Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Accurately describing ffmpeg-cvslog list [was: Re: [PATCH] Refactor Developer Docs, update dev list section (v2)]

[Clément Bœsch]

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 11:19:01PM +, Rostislav Pehlivanov wrote:
> On 27 November 2017 at 23:05, Ronald S. Bultje  wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 6:03 PM, Carl Eugen Hoyos 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > 2017-11-26 22:57 GMT+01:00 Jim DeLaHunt :
> > > > On 2017-11-26 03:42, Carl Eugen Hoyos wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> 2017-11-26 9:31 GMT+01:00 Jim DeLaHunt :
> > > >> [...]
> > > >>>
> > > >>> +
> > > >>>   @subheading Subscribe to the ffmpeg-cvslog mailing list.
> > > >>> -It is important to do this as the diffs of all commits are sent
> > there
> > > >>> and
> > > >>> -reviewed by all the other developers. Bugs and possible improvements
> > > or
> > > >>> -general questions regarding commits are discussed there. We expect
> > you
> > > >>> to
> > > >>> -react if problems with your code are uncovered.
> > > >>> +Diffs of all commits are sent to the
> > > >>> +@uref{https://lists.ffmpeg.org/mailman/listinfo/ffmpeg-cvslog,
> > > >>> ffmpeg-cvslog}
> > > >>> +mailing list. Some developers read this list to review all code base
> > > >>> changes
> > > >>> +from all sources. Subscribing to this list is not mandatory, if
> > > >>> +all you want to do is submit a patch here and there.
> > > >>
> > > >> I am (still) against this change.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > OK, what specifically are you against?  More important, what are you in
> > > > favour of?
> > >
> > > I have no issue with the current text.
> > >
> > > If you believe that it is unclear that there is a difference between an
> > > occasional contributor (who most likely would not read -devel nor
> > > -cvslog) and a committer (who is supposed to read -cvslog), then
> > > maybe a patch is useful.
> >
> >
> > FYI I'm a committer and I do not read -cvslog.
> >
> > Ronald
> > ___
> > ffmpeg-devel mailing list
> > ffmpeg-devel@ffmpeg.org
> > http://ffmpeg.org/mailman/listinfo/ffmpeg-devel
> >
> 
> Yeah, never touched cvslog either.
> If someone has comments to a commit which was pushed and doesn't use IRC
> then they should send an email to this ML. Or better yet use IRC.

I'm subscribed to cvslog, and sometimes use it to comment on a commit.
But when I do, I CC ffmpeg-devel anyway. I don't think cvslog subscription
should be mandatory at all, even for core developers. It's fine to
acknowledge its existence in the developers documentation though.

-- 
Clément B.


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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Accurately describing ffmpeg-cvslog list [was: Re: [PATCH] Refactor Developer Docs, update dev list section (v2)]

[Jim DeLaHunt]

On 2017-11-27 15:03, Carl Eugen Hoyos wrote:


2017-11-26 22:57 GMT+01:00 Jim DeLaHunt :

On 2017-11-26 03:42, Carl Eugen Hoyos wrote:


2017-11-26 9:31 GMT+01:00 Jim DeLaHunt :
[...]

+
   @subheading Subscribe to the ffmpeg-cvslog mailing list.
-It is important to do this as the diffs of all commits are sent there
and
-reviewed by all the other developers. Bugs and possible improvements or
-general questions regarding commits are discussed there. We expect you
to
-react if problems with your code are uncovered.
+Diffs of all commits are sent to the
+@uref{https://lists.ffmpeg.org/mailman/listinfo/ffmpeg-cvslog,
ffmpeg-cvslog}
+mailing list. Some developers read this list to review all code base
changes
+from all sources. Subscribing to this list is not mandatory, if
+all you want to do is submit a patch here and there.

I am (still) against this change.


OK, what specifically are you against?  More important, what are you in
favour of?

I have no issue with the current text.


With respect, this section of ffmpeg.org/develop.html is not intended 
for an experienced, knowledgeable, deeply involved senior committer like 
you.  So it doesn't really matter that you have no issue with the 
current text. What matters is whether a new developer, trying to learn 
how to contribute to ffmpeg, has an issue with the text.


I can tell you that, as a new contributor reading this section with 
fresh eyes, I most certainly do have an issue with this text. It says 
things about how ffmpeg-cvslog are used that are flat out incorrect. 
Incorrect instructions waste time and cause confusion.



If you believe that it is unclear that there is a difference between an
occasional contributor (who most likely would not read -devel nor
-cvslog) and a committer (who is supposed to read -cvslog), then
maybe a patch is useful.


I will point out that two more people, Ronald[1] and Rostislav[2], do 
not behave in accordance with your belief that committers are supposed 
to read -cvslog. How sure are you that your belief reflects what the 
project actually expects?


I proposed my wording above.  What wording describing -cvslog, which 
corrects the incorrect information and reflects what your colleagues 
tell you about how they use the list, would you accept?



I believe the difference could be considered common sense.
As I said in the thread about ffmpeg-devel[3], Your sense of what is 
common might be biased by how much you know. I am here to tell you that 
the paragraphs in this patch are not at all "common sense". New 
contributors need to have them said out loud.

[1] http://ffmpeg.org/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2017-November/221152.html
[2] http://ffmpeg.org/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2017-November/221155.html
[3] http://ffmpeg.org/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2017-November/221199.html

My goal here is to fix the bug in ffmpeg.org/developer.html, in the 
section which describes the -cvslog mailing list. I'll make the patch. 
Just tell me what wording will pass review.


--
--Jim DeLaHunt, j...@jdlh.com http://blog.jdlh.com/ (http://jdlh.com/)
  multilingual websites consultant

  355-1027 Davie St, Vancouver BC V6E 4L2, Canada
 Canada mobile +1-604-376-8953

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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Accurately describing ffmpeg-cvslog list [was: Re: [PATCH] Refactor Developer Docs, update dev list section (v2)]

[Lou Logan]

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017, at 03:20 PM, Mark Thompson wrote:
>
> If the intent is that -devel should always be used for replies, can you
> set a reply-to header on -cvslog pointing to -devel?

Done, thanks. Should have done that years ago. Didn't really think about
the cvslog situation much until this discussion.
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Accurately describing ffmpeg-cvslog list [was: Re: [PATCH] Refactor Developer Docs, update dev list section (v2)]

[Mark Thompson]

On 28/11/17 00:12, Lou Logan wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 26, 2017, at 12:57 PM, Jim DeLaHunt wrote:
>> I'll observe that we have already heard other opinions:
>>
>>   * Paul[2]: "Not at all. To be a contributor, it is not needed to
>> subscribe to [ffmpeg-cvslog] list."
>>   * Timo[3]: "Usually if a discussion comes up the mail from cvslog is
>> replied to on [ffmpeg-devel] list, so no actual discussion happens
>> on the automatic cvslog list."
> 
> ffmpeg-cvslog should only be a log and not a place for discussion.
> ffmpeg-devel should be the only mailing list where development
> discussions occur.
> 
> Discussing a commit that was not reviewed should also occur at
> ffmpeg-devel. Currently there is little discussion in ffmpeg-cvslog
> (excluding discussions also directed to ffmpeg-devel), and I'm not sure
> how many patch authors actually read or see ffmpeg-cvslog only replies.
> 
> Having no conversation in ffmpeg-cvslog would mean fewer pending
> messages in the infiniqueue for me to regularly deal with.
> 
> Developers, contributors, maintainers, and/or committers should not need
> to subscribe to ffmpeg-cvslog to participate.

I do use -cvslog, though generally I try to reply to -devel unless the 
conversation is already on -cvslog.

If the intent is that -devel should always be used for replies, can you set a 
reply-to header on -cvslog pointing to -devel?

- Mark
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Accurately describing ffmpeg-cvslog list [was: Re: [PATCH] Refactor Developer Docs, update dev list section (v2)]

[Lou Logan]

On Sun, Nov 26, 2017, at 12:57 PM, Jim DeLaHunt wrote:
> I'll observe that we have already heard other opinions:
> 
>   * Paul[2]: "Not at all. To be a contributor, it is not needed to
> subscribe to [ffmpeg-cvslog] list."
>   * Timo[3]: "Usually if a discussion comes up the mail from cvslog is
> replied to on [ffmpeg-devel] list, so no actual discussion happens
> on the automatic cvslog list."

ffmpeg-cvslog should only be a log and not a place for discussion.
ffmpeg-devel should be the only mailing list where development
discussions occur.

Discussing a commit that was not reviewed should also occur at
ffmpeg-devel. Currently there is little discussion in ffmpeg-cvslog
(excluding discussions also directed to ffmpeg-devel), and I'm not sure
how many patch authors actually read or see ffmpeg-cvslog only replies.

Having no conversation in ffmpeg-cvslog would mean fewer pending
messages in the infiniqueue for me to regularly deal with.

Developers, contributors, maintainers, and/or committers should not need
to subscribe to ffmpeg-cvslog to participate.
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Accurately describing ffmpeg-cvslog list [was: Re: [PATCH] Refactor Developer Docs, update dev list section (v2)]

[Rostislav Pehlivanov]

On 27 November 2017 at 23:05, Ronald S. Bultje  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 6:03 PM, Carl Eugen Hoyos 
> wrote:
>
> > 2017-11-26 22:57 GMT+01:00 Jim DeLaHunt :
> > > On 2017-11-26 03:42, Carl Eugen Hoyos wrote:
> > >
> > >> 2017-11-26 9:31 GMT+01:00 Jim DeLaHunt :
> > >> [...]
> > >>>
> > >>> +
> > >>>   @subheading Subscribe to the ffmpeg-cvslog mailing list.
> > >>> -It is important to do this as the diffs of all commits are sent
> there
> > >>> and
> > >>> -reviewed by all the other developers. Bugs and possible improvements
> > or
> > >>> -general questions regarding commits are discussed there. We expect
> you
> > >>> to
> > >>> -react if problems with your code are uncovered.
> > >>> +Diffs of all commits are sent to the
> > >>> +@uref{https://lists.ffmpeg.org/mailman/listinfo/ffmpeg-cvslog,
> > >>> ffmpeg-cvslog}
> > >>> +mailing list. Some developers read this list to review all code base
> > >>> changes
> > >>> +from all sources. Subscribing to this list is not mandatory, if
> > >>> +all you want to do is submit a patch here and there.
> > >>
> > >> I am (still) against this change.
> > >
> > >
> > > OK, what specifically are you against?  More important, what are you in
> > > favour of?
> >
> > I have no issue with the current text.
> >
> > If you believe that it is unclear that there is a difference between an
> > occasional contributor (who most likely would not read -devel nor
> > -cvslog) and a committer (who is supposed to read -cvslog), then
> > maybe a patch is useful.
>
>
> FYI I'm a committer and I do not read -cvslog.
>
> Ronald
> ___
> ffmpeg-devel mailing list
> ffmpeg-devel@ffmpeg.org
> http://ffmpeg.org/mailman/listinfo/ffmpeg-devel
>

Yeah, never touched cvslog either.
If someone has comments to a commit which was pushed and doesn't use IRC
then they should send an email to this ML. Or better yet use IRC.
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Accurately describing ffmpeg-cvslog list [was: Re: [PATCH] Refactor Developer Docs, update dev list section (v2)]

[Ronald S. Bultje]

Hi,

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 6:03 PM, Carl Eugen Hoyos 
wrote:

> 2017-11-26 22:57 GMT+01:00 Jim DeLaHunt :
> > On 2017-11-26 03:42, Carl Eugen Hoyos wrote:
> >
> >> 2017-11-26 9:31 GMT+01:00 Jim DeLaHunt :
> >> [...]
> >>>
> >>> +
> >>>   @subheading Subscribe to the ffmpeg-cvslog mailing list.
> >>> -It is important to do this as the diffs of all commits are sent there
> >>> and
> >>> -reviewed by all the other developers. Bugs and possible improvements
> or
> >>> -general questions regarding commits are discussed there. We expect you
> >>> to
> >>> -react if problems with your code are uncovered.
> >>> +Diffs of all commits are sent to the
> >>> +@uref{https://lists.ffmpeg.org/mailman/listinfo/ffmpeg-cvslog,
> >>> ffmpeg-cvslog}
> >>> +mailing list. Some developers read this list to review all code base
> >>> changes
> >>> +from all sources. Subscribing to this list is not mandatory, if
> >>> +all you want to do is submit a patch here and there.
> >>
> >> I am (still) against this change.
> >
> >
> > OK, what specifically are you against?  More important, what are you in
> > favour of?
>
> I have no issue with the current text.
>
> If you believe that it is unclear that there is a difference between an
> occasional contributor (who most likely would not read -devel nor
> -cvslog) and a committer (who is supposed to read -cvslog), then
> maybe a patch is useful.


FYI I'm a committer and I do not read -cvslog.

Ronald
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Accurately describing ffmpeg-cvslog list [was: Re: [PATCH] Refactor Developer Docs, update dev list section (v2)]

[Carl Eugen Hoyos]

2017-11-26 22:57 GMT+01:00 Jim DeLaHunt :
> On 2017-11-26 03:42, Carl Eugen Hoyos wrote:
>
>> 2017-11-26 9:31 GMT+01:00 Jim DeLaHunt :
>> [...]
>>>
>>> +
>>>   @subheading Subscribe to the ffmpeg-cvslog mailing list.
>>> -It is important to do this as the diffs of all commits are sent there
>>> and
>>> -reviewed by all the other developers. Bugs and possible improvements or
>>> -general questions regarding commits are discussed there. We expect you
>>> to
>>> -react if problems with your code are uncovered.
>>> +Diffs of all commits are sent to the
>>> +@uref{https://lists.ffmpeg.org/mailman/listinfo/ffmpeg-cvslog,
>>> ffmpeg-cvslog}
>>> +mailing list. Some developers read this list to review all code base
>>> changes
>>> +from all sources. Subscribing to this list is not mandatory, if
>>> +all you want to do is submit a patch here and there.
>>
>> I am (still) against this change.
>
>
> OK, what specifically are you against?  More important, what are you in
> favour of?

I have no issue with the current text.

If you believe that it is unclear that there is a difference between an
occasional contributor (who most likely would not read -devel nor
-cvslog) and a committer (who is supposed to read -cvslog), then
maybe a patch is useful.

I believe the difference could be considered common sense.

Carl Eugen
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