Re: Installation plays hardball
On 12/31/2009 01:49 AM, Garrick Sitongia wrote: I just installed Fedora for the first time on my Windows/Linux dual boot system. The Fedora installer gave me the option of installing over the present linux installation on the disk, an old Mandriva version. I assumed this meant the operating system partition. There were 2 other unrelated ext3 partitions for photo archives and e-mail backup. After booting into Fedora I discovered that the Fedora installer wiped every linux partition without confirmation or consent. I have installed other versions of Linux and I have always been given a choice. Your installer should indicate that ALL linux type file systems will be wiped, in addition to the operating system file system. Garrick My sympathies. There are tools that can recover the data if you don't write to the disk anymore. I have done it in the past. To respond to the rest of the messages. I have used LVM and it has it's good and bad points. I have since stopped using it due to the issues I had. The only issue was the LVM name on a removed drive that I wanted to recover data from. The menu system should come up with a Confirm by default. When there is existing data, the second to have two pop-up's asking you to be sure would be well worth it. I installed F12 on three different systems over the past couple of weeks and in all cases the default was not what I would have chosen. The idea of installing is to replace, upgrading is to keep some data. This a user issue. My only issue with installing was encrypted drives (No LVM) dropping the system out of the installation process. Did it on two different systems. Reboot and restart with the encrypted partitions already formed. I guess there needs to be a bug report. Maybe a check box for using LVM would be nice as well. -- Robin Laing -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Installation plays hardball
Tim: If you're the sort that uses one huge partition for everything (and that does seem to be the recommendation, these days), *and* you never intend to add a second drive, then LVM is pointless to you. R. G. Newbury: ONE HUGE PARTITION? I'd like to know who is crazy enough to recommend that, because I would want to stay well away from him. That's *almost* as bad as win(spit!). ;-) On this list, there's been some advocacy for /boot and /, and no more partitions. Even the installer defaults went that way (whether the / was LVM, or something else). There's even some who've not had a /boot (and we've had to guide them through why that worked the first time around, but not after the drive filled up a bit, and put things where the BIOS couldn't read the drive to begin booting). I always set up my boxen with separate partitions for /boot, /home, /tmp, /var and /. I've tended to do the same. Though gave into to just /boot and / for my laptop, as it's not easy to add another drive in a sane manner, so I may as well just use the whole drive in a simple manner. Not to mention that the drive's encrypted, so it's quite hard to do any sort of updates that aren't a complete wipe and restart, anyway. Keeping a /home between installs has some problems, too. You find that certain things don't like your old .configuration files. -- [...@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Installation plays hardball
On Tue, 2010-01-05 at 18:31 +1030, Tim wrote: Keeping a /home between installs has some problems, too. You find that certain things don't like your old .configuration files. That's true independently of how you partition. Even if you do reformat /home, presumably you backup and restore your data. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Installation plays hardball
On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 8:29 AM, John Aldrich wrote: It's all there in the GUI, and it's completely configurable. Nothing is forced down on you, AFAIK. That's true. However, it *defaults* to LVM. i.e., users who did not change the defaults/do not know the implications of the defaults/do not even know what the defaults are or why they should change them, have LVM forced upon them. Everyone who tries Linux is not a partition master. It's a chicken-without-egg problem. You don't gain more testers or users, without lowering the barrier to entry in a friendly way. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Installation plays hardball
Yes, and I did, mostly with custom, over and over again. Id est, I tried to increase the size of /boot any way I could, and never found any way to add a single byte. Are you talking about increasing the size of /boot before or after the install? (I can't tell.) Incidentally, my memory is that /boot will not be managed by LVM under any ordinary (much less default) setup. That means it will have to be either a base MSDOS partition or MSDOS extended partition. That puts it out of LVM's ken. Completely. LVM is entirely irrelevant to your issues, or it should be. Based on what you've said elsewhere, I suspect where you are getting stuck is in disk druid, the GUI tool that the install process uses to allow you to set up a partition map with both LVM and non-LVM partitions and not worry about what to do with which, meaning that it calls into the gparted and LVM tools for you. You aren't, by any chance, trying to change the size of /boot on a PPC Mac, are you? I'm not knowledgeable enough to do sophisticated partitioning -- that would be like a half-blind spastic (both of which I resemble at times) trying to shave with a straight razor. He might succeed, of course. Partitioning really isn't rocket science. I suppose that it may sound like I'm insulting you to say that, but I'm not. Trust me. The scariest part of partitioning is trying to guess how much you need where, and that was one of the original reasons for the existence of the LVM project. The other scariest part is that the old tools allowed you to declare the partitions to begin and end at certain places when setting up the labels, and then allowed you to tell the system they started and ended at other places, which is definitely, well, not rocket science, but a bit scary. If your eyes just glazed over, don't worry. It would be pretty hard to get any of the GUI tools to allow you to do that. You'd have to try really, really hard. So you really don't need to know about that. Alternatively, you may create LVM volumes and partitions inside them. It's all there in the GUI, and it's completely configurable. Nothing is forced down on you, AFAIK. I haven't the faintest conception what LVM is, much less what good it is to the Alpha Plus Technoids who understand it, but whose prowess I no more aspire to than they to expertise on the history of tongues. I did try, several times each, not only with Anaconda but by accepting the risk of using gparted and qtparted. All refused, every time, to let me add a single byte to /boot. Did you try deleting the partition after /boot first? That's the usual step. It may not be necessary when performing a fresh install, but once the partitions have been cut (labeled, really), you need special tools to move partitions, and if you resize one partition, the partitions after that one must be moved. (Unless you're using LVM.) That means that, if you have any important data (configuration files, etc.) in the partition after /boot, you need to back that up first. Okay, that's the other scariest part. If you have data in a partition that you can't afford to lose, you really, really should back it up first. Okay, okay, physically moving partitions is scary. Theoretically, it's just moving bits around, but calculating from where to where, well, yes, that can get close to rocket science in terms of being hard. And, no, we do not have an equivalent to Partition Magik or whatever that was. (Been seriously bit by PM. I mean, to the point of copying an important project out of a botched MSWindows system on floppies. And even with access to Microsoft's documentation, Norton has a little trouble with that stuff.) There are gnu tools for moving the data when resizing partitions, but those are also easy to screw up with. The only thing I miss is the ability to use old-school fdisk instead of disk druid, but over time I learned to trust it to do its job as well as fdisk. :-) Fdisk is another of the things of which I know only how to spell them; life is too short The only thing you have to fear is fear itself. (Just kidding.) Hopefully, what I've written above will provide enough clues that you can figure out how to tell us what you're really trying to do, and then it will be easier to give you advice, suggest alternatives, etc. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Installation plays hardball
On Fri, 2010-01-01 at 20:20 +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Clearly we have different needs. I've never needed to do any of those things without stopping the system. In fact the adding space thing is probably what looks most attractive, but I'm paranoid about disk failure so I can't see myself ever expanding a filesystem across more than one physical partition. I do realize that for a large multi-user installation with RAID drives and whatnot LVM is the bee's knees, but on my desktop I just make do with a judicious use of symlinks. It makes almost no sense to use it on laptops, where you can only have a single drive (adding an outboard drive is quite impractical, you'd end up with a box of bits all cabled together). And you face the difficulty of finding recovery tools for LVM (I haven't seen any) for any repair jobs, but there are widely written about tools for rescuing data from ext3 partitions. The only advantage I found for using LVM on my laptop was encryption. I could have the encompassing LVM volume encrypted, and as many partitions as I liked, and only have to unlock the outer container. Using various ext3 partitions, I had to type in the password numerous times to boot up the computer. If you're the sort that uses one huge partition for everything (and that does seem to be the recommendation, these days), *and* you never intend to add a second drive, then LVM is pointless to you. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Installation plays hardball
On Sat, Jan 02, 2010 at 20:10:37 +1030, Tim ignored_mail...@yahoo.com.au wrote: The only advantage I found for using LVM on my laptop was encryption. I could have the encompassing LVM volume encrypted, and as many partitions as I liked, and only have to unlock the outer container. Using various ext3 partitions, I had to type in the password numerous times to boot up the computer. You should have to do that. The password entered for the first encrypted partition gets tried for other ones. Both in the initial part of the boot and later when udev is running. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Installation plays hardball
On Sat, 2010-01-02 at 20:10 +1030, Tim wrote: If you're the sort that uses one huge partition for everything (and that does seem to be the recommendation, these days), *and* you never intend to add a second drive, then LVM is pointless to you. I keep /, /boot and /home on separate partitions and am happy with how it works. If / grows too large I will move something (e.g. /var/cache) to a directory on /home (or on a second drive) and point to it. There's no problem in adding a second drive as long as you don't expect to merge it into an existing filesystem below the API level (which is what LVM allows). The downside of LVM is that a failure of one of the drives will leave you completely borked in the LVM case and only partially borked in the non-LVM case. If you're careful about how you distribute your filesystem you can reduce the impact, whereas with LVM you have absolutely no control over where it places files. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Installation plays hardball
On Friday 01 January 2010, Marko Vojinovic wrote: On Friday 01 January 2010 19:31:07 BeartoothHOS wrote: I know Anaconda offers an option to *hide* LVM, but I don't recall any choice to eschew it entirely. Am I just having a memory lapse? Ehmm, during the installation, at some point Anaconda will ask you how you want the disk set up, and you can choose between various partition layouts: default, this, that, and --- custom. So choose to create custom layout, and use the GUI interface (is it called disk druid?) to create all the partitions you want manually. The type of each partition is at your disposal to choose --- ext#, fat, this, that, etc... Alternetively, you may create LVM volumes and partitions inside them. It's all there in the GUI, and it's completely configurable. Nothing is forced down on you, AFAIK. That's true. However, it *defaults* to LVM. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Installation plays hardball
On Fri, 1 Jan 2010, Marko Vojinovic wrote: On Friday 01 January 2010 19:31:07 BeartoothHOS wrote: I know Anaconda offers an option to *hide* LVM, but I don't recall any choice to eschew it entirely. Am I just having a memory lapse? Ehmm, during the installation, at some point Anaconda will ask you how you want the disk set up, and you can choose between various partition layouts: default, this, that, and --- custom. So choose to create custom layout, and use the GUI interface (is it called disk druid?) to create all the partitions you want manually. The type of each partition is at your disposal to choose --- ext#, fat, this, that, etc... Yes, and I did, mostly with custom, over and over again. Id est, I tried to increase the size of /boot any way I could, and never found any way to add a single byte. I'm not knowledgeable enough to do sophisticated partitioning -- that would be like a half-blind spastic (both of which I resemble at times) trying to shave with a straight razor. He might succeed, of course. Alternatively, you may create LVM volumes and partitions inside them. It's all there in the GUI, and it's completely configurable. Nothing is forced down on you, AFAIK. I haven't the faintest conception what LVM is, much less what good it is to the Alpha Plus Technoids who understand it, but whose prowess I no more aspire to than they to expertise on the history of tongues. I did try, several times each, not only with Anaconda but by accepting the risk of using gparted and qtparted. All refused, every time, to let me add a single byte to /boot. The only thing I miss is the ability to use old-school fdisk instead of disk druid, but over time I learned to trust it to do its job as well as fdisk. :-) Fdisk is another of the things of which I know only how to spell them; life is too short -- Beartooth Staffwright, Neo-Redneck Not Quite Clueless Power User I have precious (very precious!) little idea where up is. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Installation plays hardball
On Sat, 02 Jan 2010 20:10:37 +1030, Tim wrote It makes almost no sense to use it on laptops, where you can only have single drive (adding an outboard drive is quite impractical, you'd end up with a box of bits all cabled together). And you face the difficulty of finding recovery tools for LVM (I haven't seen any) for any repair jobs, but there are widely written about tools for rescuing data from ext3 partitions. The only advantage I found for using LVM on my laptop was encryption. I could have the encompassing LVM volume encrypted, and as many partitions as I liked, and only have to unlock the outer container. Using various ext3 partitions, I had to type in the password numerous times to boot up the computer. If you're the sort that uses one huge partition for everything (and that does seem to be the recommendation, these days), *and* you never intend to add a second drive, then LVM is pointless to you. ONE HUGE PARTITION? I'd like to know who is crazy enough to recommend that, because I would want to stay well away from him. That's *almost* as bad as win(spit!). I always set up my boxen with separate partitions for /boot, /home, /tmp, /var and /. And /var/lib/mysql is a symlink into /home/misc, as is /var/www/html. That way if /tmp or /var ever fill from error messages, it is simple to clean up and get running again. Also, with /home as a separate partition, it is dead simple to install again, or install a new version or distro without destroying all your data. Most installs seem to want to over-write /var too, even if/when you say 'Don't format', which is why /var/lib/mysql and /var/www/html are symlinked elsewhere. (You *DO* want to lose your Nolapro accounting setup and accounting data too in one swell foop?). On this desktop I also have a partition for /usr/local, for all my *own* programs and scripts. Geoff -- Please let me know if anything I say offends you. I may wish to offend you again in the future. Tux says: Be regular. Eat cron flakes. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Installation plays hardball
On Sat, 2010-01-02 at 11:35 -0500, Beartooth Comcast wrote: I tried to increase the size of /boot any way I could, and never found any way to add a single byte. Note that you can only do that if there's unassigned space after the partition you want to grow. If there isn't, you have to create it. For example the following is a typical layout (ignoring swap for simplicity): |-- / --|- /boot -|-- /home --| Assuming that /home fills all the remaining space, you'd need to first shrink it: |-- / --|- /boot -|- /home -| | then shift it rightwards: |-- / --|- /boot -| |- /home -| and finally grow /boot: |-- / --|-- /boot --|- /home -| In gparted you just set all this up and then the program will figure out the best order to execute the various operations to get the result. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Installation plays hardball
I think it possible to recover the files in the partitions wiped by the Fedora installer. Testdisk correctly found the partitions I want to recover, but it says they are corrupted (stop). Data Recovery Wizard Professional recovered the file tree of one partition and the raw files of the other partition. But at $90, Yikes! Is there any cheaper solution to try? I'll also have to buy a 320 GB hard disk to save the recovered files to and sort them out. What did the Fedora installer do to these partitions? Garrick On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 00:49:27 -0800, Garrick Sitongia siton...@fastmail.us said: I just installed Fedora for the first time on my Windows/Linux dual boot system. The Fedora installer gave me the option of installing over the present linux installation on the disk, an old Mandriva version. I assumed this meant the operating system partition. There were 2 other unrelated ext3 partitions for photo archives and e-mail backup. After booting into Fedora I discovered that the Fedora installer wiped every linux partition without confirmation or consent. I have installed other versions of Linux and I have always been given a choice. Your installer should indicate that ALL linux type file systems will be wiped, in addition to the operating system file system. Garrick -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Installation plays hardball
I think it possible to recover the files in the partitions wiped by the Fedora installer. Testdisk correctly found the partitions I want to recover, but it says they are corrupted (stop). EASEUS Data Recovery Wizard Professional recovered the file tree of one partition and the raw files of the other partition. But at $90, Yikes! Is there any cheaper solution to try? I'll also have to buy a 320 GB hard disk to save the recovered files to and sort them out. What did the Fedora installer do to these partitions? Garrick On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 00:49:27 -0800, Garrick Sitongia siton...@fastmail.us said: I just installed Fedora for the first time on my Windows/Linux dual boot system. The Fedora installer gave me the option of installing over the present linux installation on the disk, an old Mandriva version. I assumed this meant the operating system partition. There were 2 other unrelated ext3 partitions for photo archives and e-mail backup. After booting into Fedora I discovered that the Fedora installer wiped every linux partition without confirmation or consent. I have installed other versions of Linux and I have always been given a choice. Your installer should indicate that ALL linux type file systems will be wiped, in addition to the operating system file system. Garrick -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Installation plays hardball
I think it possible to recover the files in the partitions wiped by the Fedora installer. Testdisk correctly found the partitions I want to recover, but it says they are corrupted (stop). A commercial trial software showed it can recover the file tree of one partition and the raw files of the other partition. But at $90, Yikes! Is there any cheaper solution to try? I'll also have to buy a 320 GB hard disk to save the recovered files to and sort them out. What did the Fedora installer do to these partitions? Garrick On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 00:49:27 -0800, Garrick Sitongia siton...@fastmail.us said: I just installed Fedora for the first time on my Windows/Linux dual boot system. The Fedora installer gave me the option of installing over the present linux installation on the disk, an old Mandriva version. I assumed this meant the operating system partition. There were 2 other unrelated ext3 partitions for photo archives and e-mail backup. After booting into Fedora I discovered that the Fedora installer wiped every linux partition without confirmation or consent. I have installed other versions of Linux and I have always been given a choice. Your installer should indicate that ALL linux type file systems will be wiped, in addition to the operating system file system. Garrick -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Installation plays hardball
On Thursday 31 December 2009, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: A large number of RHEL sites _will_ make use of LVM (indeed, may even require LVM). We are, remember, the experimental lab rats for the eventual RHEL releases, so LVM must be tested as thoroughly as the rest of the system. I for one am not testing LVM since I don't use it. I fact I go out of my way to remove it so I can have a system I understand. Those who don't have the skills to remove it aren't testing it in any meaningful sense either. That would seem to leave a fairly small subset of users, all of whom could certainly install it it they needed it and really would be testers in the proper sense of the word. Agreed. I'm not saying to not include LVM, but my suggestion is to not make it the default! -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Installation plays hardball
On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 15:17:40 -0500, John Aldrich wrote: On Thursday 31 December 2009, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Somewhat OT: IMHO one thing that makes installing Fedora harder than it needs to be for the majority of users is the default use of LVM. I've been using Fedora since before it was Fedora, and have *never* had a situation in which LVM was any use to me. [] On this we can agree. My last F11 install blew up because of a problem with LVM. I don't do LVM because I've got a fairly minimal computer. [] I have one more, and the most critical machine on which to replace F11 with F12 -- and I picked up a hint the other day that LVM was the reason I kept being unable, by any means I could find, to increase the size of /boot. I would like very much to get rid of LVM -- but have no clue how. I know Anaconda offers an option to *hide* LVM, but I don't recall any choice to eschew it entirely. Am I just having a memory lapse? If not, would some kind soul please explain to this subtechnoid how to do it? -- Beartooth Staffwright, Neo-Redneck Not Quite Clueless Power User I have precious (very precious!) little idea where up is. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Installation plays hardball
On Thu, 2009-12-31 at 19:47 +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Somewhat OT: IMHO one thing that makes installing Fedora harder than it needs to be for the majority of users is the default use of LVM. I've been using Fedora since before it was Fedora, and have *never* had a situation in which LVM was any use to me. I understand the benefits it brings to large installations with complex and varying storage requirements, but that's not the case for most people and having to deal with its highly domain-specific terminology turns it into a mental obstacle that would be better avoided. I thought that both LVM technology and its benefits were widely understood by now. It has a lot of value even in a single-disk situation: you can shuffle space between filesystems, migrate data to a new disk, add space from a new disk to an existing filesystem, and create a copy-on-write snapshot of a filesystem -- and do most of that while the system is running. It's saved my bacon more times than I want to admit. Rather than remove LVM from the default installation, perhaps we need to do a better job of explaining what it does and how to use it effectively. -Chris -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Installation plays hardball
On Fri, 2010-01-01 at 15:02 -0500, Chris Tyler wrote: On Thu, 2009-12-31 at 19:47 +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Somewhat OT: IMHO one thing that makes installing Fedora harder than it needs to be for the majority of users is the default use of LVM. I've been using Fedora since before it was Fedora, and have *never* had a situation in which LVM was any use to me. I understand the benefits it brings to large installations with complex and varying storage requirements, but that's not the case for most people and having to deal with its highly domain-specific terminology turns it into a mental obstacle that would be better avoided. I thought that both LVM technology and its benefits were widely understood by now. It has a lot of value even in a single-disk situation: you can shuffle space between filesystems, migrate data to a new disk, add space from a new disk to an existing filesystem, and create a copy-on-write snapshot of a filesystem -- and do most of that while the system is running. It's saved my bacon more times than I want to admit. Clearly we have different needs. I've never needed to do any of those things without stopping the system. In fact the adding space thing is probably what looks most attractive, but I'm paranoid about disk failure so I can't see myself ever expanding a filesystem across more than one physical partition. I do realize that for a large multi-user installation with RAID drives and whatnot LVM is the bee's knees, but on my desktop I just make do with a judicious use of symlinks. Rather than remove LVM from the default installation, perhaps we need to do a better job of explaining what it does and how to use it effectively. That's true independently of whether LVM is the default or not. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Installation plays hardball
On Fri, 2010-01-01 at 19:31 +, BeartoothHOS wrote: On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 15:17:40 -0500, John Aldrich wrote: On Thursday 31 December 2009, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Somewhat OT: IMHO one thing that makes installing Fedora harder than it needs to be for the majority of users is the default use of LVM. I've been using Fedora since before it was Fedora, and have *never* had a situation in which LVM was any use to me. [] On this we can agree. My last F11 install blew up because of a problem with LVM. I don't do LVM because I've got a fairly minimal computer. [] I have one more, and the most critical machine on which to replace F11 with F12 -- and I picked up a hint the other day that LVM was the reason I kept being unable, by any means I could find, to increase the size of /boot. I would like very much to get rid of LVM -- but have no clue how. I know Anaconda offers an option to *hide* LVM, but I don't recall any choice to eschew it entirely. Am I just having a memory lapse? If not, would some kind soul please explain to this subtechnoid how to do it? It's been a while but I think I just formatted the disk w/o LVM. I wouldn't think it's possible to remove LVM from an existing layout without backing up and reformatting. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Installation plays hardball
On Friday 01 January 2010 19:31:07 BeartoothHOS wrote: I know Anaconda offers an option to *hide* LVM, but I don't recall any choice to eschew it entirely. Am I just having a memory lapse? Ehmm, during the installation, at some point Anaconda will ask you how you want the disk set up, and you can choose between various partition layouts: default, this, that, and --- custom. So choose to create custom layout, and use the GUI interface (is it called disk druid?) to create all the partitions you want manually. The type of each partition is at your disposal to choose --- ext#, fat, this, that, etc... Alternetively, you may create LVM volumes and partitions inside them. It's all there in the GUI, and it's completely configurable. Nothing is forced down on you, AFAIK. The only thing I miss is the ability to use old-school fdisk instead of disk druid, but over time I learned to trust it to do its job as well as fdisk. :-) HTH, :-) Marko -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Installation plays hardball
On Thursday 31 December 2009, Garrick Sitongia wrote: I just installed Fedora for the first time on my Windows/Linux dual boot system. The Fedora installer gave me the option of installing over the present linux installation on the disk, an old Mandriva version. I assumed this meant the operating system partition. There were 2 other unrelated ext3 partitions for photo archives and e-mail backup. After booting into Fedora I discovered that the Fedora installer wiped every linux partition without confirmation or consent. I have installed other versions of Linux and I have always been given a choice. Your installer should indicate that ALL linux type file systems will be wiped, in addition to the operating system file system. that's why you should choose the customize option when installing. I installed F12 on a new hard drive and re-used my /home partition on another drive. While F12 didn't work (due to a problem with the way the BIOS has the drives -- need to change the boot order and refresh the install -- my problem, not Fedora's) my F11 system is still here. As I said, you need to choose to use a custom partition scheme, otherwise, Fedora will wipe every linux partition as happened to you. Granted, it's not obvious, but if you've been playing with linux for more than a couple distributions, I'd think you'd already have some notion of this by now. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Installation plays hardball
John == John Aldrich jmaldr...@yahoo.com writes: John As I said, you need to choose to use a custom partition John scheme, otherwise, Fedora will wipe every linux partition as John happened to you. Granted, it's not obvious, but if you've John been playing with linux for more than a couple John distributions, I'd think you'd already have some notion of John this by now. I've been using Fedora since its inception, and it wasn't obvious to me at all. I didn't actually trip up over it, as I was treading very carefully, but I must say I have plenty of sympathy for the OP. -- Colin Adams Preston Lancashire -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Installation plays hardball
On Thu, 2009-12-31 at 12:13 +, Colin Paul Adams wrote: John == John Aldrich jmaldr...@yahoo.com writes: John As I said, you need to choose to use a custom partition John scheme, otherwise, Fedora will wipe every linux partition as John happened to you. Granted, it's not obvious, but if you've John been playing with linux for more than a couple John distributions, I'd think you'd already have some notion of John this by now. I've been using Fedora since its inception, and it wasn't obvious to me at all. I didn't actually trip up over it, as I was treading very carefully, but I must say I have plenty of sympathy for the OP. Agreed. The exact consequences of each choice need to be explained much more explicitly, including a specific warning of when the next step will be irreversible. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Installation plays hardball
On Thu, 2009-12-31 at 13:17 +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Thu, 2009-12-31 at 12:13 +, Colin Paul Adams wrote: John == John Aldrich jmaldr...@yahoo.com writes: John As I said, you need to choose to use a custom partition John scheme, otherwise, Fedora will wipe every linux partition as John happened to you. Granted, it's not obvious, but if you've John been playing with linux for more than a couple John distributions, I'd think you'd already have some notion of John this by now. I've been using Fedora since its inception, and it wasn't obvious to me at all. I didn't actually trip up over it, as I was treading very carefully, but I must say I have plenty of sympathy for the OP. Agreed. The exact consequences of each choice need to be explained much more explicitly, including a specific warning of when the next step will be irreversible. At the bottom of that window when you make your choice, there is a box that says (paraphrasing) - Review modifications - that you can check to make sure it's doing the right thing. And if it's not, you can modify what is going on and change it, or at least hit back button and choose a different option. (this box won't appear if you customize obviously) -- Mike Chambers Madisonville, KY Best lil town on Earth! -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Installation plays hardball
On Thu, 2009-12-31 at 00:49 -0800, Garrick Sitongia wrote: I just installed Fedora for the first time on my Windows/Linux dual boot system. The Fedora installer gave me the option of installing over the present linux installation on the disk, an old Mandriva version. I assumed this meant the operating system partition. There were 2 other unrelated ext3 partitions for photo archives and e-mail backup. After booting into Fedora I discovered that the Fedora installer wiped every linux partition without confirmation or consent. I have installed other versions of Linux and I have always been given a choice. Your installer should indicate that ALL linux type file systems will be wiped, in addition to the operating system file system. Garrick In the installation process after you say you want to install Fedora there is an option to manually configure the partitions.(manually is not in the option but that is the idea) A GUI opens which allows you to decide to format or not to format the partition and to decide where it will be mounted. -- === Laughing at you is like drop-kicking a wounded humming bird. === Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akons...@sbcglobal.net -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Installation plays hardball
On Thu, 2009-12-31 at 08:25 -0600, Mike Chambers wrote: At the bottom of that window when you make your choice, there is a box that says (paraphrasing) - Review modifications - that you can check to make sure it's doing the right thing. And if it's not, you can modify what is going on and change it, or at least hit back button and choose a different option. (this box won't appear if you customize obviously) Ya know, after reading this and discussing on irc, actually that box needs to either move up higher or actually just be automatically included in partitioning as sure it's not that much more bigger deal to include? -- Mike Chambers Madisonville, KY Best lil town on Earth! -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Installation plays hardball
On Thursday 31 December 2009, Mike Chambers wrote: On Thu, 2009-12-31 at 08:25 -0600, Mike Chambers wrote: At the bottom of that window when you make your choice, there is a box that says (paraphrasing) - Review modifications - that you can check to make sure it's doing the right thing. And if it's not, you can modify what is going on and change it, or at least hit back button and choose a different option. (this box won't appear if you customize obviously) Ya know, after reading this and discussing on irc, actually that box needs to either move up higher or actually just be automatically included in partitioning as sure it's not that much more bigger deal to include? That might not be a bad idea. That being said, I've been using linux since before RH stopped releasing free versions for home use and I have to say, I haven't had a real problem with it. OTOH, I almost always customize so I do NOT blow everything away and start from scratch. I have my home partition information almost from the very first linux install I ever did. Granted it's not on the same *drives* but the data is still there, due to having a separate partition for everything! I can see both sides of this. I don't think it would hurt anything to have a *little* hand-holding by the installer, something to the effect of If you don't want to blow everythign away and start from scratch, choose a different option when you just accept the default. OTOH, I don't really want to turn Fedora into the Microsoft of linux where you don't have to expend any brain power to install! -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Installation plays hardball
Aaron Konstam wrote: A GUI opens which allows you to decide to format or not to format the partition and to decide where it will be mounted. Manually configure should be the default, not the present default, which basically destroys all of your existing partitions and data. Luckily, I, as a long-time Fedora user, have not fallen for this and know what to look for, but it is an underhanded default that does not win friends. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Installation plays hardball
On Thu, 2009-12-31 at 11:22 -0500, John Aldrich wrote: I can see both sides of this. I don't think it would hurt anything to have a *little* hand-holding by the installer, something to the effect of If you don't want to blow everythign away and start from scratch, choose a different option when you just accept the default. OTOH, I don't really want to turn Fedora into the Microsoft of linux where you don't have to expend any brain power to install! I don't think anyone has suggested that. I'm just saying the choices should be available, but the consequences should be clear. I know for a fact that on several occasions I've had to guess whether what I was doing was the right thing because the UI made too many assumptions. Sorry I can't be more specific (the last couple of times I just used preupgrade so it's been a while). Somewhat OT: IMHO one thing that makes installing Fedora harder than it needs to be for the majority of users is the default use of LVM. I've been using Fedora since before it was Fedora, and have *never* had a situation in which LVM was any use to me. I understand the benefits it brings to large installations with complex and varying storage requirements, but that's not the case for most people and having to deal with its highly domain-specific terminology turns it into a mental obstacle that would be better avoided. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Installation plays hardball
On Thursday 31 December 2009, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Somewhat OT: IMHO one thing that makes installing Fedora harder than it needs to be for the majority of users is the default use of LVM. I've been using Fedora since before it was Fedora, and have *never* had a situation in which LVM was any use to me. I understand the benefits it brings to large installations with complex and varying storage requirements, but that's not the case for most people and having to deal with its highly domain-specific terminology turns it into a mental obstacle that would be better avoided. On this we can agree. My last F11 install blew up because of a problem with LVM. I don't do LVM because I've got a fairly minimal computer. It's not like I've got a 100 Tbyte RAID array or anything like that... I just have no use for LVM so I can understand what you're saying. I agree that LVM should default to off but that it should be easy for more advanced users to turn it on should they need it. Perhaps someone will read this and say hey, these guys have a point. Let's change the defaults! :-) -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Installation plays hardball
On 12/31/2009 11:47 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: snip Somewhat OT: IMHO one thing that makes installing Fedora harder than it needs to be for the majority of users is the default use of LVM. I've been using Fedora since before it was Fedora, and have *never* had a situation in which LVM was any use to me. I understand the benefits it brings to large installations with complex and varying storage requirements, but that's not the case for most people and having to deal with its highly domain-specific terminology turns it into a mental obstacle that would be better avoided. I think what must be remembered here is that, while most of us Fedora users generally work in a desktop environment (with GUIs and the lot) and have little or no use for LVM, at some point Fedora X will become Red Hat Enterprise Linux X. A large number of RHEL sites _will_ make use of LVM (indeed, may even require LVM). We are, remember, the experimental lab rats for the eventual RHEL releases, so LVM must be tested as thoroughly as the rest of the system. -- - Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer ri...@nerd.com - - AIM/Skype: therps2ICQ: 22643734Yahoo: origrps2 - -- - When all else fails, try reading the instructions.- -- -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Installation plays hardball
Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: I've been using Fedora since before it was Fedora, and have never had a situation in which LVM was any use to me. +1 -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Installation plays hardball
On Thu, 2009-12-31 at 12:28 -0800, Rick Stevens wrote: On 12/31/2009 11:47 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: snip Somewhat OT: IMHO one thing that makes installing Fedora harder than it needs to be for the majority of users is the default use of LVM. I've been using Fedora since before it was Fedora, and have *never* had a situation in which LVM was any use to me. I understand the benefits it brings to large installations with complex and varying storage requirements, but that's not the case for most people and having to deal with its highly domain-specific terminology turns it into a mental obstacle that would be better avoided. I think what must be remembered here is that, while most of us Fedora users generally work in a desktop environment (with GUIs and the lot) and have little or no use for LVM, at some point Fedora X will become Red Hat Enterprise Linux X. A large number of RHEL sites _will_ make use of LVM (indeed, may even require LVM). We are, remember, the experimental lab rats for the eventual RHEL releases, so LVM must be tested as thoroughly as the rest of the system. I for one am not testing LVM since I don't use it. I fact I go out of my way to remove it so I can have a system I understand. Those who don't have the skills to remove it aren't testing it in any meaningful sense either. That would seem to leave a fairly small subset of users, all of whom could certainly install it it they needed it and really would be testers in the proper sense of the word. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
