Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?
On Mon, 2022-11-14 at 13:08 -0500, Paul Smith wrote: > The nice thing about flatpak is it's quite simple to install an older > version (e.g., Evolution 3.44) if that's helpful to you. Hi, it was pointed out several times that Evolution downgrades are sometimes a problem regarding the user data/settings. Downgrades of any software can suffer from this issues. Sometimes user data/settings are transformed by an update to a different format and can become incompatible for usage with older versions. IOW unless it's not verified that the user data/settings are backwards compatible or a backup of compatible formatted user data is available, it doesn't matter how easy or hard the downgrade of the software itself is. I don't know if data/settings used with 3.46 do work without issues when using 3.44. Much likely there's no issue with emails and if needed settings can be reset to defaults by the gsettings command. Likely the worst case is to redo the settings. Resume, downgrading this kind of containerized software is easier to do for bloated software, than for the same software with a huge shared dependency tree, but the container approach doesn't solve user data/settings backwards incompatibility. Flatpaks and similar approaches make some things easier for users, but other things harder and they even don't solve all existing problems related to upgrades and downgrades. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?
On Tue, 2022-11-08 at 16:57 -0500, Paul Smith wrote: > I simply urge people to not take these "it's horrible" statements, > without any reference to actual problems that anyone has ever had in > real life and very little understanding of what exactly a flatpak or > snap is, how they are built, or how they work, as gospel. Hi, in 2016 I tried to build a snap for qjackctl, hence a real-time sound server and real-time audio apps using this sound server were involved. This time I was subscribed to https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/snapcraft , in the meantime replaced by https://forum.snapcraft.io ;). Nowadays probably some of the old issues are solved, however, apart from security concerns, the snap infrastructure is inappropriate for a lot of domains, while the classic packages or ports approach is appropriate for all domains. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?
On Tue, 2022-11-08 at 13:49 -0600, Greg Oliver via evolution-list wrote: > Do you really think Canonical understands linux? They have zero > developers in the kernel development process, plus Debian only has (2) > that I know of.. So, please do not use distros as live bait - it is > inappropriate - you use software from a distro that has no regard for > how the kernel / OS actually works - just a bunch of js programmers. Hi, I'm probably the last to like the steps in the wrong direction being taken by Ubuntu, let alone my production machine running Arch Linux. However, I seriously doubt that at least the Ubuntu Security Team and/or Canonical Security Team are "just a bunch of js programmers". The snap route is freakish and all the harder to understand by assuming they know what they're doing. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] What do I do now? V2
On Mon, 2022-11-07 at 09:07 -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > quoted context Hi, right now the same topic is endlessly discussed on questi...@freebsd.org and on evolution-list@gnome.org . It is discussed every now and then on every computer related mailing list. On questi...@freebsd.org and on evolution-list@gnome.org it's not discussed for the first time, it's not discussed for the second time, it's not discussed for the... If somebody is new to a computer related mailing list or if somebody every now and then makes a mistake, be polite. If a subscriber wants to change common computer mailing list's posting style rules, ignore the subscriber. If an English language mailing list is to old fashioned, because it isn't hip anymore to write from left to right and from top to bottom or to reply by using context, people are free to use a hip media. Everybody is free trying to solve a technical issue by exchanging ideas with spaghetti formatted HTML text and thumbs up icons. The next step is to use software written in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaghetti_code . An insider tip, spaghetti code is the new black. Regards, Ralf PS: I sent this to both lists :p. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] What do I do now? V2
On Sat, 2022-11-05 at 14:26 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > 1. > https://osuosl.org/services/hosting/ > https://osuosl.org/request-hosting/ The mc mailing list already migrated from gnome.org to OSU OSL. Yury V. Zaytsev yury at shurup.com seems to be the one responsible for doing it. Consider to ask Yury V. Zaytsev. https://lists.midnight-commander.org/pipermail/mc/2022-October/005510.html https://lists.midnight-commander.org/mailman/listinfo/mc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] What do I do now? V2
On Sat, 2022-11-05 at 13:10 +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > If anyone has more insight, please let me know. No, I don't have more inside, let alone that I dislike freedesktop.org, but there are still other option: 1. https://osuosl.org/services/hosting/ https://osuosl.org/request-hosting/ 2. https://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/html_node/Creating-Mailing-Lists.html new-mailing-l...@gnu.org 3. https://support.riseup.net/en/ticket/3227QJ76OfCW7Ci7 https://riseup.net/en/lists/list-admin/configuration/creating-lists Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?
On Sat, 2022-11-05 at 08:07 +, Mike wrote: > The VM is on the same hardware as the new desktop. Ok, we can tolerate top posting, HTML and untrimmed posts, even while you were asked to at least not top post and to trim quotes. At least I can't tolerate that you copied the content of an email into another thread. Please, reply to your thread, don't hijack another completely unrelated thread. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?
On Fri, 2022-11-04 at 13:23 +, Mike wrote: > I exported the data set from the VM and imported it into the physical > Debian platform the VM was now running on. The gz package was 3.2GiB. Hi, ok, I missed the information "gz package". Perhaps you need to move the data by just coping folders. But for the moment let's forget about this and check something else. > It says there is new mail via a notification popup, but there is > nothing in the inbox or anywhere else. Select the Inbox folder. On top, beside the search bar, there's a "Show:" box. If it doesn't show "All Messages" or "Unread Messages", then select either one or the other. Perhaps you accidentally moved the scroll wheel, while the mouse cursor hovered over this box and you might have selected "Read Messages" or something else. After you corrected this for the Inbox, check other folders, too. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Evolution plug-in for word count?
On Fri, 2022-11-04 at 23:51 +, Mike wrote: > I will but I really think this is a matter of evolution messing up on > the import of a very large backup file from another computer. Hi, perhaps we are getting closer to the issue. How did you move the data from the VM to the install on bare metal? There are plans to hide the option "Backup up Evolution Data..." in coming versions of Evolution. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?
On Sat, 2022-11-05 at 02:34 -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > I have 20 years and probably more email messages than you spoke of. I > don't think any email client on earth is built to hold that volume of > email. Hi, Evolution can handle >1 decade with lots of POP accounts, archiving lots of heavy traffic mailing lists and countless private mails. There isn't a trace to assume that it might change. Later I started using Claws parallel to Evolution and a while back I discontinued using Claws. I don't know if the amount of emails is related to the issues I experienced with Claws. If it should be different when using Evolution with IMAP, then it would be another reason to be in favour of POP. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Weird menu bar above menu bar
On Fri, 2022-11-04 at 15:57 -0500, Tim McConnell wrote: > I hope it does (work forever), the new "look" is horrid if your > visually impaired (I'm blind in one eye) and changing that setting to > 'false' instead of 'true' makes it more usable to me. Hi, the future has begun, welcome to dystopia. Take a look at gtk4 apps. Evolution can't stay with gtk3 forever. It's also horrid if you're not visually impaired, so a good step towards more equality. Regards, Ralf -- Idiocracy: IQ Test and White House Visit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNl7GQFTULU ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?
On Fri, 2022-11-04 at 13:51 +, Mike wrote: > Sorry, I missread. I downloaded the the DVD Debian non-free install > package from debian.org directly. No you understood correctly, all the information I recommended to provide, when sending a request to the list, is the version of Evolution. I can't help you with this issue, but much likely somebody else has got an idea. However, again, don't forget to reply to the list, evolution-list@gnome.org . ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?
> Forwarded Message > From:Mike > To: Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list > Subject: Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is > designed to go? > Date:04/11/22 14:42:15 > > It is from the Debian maintainer as I install with: sudo apt-get > install evolution > > Unless a package can't be installed that way I always use the officlal > maintainer version. This version is 3.38.3-1 > > ══ > Ellis Michael "Mike" Lieberman [snip] > > Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list wrote: > > [snip] Hi, please, next time reply to the list and add your reply below a trimmed quote. I suspect it's ok to forward this off-list mail (with some trimming done by me) to the list ;). Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?
On Fri, 2022-11-04 at 14:37 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Fri, 2022-11-04 at 13:23 +, Mike wrote: > > -- The versions of Evolution on the VM and the new install are the same. > > -- Both are running on Debian 11.5. > > and this version is? The Debian 11.5 version from official repos or from > another source? I don't know, but maybe this information is useful. > > Help > About > > or > > $ evolution --version PS: https://www.debian.org/News/2022/2022091002 IIUC 11.5 is "stable" https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/evolution IIUC Evolution for "stable" is version 3.38.3 Is this correct? ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Have I pushed Evolution beyond where it is designed to go?
On Fri, 2022-11-04 at 13:23 +, Mike wrote: > -- The versions of Evolution on the VM and the new install are the same. > -- Both are running on Debian 11.5. Hi, and this version is? The Debian 11.5 version from official repos or from another source? I don't know, but maybe this information is useful. Help > About or $ evolution --version Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] What do I do now? V2
On Thu, 2022-11-03 at 13:47 +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > On Wed, 2022-11-02 at 20:23 +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > > There may be such things in Mailman3, but currently we have Mailman2 > > and Gnome isn't going to change it. > > Turns out that freedesktop.org also uses Mailman2. However that version > does allow the list owner to upload a list of subscribers, something I > hadn't noticed before now. I pointed this out earlier and recommended to ask if they will migrate to Mailman 3 or a similar mailing list software or if they consider to migrate to a forum software, too. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] What do I do now? V2
On Thu, 2022-11-03 at 03:33 -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > Paul Smith said on Wed, 02 Nov 2022 12:36:54 -0400 > > > > Alternatively of course we can announce the new list (as I said before > > it doesn't HAVE to be done before this list closes: it can be announced > > on Discourse) and let people subscribe on their own. > > Just speaking for myself, I won't be on Discourse, so I'll never hear > about it. Hi, I'm subscribed to at least one Discourse forum, but I will not take care about Discourse GNOME, too. The Discourse forum I'm subscribed to is a forum for proprietary software, but completely different to the GNOME's forum, since this forum doesn't obtrude all this gamicfication crap and it's overall visually more discreet designed. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] What do I do now? V2
On Wed, 2022-11-02 at 16:27 +0100, Milan Crha via evolution-list wrote: > poc, there had been multiple people offering help even with the > infrastructure. In case the current list admins do not respond, say > till the 6th (this Sunday), would it make sense to engage those folks, > if they are still willing to co-admin the list, wherever it is? There > should be a voice from them too, of course. I suppose to make the list > alive will take some time, hence I chose the 6th, to have at least a > week for it to set up. Hi, I'm willing to help. I'm an experienced FLOSS user, but I have got zero experiences with mailing lists. I'm a former Assembler programmer, I don't have any python knowledge. IOW I'm a power user, not a coder. My free time is quite limited. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] What do I do now? V2
On Wed, 2022-11-02 at 20:23 +0800, Bret Busby wrote: > On 2/11/22 19:53, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > > On Wed, 2022-11-02 at 08:19 +0800, Luigi Cantoni via evolution-list > > wrote: > > > Many people have contributed their ideas as to how to move forward so > > > I > > > hope there is enough now suggested so that we can do that. > > > > > > Can I ask the Moderators and those that contribute a lot to this list > > > to decide where we migrate to before they shut us down. > > > I for one don't what to be left hanging and will happily "follow the > > > leaders". > > > > I've contacted the other moderators to see if we can reach a consensus > > on this, but have yet to hear back from them. We'll certainly inform > > the list if we have something to say. > > > > At the moment, my impression is that everyone is waiting for someone > > else to take a decision, and time is passing by. Clearly the moderators > > can't simply dictate what's going to happen. As things stand, it > > appears to be inevitable that the current list will be discontinued and > > that Evolution support will be provided on Discourse, no matter what > > any of us think. Therefore the temptation to set up a new list > > independent of gnome.org has to be weighed against the probable > > fragmentation of the community, which would not be ideal. However it's > > not out of the question. > > > > One thing I can say is that I would not take on the responsibility of > > managing a new list on my own. Moderating the current list is not a > > particularly onerous task because much of the infrastructure is > > provided by Gnome and we interact with it using a Mailman web page. > > Also, it's shared among three people. However anyone who proposes a new > > list should be willing to take on the task of administering it. > > This already been taken care of. > > If people choose to disregard what has been done for them, and simply > keep discussing, and not doing anything about it, then that is their choice. > > I will not again mention on this list, that a mailing list has been set > up, by someone willing to administer it, to which, so far, only about > thirty people have subscribed. Hi, this is the mentioned list that already exists: https://groups.io/g/evolution-users It is limited to 100 subscribers. Here we much likely could get a mailing list without a user limit: https://support.riseup.net/en/ticket/3227QJ76OfCW7Ci7 Everybody can open the ticket at riseup.net. I could do, but I'm not a moderator or admin of evolution-list@gnome.org . Do the moderators wish that I ask to open a mailing list? The list's archives seem to view HTML instead of plain text messages: https://lists.riseup.net/www/ The MC mailing list migrated to OSU OSL. They got all the data from gnome.org, so as a subscriber I had to do nothing, excepted of using m...@lists.midnight-commander.org instead of m...@gnome.org . I suspect OSU OSL is: https://osuosl.org/ Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] [solved] After an update Evolution's user interface is entirely broken
On Tue, 2022-11-01 at 12:40 +0100, Milan Crha via evolution-list wrote: > Text on buttons, that's tricky with small resolutions. You are lucky > you've plenty of space, but there are people, or use cases, where is > available only limited space, thus the text is too much for the header > bar buttons. If you do not believe, then have a look here: > https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/evolution/-/issues/2022 Hm, with $ gsettings get org.gnome.evolution.shell use-header-bar false I can shrink the window to a very small size without suffering from such an issue, see attachment. So the issue is introduced by the new design policy. The string of consequences has nothing to do with the needs or opinions of different users, it's introduced by a new design policy and no issue at all with the old design policy. ;) Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] After an update Evolution's user interface is entirely broken
On Tue, 2022-11-01 at 11:52 +0100, Jaroslaw Rafa wrote: > It's an off-topic question, but [...] I'm very interested... I replied off-list. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
[Evolution] [solved] After an update Evolution's user interface is entirely broken
On Tue, 2022-11-01 at 08:10 +0100, Milan Crha via evolution-list wrote: > gsettings set org.gnome.evolution.shell use-header-bar false Hi, thank you, this solved the issue, see attachments. Even the Smiley is more friendly again ;). > Also, I would not say the interface is entirely broken. That's not fair > from you. It was entirely broken. Btw. I can't stand to read the whole link posted by you. This strange person mentioning "Not only do I doubt many (if any) people..." is a liar. On almost all FLOSS related mailing lists hundreds of people claim that they dislike exactly this ignorance and the new design of gtk apps, that breaks with the window design of almost all, if not all non-gtk apps and the new design gains nothing. It's not better than the design of the non-gtk apps. The gtk design is completely irrational from a user point of view, who is interested in getting work done. I'm using gtk3-nocsd, because I want that all my windows fit the same workflow. The screenshot of Evolution without gtk3-nocsd by the link you posted shows an Evolution windows, that would render it for my workflow useless, too. The GTK3 windows without gtk3-nocsd, let alone gtk4 windows enforce a workflow differently from the non-gtk apps I'm using. I explained the issue when using Evolution with gtk3-nocsd on another mailing list: "Some people might claim that I'm trolling, but can those people explain why e.g. some icons are on the left side of the whatever this bar is called and other icons are on the right side of this bar in a really wide window. Why are the icons moved to different bars? Why wasn't one tool bar enough? All those icons are for options you need one by the other. And with all that space, why do they remove text? They could display the text beside the icons, there's enough space. What is better, if the text is only displayed by barely readable text if the mouse pointer does hover over the icon? It's not an improvement to the old user interface. The new user interface is against reason. Everybody can see this, without ever reading a scientific book related to user interface design. FWIW while writing this mail I changed Evolution > View > Switcher appearance from "Toolbar style/show buttons" to "Icons and Text/Show Buttons" and to "Text only" with "Show Buttons" disabled or enabled. Those options don't make a difference." A craftsman wants tools by craftsmen for craftsmen, not tools by inexperienced thinkers. In addition, the tools of the Foo company should follow the same principles as the tools of the Bar company, because the craftsman does not follow the name of the company when using them, but the tools. If the GNOME foundation supports gtk developers to break with the principles, then the GNOME foundation harms the craftsmen and the tools and ultimately harms itself. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
[Evolution] After an update Evolution's user interface is entirely broken
Hi, today Evolution on Arch Linux was upgraded from 3.44.4 to 3.46.1, due to a dependency hell a downgrade became more or less impossible to maintain. I have given up downgrading Evolution. I've attached screenshots showing the new confusingly arranged ambiguous symbols. Now evolution only works for me with searches and tooltip descriptions. Why was the intuitive, self-explanatory interface that allowed you to get things done in a split second replaced with a hidden object game that now takes me minutes to do something that previously took me seconds to do? Evolution is rendered useless for my needs. I don't have the time to play hidden object games. Are there any plans to fix this mess or do I need to migrate to another MUA? Also, you have to jog your mouse cursor from corner to corner to do things that were previously side by side, and the design just wastes the space of the screen. The colors of the theme were applied unbearably too. I designed the theme in such a way that I see these really blue tones instead of these more turquoise tones, because I'm very sensitive to things like that. What's the plan behind this? I noticed something similar for another app I used a lot. The app's name is "Meld". It is an irony of fate that mc's mailing list was also on a GNOME Foundation server, so I took another look at mc and found that fortunately mc offers a replacement for Melt. By the way, the mc mailing list was migrated to an OSU OSL server. The subscribers of the old mailing list had nothing to do, to use the new mailing list. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
[Evolution] Has somebody still a GNOME Discourse account?
~~~ Hi, I wonder if whitespaces are kept by the plain text part of the Discourse's multipart messages, if the body of an email send to Discourse does start and end with a line containing three times the tilde or whatever else the used markdown implementation provides for code. It might look disgusting as a forum post, probably like syntax highlighted code, but might provide a proper formatted plain text for emails. Is somebody who still has got an account interested to test it? Regards, Ralf ~~~ ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] unread messages
Hi, 1. Select the folder 2. On top, below the tool bar is a search bar and on the left side of the search bar is a box. Click the box and select "All Messages". Instead of clicking and selecting, it's also possible to use the scroll wheel of the mouse , when the mouse cursor hovers over the box. You much likely moved the scroll wheel of the mouse by accident, when the mouse cursor was in this position. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Another new mailing list
Hi, thank you. While it shouldn't harm to have two plan B, it could harm ;). IMO we should wait for the "official unofficial" new mailing list. If the time until the end of life of this list on gnome.org shouldn't be enough time, to get the new "official unofficial" mailing list, we probably should focus on one temporary Plan B from earth [1]. It's limited to 100 subscribers, but several users of this list are already subscribed to the groups.io list. The count of members is shown on https://groups.io/g/evolution-users , we are still far away from the 100 subscribers limit. Regards, Ralf [1] https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/2022-October/msg00316.html Forwarded Message From: Bret Busby Subject: [Evolution] New mailing list Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2022 00:51:04 +0800 Hello. For those who are interested, see https://groups.io/g/evolution-users It is now, up to you to decide what you want to do. .. Bret Busby Armadale West Australia (UTC+0800) .. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022
On Wed, 2022-10-26 at 12:29 +0200, Milan Crha via evolution-list wrote: > "evolution-users" Hi, if possible the old moderators should become the new admins/moderators, hence one of them should get in contact with freedesktop.org or foo.bar. If additional help is needed, maybe somebody from this list or I can help. Just ask! Don't forget to ask freedesktop.org or foo.bar, what they will use to replace Mailman 2 ;). Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022
On Wed, 2022-10-26 at 07:34 +0200, Milan Crha via evolution-list wrote: > On Tue, 2022-10-25 at 22:23 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > > Can you ask them? Probably better not to have several people asking > > the same questions. > > Hi, > I can ask David, the infradead.org person, though I thought I'll keep > the real paper work to somebody more knowledgeable than me. Hi, there's still the option to open a list at risup.net [1], [2]. Regards, Ralf [1] " Western Meadowlark replied... about 6 hours ago Hi Ralf, Please go ahead and create the list request. I don't see why would have a problem hosting a list for a FLOSS MUA - personally, I think FLOSS itself is a movement for radical social change given the power and role of proprietary software in the world. Best wishes," - https://support.riseup.net/en/ticket/3227QJ76OfCW7Ci7 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riseup ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022
On Tue, 2022-10-25 at 18:26 +0200, Milan Crha via evolution-list wrote: > My personal opinion is to use a free mailing list service. Expecting > there will be people not moving to the new location, thus the location > will not turn from free to a paid service is not ideal. It's better to > stay on the safe side, to avoid another move elsewhere in the near or > far future. +1 > I suggested the two places where other similar/related projects to the > Evolution already have their mailing lists. It might make sense to be > nearby to them, from my point of view. Neither of those projects are > developed under the GNOME umbrella, though. > > [1] https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/ > [2] http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/ Joking: [1] does host more than one controversial project, while [2] does host the Mailman mailing list, but the Mailman mailing list is unused :D. A serious concern: Both use Mailman 2. Do they soon migrate to Mailman 3 or to Twitter and Discourse? ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] [evolution-users] What do I do now?
On Tue, 2022-10-25 at 16:02 +0800, Bret Busby wrote: > losses will occur. > > Some of the people on some of the gnome lists, are being quite vocal > about all kinds of possibilities, but, seem to be doing nothing about > any of the possibilities. Hi, an important part of the app communities are the app developers, the admins and moderators of the current lists at gnome.org, hence a first step to get closer to a solution are statements from those people. We all or at least most of us were surprised and disorganized, the next step is to become more organised. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] [evolution-users] What do I do now?
On Tue, 2022-10-25 at 09:55 +0200, Milan Crha via evolution-list wrote: > On Tue, 2022-10-25 at 09:42 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > I'm not aware of software to my taste, that can replace Evolution for > > me and I used almost all known MUA software. > > I'm not sure I understand your message properly, I guess I do not, but > to express my own opinion: if the above means "if I cannot use a > mailing list for app A, I'm going to switch to another app B, which > does similar things as app A, even I'm particularly satisfied with the > app A otherwise", then I say the reason to use another app just because > the current app will have shut down one of three ways to ask for help, > is really, really radical thing to do and doesn't make any sense to me. > Again, just my opinion, likely due to my misunderstanding of you. > > Side note: discussing alternatives for random apps here is an off topic > for this list by all means. Please, do not diverge from the intent of > the mailing list. Hi Milan, I will continue using Evolution, since no replacement for Evolution is to my taste. However, if I can replace apps associated with the Gnome foundation I will do this. The latest step in the wrong direction, migration to a gamification forum with an announcement four light years away and another one 11 days before the final curtain falls, isn't the only reason, but it is the straw to break the camel's back. You might have noticed that some developers started a migration from Gtk to Qt already a long time ago. Probably all of them had a reason to chose Gtk in the first place and they most likely dislike to migrate to Qt, but it is what it is. Btw. for good reasons I'm not using a desktop environment. I'm using a window manager and portions from different desktop environments. I dislike to replace one portion by another portion, but it's less radical, than being bound to a desktop environment (the same applies to operating systems or apps). I'm quite flexible, not radical. Sometimes I've got the impression that staying with operating systems, environments, apps tends to be similar to fundamentalism. This approach seems to me way more radical than my approach is. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] [evolution-users] What do I do now?
On Tue, 2022-10-25 at 14:43 +0800, Bret Busby wrote: > On 25/10/22 10:18, Ralf via groups.io wrote: > > Temporarily we can continue to think about how to proceed at > > > > https://groups.io/g/evolution-users > > https://groups.io/g/gimp-users > > > > Just to clarify - when I set up the replacement lists at groups.io (and, > I have set up another one, for a different gnome product), I did not set > them up to be as temporary facilities. > > The lists were set up to replace the applicable gnome.org mailing lists > that are being shut down. Hi, thank you again for your efforts. The Evolution mailing list at Gnome has around 850 subscribers, hence groups.io can't be a non-transient solution for this list. While I'm not against donations, I consider donations as a last resort, that should be avoided. The day we spend more money for donations, to keep FLOSS alive, than we spend for one time purchases to get proprietary software and free as in beer lifetime support, FLOSS is dead anyway. Somebody mentioned a proprietary replacement for Gimp, while I mentioned another FLOSS project for Gimp. I can't speak for this other person, but only for myself. It was not meant as trolling. Actually I'm using both, the proprietary software mentioned by this other person and the FLOSS software mentioned by me. I migrated a long time ago from Gimp to those other solutions and a few more for other reasons and I never bothered anybody by recommending to do the same. Mentioning an alternative was done due to the step made by the GNOME foundation, to drop the mailing lists without providing a reasonable replacement. I'm not completely pissed off by a forum, I'm completely pissed of by a forum with gamification. The other FLOSS software I mentioned (Krita) provides a mailing list. Btw. for those who are not only in pixel graphic, for photography there are anyway IMO way better solutions available, FLOSS as well as proprietary, to see just a few, take a look at https://lensfun.github.io/usage/ . IMO a plugin for Gimp still doesn't make it a good app for photography. YMMV! I'm not aware of software to my taste, that can replace Evolution for me and I used almost all known MUA software. While I'm not a MC user, for this purpose I'm in favour of command line with bashisms, I doubt that there's a replacement available for MC. As GUI editor I replaced Gedit for other reasons a long time ago by Pluma and Pluma by Xed and I even used Kate and similar. However, I never joined a mailing list for any of these editors. In a nutshell: IMO a free as in beer mailing list is useful for some apps and I expect it should be able to hold way more than 100 subscribers and not be limited to 1 GiB. Apart from replacing a dropped mailing list by a new mailing list another workaround/solution could be replacing an app by another app. For me and for some other users replacing a mailing list by Discourse is no option. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] What do I do now?
On Tue, 2022-10-25 at 08:31 +0800, Luigi via evolution-list wrote: > Since we only have a few days left may I suggest the group focus on > putting forwards what options we have and those actually doing the > work can decide the best choice and we go for it (even if its not > perfect). Hi, Savannah was also mentioned by the MC mailing list (IIRC not for the mailing list, but for tickets). https://savannah.gnu.org/maintenance/WhyChooseSavannah/ On the Gimp mailing list there was a pointer to https://www.tuxfamily.org/en/about . It would be nice if former gnome.org mailing lists migrate to the same new location. Temporarily we can continue to think about how to proceed at https://groups.io/g/evolution-users https://groups.io/g/gimp-users IMO Savanna is a quite good idea, but FWIW Midnight Commander, Gimp, Gedit and Evolution have got BSD ports, too. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] [rebellion attempt] Fight back!
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 19:21 -0400, Liam R E Quin wrote: > The mailing list is moving to Discourse, yes. You can interact with > Discourse using email. Hi, a lot of the Evolution mailing list members, including myself, tested the mailing list ability of Discourse. I was not allowed to start a new thread by email, because my gamification level was 0. You are allowed to start a new thread by email, after you reached level 1. This is not the only annoyance. Discourse GNOME has got no real mailing list ability. > IRC, Discord, Mastodon, Twitter, continue to exist. IRC is as good as a mailing list, but no replacement for a mailing list and a mailing list is no replacement for IRC. Both are very good, but fit different needs. I'm not per se against forums, but a forum is per se less good than a mailing list. I'm completely against forums using gamification to fool the subscribers. Twitter and similar unsocial networks are hell! If no new mailing lists will be available, I seriously doubt that a lot of the Midnight Commander or of the Evolution mailing list subscribes are willing to use Discourse in the future, let alone Twitter or similar. Some might use IRC, other community members will be lost forever. It might be different for Gimp or Gedit mailing list subscribers. However, those used to command line, ncurses or ncurses alike approaches and/or mail user agents will less likely be much attracted by Discourse, Twitter and Co. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
[Evolution] Fwd: Re: Let's unite the power of all mailing list subscribers who are affected by GNOME's ruling
Forwarded Message From: Grzegorz Szymaszek To: m...@gnome.org Cc: Ralf Mardorf , gimp-user-l...@gnome.org, evolution-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Let's unite the power of all mailing list subscribers who are affected by GNOME's ruling Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2022 19:01:11 +0200 Hi, FWIW, since a few years, Mutt's mailing lists[1] are hosted at Oregon State University Open Source Lab[2]. From my limited experience, this solution works quite reliably. In general, they provide hosting of mailing lists and other services for free for open source projects[3]. Some alternatives off the top of my head to consider: - Debian mailing lists[4], - freedesktop.org, as already mentioned by Yuri, - SourceHut[5] (most likely paid). [1]: http://mutt.org/mail-lists.html [2]: https://osuosl.org/ [3]: https://osuosl.org/services/hosting/policy/ [4]: https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/HOWTO_start_list.en.html [5]: https://sourcehut.org/ Best of luck -- Grzegorz ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] New mailing list
On Mon, 2022-10-24 at 02:41 +0800, Bret Busby wrote: > subscribing by replying to the invitation that I sent, appears to > have worked Yes! ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] New mailing list
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 13:16 -0400, Paul Smith wrote: > I have no problems with people signing up to whatever they want, of > course, but [snip] Hi, I can't comment on groups.io and I dislike the idea of an unofficial mailing list. When Bret asked me off-list, if he should set up this list for Evolution, I replied that IMO it will be very helpful to have such a mailing list. It at least is good as a transitional solution. Keep in mind that evolution-list@gnome.org does only exist for another week. After this week we (those who will not use Discourse) need something to stay in contact, to find a solution. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] New mailing list
On Mon, 2022-10-24 at 00:51 +0800, Bret Busby wrote: > https://groups.io/g/evolution-users > Thank you Bret, I tied subscribing several times with silver.bullet at zoho.com by the groups.io website and one time by email. Until now I didn't receive a confirmation email. I checked the spam folder by the ISP's web interface, but it's empty. I'll wait a little bit longer and if necessary try to sign up with another email address. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Let's unite the power of all mailing list subscribers who are affected by GNOME's ruling
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 17:57 +0200, Yury V. Zaytsev wrote: > * groups.io - way too expensive for us > * riseup.net - political organization > * Google Groups - free, no positive / negative experience > * Freedesktop - maybe they could accept a couple of low-traffic lists? > > If other lists find a good solution, please let us know. Thanks! Hi Yury, thank you for the summary. If something good should happen, I'll let you know. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Discourse and the situation for Mailman lists hosted by Gnome.org
Hi, it's worth to forward this [1] to other GNOME mailing lists. Regards, Ralf [1] Forwarded Message To: evolution-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Evolution] Discourse and the situation for Mailman lists hosted by Gnome.org Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2022 11:19:21 -0400 On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 11:01 -0400, dfc via evolution-list wrote: > What other existing mailing list software can be used if Mailman is > unavailable? Just to reiterate and clarify, there is no "Mailman is unavailable" situation. Mailman has versions that support Python2 and Python3, and Python2 is still supported in many places (but maybe not in Gnome land). Gnome appears to be blaming python2 and Mailman, but it really seems that Gnome just really wants to give up email support in favor of support via web browser (with future ads, click tracking, data harvesting, etc?). I've offered to host, for Gnome, for free, everything they currently have at mail.gnome.org (all they would have to do is switch DNS for the subdomain mail.gnome.org to my systems and provide me with a copy of their current Mailman2 lists and archives). I've been doing Mailman2 mailinglists for 2 decades, and have tons of experience in this area. Sadly, no one from Gnome has contacted me to take me up on this offer. -Jim P. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Discourse and the situation for Mailman lists hosted by Gnome.org
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 11:01 -0400, dfc wrote: > What other existing mailing list software can be used if Mailman is > unavailable? Is Lyris suitable? What features (technically speaking) > must the platform possess? Hi, I can't answer those questions. However, Linux server can run Mailman 3 without issues. See https://lists.archlinux.org/mailman3/lists/arch-general.lists.archlinux.org/ and at the bottom click "Postorius Documentation", it shows: "Requirements Postorius requires Python 3.7+. The minimum Django version is 3.2. Postorius needs a running version of GNU Mailman version 3.3.5." FWIW https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list/2022-October/msg00057.html Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Discourse and the situation for Mailman lists hosted by Gnome.org
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 09:20 -0400, William Oliver wrote: > I strongly suspect that the reason this change is being made is not for > some nefarious "control" reason or some bad goal. I suspect that its > about making it easier for whoever is volunteering to keep this stuff > going. Hi, if so, why was it possible to sent the announcement to the mailing lists at 20 Oct 2022, but impossible to do it earlier, to give the communities a chance to run their own lists? The moderators and subscribers of the lists hosted by GNOME are volunteers, too. "They" gave us less than 2 weeks to find a solution that satisfies another part of the communities. The non-profit GNOME Foundation is not a small project by a few coders, it is a relatively huge foundation. All support forums of proprietary software, let alone FLOSS software, that I know, stay away from gamification, "an allegedly populist idea that actually benefits corporate interests over those of ordinary people" [1]. GNOME is the only exception that I know, that only provides support by Discourse. I've seen that FreeBSD has a Discourse forum, too, but they continue with all kinds of other support channels. FreeBSD has a way better reason to discontinue Mailman, since it's more or less impossible to port Mailman 3 to a FreeBSD servers, hence they simply migrated to another mailing list software. You might be right, but your guess isn't evident. It's hard to believe that you are right. I have got valid doubts. Regards, Ralf [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamification#Criticism ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Discourse and the situation for Mailman lists hosted by Gnome.org
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 13:13 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: > On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 13:45 +0200, Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list > wrote: > > On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 12:31 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: > > > The PTB would all say that this is not abrupt. > > ^^^ > > Pass the bong :D > > > > What is PTB for? > > The "Powers That Be". Usually reserved for faceless people who make > decisions for what they perceive to be the best interests of other > people. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_powers_that_be#:~:text=In%20idiomatic%20English%2C%20%22the%20powers,rather%20than%20a%20subjunctive%20be. Hi thank you, the Wiki link leads to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmo3HFa2vjg ,a nice example that fighting the power is possible. Not necessarily this band, but a lot of bands from this genre are using one of the best record players, that was discontinued by the company. After a petition it's manufactured again, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technics_SL-1200#Re-launch_petition . Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
[Evolution] Let's unite the power of all mailing list subscribers who are affected by GNOME's ruling
Hi,
I'm a long time Evolution mailing list subscriber, who just recently
subscribed to the gimp and mc mailing list, since we all suffer from the
decision that the GNOME mailing lists get shut down this month.
Reading the MC archive I noticed the question regarding groups.io. If
it's free as in beer or not depends on the count of subscribers and the
needed storage space. In short, it likely is not for free as in beer.
I opened a ticket with a request at
https://support.riseup.net/en/ticket/3227QJ76OfCW7Ci7 .
On the Evolution mailing list a user asked
"What other Gnome lists (analogous to evolution-list) are currently
scrambling with the abrupt decision to switch to discourse?
[snip]" -
https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/2022-October/msg00294.html
Let's unite our power{,lessness}!
Regards,
Ralf
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Re: [Evolution] Discourse and the situation for Mailman lists hosted by Gnome.org
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 12:31 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: > The PTB would all say that this is not abrupt. ^^^ Pass the bong :D What is PTB for? ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Discourse and the situation for Mailman lists hosted by Gnome.org
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 06:50 -0400, dfc via evolution-list wrote: > What other Gnome lists (analogous to evolution-list) are currently > scrambling with the abrupt decision to switch to discourse? Hi, all GNOME mailing lists are affected, https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo . I don't know if the majority of subscribers to all mailing lists are upset, but it's a point at https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list/ . What? MC is GNOME? I'm not surprised that the users are pissed off, too, see https://mail.gnome.org/archives/mc/ . Note, not everybody already noticed what's going on. Forwarded Message From: [...] To: ubuntu-us...@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: GNOME drops mailing lists end of this month Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2022 00:05:20 +0800 "[snip] Unfortunately, as I have found today,, this also applies to the The GIMP mailing list. I had not realised that The GIMP is gnome - I had thought the G stood for GNU, not gnome. It is sad that The GIMP is now tainted by the gnomes' actions. [snip]" Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] The system of levels, badges and presents of Discourse
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 11:36 +0200, Andre Klapper wrote:
> On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 10:56 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> > Andre, I'm really upset about your prevarication
>
> Thanks for getting personal again (after "My claims make a lot of sense
> and you are aware of it") instead of concentrating on arguments, no
> matter how over the top (uhm, "Chinese rating systems") they are. :)
Hi,
you claim that a comparison with
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System#Scoring_mechanism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System#Reward_and_punishment
is overdone, but it isn't.
"MIT Professor Kevin Slavin has described business research into
gamification as flawed and misleading for those unfamiliar with gaming.
Heather Chaplin, writing in Slate, describes gamification as "an
allegedly populist idea that actually benefits corporate interests over
those of ordinary people"." -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamification#Criticism
It's the same mechanism, with the same goal. At the moment the
consequences are disastrous for those living a country like China. For
users of GNOME mailing lists the consequences of moving to the
gamification approach is by far not such disastrous, as the >Chinese
credit system, but I never claimed something like this. I was talking
about an "approach" ("Chinese alike approach"). This is not over the
top. In the end market leaders, GNOME belongs to this category, try to
manipulate in the same way. The Internet is kind of an international
country and this oddity just started, it might lead to something even
more worse, than the Social Credit System of China is today.
Regards,
Ralf
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Re: [Evolution] The system of levels, badges and presents of Discourse
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 10:30 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > It isn't a code of conduct that those who joined the gift of Level 1, > soon reach the maximum number of replies and need to wait a day before > they can continue. The correct term is "despotism". PS: Andre, I'm really upset about your prevarication, since I was not allowed to send an email opening a new thread at Level 0, without offending a CoC. Pete who has got Level 1 send too many emails. How much are too man emails? Probably a user at Level one offends the CoC by sending 1 request at each to just a few of all GNOME apps, https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps . ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] The system of levels, badges and presents of Discourse
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 09:48 +0200, Andre Klapper wrote: > I wrote: > > There even isn't the need to moderate or ban users with unwanted > > opinions, since the users are educated by levels, badges and > > presents. > > That's neither logical nor based on a correct assumption. It's not > about "banning users with unwanted opinions" but about Code of > Conduct. Hi, it isn't a CoC that we can't send a support request before we reached Level 1 and got our first present, without offending anything at all. We probably can join the gift of Level 1 by adding a few "Like it, thumb up, 5 of 5 stars" to some GNOME-ish oddities that more or less nobody likes. This is the whole point of a social credit system, well, there are other odd points this gamification does introduce, so it's at least one of the points this system is about. It isn't a code of conduct that those who joined the gift of Level 1, soon reach the maximum number of replies and need to wait a day before they can continue. The correct term is "despotism". You are comparing oranges with bananas. If somebody does violate the real CoC of this mailing list, maybe by continuously calling other subscribers names, the user gets banned from this mailing list, but not from the Gimp or any other GNOME related mailing list. We generally do this in our societies. If somebody gets barred for shop theft by one food shop, this person is still allowed to buy food in another shop, hence there is no need steel the food purchases from grannies in the streets. In a free and social society this approach makes a lot of sense. In my hometown I'm allowed to write an email to the mayors without gaining a "Level" and while all food shops are under the German law, they all are still individual food shops allowed to make individual decision. This is like the difference between individual mailing lists for individual parts of the GNOME project and one forum for everything. My claims make a lot of sense and you are aware of it, hence I will not continue to argue. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
[Evolution] The system of levels, badges and presents of Discourse
By closing individual mailman mailing lists and replacing it with a single forum, everything is under control of a single authority. There even isn't the need to moderate or ban users with unwanted opinions, since the users are educated by levels, badges and presents. IOW all users are under general suspicion to express unwanted opinions, hence everybody is moderated by a credit system. This Chinese alike approach has nothing to do with the "libre" in FLOSS. There are valid reasons to moderate or ban a user, but usually such a user is barred by an individual part of a project, not by the whole universe and before it happens a user must have expressed something that is unwanted. A credit system to stop individual opinions in the first place stops all individual opinions completely. At the worst a "misbehaving" user gets not only banned from one or the other part of the project, but from the whole universe of the superior project. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Thoughts on Discourse and use as a mailing list
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 01:59 +, Dan Kortschak wrote: > This has been my experience with GNOME decision makers in other areas > as well. Failure to engage, diminution of concerns and then moving on > with the tired refrain of it's open source so your could fix it > yourself, and then cycling back to failure to engage. > > "Resistance is useless!" Hi, resistance is not futile! Other communities are also in a pissy mood, see https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list/2022-October/date.html . No community was informed, they have done this in the dead of night. Btw. I started doing almost all my drawing artwork on an iPad and for the work on my FLOSS desktop machine I migrated a long time ago to Krita, since GIMP developers already have broken GIMP a long time ago. Since Evolution depends much on GNOME [1], I expect that the next thing will be radical changes of those dependencies, rendering Evolution useless for a lot of us. Maybe we don't need a new mailing list, once Evolution does look and behave like almost all other GNOME apps. At first the migration from GIMP to Krita wasn't easy. Krita's user interface was less good and it was missing features, but in the long run I got rid of a lot of issues. OTOH KDE / Krita developers welcome users as much as GNOME / Gimp developers do. Qt based apps just don't suffer from such a bad basic concept as a lot of gtk3, let alone gtk4 apps do. In my experiences developers of proprietary software care way more about the users. For drawing, photo and publishing apps the market leader Adobe rips users off and doesn't care about users, but competitors such as Affinity outstrip Adobe. The competitors software nowadays is better and the competitors care about user experiences and the user's wishes. There will be radical changes in the future. Big companies, huge projects of FLOSS as well as proprietary software that overdo things, will take a plunge. The computer market is still quite young, as soon as it is further disenchanted, more and more users will fight back. I wish the GNOME project many, long-lasting DDoS attacks! Regards, Ralf [1] $ pacman -Qi evolution evolution-data-server | grep Depends\ On Depends On : gnome-desktop evolution-data-server libcanberra libpst libytnef gspell libcryptui gnome-autoar libgweather-4 enchant cmark libcamel-1.2.so=63-64 libebook-1.2.so=20-64 libebook-contacts-1.2.so=3-64 libecal-2.0.so=1-64 libedataserver-1.2.so=26-64 libedataserverui-1.2.so=3-64 Depends On : gnome-online-accounts nss krb5 libgweather-4 libical db libgdata libphonenumber libcanberra ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022
On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 19:14 +0200, Torsten Krah wrote: > The problem is we do only have a few days left to discuss that Hi, in 2021 a member of the Ubuntu community started to run an off-topic mailing list. It has got very low traffic, the list archive only contains January 2021, February 2021, May 2021, July 2021 and September 2021 ;), since just a few people started using it for off-topic discussions. Discourse is already an off-topic discussion on the Ubuntu users mailing list, see https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2022-October/308598.html . I suspect that we can stay in contact via https://lists.sonic.net/mailman/listinfo/itsbuntoff . We need to ask https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2021-January/303099.html , I add rikona by Cc. I'm already subscribed. Still open: https://support.riseup.net/en/ticket/3227QJ76OfCW7Ci7 I suspect that https://freeshell.de/about/ can't be used for this purpose. I've got an account, but still need to read. However, if we take some time and stay in contact, we probably will find a solution. End of October isn't the end of the world. We already had an offer or two offers by members of this mailing list, we should keep this/those offers in mind, too. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Thoughts on Discourse and use as a mailing list
On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 17:36 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: > First, a thought about the demise of the Mailman mailing list. A while back FreeBSD migrated from Mailman to another Software and the still provide the old Mailman archive + the Archive of the new mailing list software, for example https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions/ . ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022
On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 09:53 -0500, Anonymous Japhering wrote: > Groups.io is interesting but also there are a few concerning things > The free level only allows up to 100 members -- how many folks are in > the current list? > > All levels have restrictions on archive size: 1GB, 30GB, 1TB. https://riseup.net/en/lists/list-admin/configuration/creating-lists I created a ticket at https://support.riseup.net/en/topics/new . Email: ralf-mardorf at riseup.net Name: Ralf Mardorf Group/Team: Lists Subject:Freedom of Internet users Message: Hi, I suspect that a FLOSS mailing list for a MUA doesn't fit the "only requirement" "that the list must be used for radical social change." OTOH fighting against nowadays Internet lifestyle by some of us is considered "a progressive, radical, or revolutionary nature", hence this request. Evolution is a full featured FLOSS MUA, that can replace proprietary solutions for almost everything. The GNOME project informed the subscribers of the Evolution mailing list 11 days before it will be dropped. The list is discontinued at the end of this month, see https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/2022-October/msg00128.html . The replacement is https://discourse.gnome.org/ , a forum with levels, badges, no real archive, sending mails with remote content. Our community is being threatened by decay, since we can't stand this approach, that is a copy of proprietary approaches, that aren't good for the freedom of Internet usage. Apart from jokes related to the Vogons, we don't have fun, but instead we suffer from fear to loose another free community. I wonder if you would allow us to migrate this list to lists.riseup.net . Almost all subscribers don't care about GNOME at all, we care about a good MUA and a lot of users aren't willing to follow GNOME's migration to Discourse. AFAIK we are around 900 subscribers, used to send plain text emails without attachments. Regards, Ralf PS: This is the ticket: https://support.riseup.net/en/ticket/3227QJ76OfCW7Ci7 Consider to drop a note. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] What do I do now?
On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 13:55 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > So the way to get it working as a proper mailing list is by turning off > Mailing List Mode. So intuitive. Hi, yesno, even after doing so, it is not working as a proper mailing list. The emails are still multipart messages with remote content, there's no real archive etc... If a user unsubscribes from evolution-list@gnome.org no posts are deleted from the archive. After deleting my Discourse account, my posts disappeared. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Oh for heavens sake ....
On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 13:37 -0500, Greg Oliver via evolution-list wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 21, 2022 at 1:31 PM Andrea Veri wrote:
> > There will always be someone complaining but it's fundamental to
> > give things a try and helping out others to succeed as well making
> > sure their workflow is replicated to the new tool/platform/protocol.
Hi,
I gave it a try, but it is an annoyance that doesn't work. Some minority
of subscribers is probably complaining, because the majority isn't aware
of the announcement, yet. As long as nobody succeeded, there is nobody
who can help other to replicate success. It's at least my
{,mis}understanding that nobody succeeded. My understanding is that some
are still willing to test it for while, but nobody seems to like the
experiences made until now.
> Good luck keeping those of us who are absolutely unwilling to join a
> forum.
As one of those who are unwilling to join Discourse, I wish good luck
with keeping those, who are still giving it a chance. Those who ignore
levels, badges and other oddities, are on the long run probably not
amused by HTML emails with remote content.
Regards,
Ralf
___
evolution-list mailing list
evolution-list@gnome.org
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https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Discourse -- Insufficient Trust Level
On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 11:46 -0500, Greg Oliver via evolution-list wrote: > My own family cannot even eat a meal without checking their damn > phones under the table Hi, mobile phones/smartphones are something I like, but since they are completely misused, I don't own one. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] What now?
On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 12:33 -0400, Matt Connell wrote: > I love the idea of re-implementing the mailing list elsewhere. I am > willing to fund it, but I have more money than time/patience these days > and would prefer not to have to administer it. Hi Matt, I don't have enough money, I don't have the skills to maintain a mailing list and I don't have the time to get the required skills. I don't want to "rate" posts, but as a moderator I would be willing to flag spam as spam and I probably have the time to do so at least once a day most days of the year. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Discourse -- Insufficient Trust Level
On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 12:35 -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > The fountain of youth. If that works, I'll sign up again. Getting rid of my reading glasses would be a good start. In a very old photo I'm doing something with a skateboard, it would be nice to do it again. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022
On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 18:41 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > https://discourse.gnome.org/t/a-test-topic-so-that-the-refugees-from-the-evolution-mailing-list-can-try-and-sort-things-out/1170 The complete link does read https://discourse.gnome.org/t/a-test-topic-so-that-the-refugees-from-the-evolution-mailing-list-can-try-and-sort-things-out/11701 ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022
On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 17:19 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: > On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 12:11 -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > > Sorin Srbu via evolution-list said on Fri, 21 Oct 2022 09:50:23 + > > > > > > > Ah, seems like Discourse closes topics after fourteen days with no > > > traffic. Might this be a problem when revisiting the same topic but > > > later? > > > > Yes. > > > It's actually a month now - don't know if that just the Evolution tag > or what. Hi, "This topic will close a month after the last reply" other topics after 14 days. What happens, if the subscriber who posted the last reply deletes the account? I deleted my account a few minutes ago and my post to https://discourse.gnome.org/t/a-test-topic-so-that-the-refugees-from-the-evolution-mailing-list-can-try-and-sort-things-out/1170 vanished. The post wasn't deleted by me. Apart from the deadline issue and all other annoyances, it also seemingly doesn't work as an archive. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
[Evolution] What now?
Hi, after reading https://discourse.gnome.org/t/interacting-with-discourse-via-email/46 I deleted my Discourse account [1]. I tried my best but stopped messing with Discourse. Instead of working on a Wallpaper for the next release of a desktop environment, I wasted most time of the day with the mailing list topic. During the night I have to catch up on this work. What now? Is this the end of the Evolution mailing list community? Regards, Ralf [1] Preferences > Delete My Account > "Are you sure you want to permanently delete your account? This action cannot be undone!" > Delete my Account > "Your account has been deleted successfully." ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Oh for heavens sake ....
On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 17:29 +0200, Torsten Krah wrote: > Am Freitag, dem 21.10.2022 um 14:51 + schrieb Sorin Srbu: > > Oh, great. LOL! > > Now I have to wipe off that coffee I blurted out on the monitors > > laughing while reading these two comments. :*) > > Same for me here, that made my day Hi, the best comedy comment was made by Sorin Srbu [1]. Here primary school children get a smiley stamp for good work and Pete pretty sure gets a badge for his hard work. For this forum folks we are circus monkeys or at best primary school children and we get rewarded with the sound of a click frog, if we do what they want. Basically, we are humiliated and insulted. Regards, Ralf [1] On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 14:10 +, Sorin Srbu wrote: > I'm pretty sure you'll get a badge by tomorrow for your effort today! ;-) ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Oh for heavens sake ....
On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 15:33 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: > On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 16:26 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 14:10 +, Sorin Srbu wrote: > > > I'm pretty sure you'll get a badge by tomorrow for your effort today! > > > ;-) > > > > He's close to the next level :D. > > > Close to something ... I can assure this subject of this was not the > first thing I typed. :D You were probably full of praise for the Social Credit System when you first started typing. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Oh for heavens sake ....
On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 14:10 +, Sorin Srbu via evolution-list wrote: > I'm pretty sure you'll get a badge by tomorrow for your effort today! > ;-) He's close to the next level :D. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022
On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 14:57 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > Evolution is one of the few Gnome apps I use (my desktop is KDE) and I > seriously do *not* want to have to deal with this on a message-by- > message basis. Hi, Evolution isn't the only GNOME app I've got installed, but to my knowledge it's the only one I'm using. I would be surprised, if another app I'm using is a GNOME app, too. To me receiving "Nautilus" related messages, is the same as receiving (other) spam. IOW at the moment I receive lots of spam from Discourse GNOME. > I'm on several technical mailing lists, each of them with their own > management. What they largely have in common is a set of common > practices which people have become used to over a period of many > years. The Gnome lists appear to be moving to platform which is > radically different from every other list I'm on, and which requires a > new set of tools to manage. This is a lot of pain for zero gain as far > as I'm concerned. It already starts with the multipart messages sent by Discourse. I can't disable HTML, since administrative bodies etc. tend to send HTML emails. >From a mailing list I expect to get plain text emails, no multipart, no HTML. HTML is a PITA. I don't expect proper emails from administrative bodies etc., but from BSD and Linux communities I expect a little bit more familiarity related to emails. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
[Evolution] Spam from Discourse - Was: Discourse -- Insufficient Trust Level
Hi, I got two more "[Site Feedback] Please delete my account" emails and one "[Applications] Left Shortcuts Bar Too Wide, Unable to Edit" email. "[Applications] Left Shortcuts Bar Too Wide, Unable to Edit" doesn't contain "Evolution" or "evolution" and the tags are "Applications" and "nautilus", there's no tag "Evolution" or "evolution". Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Discourse -- Insufficient Trust Level
Hi all, hi Pete, I got your Discourse reply by email. It's the first email coming through this "list". The HTML email was send to my GitHub email address, not to my "successfully" changed Discourse email address. The subject starts with "[Side feedback]". This makes sense, since the tag is "Site Feedback". Actually I did not "subscribe" to the tag "Site Feedback". The subject doesn't contain "Evolution", it's "Email usage of discourse - threading", see https://discourse.gnome.org/t/email-usage-of-discourse-threading/11716 . So we probably receive every post unrelated to Evolution, if it contains the word "Evolution". Now the bomb drops, I got an email with the subject "[Site Feedback] Please delete my account". It doesn't contain "volution (I searched without the "E"/"e"). I call this spam. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Discourse -- Insufficient Trust Level
On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 13:42 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: > It doesn't take much to get to Level 1 - I've got there already - but > all new users start at Level 0, which is heavily restricted "for safety > – both theirs and yours". Hi, a forum, is a forum, is a forum, is a forum. See the PPS of [1]: "If a forum post was edited, will the edited post also be send by email?" In the meantime I got a reply, but not by email [2]. I'm not interested to waste more time with this. I already wasted 1½ hours without success. I'm done with this. Regards, Ralf [1] https://discourse.gnome.org/t/a-test-topic-so-that-the-refugees-from-the-evolution-mailing-list-can-try-and-sort-things-out/11701/33 "Hi, I can’t use Discourse by email. I don’t receive any emails and I can’t send an email, see https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/2022-October/msg00209.html . screenshot_20221021_144241 screenshot_20221021_1442411920×1080 267 KB Please reply to evolution-list@gnome.org, since I will not continue using the forum by an Internet browser. Regards, Ralf PS: The editor as well as the preview showed that I quoted averi, but it’s not shown by this post. PPS: If a forum post was edited, will the edited post also be send by email?" [2] https://discourse.gnome.org/t/a-test-topic-so-that-the-refugees-from-the-evolution-mailing-list-can-try-and-sort-things-out/11701/34 "Ralf, don’t use mailing list mode as it doesn’t behave the way you’d expect (you get notified about every single category unless you opt out / mute the categories you’re not interested in). Please see Welcome to GIMP forum on GNOME Discourse and Welcome to Gnome discourse screen reader users to further read on how to properly configure your user profile / mail client." ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] My first attempt to migrate to Discourse
On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 13:54 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa wrote: > I will definitely not go through this. Hi, it anyway doesn't work. I can't post to the discourse mailing list. https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/2022-October/msg00209.html I spend more than 1 hour to subscribe to a mailing list that doesn't work. Usually subscribing to a list takes a few minutes, sometimes just a few seconds or a minute and after that it works without issues. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
[Evolution] Discourse -- Insufficient Trust Level
Hi, discourse is crap². I'm forwarding an original HTML email [1]. Regards, Ralf [1] Forwarded Message From: GNOME Discourse Reply-To: GNOME Discourse To: silver.bullet at zoho... Subject: [GNOME Discourse] Email issue -- Insufficient Trust Level Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2022 12:16:19 + We’re sorry, but your email message to [“applicati...@discourse.gnome.org”] (titled [Evolution] The irks and quirks of the migration from evolution-list to discourse) didn’t work. Your account does not have the required trust level to post new topics to this email address. If you believe this is an error, contact a staff member. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
[Evolution] The irks and quirks of the migration from evolution-list to discourse
Hi, I'm new to discourse. I'm sorry, but I need to send a test email. Regards, Ralf PS: Cc'ed to the evolution-list. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
[Evolution] [partly solved] My first attempt to migrate to Discourse
On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 12:38 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > Go to your Preferences, then click on Emails (on the left). Near the > bottom of the page is a tick-box which enables mailing list behaviour. Thank you! Oops! "Include previous replies at the bottom of emails" Ahh! "Mailing list mode enabled. Email notification settings are overridden." I can only chose between 1. "Send me an email for every new post (about 25 per day)" 2. "Send an email for every new post except my own" Since I chose the first one, I probably will not receive email number 26+?! Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
[Evolution] My second attempt to migrate to Discourse failed, too - Aka Re: My first attempt to migrate to Discourse
20. "Welcome back! Incorrect username, email or password"... 21. ...but "with GitHub" I can log in again. 22. Puzzle piece/space invaders icon > Bust icon > Preferences 23. Added alternate email silver.bullet at zoho... 24. Evolution retrieved emails 25. Ralf clicked confirmation link 26. This was wrong, hence I clicked "Preferences" again 27. I clicked the wrench icon 28. I clicked change email 29. Cahnged to silver.bullet at zoho... 30. Evolution retrieved emails 31. Ralf clicked the new confirmation link Nr. 1 32. "Sorry, this confirmation link is no longer valid. Perhaps your email was already changed?" 33. Ralf clicked the new confirmation link Nr. 2 (yes, I got two of them this time) 34. "Please confirm you would like to add an alternate email address: silver.bullet at zoho... [done] Incidental remark From time to time it's a good idea to close one or the other tab opened by the confirmation links. 35. I clicked "Preferences" again 36. I clicked "Notifications" (just related to the forums) 37. I clicked "Tags" 38. Select gtk, glib, python, vala, rust nothing else, excepted of "Muted", it shows "evolution" Sorry, I'm too stupid! How can I enable mailing list behaviour. Please provide a step by step guide. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
[Evolution] My first attempt to migrate to Discourse
Hi, 1. I opened https://discourse.gnome.org/ with Waterfox. 2. I clicked "Log In" 3. I clicked "with GitHub" 4. Evolution retrieved emails 5. I copied the verification code to the GidHub device verification 6. "GNOME Discourse by GNOME Infrastructure Automation Bot wants to access your R-a-l-f account" 7. I authorized gnomesysadmins 8. Authorizing did redirect to https://discourse.gnome.org 9. "Welcome! Let's create your account" 10. I clicked "Create your account" 11. White text on a shadowed forum interface: "Your first notification! Select it to begin. I'll read it later. Not your first time? Skip these tips" 12. I read the "Greetings! Thanks for joining GNOME Discourse, and welcome! I’m only a robot, but our friendly staff are also here to help if you need to reach a person. For safety reasons, we temporarily limit what new users can do. You’ll gain new abilities (and badges) as we get to know you. We believe in civilized community behavior at all times. If you’d like to learn more, select below and bookmark this personal message. If you do, there may be a :gift: in your future!" 13. I clicked the search icon and searched for "applicati...@discourse.gnome.org" 14. The search returned "No results found." 15. I searched for "evolution" "in all topics and posts" 16. I selected the latest entry with the tags "Applications" "evolution" "calendar" 17. I clicked the "evolution" tag 18. I muted the bell icon. I've got no idea how to continue to subscribe to a mailing list behaviour, let alone that I still would have to change the GitHub mail account for Discourse to my Evolution mailing list account. 19. I should search my Evolution mailing list emails. IIRC somebody sent a howto. Maybe I will do so, but not right now. Even if we should be able to use this thingy as a mailing list, there will unlikely be a lot of new subscribers who are friends of mailing lists, hence new subscribers will probably not follow posting style etiquette (if this should be possible at all), let alone that Evolution Discourse subscribers that were using it way before we subscribe(ed), unlikely will care about those of us, who are in favour of mailing list style and etiquette. This was my first attempt to migrate to Discourse. It failed, since the forum interface isn't intuitive to use. The layout is a PITA, absolutely nothing easily leads to a mailing list behaviour. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Automatic tagging as "important"
On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 12:29 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > my mailing list account is a POP account. Here the flag isn't set. For > testing purpose I prioritized this message to the list. IIRC even > messages with the appropriate header aren't flagged with a high > priority. Hi, the mail contains "X-Priority: 1", no flag is set. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Automatic tagging as "important"
On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 11:44 +0200, Milan Crha via evolution-list wrote: > On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 09:07 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: > > Out of interest, does it happen for other people on Evolution? > > Hi, > no, not for me. Andrea's mail is shown here as a regular mail, no Label > (evolution's terminology) is set, neither the flag is set. > > No idea what could do that. Evo on its own surely not, not > intentionally. Hi, my mailing list account is a POP account. Here the flag isn't set. For testing purpose I prioritized this message to the list. IIRC even messages with the appropriate header aren't flagged with a high priority. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022
On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 23:03 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: > Have you ever read "Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy"? So I'm not the only one :). ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Announcement: this mailing list will be retired by the end of Oct 2022
On Thu, 2022-10-20 at 22:43 +0200, Andrea Veri wrote: > what you're saying is a honestly a bit unfair, lists decommission has > been communicated multiple times over the past few months Hi, a lot of Evolution users don't use GNOME or any other DE at all. “There’s no point in acting surprised about it. All the planning charts and demolition orders have been on display at your local planning department in Alpha Centauri for 50 of your Earth years, so you’ve had plenty of time to lodge any formal complaint and it’s far too late to start making a fuss about it now. … What do you mean you’ve never been to Alpha Centauri? Oh, for heaven’s sake, mankind, it’s only four light years away, you know. I’m sorry, but if you can’t be bothered to take an interest in local affairs, that’s your own lookout. Energize the demolition beams.” ― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] What do I do now?
Hi, an email client community needs a mailing list, not a WhatsApp group or a forum or an IRC channel. Evolution is an email client, but emails aren't good enough for communication related to the email client? If so, then the GNOME project should stop providing an email client at all. The end of the month is in 11 days. It's impossible to find a replacement for Evolution within 11 days, but I can't take an email client without a user mailing list seriously. The reason to install an email client is to communicate by emails, not to communicate by using a web browser or a messenger. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] 3.46.0 interface question
On Sun, 2022-10-16 at 19:38 +0200, Andre Klapper wrote: > That's off-topic (as Evolution doesn't use GTK version 4). Hi, my point is, that nowadays https://github.com/ZaWertun/gtk3-nocsd does help, but soon or later Evolution likely migrates to gtk4 and then there's no workaround to get rid of it. OTOH I'm not quite sure if it will solve all issues mentioned by the OP. Tool bars tend to use ambiguous icons, whatever icon theme is used and text is only provided for a few tool bar options, several options only show an icon. To me it sounds like the OP is facing several issues, not only the CSD thingy. Maybe I misunderstood the OP's request. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] 3.46.0 interface question
On Sun, 2022-10-16 at 19:34 +0300, Tim Ehrenhaft wrote: > How do i get the previous interface back? Hi, I don't use a desktop environment, but just a plain window manager named openbox. To get rid of gtk3 client side decoration on an up to date Arch Linux rolling release, I'm using https://github.com/ZaWertun/gtk3-nocsd git version r82.512c2bd. It works without causing any trouble. However, it doesn't help with gtk4 applications. To use a gtk4 application you need to be able to read, since icons for min/max/close are dropped and replaced by a right click menu with text only. There's no title at all anymore. IOW gtk4 is a design disaster and Evolution soon or later migrates to gtk4, too. While gtk3-nocsd usually works without issues on Ubuntu flavours, I don't know if it is helpful for apps installed by a flatpak. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] weird bug: mismatch between the message list and preview pane
On Fri, 2022-10-07 at 18:31 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: > > I think that's tremendously unfair. I've used IMAP based accounts for > many, many years and never had any issues with them. They are > infinitely more workable when you use more than one client - I > currently have something like 10 clients on different OS's and lots of > different MUAs and NEVER had any issues. [snip] > BTW, I suspect that these sorts of issues are down to the IMAP server. > [...] Hi, maybe I read more about IMAP than POP account related issues, because more people are using IMAP, than POP. However, issues caused by the server do count as much, as issues caused by the client. For my POP accounts I set Evolution like this: Edit > Accounts > (Choose an account) > Receiving options > [x] Leave Message on server Delete after n day(s) In my case n is 1 day. All other MUAs don't delete the emails from the server. If I send an email that I need on more than one MUA, I Bcc to myself. This doesn't replace all IMAP features for everybody's workflow, but it works perfectly for me. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] weird bug: mismatch between the message list and preview pane
Hi, IIUC you are asking for an option to rebuild the folder tree, hence I suspect you are using IMAP accounts. It's one of the reasons for me to stay with POP accounts, since those are completely free from such maintenance work on almost all MUAs, while there isn't a day without similar IMAP account related questions on at least one MUA's mailing list. Maybe run evolution --force-shutdown backup (cp -ai) ~/.config/evolution/mail/ as well as ~/.local/share/evolution/ after that take a look at those paths, perhaps there is something you can move (mv -i) out of the way for testing purpose, so Evolution might sync everything again after launching it. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Logwatch reports segmentation faults in Evolution
On Sat, 2022-10-01 at 10:36 +0200, Andre Klapper wrote: > We still have no idea what "Logwatch" is. Hi, maybe the OP does use https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Logwatch , also see https://sourceforge.net/projects/logwatch/ or https://ubuntu.com/server/docs/logwatch . Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Is there a way to set the interface back to what it was?
On Fri, 2022-09-30 at 19:56 +0200, Andre Klapper via evolution-list wrote: > On Fri, 2022-09-30 at 18:52 +0200, aguador via evolution-list wrote: > > To clarify: CSD does not make text disappear (AFAIK). However, it is as > > much a "feature" as a reply button that deletes the original > > message.* > > I see. IMO there is quite a difference between respectfully expressing > "I personally do not like that user interface concept for some reasons" > versus "It's all so totally wrong nobody should ever implement this". Hi, it's off-topic, however, you are probably aware that weapon system or even civil glass cockpit GUIs must fulfil requirements related to ease of use and security, while OTOH some mobile phone or tablet app GUIs are designed to condition the user like a pavlosian dog or train the user like a circus monkey, to easily outwit the user, to pay for things the user doesn't need. The CSD design is not aimed to rip off users, but it partly copies this kind of bad mobile phone and tablet apps GUIs. The reason is probably that the developers are already conditioned to this kind of design. While a classic GUI windows and menu design not necessarily fulfils glass cockpit standards, it at least doesn't treat the user like a circus monkey or pavlosian dog and is way closer to this kind of good GUI design. IOW it's not just something a user personally does like or doesn't like, it's something you can rate by scientific studies. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Crashes after updating to 3.46.0
PS: https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Evolution#Evolution_in_Flatpak is misleading, it mentions "Flathub contains the latest stable version." ^^^ is this link: https://flathub.org/apps/details/org.gnome.Evolution IIUC it's providing 3.46.0, which obviously is not the stable release. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Crashes after updating to 3.46.0
On Wed, 2022-09-28 at 11:59 -0500, Michael via evolution-list wrote: > After updating to 3.46.0 on both my Ubuntu 22.04.1 (Wayland) laptop > and my Pop OS 22.04.1 (Wayland) laptop, Evolution randomly closes and > this is the error in terminal: > > (evolution.bin:26): GLib-GObject-CRITICAL **: 11:56:29.983: > g_object_ref: assertion '!object_already_finalized' failed > /app/bin/evolution: line 33: 26 Segmentation fault (core dumped) > /app/bin/evolution.bin "$@" > > > Michael > Hi Michael, since you are seemingly using a Flathub.org version of the version before "The latest development snapshot tarballs (3.45 series", you probably should report it to https://flathub.org/apps/details/org.gnome.Evolution and/or "if you are certain that you have found a software bug in the code, use GNOME Gitlab. Refer to the #Online Support section above if you are not sure", see https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Evolution . Programmers will probably read your report here, too, but might forget it, if it's not reported to the bug tracker. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Is there a way to set the interface back to what it was?
On Wed, 2022-09-14 at 01:41 +0200, Ángel wrote: > I am looking at gedit as a representative application. Professional grade iPadOS apps for music and graphic are using old faithful menus. To get things done menus are even not dropped on portable devices. Menus are dropped for unprofessional software only, it has nothing to do with phones and tablets vs desktop computers. Btw. gtk3-nocsd seems still to work, see attachment. FWIW I prefer Xed over Pluma. [rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ pacman -Q gtk3-nocsd-git gedit pluma xed gtk3-nocsd-git r72.4e1c45d-1 gedit 42.2-1 pluma 1.26.0-2 xed 3.2.7-1 [rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ pactree --reverse gtk4 gtk4 ├─ghex ├─gtksourceview5 │ ├─gnome-calculator │ └─zrythm ├─libadwaita │ ├─gnome-calculator │ └─zrythm └─zrythm [rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ pactree --reverse gtk3 | grep -egedit -epluma -exed │ ├─gedit │ └─xed │ ├─gigedit-svn │ ├─gedit │ ├─pluma │ └─xed │ │ └─xed │ ├─gedit │ ├─pluma │ └─xed │ └─pluma │ └─pluma ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Is there a way to set the interface back to what it was?
On Tue, 2022-09-13 at 08:39 +0200, Milan Crha via evolution-list wrote: > It's called Client Side Decorations Hi, a long time ago I installed gtk3-nocsd, not for Evolution, but maybe it does affect Evolution, too. I'm not on Evolution 3.45.3 yet. [rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ pacman -Qi gtk3-nocsd-git evolution | grep - eName -eVersio -eDescription -eURL Name: gtk3-nocsd-git Version : r72.4e1c45d-1 Description : A hack to disable gtk+ 3 client side decoration URL : https://github.com/ZaWertun/gtk3-nocsd Name: evolution Version : 3.44.4-1 Description : Manage your email, contacts and schedule URL : https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Evolution Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Restoring Evolution
On Tue, 2022-08-30 at 21:33 -0700, Mr. J wrote: > So there's something about the process or > the external hard drive (or both?) that prevents the creation of a > valid .tar.gz backup file on my hard drive. It was recently > formatted, so I'm at a loss to explain. Hi, while even a brand new drive could be broken, I'm still sceptic. Drives have got mechanisms to detect and mark bad blocks and to automagically rewrite data. It could happen that a block was ok when writing and got broken 10 minutes later when trying to read, this is possible, but not much likely and it unlikely was a write error, the drive couldn't workaround, since such a write error more or less without doubts would have caused error messages. On Tue, 2022-08-30 at 22:20 -0700, Mr.J wrote: > That’s IT, I think. The external drive is formatted in FAT, and not > exFAT. If both .tar.gz files were over 4gb, I (over) cooked my own > goose. Talk about noobie errors. If the file size was too large for the file system, it still doesn't explain why there was no standard error stream and appropriate exit status. Such an event would have caused error messages. As already mentioned by previous mails, tar doesn't always provide error messages when something goes wrong and the exit status could be 0, even if an archive is corrupted, _but_ any IO error, e.g. a write error due to a hardware issue or a violation of the size limit does cause error messages. This is at least what I experienced. Assuming you are using Linux, if you don't share the drive among different operating systems, consider to format the partition/s with ext4. I'm usually using ext4 only and sometimes a very small FAT32 partition for BIOS usage. To share data between Linux and iPadOS by an external drive, I'm using hfs+. Unfortunately hfs+ isn't well supported by Linux. Each time the drive was connected to iPadOS, I need to run fsck.hfsplus on Linux, bevor I can more or less safely write to the drive. Very seldom data gets lost without notification and seemingly for no reason. "Very seldom" is still way to often for backup purpose. Whatever kind of FAT is used, it doesn't hold UNIX-alike information used by Linux and iPadOS. OTOH this UNIX-alike information might be irrelevant when sharing data among Linux and iPadOS. In short, I still don't know what file system I'll use in the future for this shared data. For convenience I run Windows 11 as well as older Windows releases neither on bare metal, nor as a QEMU/KVM guest or something similar, but as a VirtualBox guest on a Linux host, hence sharing files among Linux and Windows neither requires a special server, nor a non-Linux file system. Unfortunately even the VirtualBox Oracle branded binaries are often a PITA, not that much as from packages provided by distros, but still a problem child. Sharing data among operating systems isn't fun! It's half-baked crap and file systems used for sharing data shouldn't be used for backups. Yes, tar does hold UNIX-alike information inside the archive, FAT is better supported than hfs+, but it's still not a good choice for Linux backups. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Restoring Evolution
On Tue, 2022-08-30 at 11:51 -0500, c. marlow wrote: > > > I'd go back to Claws if the backup / restore feature was removed from > Evo. Hi, you are in favour of Evolution, just because it offers this option? Claws probably doesn't provide this feature for good reasons. IMO this is the best solution for Evolution (Claws and any other MUA), on Tue, 2022-08-30 at 17:43 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > It's simple to get the same result as the current Backup function by > just running a tar command on the command line. Perhaps that should be > made explicit in the Help, with appropriate caveats, and the function > removed from the UI to avoid misleading the user. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Restoring Evolution
On Tue, 2022-08-30 at 10:29 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: > Table-After-Creation is a good rule. Hi, when using tar by command line it's necessary to do it, not only to check that the archive is not corrupt, but also to rule out user errors, such as path typos or not having thought of globbing. Even if we could trust the exit status of tar, we can't trust ourselves. You're having a bad day and using the asterisk in the path inappropriately, that's it. You get an intact archive, but with wrong content from a completely wrong path, by a typo that does replace a "/" by a "*" or at least you might be missing hidden directories or hidden files, if the path ends with a "/*". One should always keep in mind that some people win the lottery or are struck by lightning. IOW a typo or carelessness can happen, too. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Restoring Evolution
On Tue, 2022-08-30 at 11:49 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: > I would possibly go as far as to say that that particular functionality > has run its course and could be consigned to the big bit-bucket in the > sky. Hi, _yes_, announce that you will remove it and unless no user should veto, remove it. > Perhaps take it off the main 'File' menu and change it to > something like "Save account settings" in the preferences and not > backup the actual stored messages. _No_, don't do things by halves. Away with it! Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Restoring Evolution
On Mon, 2022-08-29 at 18:33 -0700, Mr.J wrote: > Could the size of the file caused the problem? Hi, yesno. It depends on the file system and the size of the archive, so indeed, yes, the file can become too large to fit. When generating the archive and the size or any other issue should be the cause for an error, then tar should return an exit status greater than zero. IOW tar should inform you about the error already when creating the archive fails. My guess is, that Evolution isn't the culprit, but tar is the culprit. I'm doing regular backups by command line using tar and very seldom, but OTOH that often that it stands out, the archives are corrupted. I'm doing my backups by rotation on many different external drives, that are for sure 100% ok. The backups are done by a script writing the exit status of each tar command to a log file. All corrupted archives were created with an exit status 0, IOW without an error. Btw. usually my scripts are generate tar.gz archives, too. When the archives are created and saved, my backups are not done. I don't trust the exit status of tar. Right after the archives are saved I open all archives for testing purpose. If an archive is corrupted, I repeat the backup. FWIW USB to SATA can be a pain, too. However, if something is fishy with this, then you get informed about IO errors, a read-only drive or similar. Such mistakes do not go unnoticed, the exit status of tar is always greater than zero. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Keeping email on the server
On Fri, 2022-08-19 at 22:51 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: > You could try to CC:/BCC: yourself on the emails, then at least you > have more chance of getting a saved email with headers. (There's an > option to do that in Evolution under "Composing Messages" in the > account editor.) But if they are blocking you at SMTP time, then the > mail won't get far enough to even send you the BCC:. Your ISP can't > expect full headers if they won't let the mail get that far. Hi, I'm using the Bcc to myself strategy a lot, but as you say, the OP's mails may not come far enough. > I suspect the instructions they gave you are generic ones for when people say > "Why is this email in my spam folder" not when you are the source that > is being blocked. Replace the word "suspect" by "without doubts". Take into account that the ISP also said > 1. Highlight the message in your email client. > 2. Right-click on the message and select "Save As..." > 3. Choose Mail/Mail Files (*.eml). > 4. Click Save. The only common thing missing is 5. Was this guidance helpful? This "5." is what an ISP usually does ask by the provided online guide, but a real human working for the ISP does "5." not paste into a reply by an email or a chat or the human does not read of "5." when "helping" by telephone. In my experiences with real humans helping on behave of the ISP or averaged computer users helping by ISP related forums, you get absolutely idiotic replies only. User: Foo bar verification is disabled. The app passwords worked for one and another MUA, but stopped working for one MUA, while it still works for another MUA. I renewed the app-password for one MUA, but it still doesn't work. ISP or another user: You need to disable foo bar verification, before you can use an app-password. Regards, Ralf Was this reply helpful? [Yes] [No, it wasn't just helpful, it was very, very helpful] ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail
On Tue, 2022-08-16 at 11:12 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > We've been over this before. There's nothing stopping you from syncing > your IMAP account to your local machine. There is *NO* advantage to > using POP, and a number of disadvantages. The only reason to ever use > it is if your mail provider doesn't support IMAP. Hi, my bad, I haven't read the whole thread. I've got different "local" machines with different operating systems. Offline-IMAP can be a PITA and might be more or less impossible on some machines. Setting up a POP account is straightforward for power users as well as noobs. If only one MUA deletes the POP mails from the server, after n days, the mails are similar accessible by different MUAs as IMPA mails are, but without all the offline IMAP issues, such as duplicated emails. And as already pointed out by my riseup.net link, quota is an issue, maybe not for spoiled people, but for all those watching every penny. Much likely we will easily find more "exceptional cases", such as the one mentioned by Jaroslaw Rafa. However, all of us are aware of common pitfalls of IMAP as well as POP. Why don't I see this or that folder? Spam filtering on the server vs on the machine, both has got pros and cons. I will not convince anybody that POP is better than IMAP. The only point I make is that POP can be better than IMAP for some users under some circumstances. Nobody should fool around with gmail, despite of being in favour of POP or IMAP. No gmail, less problems. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail
On Tue, 2022-08-16 at 09:47 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > > On 16. Aug 2022, at 01:59, Adam Tauno Williams > > wrote: > > > > I strongly encourage NOT using POP. It is an old protocol AND IT ADDS > > NO VALUE, none what-so-ever. It doesn't, do not believe anyone who > > tells you otherwise. > > One of the reasons is to relief email servers run for free as in beer by > activists. PS: See https://riseup.net/en/email/clients and https://riseup.net/en/email/settings/quota . ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail
On Mon, 2022-08-15 at 19:59 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: > On Mon, 2022-08-15 at 17:24 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > > On Mon, 2022-08-15 at 06:08 -0300, Francisco M Neto wrote: > > > Nevertheless, I want to add email through POP; I *really* don't > > > want > > > to keep anything in google's hands. > > Up to you of course, but that logic doesn't make sense to me. > > +1,000,000,000 Hi, if the emails are on your machine, than Google can't deny access to your old, already received emails. If the emails are on a Google server, they can deny access to your old, already received emails. An authority might advice Google to deny access and Google might obey. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Evolution and gmail
> On 16. Aug 2022, at 01:59, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: > > I strongly encourage NOT using POP. It is an old protocol AND IT ADDS > NO VALUE, none what-so-ever. It doesn't, do not believe anyone who > tells you otherwise. Hi, I’m in favour of POP for several reasons. One of the reasons is to relief email servers run for free as in beer by activists. However, I’m using POP only also for accounts that aren’t accounts on a activists’ email servers. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
