Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Experience of a Conscious Self
--- Irmeli Mattsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What is different from Bernadette's experience is the strong sence of I present. An I not as an image of oneself, rather an organizing I that observes and works with many kinds of energies. It could actually be helpful to hear how people who have theseNo I states like Peter and Akasha relate their reality to mine as I have described it above. Both Susanne's and Bernadette's experiences of no I are exactly the same as mine (that sounds funny, doesn't it?). My only quibble with them is that Susanne said that her experience could not be accounted for in MMY's teaching. I strongly disagree with that. MMY's teachings articulate the no-self experience as CC although it is impossible to really understand what MMY is talking about until the experience is had. I really enjoyed reading Bernadette's book many years ago. But what I got stuck on and lost interest in was her attempt to define her experience in terms of Christian dogma. I think the writings of christian saints would have served her better. As far as relating experiences. The relative experiences both gross and subtle will always vary from person to person and, for me, don't hold much interest. I'm more interested in the ontological shifts in selfhood as consciousness awakens to itself more and more. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Experience of a Conscious Self
--- Irmeli Mattsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter seems to be talking about something else. He has explained waking state and enlightenment to be two different things I have earlier asked him how he on daily basis manages to alternate between waking state and enlightenment? But I have got no answer. Also many times earlier when I have commented on his no I posts he has not bothered to respond to me. There two reasons why I tend not to take these discussions too far with you. We are coming from two very different conceptual systems. I try to stick to MMY's model of the 7 states. I'm not sure what conceptual model you are coming from. You also become insulting in your responses to me. As soon as this happens I stop responding. I find your posts interesting, but I'm not going to argue with you. __ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Experience of a Conscious Self
Anon, you're hired as my official spokesperson! ;-) --- anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: see comments below. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Irmeli Mattsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: meli Irmeli wrote in response to Peter: Clearly it is futile to discuss these issues with you. With my waking state reality I just cannot comprehend you. Such a shame - you each have so much to contribute. BTW, there may be a problem with the term waking state here. Irmeli appears to be using it to mean the state that the body/mind is in when it arises from sleep and goes about the activities of the day. Peter appears to be using it to mean the state that the body/mind is in before a certain level of realization in the field of universal consciousness. After this, the body/mind still arises from sleep and goes about the activities of the day. anonX I understand enlightenment to be a prevalent waking state awareness. It depends on how we define enlightenment, what attributes this enlightened awareness has. This has been my conceptual basic assumption. I have stated this in many posts earlier. Peter seems to be talking about something else. He has explained waking state and enlightenment to be two different things I have earlier asked him how he on daily basis manages to alternate between waking state and enlightenment? But I have got no answer. Also many times earlier when I have commented on his no I posts he has not bothered to respond to me. I have had very easy to relate to Ken Wilber's thinking and descriptions and conceptual way of expressing himself from the very first moment I encountered his writings a few years ago. I mean I can in his descriptions recognize my own subjective reality, but not in Peter's descriptions. I just read from the newest issue of What is Enlightenment from the Ken Wilber and Andrew Cohen Dialogue a very good description that pretty well describes my own conscious inner reality. Quote: Wilber: Moment to moment there is this ever-present is-ness, and yet as soon as you locate yourself in it, there is an `I'. Cohen: Yes. The minute you locate yourself, the whole world appears. Wilber: Exactly. As soon as there is an `I', there is an it or an object, and then there is a `we'; there is some resonance with some other subjectivity someplace. Wilber explains also a little bit further in the text: When you are in a causal, or nondual, open-eyes, ever-present, non-effort state, an I arises that is an authentic self. I hope this helps to clarify, what I have been trying to communicate. Irmeli Thank you Irmeli for your response. I have read a number of posts from you since you first joined FFL. However, I go through long periods of not reading FFL, so I am sure that I have missed many of your contributions. On the topic of waking state I think it is worthwhile to understand that Peter uses that as a kind of jargon, or shorthand for pre-enlightened state. I suggest that, when reading what he has to say, you make the substitution. Then you will not confuse your understanding of waking state (which is the more common usage) with his (which is Maharishi's usage). If you follow this suggestion, you will have a new interpretation of the conversations you have with him. For example, you wrote: He has explained waking state and enlightenment to be two different things I have earlier asked him how he on daily basis manages to alternate between waking state and enlightenment? His part of this would translate as: He has explained that the pre-enlightened state and enlightenment are two different things. Then you would see that your question which followed isn't actually addressing what he had to say. Once getting past the confusion of terminology, it starts to get interesting to see the similarities and differences in how each of you define enlightenment. Regarding the no I concept, if you have an interest to understand it better, there are some very articulate attempts to describe this experience, coming from people who had no predisposition to expect it, based on their own traditions. These have been mentioned before on FFL: Collision With the Infinite, by Suzanne Siegal The Experience of No-Self, by Bernadette Roberts In the latter, there a thorough attempt to define what is meant by self. Such a definition is often missing from discussions of no- self, no-ego etc. Other writings by Bernadette Roberts go into this more thoroughly, such as the book What is Self?. I mention this because you seem to have a curious mind, willing to entertain notions outside of your own. You may find
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Experience of a Conscious Self
--- off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] You also become insulting in your responses to me. As soon as this happens I stop responding. I find your posts interesting, but I'm not going to argue with you. Yeah, its really a bummer when the no-I gets insulted. So much no-anger arises. The no-ego feels so no-hurt. It can get a no-I really no-pissed. Bummer. Opps, I mean no bummer. Lol, the no-I in me is not amused. OffWorld Well, my no-I is going to kick somebody's no-I sorry ass, if I could just localize it someplace. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Experience of a Conscious Self
Soounds great. I suspect I'll be dead from a heart attack or in a looney bin from the rollercoaster ride before that happens to me. Never was good at rollercoasters. OffWorld Ironically enough, I did end up in a loony bin from the roller coaster ride (thanks mom). No jokeIt gets intense! But I am happy to say that years later and a couple of more rides under my belt have helped me understand enough and gather enough tools that it dont sound like a blathering idiot when going through it anymore lol (er, I think). At first it was very hard to maintain any cohesive thought in the physical worldbut I am hoping those days are behind me. So far so good (thank god). J ~Paula To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Experience of a Conscious Self
--- Irmeli Mattsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wonder what kind of a reality a person has, who claims to have no I. In that case posts would just appear from nowhere to FFL. No subject is writing them and no subject is aware of this writing process and no one is responsible of the content of the posts. That kind of enlightenment would mean no awareness. Regressing to the level of a stone. Awareness means there is an entity (subject) that is aware. If some entity is aware, that entity is a subject according to how I understand the concept subject. Irmeli You are confounding a subjective self with consciousness. This is the condition of avidya and the phenomenological reality of ignorance-there is a subjective, separate self. But in enlightenment it becomes quite clear that there is no subjective, separate self. There is no I of avidya. That goes away and there is nothing left...and that no-thing is consciousness. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Experience of a Conscious Self
On Oct 31, 2005, at 8:42 AM, authfriend wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Irmeli Mattsson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip If you see a flower, who is seeing the flower? That was basically my question. Your answer would probably be that in your case the Universal Self is seeing the flower, because you are enlightened. But I understand also the Universal Self to be a subject, "I", who sees the flower. My (purely intellectual) understanding is that in Unity consciousness, there is no distinction between the flower, the process of seeing the flower, and that which sees the flower. And also, even in glimpses of Unity it is said that other people appear as "Dakas and Dakinis"--divine beings--even before actualization of actual enlightenment in these people. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Experience of a Conscious Self
--- authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Irmeli Mattsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Irmeli Mattsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip If you see a flower, who is seeing the flower? That was basically my question. Your answer would probably be that in your case the Universal Self is seeing the flower, because you are enlightened. But I understand also the Universal Self to be a subject, I, who sees the flower. My (purely intellectual) understanding is that in Unity consciousness, there is no distinction between the flower, the process of seeing the flower, and that which sees the flower. The way you express Unity consciousness could be also understood this way: In unity consciousness the differentiation between the flower, the process of seeing the flower and that which sees the flower is not there and possible. What a mess. That is the reality of a new born baby. In a brahmin endowed with learning and humility, in a cow, in an elephant, in a dog and even in one who has lost his caste, the enlightened perceive the same. Bhagavad-Gita, V:18 MMY comments, in part: The mind of the realized man is fully infused with the state of Being--the oneness of life--and such a mind naturally has oneness of vision irrespective of what it sees. The apparent distinctions of relative existence fail to create division in its view. This does not mean that such a man fails to see a cow or is unable to distinguish it from a dog. Certainly he sees a cow as a cow and a dog as a dog, but the form of the cow and the form of the dog fail to blind him to the oneness of the Self, which is the same in both. Although he sees a cow and a dog, his Self is established in the Being of the cow and the Being of the dog, which is his own Being. The Lord stresses that the enlightened man, while beholding and acting in the whole of diversified creation, does not fall from his steadfast Unity of life, with which his mind is saturated and which remains indelibly infused into his vision. In other words, the enlightened person (presumably in Unity) sees both distinction and nondistinction, but the Unity of the person's state extends even to the distinction between distinction and nondistinction, i.e., distinction and nondistinction are not different. I would describe Unity consciousness like this: In Unity consciousness it is seen and felt that the one who sees, the process of seeing and the seen are not independent and separate processes or entities from each other. Nor is that which sees and feels that they are not independent and separate from the seeing and feeling thereof. Nor is that which sees and feels that it is not independent and separate from the seeing and feeling that they are not independent and separate... In other words, it's an infinite regress. But that's what Self-reference looks like under the influence of the mistake of the intellect, and why Unity consciousness cannot be accurately described in terms that make sense to the intellect. The more closely you analyze the words used in the description (any description), the more confusing and paradoxical they become. However, it can be useful to confront that confusion, because the more the intellect has to deal with its inadequacy to penetrate the mystery, the closer it is brought to the point where it is going to have to give up entirely (but also the more strenuously it fights giving up). Excellent post. The mind can't go where there is no mind. A conceptual mess is created if UC is understood from the phenomenological reality of waking state. Primarily it, enlightenment, is misunderstood as an experience that I have. Remember the book, Flatland ? I read it in a 10th grade physics class and it blew my mind because it helps, metaphorically, to understand epistemological limits that the mind is necessarily unaware of. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Experience of a Conscious Self
--- Irmeli Mattsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My opinion: A concept that you cannot define shouldn't be used at all untill you can define it. Of course, I agree. The problem comes in when the concepts one is attempting to define entail experiences outside of the waking state mind. If these experiences have not occured you're left with an empty concept. For example. MMY talks about pure consciousness as unbounded. For years my mind thought of unboundedness as spatially big. In enlightenment one would fill the cosmos. It's natural to think this because in our waking state experience boundaries cut space up into sections. Remove the boundaries and you have a really big space. I even had experiences of filling up the cosmos to varying degrees. But once the foundational shift occured from a self to a no-self, it became rather obvious what MMY was talking about when he says, unbounded, and it has nothing to do with space or time. Many of the enlightenment concepts that I thought I understood can only make true sense within their phenomenological domain/condition. In waking state they are empty and usually create confusion. __ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Experience of a Conscious Self
On Oct 31, 2005, at 1:08 PM, Peter wrote:MMY talks about pure consciousness as unbounded. For years my mind thought of unboundedness as spatially big. In enlightenment one would "fill the cosmos". It's natural to think this because in our waking state experience boundaries cut space up into sections. Remove the boundaries and you have a really big space. I even had experiences of filling up the cosmos to varying degrees. But once the foundational shift occured from a self to a no-self, it became rather obvious what MMY was talking about when he says, "unbounded", and it has nothing to do with space or time. Lamas will often propose the paradoxical proposition "not seeing is perfect seeing" as a dualistic way of getting people to jump into unboundedness. Paradoxical if it has not been experienced, but simply "unbounded" and unencumbered if you do. No big deal. :-) To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Experience of a Conscious Self
--- off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then it would appear that Ramana did not have the full experience, only a superficial one... Yeah, Ramana Maharishi wasn't fully realized like us ! __ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
