[FairfieldLife] Re: A Selection from FFL Greatest Hits: you may be more enlightened than you think..
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Dean Goodman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Judy continues: I wish he were around. Judy, I AM around - on this list and many others. I kinda figured you might be. whistling snip What I want to do is two things: 1. To shift your awareness itself, to direct your awareness back upon its Self, so that the simple, direct experience (if it can be called an experience) is an aha, an awakening! 2. To present an understanding that is an alternative to the ignorant understanding that we've all been immersed in through our culture/family/school/religion/etc. - to present an understanding that compliments/supports that aha experience. but I'd really like to ask him about being overshadowed by the relative, which is my sole basis for saying I'm not Self- realized. Judy, have I ever failed to come out to answer your questions? ;) Not the ones you've seen! If my experience is that I'm overshadowed, how would Michael interpret that in terms of what he says in this piece? What I need here is a more detailed understanding of what you mean by being overshadowed by the relative: OK, if I could interrupt for a second: What I'm trying to get at is that there are things that lead one to think one hasn't achieved Self-realization that don't involve flashy experiences or complicated concepts or improved behavior or noticing witnessing or not wanting to let go of one's seeker identity or witnessing sleep or clearer transcending or any of that stuff you listed. It's not a matter of thinking one knows what enlightenment will be like, but rather of knowing what it *isn't* going to be like--i.e., it isn't going to be like ignorance. Someone who is still in ignorance knows what ignorance is like. So as long as one is still having that experience--i.e., of ignorance--one isn't enlightened. My criterion for ignorance is being overshadowed by the relative. I *don't* know what being identified with the Self is like, so I don't make up a lot of concepts about it; except that it is *not* being overshadowed by the relative. You didn't use the term overshadowed in your post, which is why I brought it up. Jim quite correctly, I think, pointed out that you did mention it in other terms; you talked about strain in action, feeling that you have a choice of action and that you are responsible for implementing that choice, that you are the author of your actions. In enlightenment, you said, that strain is gone, and it's a dramatic shift. I'm pretty sure I'll recognize it when the strain goes away. For now, it's still here (although less than it once was). With that as preamble: a. What overshadows you? Everything, specific things...? Ultimately, everything. It's most apparent when I have to do something I don't want to do or not do something I do want to do. But there's also a sticky feeling about doing what I want to do or not doing what I don't want to do, in that I know there would be strain if I couldn't or had to. b. Who/what gets overshadowed? That question makes no sense to me whatsoever. It's like asking me the square root of chocolate. c. How do you know you are overshadowed? What are the symptoms? Discomfort, physical and/or mental and/or emotional; a feeling of resistance, of strain. d. Who notices that you are sometimes overshadowed and sometimes not? Well, as noted, I would say I'm *always* overshadowed, except for occasional brief experiences of witnessing. Which is how I know what being overshadowed is, because during those experiences, it's gone. Actually I had a sense of it before I ever started TM or had any witnessing--just a general sense of being existentially oppressed. St. Paul has a wonderfully convoluted passage about this, about not being able to do what he knows he should do; I wonder if you're familiar with it? If not I'll try to find it. As to who notices, though, again that makes no sense to me. The same who notices to whom this formulation doesn't make any sense! Self-inquiry a la Ramana Maharshi is not my cup of tea. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- AIDS in India: A lurking bomb. Click and help stop AIDS now. http://us.click.yahoo.com/VpTY2A/lzNLAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: A Selection from FFL Greatest Hits: you may be more enlightened than you think..
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Dean Goodman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My take: when Self is ready to acknowledge Self, it will. Mahasutras are for Unity. CC takes care of itsSelf. Or, to put it differently: premature recognition of CC is detrimental to one's growth because EVERYONE already is in CC to some extent though they haven't noticed it yet. Pointing this out to them merely confuses, even if the confusion feels nice and liberating. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: A Selection from FFL Greatest Hits: you may be more enlightened than you think..
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was looking at archived files and found this one pretty quickly. I decided to post it again for everyone's enjoyment. It can be found in the Files/FFLIndex.html section, or as message 4002, from Michael Dean Goodman. I have copied a [lengthy] excerpt from that message. Normally I wouldn't copy something so long, but this writing is extraordinary in its simplicity and clarity: Thanks, Jim. Michael's explanations are indeed extraordinary. I wish he were around. This piece *almost* convinces me that I'm Self-realized, but I'd really like to ask him about being overshadowed by the relative, which is my sole basis for saying I'm not Self-realized. If my experience is that I'm overshadowed, how would Michael interpret that in terms of what he says in this piece? MMY speaks of mature vs [one assumes] immature Cosmic Consciousness.My take: Just because you might be walking on a plateau doesn't mean that there aren't valleys and peaks there. They aren't as big a deal to climb as the original ascent was, but you don't remember how tough that climb was, only that you were climbing... Having said all that, why worry about it anyway? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: A Selection from FFL Greatest Hits: you may be more enlightened than you think..
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was looking at archived files and found this one pretty quickly. I decided to post it again for everyone's enjoyment. It can be found in the Files/FFLIndex.html section, or as message 4002, from Michael Dean Goodman. I have copied a [lengthy] excerpt from that message. Normally I wouldn't copy something so long, but this writing is extraordinary in its simplicity and clarity: Thanks, Jim. Michael's explanations are indeed extraordinary. I wish he were around. This piece *almost* convinces me that I'm Self-realized, but I'd really like to ask him about being overshadowed by the relative, which is my sole basis for saying I'm not Self-realized. If my experience is that I'm overshadowed, how would Michael interpret that in terms of what he says in this piece? You may be associating that peculiar unintegrated 'witnessing' phenomenon with Self realization. As an ardent seeker, when I first started TM and did a few residence courses, I remember this experience I would have of being clearly distant from what I was doing; witnessing activity. I felt so free, and it was such a relief to be briefly released from the strain of seeking that the witnessing experience made a deep impression on me as synonomous with self Realization. However, I see now that the experience I had previously of witnessing was not fully integrated; that my typical daily life experience of Self realization is quite normal- nothing remarkable in and of itself. And yet, if I choose to take a minute and sense where my Self is, within myself, it is easily found. Oddly, as that which is attributeless bliss... And I am sure that you have the same experience. So, when Self realized, we don't feel any differently, it is just that life takes on an easier, more seamless quality. As Michael says in his piece, to paraphrase, we perform spontaneous right action (vs. strained right action). Hope this helps! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: A Selection from FFL Greatest Hits: you may be more enlightened than you think..
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was looking at archived files and found this one pretty quickly. I decided to post it again for everyone's enjoyment. It can be found in the Files/FFLIndex.html section, or as message 4002, from Michael Dean Goodman. I have copied a [lengthy] excerpt from that message. Normally I wouldn't copy something so long, but this writing is extraordinary in its simplicity and clarity: Thanks, Jim. Michael's explanations are indeed extraordinary. I wish he were around. This piece *almost* convinces me that I'm Self-realized, but I'd really like to ask him about being overshadowed by the relative, which is my sole basis for saying I'm not Self-realized. If my experience is that I'm overshadowed, how would Michael interpret that in terms of what he says in this piece? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Fair play? Video games influencing politics. Click and talk back! http://us.click.yahoo.com/u8TY5A/tzNLAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: A Selection from FFL Greatest Hits: you may be more enlightened than you think..
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Thanks, Jim. Michael's explanations are indeed extraordinary. I wish he were around. This piece *almost* convinces me that I'm Self-realized, but I'd really like to ask him about being overshadowed by the relative, which is my sole basis for saying I'm not Self-realized. If my experience is that I'm overshadowed, how would Michael interpret that in terms of what he says in this piece? You may be associating that peculiar unintegrated 'witnessing' phenomenon with Self realization. As an ardent seeker, when I first started TM and did a few residence courses, I remember this experience I would have of being clearly distant from what I was doing; witnessing activity. I felt so free, and it was such a relief to be briefly released from the strain of seeking that the witnessing experience made a deep impression on me as synonomous with self Realization. Yes, I've had that experience... However, I see now that the experience I had previously of witnessing was not fully integrated; that my typical daily life experience of Self realization is quite normal- nothing remarkable in and of itself. And yet, if I choose to take a minute and sense where my Self is, within myself, it is easily found. Oddly, as that which is attributeless bliss... ...but not this one. (And in any case, Michael says what I've always understood, that the Self isn't something that can be found; it can't be an object of perception.) And I am sure that you have the same experience. Yes and no, as above. I understand what you're saying about the contrast of beginner witnessing being characterized by a sense of relief because it's novel. But I have trouble understanding how I could be in an integrated state of Self-realization and still be experiencing all the stuff the beginning witnessing relieved me *of*, if you see what I'm getting at. In other words: I get that one wouldn't continue to feel a sense of relief once Self-realization has become customary. But one would *not*, I should think, continue to feel bound. So, when Self realized, we don't feel any differently, it is just that life takes on an easier, more seamless quality. As Michael says in his piece, to paraphrase, we perform spontaneous right action (vs. strained right action). Still feels strained to me. That's part of what I mean by being overshadowed. There's definitely been progress, but it still seems like there's quite a way to go. Hope this helps! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: A Selection from FFL Greatest Hits: you may be more enlightened than you think..
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip If my experience is that I'm overshadowed, how would Michael interpret that in terms of what he says in this piece? MMY speaks of mature vs [one assumes] immature Cosmic Consciousness.My take: Just because you might be walking on a plateau doesn't mean that there aren't valleys and peaks there. They aren't as big a deal to climb as the original ascent was, but you don't remember how tough that climb was, only that you were climbing... Having said all that, why worry about it anyway? I don't, unless somebody insists I'm Self-realized but just don't want to acknowledge it. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: A Selection from FFL Greatest Hits: you may be more enlightened than you think..
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Thanks, Jim. Michael's explanations are indeed extraordinary. I wish he were around. This piece *almost* convinces me that I'm Self-realized, but I'd really like to ask him about being overshadowed by the relative, which is my sole basis for saying I'm not Self-realized. If my experience is that I'm overshadowed, how would Michael interpret that in terms of what he says in this piece? You may be associating that peculiar unintegrated 'witnessing' phenomenon with Self realization. As an ardent seeker, when I first started TM and did a few residence courses, I remember this experience I would have of being clearly distant from what I was doing; witnessing activity. I felt so free, and it was such a relief to be briefly released from the strain of seeking that the witnessing experience made a deep impression on me as synonomous with self Realization. Yes, I've had that experience... However, I see now that the experience I had previously of witnessing was not fully integrated; that my typical daily life experience of Self realization is quite normal- nothing remarkable in and of itself. And yet, if I choose to take a minute and sense where my Self is, within myself, it is easily found. Oddly, as that which is attributeless bliss... ...but not this one. Put another way, it is that sense that there is still someting there when we are sitting quietly, yet not thinking. To call it 'attributeless bliss' perhaps is distracting. it is just that sense of silence without thoughts that we sometimes experience when just sitting quietly, not thinking, not meditating. Does this sound like something you have experienced? (And in any case, Michael says what I've always understood, that the Self isn't something that can be found; it can't be an object of perception.) And I am sure that you have the same experience. Yes and no, as above. I understand what you're saying about the contrast of beginner witnessing being characterized by a sense of relief because it's novel. But I have trouble understanding how I could be in an integrated state of Self-realization and still be experiencing all the stuff the beginning witnessing relieved me *of*, if you see what I'm getting at. In other words: I get that one wouldn't continue to feel a sense of relief once Self-realization has become customary. But one would *not*, I should think, continue to feel bound. So, when Self realized, we don't feel any differently, it is just that life takes on an easier, more seamless quality. As Michael says in his piece, to paraphrase, we perform spontaneous right action (vs. strained right action). Still feels strained to me. That's part of what I mean by being overshadowed. There's definitely been progress, but it still seems like there's quite a way to go. OK. I think I understand. In order for the strain to not be there, there must be an acceptance of all...which is impossible to grasp intellectually. At least for me it always was, because I equated acceptance of all, with *liking* all, which I suspect is never the case... So, once we can accept everything, the strain will begin to abate. Hope this helps! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: A Selection from FFL Greatest Hits: you may be more enlightened than you think..
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] snip Put another way, it is that sense that there is still someting there when we are sitting quietly, yet not thinking. To call it 'attributeless bliss' perhaps is distracting. it is just that sense of silence without thoughts that we sometimes experience when just sitting quietly, not thinking, not meditating. Does this sound like something you have experienced? Yes, but I wouldn't swear it was the Self, because, as I went on to say: (And in any case, Michael says what I've always understood, that the Self isn't something that can be found; it can't be an object of perception.) snip Still feels strained to me. That's part of what I mean by being overshadowed. There's definitely been progress, but it still seems like there's quite a way to go. OK. I think I understand. In order for the strain to not be there, there must be an acceptance of all...which is impossible to grasp intellectually. At least for me it always was, because I equated acceptance of all, with *liking* all, which I suspect is never the case... I don't think I make that equation. It's more like you said, I equate acceptance with lack of resistance. But as you also say, acceptance isn't intellectual; it isn't something you can *do* intentionally. It's something that *happens* to you. And it hasn't happened to me yet (at least not all the way). So I have to think that what Michael calls the shift of perspective (bad word, because perspective is of the intellect, but Michael doesn't mean that) from identifying with the relative to identifying with the Self hasn't yet taken place for me. In other words, if Self-realization means not being overshadowed, and being overshadowed equals resistance/ lack of acceptance, then I'm not Self-realized. So it seems to me that I'm judging my state of consciousness by exactly the criterion Michael suggests-- not by flashy experiences or noticing witnessing or behaving better, but: In enlightenment our actions are spontaneously right. Before enlightenment our actions are strained, but still right. All that happens is that the sense of strain disappears. But that's a dramatic shift. I still have a sense of strain. Or to put it another way: It's not that I have expectations of what enlightenment is like; it's that I expect it *not* to be like ignorance. (Yes, yes, I know, nirvana = samsara and all that. But I don't think that's a useful maxim pre-nirvana.) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: A Selection from FFL Greatest Hits: you may be more enlightened than you think..
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] snip Put another way, it is that sense that there is still someting there when we are sitting quietly, yet not thinking. To call it 'attributeless bliss' perhaps is distracting. it is just that sense of silence without thoughts that we sometimes experience when just sitting quietly, not thinking, not meditating. Does this sound like something you have experienced? Yes, but I wouldn't swear it was the Self, because, as I went on to say: (And in any case, Michael says what I've always understood, that the Self isn't something that can be found; it can't be an object of perception.) snip Still feels strained to me. That's part of what I mean by being overshadowed. There's definitely been progress, but it still seems like there's quite a way to go. OK. I think I understand. In order for the strain to not be there, there must be an acceptance of all...which is impossible to grasp intellectually. At least for me it always was, because I equated acceptance of all, with *liking* all, which I suspect is never the case... I don't think I make that equation. It's more like you said, I equate acceptance with lack of resistance. But as you also say, acceptance isn't intellectual; it isn't something you can *do* intentionally. It's something that *happens* to you. And it hasn't happened to me yet (at least not all the way). So I have to think that what Michael calls the shift of perspective (bad word, because perspective is of the intellect, but Michael doesn't mean that) from identifying with the relative to identifying with the Self hasn't yet taken place for me. In other words, if Self-realization means not being overshadowed, and being overshadowed equals resistance/ lack of acceptance, then I'm not Self-realized. So it seems to me that I'm judging my state of consciousness by exactly the criterion Michael suggests-- not by flashy experiences or noticing witnessing or behaving better, but: In enlightenment our actions are spontaneously right. Before enlightenment our actions are strained, but still right. All that happens is that the sense of strain disappears. But that's a dramatic shift. I still have a sense of strain. Or to put it another way: It's not that I have expectations of what enlightenment is like; it's that I expect it *not* to be like ignorance. (Yes, yes, I know, nirvana = samsara and all that. But I don't think that's a useful maxim pre-nirvana.) Well, thank you for this exchange. Yep, you are right, it is that strain which appears to be the chief indicator of where we are vis a vis realization. The good news is, as Michael says, that it is not the distance we may imagine it is, in order to get from here to there. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: A Selection from FFL Greatest Hits: you may be more enlightened than you think..
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip So it seems to me that I'm judging my state of consciousness by exactly the criterion Michael suggests-- not by flashy experiences or noticing witnessing or behaving better, but: In enlightenment our actions are spontaneously right. Before enlightenment our actions are strained, but still right. All that happens is that the sense of strain disappears. But that's a dramatic shift. I still have a sense of strain. Or to put it another way: It's not that I have expectations of what enlightenment is like; it's that I expect it *not* to be like ignorance. (Yes, yes, I know, nirvana = samsara and all that. But I don't think that's a useful maxim pre-nirvana.) Well, thank you for this exchange. Yep, you are right, it is that strain which appears to be the chief indicator of where we are vis a vis realization. The good news is, as Michael says, that it is not the distance we may imagine it is, in order to get from here to there. Thanks to you too. I'm honestly not thinking of it as a huge distance. I just would like to be able to say I'm not enlightened yet and not have somebody contradict me. ;-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: A Selection from FFL Greatest Hits: you may be more enlightened than you think..
jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was looking at archived files and found this one pretty quickly. I decided to post it again for everyone's enjoyment. It can be found in the Files/FFLIndex.html section, or as message 4002, from Michael Dean Goodman. I have copied a [lengthy] excerpt from that message. Normally I wouldn't copy something so long, but this writing is extraordinary in its simplicity and clarity: authfriend/Judy Stein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks, Jim. Michael's explanations are indeed extraordinary. Dear Jim and Judy, Thank you - you are both very gracious in your appreciation. It's an honor to be of service. When someone expresses a sincere need, and I find myself motivated to write this kind of essay, I'm often surprised at what emerges out of the silence, and I'm often clarified and strengthened in my own understanding by the process. Even years later, with this resurrected post, it still has that effect on me. Judy continues: I wish he were around. Judy, I AM around - on this list and many others. But mostly I just silently observe. I only post when I feel that I have something val- uable to say - something that will be of service in the realm of un- derstanding or experience, something that will help people remember who they are. Those opportunities don't seem to arise here so much anymore. :( [In case my earlier posts may be of some value to either of you, there is an index of my more useful ones in message #43379 in the archives.] This piece *almost* convinces me that I'm Self-realized, Now Judy, you can predict what I'm going to say! I'm NOT trying to convince you. I AM encouraging you to notice that shift of perspective where the Reality becomes Self-evident. If I convinced you, I would just shift your beliefs, the attitude or filters of your intellect (and a fine intellect it is!). That wouldn't catalyze awakening. What I want to do is two things: 1. To shift your awareness itself, to direct your awareness back upon its Self, so that the simple, direct experience (if it can be called an experience) is an aha, an awakening! 2. To present an understanding that is an alternative to the ignorant understanding that we've all been immersed in through our culture/family/school/religion/etc. - to present an understanding that compliments/supports that aha experience. but I'd really like to ask him about being overshadowed by the relative, which is my sole basis for saying I'm not Self-realized. Judy, have I ever failed to come out to answer your questions? ;) If my experience is that I'm overshadowed, how would Michael interpret that in terms of what he says in this piece? What I need here is a more detailed understanding of what you mean by being overshadowed by the relative: a. What overshadows you? Everything, specific things...? b. Who/what gets overshadowed? c. How do you know you are overshadowed? What are the symptoms? d. Who notices that you are sometimes overshadowed and sometimes not? If you would look into these questions, and answer them based on your simple, direct experience (not theoretical understanding), then I predict I could be of service to you. Namaste, Michael PARA - THE CENTER FOR REALIZATION Michael Dean Goodman Ph.D., D.D., Director Boca Raton (Palm Beach County) FL * 641-919-3700 * [EMAIL PROTECTED] Clients and programs throughout the United States, Europe, and India Counseling * Workshops * Presentations * Spiritual Guidance * Satsang Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: A Selection from FFL Greatest Hits: you may be more enlightened than you think..
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Dean Goodman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was looking at archived files and found this one pretty quickly. I decided to post it again for everyone's enjoyment. It can be found in the Files/FFLIndex.html section, or as message 4002, from Michael Dean Goodman. I have copied a [lengthy] excerpt from that message. Normally I wouldn't copy something so long, but this writing is extraordinary in its simplicity and clarity: authfriend/Judy Stein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks, Jim. Michael's explanations are indeed extraordinary. Dear Jim and Judy, Thank you - you are both very gracious in your appreciation. It's an honor to be of service. When someone expresses a sincere need, and I find myself motivated to write this kind of essay, I'm often surprised at what emerges out of the silence, and I'm often clarified and strengthened in my own understanding by the process. Even years later, with this resurrected post, it still has that effect on me. Dear Michael, It is always a pleasure to read a personal account of real life, life in freedom, infinite discovery and joy! Thank you again for making this wonderful resource of your writing available. All the Best, Jim Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: A Selection from FFL Greatest Hits: you may be more enlightened than you think..
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip So it seems to me that I'm judging my state of consciousness by exactly the criterion Michael suggests-- not by flashy experiences or noticing witnessing or behaving better, but: In enlightenment our actions are spontaneously right. Before enlightenment our actions are strained, but still right. All that happens is that the sense of strain disappears. But that's a dramatic shift. I still have a sense of strain. Or to put it another way: It's not that I have expectations of what enlightenment is like; it's that I expect it *not* to be like ignorance. (Yes, yes, I know, nirvana = samsara and all that. But I don't think that's a useful maxim pre-nirvana.) Well, thank you for this exchange. Yep, you are right, it is that strain which appears to be the chief indicator of where we are vis a vis realization. The good news is, as Michael says, that it is not the distance we may imagine it is, in order to get from here to there. Thanks to you too. I'm honestly not thinking of it as a huge distance. I just would like to be able to say I'm not enlightened yet and not have somebody contradict me. ;-) I get it. I too always have thought it was better to be honest with my experience than faking it, to myself or anybody else. Hang in there. Michael has provided you some excellent guidance. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
