RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: The key to overcoming cult thinking
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of doctordumb...@rocketmail.com Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 11:17 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: The key to overcoming cult thinking Agreed Rick - and, btw, speaking of cult trauma, I am still waiting for reimbursement from you, Wally, and Michael, on those TIME magazines that always reappeared in my mailbox at the Manor, well thumbed through...;-) I plead innocent. Jerry Jarvis once pilfered my TIME magazine from my mailbox in Arosa, Switzerland. Or maybe he just saw me reading it, borrowed it, and didn't return it. I remember having to go after it.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: The key to overcoming cult thinking
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of turquoiseb Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 11:14 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: The key to overcoming cult thinking --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife%40yahoogroups.com , Rick Archer wrote: I would suggest that it might also be important to be able to say I was part of a cult, but I actually benefitted from it in many ways, and while some might be wise to leave it or 'take what they need and leave the rest', others are benefitting from it even now, despite its cult-like aspects. I have no problem with this. My point is about the inability to say the C-word, or admit that this is what they were really part of. That, to me, indicates a subtle intention to remain under the delusion that they could never be deceived, and that they are too smart to be taken in by a cult. Anyone who believes that is still in one. If anyone can look at the robes and crowns, weight in gold, tallest buildings in the world, expensive tiny singing jars of rancid honey, and all the rest, and say it's not a cult, then I'd like to know what they would consider a cult. Do we have to have mass suicides before we can say we've crossed that line?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The key to overcoming cult thinking
Over these 9 months I've been on FFL I realize that what has always been the demarcation line for me, but I wasn't aware of it, is the use of physical violence or the threat of physical violence. For example, the final straw for me in ref to Catholic Church was learning about the Inquisition when I was a freshman at the Univ of Maryland and sat in on my boyfriend's World History class. Physical violence or the threat of it is where I draw the line in any relationship whether it be with an individual or with a group. That would include some individual or group forcing me to commit suicide. All else is an organization consisting of flawed individuals being a flawed and sometimes silly part of this flawed but beautiful world. From: Rick Archer r...@searchsummit.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 11:30 AM Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: The key to overcoming cult thinking From:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of turquoiseb Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 11:14 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: The key to overcoming cult thinking --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer wrote: I would suggest that it might also be important to be able to say I was part of a cult, but I actually benefitted from it in many ways, and while some might be wise to leave it or 'take what they need and leave the rest', others are benefitting from it even now, despite its cult-like aspects. I have no problem with this. My point is about the inability to say the C-word, or admit that this is what they were really part of. That, to me, indicates a subtle intention to remain under the delusion that they could never be deceived, and that they are too smart to be taken in by a cult. Anyone who believes that is still in one. If anyone can look at the robes and crowns, weight in gold, tallest buildings in the world, expensive tiny singing jars of rancid honey, and all the rest, and say it’s not a cult, then I’d like to know what they would consider a cult. Do we have to have mass suicides before we can say we’ve crossed that line?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The key to overcoming cult thinking
this is the kind of asinine thinking that has enabled users like Marshy to do as they damn well please From: doctordumb...@rocketmail.com doctordumb...@rocketmail.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 1:11 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: The key to overcoming cult thinking If anyone can look at the robes and crowns, weight in gold, tallest buildings in the world, expensive tiny singing jars of rancid honey, and all the rest, and say it's not a cult, then I'd like to know what they would consider a cult. If anyone can look at the ridiculous (and ridiculously expensive) suits, obscene salaries and stock options, tallest buildings in the world, pricey, marginally useful products designed for obsolescence, private jets and limousines for the leaders, massive layoffs, and all the rest, and say it's not a corporation, then I'd like to know what they would consider a corporation. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer wrote: From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of turquoiseb Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 11:14 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: The key to overcoming cult thinking --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com , Rick Archer wrote: I would suggest that it might also be important to be able to say I was part of a cult, but I actually benefitted from it in many ways, and while some might be wise to leave it or 'take what they need and leave the rest', others are benefitting from it even now, despite its cult-like aspects. I have no problem with this. My point is about the inability to say the C-word, or admit that this is what they were really part of. That, to me, indicates a subtle intention to remain under the delusion that they could never be deceived, and that they are too smart to be taken in by a cult. Anyone who believes that is still in one. If anyone can look at the robes and crowns, weight in gold, tallest buildings in the world, expensive tiny singing jars of rancid honey, and all the rest, and say it's not a cult, then I'd like to know what they would consider a cult. Do we have to have mass suicides before we can say we've crossed that line?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The key to overcoming cult thinking
I don't agree with the items you list. For example, I don't consider the pandits slaves. And I'm not aware of any students who were, as you say, forced to live a lifestyle counter to their wishes. I think many anti TMers are unwilling to face the fact that they gave money, they became celibate, they worked for low wages, they did this and did that because they thought it would GET them something, enlightenment or at least proximity to the teacher and or inner circle. From what I can tell so far, a spiritual path is not about GETTING anything. If one thinks it is, then one is in store for some major disappointments. Wrong doing is not fine with me and I have spoken up when I thought it was happening. I have fought my battles and I will help any others who ask for my help and whose cause I think is rightful. Why is it good for you to know my opinion on this? From: turquoiseb no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 12:40 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: The key to overcoming cult thinking --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long wrote: Over these 9 months I've been on FFL I realize that what has always been the demarcation line for me, but I wasn't aware of it, is the use of physical violence or the threat of physical violence. For example, the final straw for me in ref to Catholic Church was learning about the Inquisition when I was a freshman at the Univ of Maryland and sat in on my boyfriend's World History class. Physical violence or the threat of it is where I draw the line in any relationship whether it be with an individual or with a group. That would include some individual or group forcing me to commit suicide. All else is an organization consisting of flawed individuals being a flawed and sometimes silly part of this flawed but beautiful world. I see. So fraud, money laundering, the seduction of students by a supposedly trusted teacher, lying, mis- representation to the public *and* to the students, gross misappropriation of funds, forcing students to live a lifestyle counter to their wishes, slavery (what else can you call the pundits), etc. are all just FINE with you, so long as it doesn't come to physical violence. Good to know. From: Rick Archer To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 11:30 AM Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: The key to overcoming cult thinking   From:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of turquoiseb Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 11:14 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: The key to overcoming cult thinking   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer wrote: I would suggest that it might also be important to be able to say I was part of a cult, but I actually benefitted from it in many ways, and while some might be wise to leave it or 'take what they need and leave the rest', others are benefitting from it even now, despite its cult-like aspects. I have no problem with this. My point is about the inability to say the C-word, or admit that this is what they were really part of. That, to me, indicates a subtle intention to remain under the delusion that they could never be deceived, and that they are too smart to be taken in by a cult. Anyone who believes that is still in one. If anyone can look at the robes and crowns, weight in gold, tallest buildings in the world, expensive tiny singing jars of rancid honey, and all the rest, and say it’s not a cult, then I’d like to know what they would consider a cult. Do we have to have mass suicides before we can say we’ve crossed that line?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The key to overcoming cult thinking
For goodness sake man get a grip. You said Good to know after your paragraph beginning with the words I see and ending with the words physical violence. The paragraph in which you wrongly accused me of thinking that a bunch of wrong doing is FINE. I didn't believe that you were inviting me into a confrontation over your opinion. I still believe that you don't read my posts ha ha. If I remember correctly you once said I was the worst something on FFL. So if you're now putting me in another category, that can only be a step up in the FFL world. Yay! From: turquoiseb no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 2:06 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: The key to overcoming cult thinking --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long wrote: I don't agree with the items you list. For example, I don't consider the pandits slaves. And I'm not aware of any students who were, as you say, forced to live a lifestyle counter to their wishes. I think many anti TMers are unwilling to face the fact that they gave money, they became celibate, they worked for low wages, they did this and did that because they thought it would GET them something, enlightenment or at least proximity to the teacher and or inner circle. From what I can tell so far, a spiritual path is not about GETTING anything. If one thinks it is, then one is in store for some major disappointments. Wrong doing is not fine with me and I have spoken up when I thought it was happening. I have fought my battles and I will help any others who ask for my help and whose cause I think is rightful. Why is it good for you to know my opinion on this? What on earth gave you the impression that I was interested in your opinion on any of this? I was merely making a statement about *my* opinion. To believe that I was inviting you into a confront- ation over my opinion merely puts you in the same category as Ann and Robin and Judy. From: turquoiseb no_re...@yahoogroups.com --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long wrote: Over these 9 months I've been on FFL I realize that what has always been the demarcation line for me, but I wasn't aware of it, is the use of physical violence or the threat of physical violence. For example, the final straw for me in ref to Catholic Church was learning about the Inquisition when I was a freshman at the Univ of Maryland and sat in on my boyfriend's World History class. Physical violence or the threat of it is where I draw the line in any relationship whether it be with an individual or with a group. That would include some individual or group forcing me to commit suicide. All else is an organization consisting of flawed individuals being a flawed and sometimes silly part of this flawed but beautiful world. I see. So fraud, money laundering, the seduction of students by a supposedly trusted teacher, lying, mis- representation to the public *and* to the students, gross misappropriation of funds, forcing students to live a lifestyle counter to their wishes, slavery (what else can you call the pundits), etc. are all just FINE with you, so long as it doesn't come to physical violence. Good to know. From: Rick Archer To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 11:30 AM Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: The key to overcoming cult thinking From:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of turquoiseb Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 11:14 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: The key to overcoming cult thinking   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer wrote: I would suggest that it might also be important to be able to say I was part of a cult, but I actually benefitted from it in many ways, and while some might be wise to leave it or 'take what they need and leave the rest', others are benefitting from it even now, despite its cult-like aspects. I have no problem with this. My point is about the inability to say the C-word, or admit that this is what they were really part of. That, to me, indicates a subtle intention to remain under the delusion that they could never be deceived, and that they are too smart to be taken in by a cult. Anyone who believes that is still in one. If anyone can look at the robes and crowns, weight in gold, tallest buildings in the world, expensive tiny singing jars of rancid honey, and all the rest, and say it’s not a cult, then I’d like to know what they would consider a cult. Do we have to have mass suicides before we can say we’ve crossed that line?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The key to overcoming cult thinking
Thanks, Carol, this is a useful perspective. I like the question about how much cult behavior rather than is this group a cult. I like the list of 4 behaviors and the idea that they are present to some degree in all of society. Will ponder how they apply to FFL (-: Some cults devalue the outsider but still try to recruit them. That seems paradoxical. Other cults devalue the outsider and want to have nothing to do with them. Other cults want to eliminate the outsider. From: Carol jchwe...@gmail.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 3:30 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: The key to overcoming cult thinking Judy stated: [...] rigid, black-and-white, all-or-nothing, us-vs.-them thinking--the kind of thinking that is said to be characteristic of cultists.[...] Those are main parts of my definition/understanding of a cult. When I was in The Way and I would be out witnessing (recruiting) and a potential recruitee would respond something like, The Way is a cult. I'd respond, Well how do you define cult? If the person(s) chose to dialog with me and answer my question (rather than run from me like I was some sort of devil-possessed entity), I'd then let them know if The Way was a cult according to their definition. Of course at the time my Way experiences were framed as a proper true believer. I like this excerpt from one of Deikman's book. Us and Them: Cult Thinking and the Terrorist Threat http://www.deikman.com/wrong.html Part of the excerpt states: Some degree of cult behavior can be seen in all groups, so instead of asking Is this group a cult?, a more useful inquiry is: How much cult behavior is taking place here? This question has special urgency as we face the reality of a present-day terrorism whose destructive possibilities have been fearfully magnified by modern technology. Although it is not hard to spot cult behavior in al Qaeda, we are not inclined to notice it in ourselves as we respond to the threat. Yet, we had better be able to do so, because the price of cult behavior is diminished realism. We cannot afford that now. To heighten our awareness, Them and Us identifies four basic cult behaviors that influence our thinking: 1) compliance with a group, 2) dependence on a leader, 3) avoiding dissent, and 4) devaluing the outsider. These forces operate in all aspects of society. The core process is devaluing the outsider, resulting in Them-versus-Us behavior. [...] * --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: It's interesting how mired Barry and Michael are in rigid, black-and-white, all-or-nothing, us-vs.-them thinking--the kind of thinking that is said to be characteristic of cultists. Here, Barry chooses to equate flawed with just fine, even though the meaning of flawed is NOT just fine. And Michael left a post indicating he believes that to say corporations' behavior is at least as bad as that of the TMO is the same as not holding the TMO responsible for its misdeeds. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long wrote: Over these 9 months I've been on FFL I realize that what has always been the demarcation line for me, but I wasn't aware of it, is the use of physical violence or the threat of physical violence. For example, the final straw for me in ref to Catholic Church was learning about the Inquisition when I was a freshman at the Univ of Maryland and sat in on my boyfriend's World History class. Physical violence or the threat of it is where I draw the line in any relationship whether it be with an individual or with a group. That would include some individual or group forcing me to commit suicide. All else is an organization consisting of flawed individuals being a flawed and sometimes silly part of this flawed but beautiful world. I see. So fraud, money laundering, the seduction of students by a supposedly trusted teacher, lying, mis- representation to the public *and* to the students, gross misappropriation of funds, forcing students to live a lifestyle counter to their wishes, slavery (what else can you call the pundits), etc. are all just FINE with you, so long as it doesn't come to physical violence. Good to know.
