Re: [Evolution] Would this have side effects ?

[Ángel]

On 2021-02-05 at 17:10 -0600, Anonymous Japhering wrote:
> Mgmt is mandating that I interface with the corporate CRM software,
> which if you are not using a browser  for
> email is a BCC to a specific email address.
> 
> That means you either have to  remember to add the BCC ( and remember
> how you saved it) , or set it in the 
> composer options for every email.   Neither option by itself is very
> appealing as it means you either miss a 
> bunch  of outbound emails or you cram a lot of CRAP into the CRM.


I suspect their system is broken, but the management that came up with
that solution is probably earning many times my salary.

As I understand it, your CRM shall contain a copy of all messages sent
*to* the clients, and so you are being asked to BCC an internal CRM
address (e.g. c...@example.com).

If you use a separate account to with the clients (e.g. 
sa...@example.com), then it's trivial to configure it to BCC a certain
mailbox (option 'Always blind carbon-copy to'). This is the classic
solution, where many people work from a common mailbox.

However, in the system on your company, you are apparently using your
'normal' account both for interacting with clients and for other
interactions that shouldn't go through the CRM (e.g. sharing kitten
videos as attachments with your coworkers)

This has the obvious drawback that your CRM will get the messages you
send but not the ones you receive.

You could use the same approach for this, by configuring two email
accounts (only the sending part matters, you don't need to -and
probably shouldn't- configure the inbox twice), one with the bcc mail
and one without.

However, this still requires you to choose the right sending account on
the From field (and it will probably pick automatically the wrong
account on 50% of replies, since both would have the same address
configured).
A similar approach would be to configure it to always bcc and manually
remove it when unneeded (less typing, but needed on 80% of your
emails).

In order to automatically bcc c...@example.com on certain messages only
(e.g. only those not to @example.com), the approach I would follow is
to configure the account to send with sendmail, but with the option
'Use custom binary, instead of sendmail'.
Then you point it to a script which evaluates the recipients (which is
quite easy, as they are all individual parameters) and, depending
whether all recipients match your whitelist or not, exec
 sendmail "$@"
or
 sendmail "$@" c...@example.com


Best regards



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Re: [Evolution] Would this have side effects ?

[Milan Crha via evolution-list]

On Fri, 2021-02-05 at 17:10 -0600, Anonymous Japhering via evolution-
list wrote:
> Since I'm using IMAP, would it create any, heretofore unseen side
> effects to create 2 accounts in Evolution pointing
> to the same mail server.   One account would have the BCC (
> obviously, for using with clients) and the other one 
> would not and be used to handle the other 80% of my email.

Hi,
IMAP doesn't send messages, it receives them. To send a message you
need sendmail or SMTP. You can create two accounts with the same SMTP
server settings, one with "None" for the receiving part - it's called
send-only account. These can be used as the From in the composer.

I do not know how you'd use the two IMAP+SMTP accounts, reading privat
mail in the account for the private correspondence and the work mails
in the work account? That could work too, but you'll have stored the
IMAP messages twice on the disk.
Bye,
Milan

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Re: [Evolution] Would this have side effects ?

[Adam Tauno Williams]

On Sat, 2021-02-06 at 20:50 +0100, Volker Wysk wrote:
> Anonymous Japhering said he wanted to point two evolution accounts to
> the same mail server. So I thought the situation was similar. 

He'd have to be really fast to use both accounts at the same time. :) 
Assuming Notify is working.  This was a more annoying behavior back in
the days before 'push' notification.

These days I often have the same IMAP account open in Outlook in a VM,
and on my desktop in Evolution.  As I delete, read, reply-to messages
in Outlook I see them change in Evolution pretty quickly.  [not so much
the other way around, I don't think Outlook's IMAP Notify works, or
maybe it doesn't support it at all?]


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Re: [Evolution] Would this have side effects ?

[Adam Tauno Williams]

On Sat, 2021-02-06 at 11:03 -0700, Zan Lynx wrote:
> ...
> > came first and deleted the message from the server. Then the second
> > one got an error, because it tried to retrieve a message that was
> > no longer there. In evolution (when being the second one), I got an
> > error message
> > "Cannot get message...".
> One of the clients deleted (and expunged I assume) the message?
> This "problem" falls into the set of "problems" that are user error.
> OBVIOUSLY, if an email message is deleted then it is gone. The
> question then would be why one of your clients is configured to do
> that?

Agree, that problem is only going to regularly beset a configuration
that doesn't make sense.

A mail store, like any concurrently accessibly database, is going to
"suffer" from last-writer-wins, and such behavior falls under the same
concept.

Deleted is deleted; nothing is at fault.

> Or use a local Maildir. Although I remember a few bugs with
> Evolution and simultaneous Maildir access, it has been a long time
> and I assume they were fixed. 

I suppose more that they are unfixable;  if someone wants sane
concurrent access -> use a server, in this case IMAP.  Modern IMAP
servers are pretty darn robust [Dovecot, Cyrus, etc...]  An error when
unable to retrieve a message that was in the most recent /LIST is
reasonable - that's a real problem.

-- 
Adam Tauno Williams  GPG D95ED383

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Re: [Evolution] Would this have side effects ?

[Volker Wysk]

Am Samstag, den 06.02.2021, 11:03 -0700 schrieb Zan Lynx:
> On 2/6/21 9:06 AM, Volker Wysk wrote:
> > I've had the situation that the IMAP server didn't "manage concurrent
> > connections to one account in a sane manner".
> > 
> > This is what happened. I had two clients listening to one IMAP server with
> > IMAP IDLE (evolution and getmail). It happened that both clients saw a new
> > mail and tried to download it (or part of it, like the header). One client
> > came first and deleted the message from the server. Then the second one got
> > an error, because it tried to retrieve a message that was no longer there.
> > In evolution (when being the second one), I got an error message "Cannot get
> > message...".
> 
> One of the clients deleted (and expunged I assume) the message?
> 
> This "problem" falls into the set of "problems" that are user error.
> 
> OBVIOUSLY, if an email message is deleted then it is gone. The question 
> then would be why one of your clients is configured to do that?

I guess I haven't made myself clear enough that I don't have this problem
any longer. 

I had created an account in evolution to access my upstream mail server,
because something in my system didn't work or had to be reinstalled. I don't
remember the details. I have a local Dovecot mail (IMAP) server and a
getmail process which fetches my mail from my upstream mail server and saves
it in the Dovecot server. That getmail/Dovecot wasn't operational and I used
that Evolution account to access my mail.

When my system worked again, I had the described situation. I had my getmail
running and the evolution account was also still active. Disabling (or
deleting) that evolution account made the problem go away.

Anonymous Japhering said he wanted to point two evolution accounts to the
same mail server. So I thought the situation was similar. 

> I don't see what kind of "sane manner" you could expect here. It is 
> exactly like a shared filesystem on a network server. If one client 
> deletes a file, and then a second client tries to open that file, the 
> file isn't there! It was deleted!

The question is, whether it is an error when the file (or message) isn't
there any longer. In the IMAP case, it may be an error when a message ID
doesn't exist any longer. But it may also be harmless. The client can't tell
the difference.

Perhaps, the IMAP protocol could discriminate between invalid and expired
message IDs... But that's speculation.

> If you are using getmail to retrieve your email and then delete it, then 
> do not point any other clients at that IMAP server. 

That's my point.

> Use a local IMAP 
> server and have getmail deliver to that local server. Then point 
> Evolution at the local server.

That's exactly what I'm doing.

> Or use a local Maildir. Although I remember a few bugs with Evolution 
> and simultaneous Maildir access, it has been a long time and I assume 
> they were fixed. Because of course Evolution wants to play well with 
> others. Right?
> 
> Or I see, checking the documentation for getmail, that there's a 
> "delete_after" option that will only delete messages after leaving them 
> on the server for a while.

Cheers,
Volker


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Re: [Evolution] Would this have side effects ?

[Zan Lynx]

On 2/6/21 9:06 AM, Volker Wysk wrote:

I've had the situation that the IMAP server didn't "manage concurrent
connections to one account in a sane manner".

This is what happened. I had two clients listening to one IMAP server with
IMAP IDLE (evolution and getmail). It happened that both clients saw a new
mail and tried to download it (or part of it, like the header). One client
came first and deleted the message from the server. Then the second one got
an error, because it tried to retrieve a message that was no longer there.
In evolution (when being the second one), I got an error message "Cannot get
message...".


One of the clients deleted (and expunged I assume) the message?

This "problem" falls into the set of "problems" that are user error.

OBVIOUSLY, if an email message is deleted then it is gone. The question 
then would be why one of your clients is configured to do that?


I don't see what kind of "sane manner" you could expect here. It is 
exactly like a shared filesystem on a network server. If one client 
deletes a file, and then a second client tries to open that file, the 
file isn't there! It was deleted!


If you are using getmail to retrieve your email and then delete it, then 
do not point any other clients at that IMAP server. Use a local IMAP 
server and have getmail deliver to that local server. Then point 
Evolution at the local server.


Or use a local Maildir. Although I remember a few bugs with Evolution 
and simultaneous Maildir access, it has been a long time and I assume 
they were fixed. Because of course Evolution wants to play well with 
others. Right?


Or I see, checking the documentation for getmail, that there's a 
"delete_after" option that will only delete messages after leaving them 
on the server for a while.


--
Knowledge is Power -- Power Corrupts
Study Hard -- Be Evil
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Re: [Evolution] Would this have side effects ?

[Volker Wysk]

Am Samstag, den 06.02.2021, 10:20 -0500 schrieb Adam Tauno Williams:
> On Fri, 2021-02-05 at 17:10 -0600, Anonymous Japhering via evolution-
> list wrote:
> > Since I'm using IMAP, would it create any, heretofore unseen side
> > effects to create 2 accounts in Evolution pointing
> > to the same mail server.
> 
> As long as the IMAP server manages concurrent connections to one
> account in a sane manner this will work just fine; within Evolution the
> accounts are isolated.

I've had the situation that the IMAP server didn't "manage concurrent
connections to one account in a sane manner". 

This is what happened. I had two clients listening to one IMAP server with
IMAP IDLE (evolution and getmail). It happened that both clients saw a new
mail and tried to download it (or part of it, like the header). One client
came first and deleted the message from the server. Then the second one got
an error, because it tried to retrieve a message that was no longer there.
In evolution (when being the second one), I got an error message "Cannot get
message...".

I believe it lies in the IMAP protocol that it goes like this. The server
isn't to blame.

Bye,
Volker


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Re: [Evolution] Would this have side effects ?

[Adam Tauno Williams]

On Fri, 2021-02-05 at 17:10 -0600, Anonymous Japhering via evolution-
list wrote:
> Since I'm using IMAP, would it create any, heretofore unseen side
> effects to create 2 accounts in Evolution pointing
> to the same mail server.

As long as the IMAP server manages concurrent connections to one
account in a sane manner this will work just fine; within Evolution the
accounts are isolated.

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[Evolution] Would this have side effects ?

[Anonymous Japhering via evolution-list]

Evolution:  3.38.4 (flatpak gita8629ac)

Mgmt is mandating that I interface with the corporate CRM software, which if you
are not using a browser  for
email is a BCC to a specific email address.

That means you either have to  remember to add the BCC ( and remember how you
saved it) , or set it in the 
composer options for every email.   Neither option by itself is very appealing
as it means you either miss a 
bunch  of outbound emails or you cram a lot of CRAP into the CRM.

Since I'm using IMAP, would it create any, heretofore unseen side effects to
create 2 accounts in Evolution pointing
to the same mail server.   One account would have the BCC ( obviously, for using
with clients) and the other one 
would not and be used to handle the other 80% of my email.

Thoughts, problems, or other gotchas?

Mike
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