Re: [Evolution] Full history in reply
On Mon, 2020-06-15 at 08:35 +1000, Ian wrote: > Below is a test using a couple of common email clients" (Note the top > the full history and top posting as it's the convention in my place of > work ;-) Your test confirms exactly what Pete and I (and others) have been saying, and does *not* show what you claim it shows. I don't know how it can be explained to you more clearly. poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Full history in reply
El lun, 15-06-2020 a las 00:57 +0100, Pete Biggs escribió: > > > The fact that you conflate this with with top posting Microsoft, > > google etc doing things is a manner which doesn't agree with your > > views isn't really relevant. > > Well, it is, because the Outlook style of replying makes it look like > the included messages are included as whole discrete messages - it > doesn't encourage people to trim their replies. This style of > replying > was something that Outlook did when no other email client of the time > did; Actually to add my two cents as well, Pete is exactly right. I was an early user of Outlook and so easily accepted the HTML default and the top posting. I now have a friend who uses the HTML-top posting default and, in replies to longer messages, winds up placing something like "See " at the top and then inserting comments with these leading characters in the HTML text. That works, but is much less efficient than plain text with the ">" marking the previous material, allowing you to find the comments easily. Some years ago when a group I thought of joining wanted me to sign up to use their Slack account, I had to investigate what it was and came across a review that gushed about how much better Slack was than e- mail. My immediate reaction was that the reviewer simply did not know how to use e-mail. Roy ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Full history in reply
> > I think the suggestion was that "It was an option" I would also like > this option. From a business perspective it ensures that the entire > conversation can be seen in a single document. Yes it costs a little > more in storage but storage is cheap. > > Also other mail clients do exactly this. I suggest that you test with > the more common email clients. And you have almost completely missed the point of what everyone is saying. Evolution DOES include all the text of the email you are responding to - that text may contain copies of the emails that other people have responded to and they too will be included if, and this is important, they are present in the text of the email. This is how every mail client behaves. What Evolution doesn't do, nor does any other, is to include any text that isn't part of the email you are replying to: it doesn't include "messages" or emails or text or attachments that are not already part of the email. If someone edits the message they are replying to to remove irrelevant parts, the text isn't restored by the client adding in the text from other messages at the bottom that it miraculously finds in your Inbox. > > The fact that you conflate this with with top posting Microsoft, > google etc doing things is a manner which doesn't agree with your > views isn't really relevant. Well, it is, because the Outlook style of replying makes it look like the included messages are included as whole discrete messages - it doesn't encourage people to trim their replies. This style of replying was something that Outlook did when no other email client of the time did; Microsoft also shoe-horned "rich text" emails into the previously purely text based systems, and in doing so they realised it meant that the conventional and standards based method of including emails that you are replying to (i.e. text with '> ' quote markers) didn't work so they had to create this system of adding the whole of the message to the bottom of the email you are composing - originally the message was included as an attachment, so uneditable, and was just displayed at the bottom of the text to make it look like it was inline - but it only worked in Outlook until other MUAs were forced to try and accommodate what Microsoft had done to a previously perfectly acceptable system. And now it's virtually impossible to get Outlook to reply in any way other than what it thinks you should - when you reply it will even hide the text that it is including, so I suppose that's why people think it magically inserts the other messages - hint: it doesn't, they were there all along. <> > > Keep on track, standards (rather than convention) based and try to be > a bit inclusive. If only people would be standards based - there are a lot of standards that are studiously ignored by many MUAs in favour of what their designers prefer and have now become conventions "in the work place". > > Below is a test using a couple of common email clients" (Note the top > the full history and top posting as it's the convention in my place > of work ;-) Is this your place of work?? It is the CONVENTION on this list to not top post and not to use HTML, kindly keep to the conventions if that is what is important to you. > > > > Test 4 > > On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 at 08:32, Ian wrote: > > Test 3 > > > > -Original Message- > > > > Subject: Re: Test 1 > > Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 08:29:50 +1000 > > > > Test 2 > > > > On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 at 08:28, Ian wrote: > > > test 1 > > > > And in what way does Evolution NOT do this?? Look VVV down there VVV - you can see that Evolution has done that when you replied to Patrick's message - it included the message you were replying to. > Cheers > Ian > > > -Original Message- > From: Patrick O'Callaghan > To: evolution-list@gnome.org > Subject: Re: [Evolution] Full history in reply > Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 10:50:42 +0100 > > On Wed, 2020-06-10 at 06:41 +, jiri.one via evolution-list wrote: > Hi, > ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Full history in reply
Hi All, I think the suggestion was that "It was an option" I would also like this option. From a business perspective it ensures that the entire conversation can be seen in a single document. Yes it costs a little more in storage but storage is cheap. Also other mail clients do exactly this. I suggest that you test with the more common email clients. The fact that you conflate this with with top posting Microsoft, google etc doing things is a manner which doesn't agree with your views isn't really relevant. Just as if you don't like a members of a particular race or sexual orientation whilst it might be relevant to you, it's not really relevant to including the history in a reply. Keep on track, standards (rather than convention) based and try to be a bit inclusive. Below is a test using a couple of common email clients" (Note the top the full history and top posting as it's the convention in my place of work ;-) Test 4 On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 at 08:32, Ian wrote: > Test 3 > > -Original Message- > > Subject: Re: Test 1 > Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 08:29:50 +1000 > > Test 2 > > On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 at 08:28, Ian wrote: > > test 1 Cheers Ian -Original Message- From: Patrick O'Callaghan To: evolution-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Evolution] Full history in reply Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 10:50:42 +0100 On Wed, 2020-06-10 at 06:41 +, jiri.one via evolution-list wrote:Hi, when I reply to email, in the text of email history is just last email from sender, but not the whole thread / full history of our conversation. Is it possible to set this somewhere or I will need to make feature request? There is no email client I am aware of that supports this. Too many people are in the habit of quoting the entire message whenthey reply, and if everyone does this then the result is a completetrace of the conversation, but that is a consequence of a) Microsoft'sbrain-dead decision to promote top-posting in Outlook, contrary to allprevious practice, which was then slavishly followed by other softwareincluding Gmail, and b) users being either too lazy or too incompetentto trim the material they quote. This practice is not welcome on mailing lists, which already have theentire thread archived anyway, so we try to encourage people not totop-post and to trim their quotes to the relevant part of the message(very easy to do in Evolution). poc ___evolution-list mailing listevolution-list@gnome.orgTo change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ...https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Full history in reply
On Thu, 2020-06-11 at 08:54 -0600, Zan Lynx wrote: > On 6/11/20 8:44 AM, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: > > To be fair M$-Outlook [which many people, sadly, except as the gold > > standard of e-mail] just includes all the trash, including > > signatures, > > by default, in every ___ reply. So it sort of does this as > > most > > user's never both to delete anything. > Outlook also makes it impossible to have a real signature. I tried > pretty hard, but I never managed to get Outlook to put "-- " as a > signature delimiter. It always wants to trim the trailing space. Not > to mention, getting it to do plain text is nearly impossible. Agree [my employer moved to Outlook ~3 years ago]. Outlook immensely diminishes the usefulness of e-mail as a collaboration tool. I accept that as the reason e-mail has so much fallen out of favor - Outlook ruined it - and why we know have to live with a random collection of silos in the form of web forums, chat thingys, etc... Really, there is no reason to include an entire thread in an e-mail message - - - you have the thread in your mailbox: assuming clients "In-reply-to" correctly. E-mail is a very robust and evolved communications solutions - if people let it work. :( -- Adam Tauno Williams, awill...@whitemice.org Multi-Modal Activists Against Auto Dependent Development resisting the unAmerican socialists of the Motorist hegemony http://www.mmaaadd.org ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Full history in reply
On 6/11/20 8:44 AM, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: To be fair M$-Outlook [which many people, sadly, except as the gold standard of e-mail] just includes all the trash, including signatures, by default, in every ___ reply. So it sort of does this as most user's never both to delete anything. Outlook also makes it impossible to have a real signature. I tried pretty hard, but I never managed to get Outlook to put "-- " as a signature delimiter. It always wants to trim the trailing space. Not to mention, getting it to do plain text is nearly impossible. -- Knowledge is Power -- Power Corrupts Study Hard -- Be Evil ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Full history in reply
On Thu, 2020-06-11 at 01:33 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: > On Thu, 2020-06-11 at 09:25 +1000, Ian wrote: > > What no client ever does is to include all the other mail messages in a > thread. That would mean in this thread it would join together six > messages even though they are not part of the message I'm replying to - > I have threads of hundreds of messages and I really don't want all > those messages being added every time I reply to the thread To be fair M$-Outlook [which many people, sadly, except as the gold standard of e-mail] just includes all the trash, including signatures, by default, in every ___ reply. So it sort of does this as most user's never both to delete anything. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Full history in reply
On Thu, 2020-06-11 at 09:25 +1000, Ian wrote: > By convention I would expect that all of the messages are included in > the reply. Most mail clients do this, why not evolution > > Which mail clients behave in the manner that you describe. Every email client I know of, including Thunderbird, Claws, Elm, Mutt, Kmail, Outlook and Gmail. I think Pete has explained this fully so I won't elaborate further. poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Full history in reply
On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:17:36 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: >On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 09:25:10 +1000, Ian wrote: >>Which mail clients behave in the manner that you describe. > >Apart from Evolution the graphical user interface mailers doing this by >default are at least Claws-Mail and Sylpheed. IIRC Kmail does it also. >Most likely almost all, if not all BSD and Linux text-based user >interface mailers do. Correction: I was referring to the cursor position below the quoted message/s. Actually I've never heard of any mailer including the text of a complete thread when replying. Could you name some? Mailers just include the text of the mail you are replying to, some with, other without signature. Evolution includes the original message, too. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Full history in reply
On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 09:25:10 +1000, Ian wrote: >Which mail clients behave in the manner that you describe. Apart from Evolution the graphical user interface mailers doing this by default are at least Claws-Mail and Sylpheed. IIRC Kmail does it also. Most likely almost all, if not all BSD and Linux text-based user interface mailers do. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Full history in reply
On Thu, 2020-06-11 at 09:25 +1000, Ian wrote: > By convention I would expect that all of the messages are included in > the reply. Most mail clients do this, why not evolution > > Which mail clients behave in the manner that you describe. I really think you have got terminology mixed up here. When you reply in evolution it will include the message you are replying to - either quoted as I have done here, or inline as you have done (aka "Outlook style") depending on your preferences. I would normally remove the irrelevant parts of the message I'm replying to, but I've left them in here to illustrate the point. That message you are replying to may, or may not, have, as part of the text, a copy of the messages that each person replied to that *they* have included. It is still *ONE* message (but with lots of other bits of text included) - as more and more people reply, each message gets bigger and bigger. What no client ever does is to include all the other mail messages in a thread. That would mean in this thread it would join together six messages even though they are not part of the message I'm replying to - I have threads of hundreds of messages and I really don't want all those messages being added every time I reply to the thread. You see some of us are of the opinion that there is no need to include the whole of an email underneath what your reply. The sensible thing is to intersperse your replies in the relevant parts of the email you are quoting (note "quoting", not "including") so that there is a conversation - you can have multiple levels of quoting so it is clear which message/person you are replying to; and you trim the message so that you don't include irrelevant parts. There is no need for every single message to have all the quoted/included messages because you already have all the messages in your Inbox and they should be properly threaded so that you can find the email history without scrolling through thousands of lines of included text. Some of us are also of the opinion that replying above a message is not a logical thing to do - you put replies underneath questions, not above and it's helpful to trim messages so you only include relevant bits. If you just reply above the message you have to do linguistic gymnastics to try and describe what you are talking about: "in paragraph 3 of the third message below X said in reply to the 5th message from Y". Just quote the necessary bits, it's easier. BTW, this including the whole email and just replying above it is called "Top Posting". It is frowned-on on many technical mailing lists like this, as is posting in HTML. Please don't do it. P. > > -Original Message- > From: Andre Klapper > To: evolution-list@gnome.org > Subject: Re: [Evolution] Full history in reply > Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 08:57:36 +0200 > > On Wed, 2020-06-10 at 06:41 +, jiri.one via evolution-list wrote: > > when I reply to email, in the text of email history is just last > email from sender, but not the whole thread / full history of our > conversation. Is it possible to set this somewhere or I will need to > make feature request? > > When replying to a single message, why would you expect other messages > from that thread to be included? It's up to both you and the recipients > which parts of previous older messages are quoted in a newer message. > If you need to forward older messages in a thread, use "Forward". > > For rendering all messages in a thread one after another (without any > "replying") see https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/evolution/-/issues/401 > > Cheers, > andre > -- > Andre Klapper | ak...@gmx.net > https://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/ > > > ___ > evolution-list mailing list > evolution-list@gnome.org > To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list > > ___ > evolution-list mailing list > evolution-list@gnome.org > To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Full history in reply
On Wed, 2020-06-10 at 11:21 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: > As far as I know there is no way to turn off this behaviour in the > user interface, but I've never really looked very hard. Hi, that's correct, there is nothing in the Preferences of Evolution to change the behaviour. There's a GSettings (hidden) option though: $ gsettings set org.gnome.evolution.mail composer-reply-keep-signature true which can be used. Bye, Milan ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Full history in reply
> when I reply to email, in the text of email history is just last > email from sender, but not the whole thread / full history of our > conversation. Is it possible to set this somewhere or I will need to > make feature request? > I think you may be confusing people with your terminology. When you say 'thread' the usual interpretation of that is every single message related to the message you are replying to - not the contents of the one email, but every single relate email message. This is not something that any mail program does and I hope is never ever implemented. If you mean the whole contents of the single email and all the quoted bits and the long list of irrelevant messages that no one can be bothered to trim, then yes, Evolution does quote all those as well by default. What you are probably seeing is the *proper* use of signature separators. Evolution, like most other properly behaving MUAs, does not quote anything below the signature separator: why do you *need* to quote someone else's signature in your reply? The signature separator is '-- ' on a line of its own. However if some program decides to put the signature, with signature separator, above the rest of the in-line quoted material, then Evolution will not include the quoted material. As far as I know there is no way to turn off this behaviour in the user interface, but I've never really looked very hard. P. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Full history in reply
On Wed, 2020-06-10 at 06:41 +, jiri.one via evolution-list wrote: > Hi, > > when I reply to email, in the text of email history is just last email from > sender, but not the whole thread / full history of our conversation. Is it > possible to set this somewhere or I will need to make feature request? There is no email client I am aware of that supports this. Too many people are in the habit of quoting the entire message when they reply, and if everyone does this then the result is a complete trace of the conversation, but that is a consequence of a) Microsoft's brain-dead decision to promote top-posting in Outlook, contrary to all previous practice, which was then slavishly followed by other software including Gmail, and b) users being either too lazy or too incompetent to trim the material they quote. This practice is not welcome on mailing lists, which already have the entire thread archived anyway, so we try to encourage people not to top-post and to trim their quotes to the relevant part of the message (very easy to do in Evolution). poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Full history in reply
On Wed, 2020-06-10 at 06:41 +, jiri.one via evolution-list wrote: > when I reply to email, in the text of email history is just last > email from sender, but not the whole thread / full history of our > conversation. Is it possible to set this somewhere or I will need to > make feature request? When replying to a single message, why would you expect other messages from that thread to be included? It's up to both you and the recipients which parts of previous older messages are quoted in a newer message. If you need to forward older messages in a thread, use "Forward". For rendering all messages in a thread one after another (without any "replying") see https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/evolution/-/issues/401 Cheers, andre -- Andre Klapper | ak...@gmx.net https://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/ ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
[Evolution] Full history in reply
Hi, when I reply to email, in the text of email history is just last email from sender, but not the whole thread / full history of our conversation. Is it possible to set this somewhere or I will need to make feature request? Thanks for your answer. Jiri Evolution 3.36.3 (Arch Linux)___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
