13:05 +0200, binarynoise via evolution-list
> > wrote:
> > > Hello everyone,
> > > I have set up search folders to group inboxes and unread
> > > messages,
> > > but
> > > I notices that although I have set up the filters to include all
> > > related messages, messages sent by me as response are missing.
> > > 
> > > How and where can I include them in the search folder?
> > > 
> > > My current configuration is like this: 
> > > (sorry if not translated properly, but you get the idea)
> > > - look for objects that meet: all the critria
> > > - include conversations: all related 
> > > - state is not read, not spam, not deleted, not draft
> > 
> > Replies sent by you will not generally be in your inboxes (unless
> > you
> > routinely CC yourself).
> > 
> > poc
> 

[Please use Reply-To-List rather than Reply-To-All, where possible. The
easiest way is to click on Group Reply]

> I forgot to mention, I have the filter look everywhere: all local and
> active remote folders. 
> Also if I tell it to include everything related, I'd expect it to
> include mails from other folders.
> 
> As this is not the default behaviour, is there at least a toggle?

I think the problem may be in the interpretation of Threads->"All
related", which doesn't appear to be documented in the Help. It's not
something I've used so maybe someone else can offer a suggestion.

Have you tried changing that to "Replies" or "Replies and Parents"?

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Re: [Evolution] Sent messages missing in search folders

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2022-08-23 at 13:05 +0200, binarynoise via evolution-list
wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> I have set up search folders to group inboxes and unread messages,
> but
> I notices that although I have set up the filters to include all
> related messages, messages sent by me as response are missing.
> 
> How and where can I include them in the search folder?
> 
> My current configuration is like this: 
> (sorry if not translated properly, but you get the idea)
> - look for objects that meet: all the critria
> - include conversations: all related 
> - state is not read, not spam, not deleted, not draft

Replies sent by you will not generally be in your inboxes (unless you
routinely CC yourself).

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Potential Issue casued by Update

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2022-08-23 at 01:10 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > > 
> > > What does 
> > > 
> > >    xdg-mime query default 'x-scheme-handler/mailto'
> > > 
> > > say?  It should point to the desktop file that is used to start
> > > your
> > > copy of Evolution.  Mine says "org.gnome.Evolution.desktop". 
> > > That
> > > is,
> > > as far as I know, how Chrome handles Mailto: links. 
> > 
> > Mine actually says:
> > 
> > userapp-Evolution-ZCM7LX.desktop
> > 
> > which I hadn't seen before. I wonder if it's a recent change. The
> > file
> > does exist under $HOME/.local/share/applications/
> > 
> I have one of those under ~/.local/share as well - it seems to be a
> very truncated version of the system one under
> /usr/share/applications;
> and much older as well. Also:
> 
>    $ grep Exec /usr/share/applications/org.gnome.Evolution.desktop
>    Exec=evolution %U
>    Exec=evolution -c current
>    Exec=evolution mailto:
>    Exec=evolution -c contacts
>    Exec=evolution -c calendar
>    Exec=evolution -c mail
>    Exec=evolution -c memos
>    Exec=evolution -c tasks
>    
>    $ grep Exec .local/share/applications/userapp-Evolution-
> 1UF7A0.desktop
>    Exec=evolution --component=mail %u
>    
> If it works, it works.  But it looks like the system one is the more
> comprehensive, newer one.

Yes, the old one dates from 2014 (!). I removed it (in fact them, as
there were several) and installed the system one as default.

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Re: [Evolution] Potential Issue casued by Update

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Mon, 2022-08-22 at 23:21 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> On Mon, 2022-08-22 at 14:32 -0500, Michael Kenny via evolution-list
> wrote:
> > My Flatpak of Evolution updated today and now my Mailto is not
> > working from Chrome Version 104.0.5112.101 (.deb). Chrome is set as
> > my default in Pop OS 22.04.1 and it worked as recently as last
> > night.
> > I changed my default email handler to Geary in POP OS and Mailto
> > works fine in Chrome and Firefox. When changing default email to
> > back
> > to Evolution Mailto does not work from Chrome but does work from
> > Firefox and any other browser I have tried. I have completely
> > removed
> > Chrome and everything relating to chrome and readded but clicking
> > on
> > a MailTo link in Chrome with Evolution as the default handler does
> > nothing. Any troubleshooting tips are welcome.
> > 
> 
> What does 
> 
>    xdg-mime query default 'x-scheme-handler/mailto'
> 
> say?  It should point to the desktop file that is used to start your
> copy of Evolution.  Mine says "org.gnome.Evolution.desktop".  That
> is,
> as far as I know, how Chrome handles Mailto: links. 

Mine actually says:

userapp-Evolution-ZCM7LX.desktop

which I hadn't seen before. I wonder if it's a recent change. The file
does exist under $HOME/.local/share/applications/

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Re: [Evolution] Keeping email on the server

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Fri, 2022-08-19 at 13:57 -0600, larry wrote:
> Of course, I not only couldn't find the message, but could not find a
> way in Evolution to save it as .eml.
> 
AFAIK that's just another word for mbox, i.e. a straight text copy of
the mail with its headers (and attachments in MIME where applicable).
Add ".eml" to the filename if it will make the ISP happier.

> Not only that, but the copy in 'Sent' appears to not have a full set
> of headers.

It's only ever going to have the headers your system added before
passing it on to the server. This is normal.

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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Thu, 2022-08-18 at 10:33 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> On Thu, 2022-08-18 at 04:10 +0200, Ángel wrote:
> > On 2022-08-16 at 23:24 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > > Spam filtering is under the control of the receiver. It's trivial
> > > to
> > > tell Gmail that a message is not spam, and it will learn that for
> > > future reference. You might also look at *why* your mail is being
> > > classified as spam. Could it be that some people have marked it
> > > as
> > > such?
> > 
> > Actually, I would consider this a weak point of gmail. As a
> > receiver,
> > you don't know why a message is considered spam (compare that with
> > a
> > system like SpamAssassin, where you can view the scoring of the
> > different modules), and even Google itself would often be unable to
> > determine why the ML engine considered it bad.
> 
> This is getting way of topic, but ...
> 
> My work uses Microsoft O365.  We have similar issues with bad spam
> filtering at times, including it binning internal mailing list mails.
> The mail admins have tried to get some insight into the spam
> classification process so that we can get some idea how to avoid it,
> but MS won't talk about it because it's proprietary confidential
> information. At first glance that's a "typical big brother" attitude,
> but they say that if the spam classification algorithms are known,
> spammers will just craft emails to get around them, which I can
> understand.  I wonder if Gmail has the same sort of thinking on it.
> 
> BTW, we think the reason the mailing list mails were being spam
> binned
> was because we have a very very large userbase (big university, lots
> of
> staff and students), with some compulsory lists for communication.
> All
> it takes is for people to blindly click on "I don't want to see this
> sort of mail any more" thinking it gets them off the list, whereas it
> just increases the spam score and eventually - actually quickly -
> gets
> our mailing list servers globally sunk.

We once had our entire university blacklisted because someone (a
student I think) had spammed some list somewhere. This was years ago
(before we started using G Suite) but it took a deal of effort to have
it corrected.

There is no magic bullet for dealing with spam.

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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2022-08-17 at 00:52 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa via evolution-list
wrote:
> Dnia 16.08.2022 o godz. 23:24:37 Patrick O'Callaghan pisze:
> > 
> > Spam filtering is under the control of the receiver. It's trivial
> > to
> > tell Gmail that a message is not spam, and it will learn that for
> > future reference.
> 
> It does not. Myself I have two test accounts on Gmail, I send myself
> mail
> from time to time to these accounts, mark it as non-spam, yet next
> messages
> are again going to spam.
> 
> > You might also look at *why* your mail is being
> > classified as spam. Could it be that some people have marked it as
> > such?
> 
> All this has been already tried and discussed countless times. I have
> written a lot about this on "mailop" mailing list. It is going on for
> more
> that two years now. I don't want to start this discussion again here,
> as it
> is just pointless

I agree. There's clearly a complex situation here and I don't pretend
to understand it.

> > The number of false positives I've had is so small that I actually
> > never bother to check my spam folder any more as there's no point.
> 
> And that's the problem for people like me who get "punished" for
> don't-know-what by Google - people like you, who believe that "Google
> just
> can't be wrong", so there's no sense in checking the spam folder.

I didn't (and don't) say that Google can't be wrong. Clearly it's using
heuristics for spam filtering, and heuristics are never perfect. What I
do say is that *in my experience* it's not worth checking the spam
folder because *for me* it actually does work very well. IOW the
probability of a false positive is so low that I have decided that it's
not worth the effort.

It's perhaps worth remembering that email is "unreliable" (in the sense
that it's not guaranteed to be reliable). We often forget this because
in practice it actually is very reliable. Until it isn't. Checking or
not checking a spam folder should be seen in that context.

poc

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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2022-08-16 at 23:45 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa via evolution-list
wrote:
> Dnia 16.08.2022 o godz. 22:37:23 Patrick O'Callaghan pisze:
> > And the free version of Gmail has by far the best spam filtering
> > I've
> > come across. In fact I don't even bother with Bogofilter or
> > Spamassassin any more.
> 
> Well, it's "too good". All mails from my address usually go to spam
> at
> Gmail, no matter what I try. I also manage some organization's mail
> account
> that is hosted on Gmail (free) and it happens regularly on that
> account that
> mails with questions from people who want to get involved with the
> organization land in spam folder. They even often are mails from
> other Gmail
> addresses!
> 
> I am sick of Gmail because of this.

Spam filtering is under the control of the receiver. It's trivial to
tell Gmail that a message is not spam, and it will learn that for
future reference. You might also look at *why* your mail is being
classified as spam. Could it be that some people have marked it as
such?

The number of false positives I've had is so small that I actually
never bother to check my spam folder any more as there's no point.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2022-08-16 at 17:29 +0200, Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list
wrote:
> On Tue, 2022-08-16 at 11:12 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > We've been over this before. There's nothing stopping you from
> > syncing
> > your IMAP account to your local machine. There is *NO* advantage to
> > using POP, and a number of disadvantages. The only reason to ever
> > use
> > it is if your mail provider doesn't support IMAP.
> 
> Hi,
> 
> my bad, I haven't read the whole thread.
> 
> I've got different "local" machines with different operating systems.
> Offline-IMAP can be a PITA and might be more or less impossible on
> some
> machines. Setting up a POP account is straightforward for power users
> as
> well as noobs. If only one MUA deletes the POP mails from the server,
> after n days, the mails are similar accessible by different MUAs as
> IMPA
> mails are, but without all the offline IMAP issues, such as
> duplicated
> emails. And as already pointed out by my riseup.net link, quota is an
> issue, maybe not for spoiled people, but for all those watching every
> penny.
> 
> Much likely we will easily find more "exceptional cases", such as the
> one mentioned by Jaroslaw Rafa. However, all of us are aware of
> common
> pitfalls of IMAP as well as POP. Why don't I see this or that folder?
> Spam filtering on the server vs on the machine, both has got pros and
> cons.
> 
> I will not convince anybody that POP is better than IMAP. The only
> point
> I make is that POP can be better than IMAP for some users under some
> circumstances.
> 

I agree that people's needs may be different.

> Nobody should fool around with gmail, despite of being in favour of
> POP or IMAP. No gmail, less problems.

I completely disagree with this last statement. The corporate version
of Gmail saved me a ton of headaches back when I ran my university's
mail service. In fact these days that service would simply not be able
to exist without it, because it's in a cash-strapped third world
country and simply cannot afford to run its own servers.

And the free version of Gmail has by far the best spam filtering I've
come across. In fact I don't even bother with Bogofilter or
Spamassassin any more.

YMMV of course, as to repeat: people's needs may be different.

This is starting to get off-topic so I suggest we agree to disagree.

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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2022-08-16 at 14:18 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa via evolution-list
wrote:
> Dnia 16.08.2022 o godz. 13:14:04 Patrick O'Callaghan pisze:
> > > Yes, I would concede that. I occasionally do that as it's a way
> > > of
> > > fetching mail *into* my Gmail account from another account.
> > > However
> > > that's a special case.
> > 
> > Just to add that this isn't an actual advantage of POP in itself.
> > It's
> > a "necessary evil" because Gmail doesn't support fetching via IMAP
> > from
> > a different service.
> 
> Technically yes, but it's a common default for POP to delete mail
> from server
> after fetching, while it's common default for IMAP to keep mail on
> the
> server (otherwise local and server mailbox wouldn't be in sync, which
> will
> cause trouble for a typical mail client), therefore POP seems better
> suited
> to that kind of operation than IMAP.

Agreed.

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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2022-08-16 at 13:10 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Tue, 2022-08-16 at 12:19 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa via evolution-list
> wrote:
> > Dnia 16.08.2022 o godz. 11:12:12 Patrick O'Callaghan pisze:
> > > We've been over this before. There's nothing stopping you from
> > > syncing
> > > your IMAP account to your local machine. There is *NO* advantage
> > > to
> > > using POP, and a number of disadvantages. The only reason to ever
> > > use
> > > it is if your mail provider doesn't support IMAP.
> > 
> > There is one more valid reason to use POP: if you have a main mail
> > account
> > (A) and a secondary one (B), and you want to have all messages from
> > account
> > B forwarded to account A, but account B doesn't allow to configure
> > forwarding.
> > 
> > If account A allows to configure fetching mail via POP from remote
> > accounts,
> > you can then configure some way of "forwarding" from B to A by
> > fetching mail
> > via POP.
> 
> Yes, I would concede that. I occasionally do that as it's a way of
> fetching mail *into* my Gmail account from another account. However
> that's a special case.

Just to add that this isn't an actual advantage of POP in itself. It's
a "necessary evil" because Gmail doesn't support fetching via IMAP from
a different service.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2022-08-16 at 12:19 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa via evolution-list
wrote:
> Dnia 16.08.2022 o godz. 11:12:12 Patrick O'Callaghan pisze:
> > We've been over this before. There's nothing stopping you from
> > syncing
> > your IMAP account to your local machine. There is *NO* advantage to
> > using POP, and a number of disadvantages. The only reason to ever
> > use
> > it is if your mail provider doesn't support IMAP.
> 
> There is one more valid reason to use POP: if you have a main mail
> account
> (A) and a secondary one (B), and you want to have all messages from
> account
> B forwarded to account A, but account B doesn't allow to configure
> forwarding.
> 
> If account A allows to configure fetching mail via POP from remote
> accounts,
> you can then configure some way of "forwarding" from B to A by
> fetching mail
> via POP.

Yes, I would concede that. I occasionally do that as it's a way of
fetching mail *into* my Gmail account from another account. However
that's a special case.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2022-08-16 at 09:51 +0200, Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list
wrote:
> On Mon, 2022-08-15 at 19:59 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> > On Mon, 2022-08-15 at 17:24 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > > On Mon, 2022-08-15 at 06:08 -0300, Francisco M Neto wrote:
> > > > Nevertheless, I want to add email through POP; I *really* don't
> > > > want
> > > > to keep anything in google's hands.
> > > Up to you of course, but that logic doesn't make sense to me. 
> > 
> > +1,000,000,000
> 
> Hi,
> 
> if the emails are on your machine, than Google can't deny access to
> your
> old, already received emails. If the emails are on a Google server,
> they
> can deny access to your old, already received emails. An authority
> might
> advice Google to deny access and Google might obey.

We've been over this before. There's nothing stopping you from syncing
your IMAP account to your local machine. There is *NO* advantage to
using POP, and a number of disadvantages. The only reason to ever use
it is if your mail provider doesn't support IMAP.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Mon, 2022-08-15 at 06:08 -0300, Francisco M Neto wrote:
> Nevertheless, I want to add email through POP; I *really* don't want
> to keep anything in google's hands.

Up to you of course, but that logic doesn't make sense to me. If you
don't trust Google, why are you using their mail servers, which have
full access to everything going through them?

Furthermore, keeping your mail on Google's servers is a convenient way
of being able to access it from anywhere, with or without Evolution.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution backup & restore error on 3.44-1

[Patrick O'Callaghan via evolution-list]

On Sat, 2022-08-13 at 13:21 -0400, Reid Vail via evolution-list wrote:
> On Sat, 2022-08-13 at 18:42 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa wrote:
> > Dnia 13.08.2022 o godz. 12:33:32 Reid Vail via evolution-list
> > pisze:
> > > I used the rsync tool first. It grabbed all the mail but not the
> > > account info and settings. When I start Evo on the destination
> > > machine
> > > I am prompted by the account setup prompt, as though I'm a new
> > > user.  I
> > > grabbed the mail data from .local/share/evolution.  If the
> > > settings,
> > > etc, are store somewhere different I would be happy to learn it.
> > 
> > It's ~/.config/evolution .
> 
> 
> Thx for the reply -
> that fixed it.  Actually, I don't understand why the GRSYNC restore
> didn't restore either the .local/share or the .config.  Had to do it
> all manually.  Probably a user error of some kind.

Since I'm not familiar with grsync, I can't guess. However a
straightforward copy with "rsync -a" would have copied the entire home
directory. The rsync man page has several examples to guide you.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Evolution backup & restore error on 3.44-1

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sat, 2022-08-13 at 10:48 -0400, Reid Vail via evolution-list wrote:
> I've used GRSYNC to backup and restore as much data as possible from
> an
> old desktop to a newer laptop.  In the process I tried to use the
> Evolution backup/restore utility. Have successfully used it before.
> Trouble this time is that restore fails, reporting that the backup
> file is not readable.

What is the exact error message?

I wasn't aware of grsync, but I note that it currently doesn't support
all of rsync's features. That may or may not be a clue.

I also don't understand why you used both a sync tool and the Evo
backup/restore. If you synced the entire home directory, using
Backup/Restore is redundant.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Combining Contact Lists

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2022-08-09 at 22:20 -0700, Jonathan Ryshpan wrote:
> On Tue, 2022-08-09 at 16:31 +0200, Andre Klapper via evolution-list
> wrote:
> > On Tue, 2022-08-09 at 07:15 -0700, Jonathan Ryshpan wrote:
> > > I have two contact lists, which are very similar but not quite
> > > the
> > > same. What's the best way to combine them?
> > 
> > Please see https://xyproblem.info/ . Which problem would that
> > solve?
> 
> A very good question. For a long time I had a unified list of
> contacts,
> maintained by Google, which was available both to my cell phone and
> to
> evolution. Then Google changed its login procedure so that evolution
> was
> no longer able to access Google's list, and changes made to
> evolution's
> list were no longer reflected on Google's list, and vice versa. Now
> (thanks to some help from Milan C.) Google's list is available to
> evolution, which sees it as a new list. 
> 
> So the question is how to create a list (possibly an existing one)
> that
> incorporates the entries made in evolution's and Google's lists.

Google's Contacts app has a de-duplication function. That might be the
easiest solution.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Change envelope icon size?

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sun, 2022-08-07 at 09:02 -0400, William Oliver wrote:
> 
> I am using evolution v. 3.44.1-0ubuntu1 on a laptop with kubuntu
> (Kubuntu 22.04).   It works fine, but the little envelope icons are
> awfully small, and my old eyes are having a problem seeing whether or
> not I've replied, etc.  Here's a screen shot.  I'm using Buuf icons
> for
> my system icons.  Is there a configuration option to make the icons
> larger?

This isn't an Evolution setting. Icons and fonts are defined by your
desktop theme.

poc
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