Re: [Finale] OT: Christo's The Gates, NYC Central Park
Hmm, not around here. Generally girls still in high school and younger are mademoiselle, along with any woman you are hitting on, otherwise they are all madame. But your point stands. Christopher On Feb 22, 2005, at 7:59 PM, HERMAN GERSTEN wrote: I was just being polite, Christopher. That's all. Don't the French use mademoiselle the same way? On Feb 22, 2005, at 3:34 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: Umm, just wondering, but what makes you think Crystal is young? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Christo's The Gates, NYC Central Park
On Feb 22, 2005, at 11:24 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: I see no one in this discussion making any attempt whatsoever to dissuade you or Crystal or anyone else from their personal esthetic reactions to art -- all the disputation has been entirely on non- esthetic issues. And some of the non-esthetic issues are extremely interesting! For example, the fact that the artist manages to pay for the ENTIRE humongous work himself fascinates me. What a fantastic example for other artists! And the nature of the installation itself - quite a bit more subtle than huge photos of naked crowds, can't ignore it very easily just the same, huge reactions from everyone either hating it or loving it, discussions about the nature of art and what this particular work means... Hold on a minute, I just realised something. Christo - Crystal, it's all a little too convenient, isn't it? She(he) comes innocently into our little list, seeding discussions and increasing the publicity of the work they must be the same person! Has anyone ever seen them both in the same room at the same time? OK, Christo or Crystal or whatever you want to call yourself, we're on to you! 8-)=) (enormous toothy grin) Christopher (Wait a minute Christo/Christopher, has anyone ever seen ME in the same room with him? I could be him, too! Or for that matter, I could even be Crystal. Man, is my wife going to be upset.) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Christo's The Gates, NYC Central Park
At 06:29 AM 2/23/05 -0500, Christopher Smith wrote: Or for that matter, I could even be Crystal. Man, is my wife going to be upset. Or not. :) Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Christo's The Gates, NYC Central Park
At 8:04 PM -0500 2/21/05, David W. Fenton wrote: On 21 Feb 2005 at 19:33, Crystal Premo wrote: I'm sorry, but I take offense to being called illogical because you don't agree with my reaction to an artistic display. It's not your esthetic reaction that's being criticized, but your truly illogical point about school funding. The money spent here would not exist to *be* spent were there no public art installation to generate the revenue in sales that supported its creation. Certainly true. Just as the millions of dollars raised by politicians COULD be spent more productively on health care instead of on their own egos, but again that money would not be raised at all except for the cost of electioneering, and so would not be available for ANY other use. But, David, this profound illogic may actually be hardwired into our brains, at least judging by the frequency it gets trotted out by people who THINK they are being logical. The false dichotomy: spend it on this or spend it on that, but of course don't even admit that you can spend it on both! Oliver North, famous for subverting the U.S. government and running a guns program from inside the White House, raised over $20 million to feed his ego and desire to take public office, almost all of it from outside the state of Virginia, but the money he spent on his unsuccessful bid was spent here in Virginia and in D.C. The arguments against the space program, which is the ONLY way we can eventually ensure the survival of the human race, are similar. But where do these people think that money actually goes? It doesn't disappear into some black hole. It is used to purchase things and to pay people's salaries. Every penny is immediately returned to the economy to create jobs, which in turn create more jobs, increase the tax base (which is where educational funding comes from in this country), support contractors and subcontractors and their employees' families. I don't consider economics a real science, since it can only generate opinions and never predict outcomes accurately, but common sense says that every dollar spent in ANY public or private endeavor circulates through the economy and benefits both the economy and the citizens who make up that economy. Including the money raised for and spent on the infamous Gates. 'Nuff said. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Christo's The Gates, NYC Central Park
On Tuesday, February 22, 2005, at 10:00 AM, Johannes Gebauer wrote: I think the Martians would probably be impressed, actually. (By the gates, not by the schools.) I wished I was in New York to be able to see it. When Christo did the Reichstag in Berlin I missed it, and everyone who was there said it was amazing. The photographer Spencer Tunick staged a shoot in Montreal a few years ago. His specialty at the time was shooting hordes of naked people. I would have participated if I had been available, and I followed the story with fascination. 2000 volunteers showed up at 6:00 am on a chilly Sunday to pose, draped across the steps of Place des Arts. His photographs are at once chilling, warming, shocking, gorgeous, barely erotic (if at all) and anything but ignorable. I was amazed at my own reactions to his various works, all of which have the people's faces not looking toward the camera, so we are not as aware of their individuality or personalities. Yet the texture of so much naked human flesh in an otherwise deserted urban setting got me to thinking in so many different ways, I still can't get over it. Some people saw the Holocaust, some saw a huge, happy orgy, some saw Armageddon, some saw the Garden of Eden, some saw a nuclear aftermath, some saw pornography, and some just saw texture divorced from the human materials. I wish I could see the Christo installation. There's something about a large canvas that's striking to me. Big painting, big sculpture, big orchestra, all of it. My wife tells me it's a guy thing. 8-) Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Christo's The Gates, NYC Central Park
I may not totally agree, but I don't think I said anything on goverment funding, did I? Actually, fact is that opera without some kind of external funding is simply not possible (at least not Grand Opera of any kind). Whether this should be the government or not is certainly another question, and one which I guess will be answered differently in Europe and the US. But Christo is no different in this sense from any non-government-funded opera company. He has sponsors, doesn't he? So does opera. Johannes Simon Troup wrote: I wasn't. I think opera should be self sustaining and certainly not be funded by government. Funding a show with Pavarottis over inflated invoice in it is basically lining his pockets with hard earned income tax! This isn't an attack on opera, I think the same about football and folk dancing. Don't know what this has to do with Christo as he pays his own way, he can do what he likes with it. He could spend his cash on fine art that he keeps in a locked bank vault and then sit on the investment. As it is he beautifies places with it - and if you don't like it you get your park back or your building unwrapped pretty quickly anyway. The people that object are usually sound like they find it difficult to allow others to enjoy themselves if they don't share their own viewpoint. -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Christo's The Gates, NYC Central Park
Sorry, Dennis (and by extension, Crystal); much as I'd really love tohave this be anopportunity to agree with you, my documented research shows that the term'young' will legally define anyone aged 47 or younger until this coming Saturday. The bar, on that day, will then be raised to 48 and younger. Furthermore, I fully intend to copyright the term 'young' and will allot its usage only by those paying a hefty rental fee. And I for one, intend not to pass the first bar I find, raised or no. Sincerely, Schirmer Peters, Attorneys-at-Law Les MarsdenFounding Music Director and Conductor, The Mariposa Symphony OrchestraMusic and Mariposa? Ah, Paradise!!! http://arts-mariposa.org/symphony.htmlhttp://www.sierratel.com/mcf/nprc/mso.htm - Original Message - From: Dennis Bathory-Kitsz To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] OT: Christo's The Gates, NYC Central Park At 03:34 PM 2/22/05 -0500, you wrote:what is the cutoff age for "young" these days?55 years 11 months 9 days. So I'm still young until tomorrow.D___Finale mailing listFinale@shsu.eduhttp://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] OT: Christo's The Gates, NYC Central Park
On 23 Feb 2005 at 14:10, Keith Helgesen wrote: I really owe Crystal a huge apology! It was my original reference to The Emperors Clothes and *my* perception of the Art as being like traffic diversion banners- to which Crystal gave qualified agreement! . . . Not one person has disputed her esthetic reaction. . . . Since then that lovely lady has been harangued, berated and, for some reason, required to defend her view! . . . What she's been taken task for is the illogical statement that the money for The Gates could have been spent on schools. It patently could not, as without the art installation, there would be no money generated to be paid to the schools. . . . I personally thought it arty-farty rubbish! That's MY opinion. You won't change it. If you wish to waste time trying- go for it! I see no one in this discussion making any attempt whatsoever to dissuade you or Crystal or anyone else from their personal esthetic reactions to art -- all the disputation has been entirely on non- esthetic issues. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Christo's The Gates, NYC Central Park
Sorry. The bar has already been raised to 54. Crystal Premo [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Mariposa Symphony Orchestra [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: finale@shsu.edu To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] OT: Christo's The Gates, NYC Central Park Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 20:16:04 -0800 Sorry, Dennis (and by extension, Crystal); much as I'd really love to have this be an opportunity to agree with you, my documented research shows that the term 'young' will legally define anyone aged 47 or younger until this coming Saturday. The bar, on that day, will then be raised to 48 and younger. Furthermore, I fully intend to copyright the term 'young' and will allot its usage only by those paying a hefty rental fee. And I for one, intend not to pass the first bar I find, raised or no. Sincerely, Schirmer Peters, Attorneys-at-Law Les Marsden Founding Music Director and Conductor, The Mariposa Symphony Orchestra Music and Mariposa? Ah, Paradise!!! http://arts-mariposa.org/symphony.html http://www.sierratel.com/mcf/nprc/mso.htm - Original Message - From: Dennis Bathory-Kitsz To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] OT: Christo's The Gates, NYC Central Park At 03:34 PM 2/22/05 -0500, you wrote: what is the cutoff age for young these days? 55 years 11 months 9 days. So I'm still young until tomorrow. D ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] OT: Christo's The Gates, NYC Central Park
My strongest feeling, though, was that they could have built a couple of schools in New York for the same money and created something of both beauty and lasting value. We have a similar argument in the UK for stopping the funding of all opera. Hurrah! -- Simon Troup Digital Music Art - Finale IRC channel server: irc.chatspike.net port: 6667 channel: #Finale - ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Christo's The Gates, NYC Central Park
My strongest feeling, though, was that they could have built a couple of schools in New York for the same money and created something of both beauty and lasting value. I believe that there is an error in this line of thinking. There is no the same money. If this privately-funded project did not exist, the funds collected for it would not have gone to building schools. Christo and Jeanne-Claude fund their projects largely by selling original artwork, prints, books, and other objects based upon their project. It's a self-sustaining, circular funding arrangement that resembles entertainment-industry marketing much more than any form of philanthropy or public works. The serious issue of school funding -- and for all of us on this list, music education funding -- has to be put in the context of the priorities set by the state for its budget and, to a much smaller extent, for private philanthropy (which is intimately related to taxation). In _this_ context, we are really talking about the same money, and music education ultimately does stand in direct competition with guns, butter, highways, pensions, healthcare, and protecting the environment. Daniel Wolf ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Subject: Re: [Finale] OT: Christo's The Gates, NYC Central Park
Subject: Re: [Finale] OT: Christo's The Gates, NYC Central Park Thought this site was funny...done in good spirit of course: http://www.smilinggoat.com/crackers.html and another variation for your viewing pleasure: http://www.not-rocket-science.com/gates.htm -Steve S, NYC ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Christo's The Gates, NYC Central Park
I strongly believe that we needs the arts, but let's look at this from a different vantage point. What would, say, Martians think if were watching us from space and observing us as one people with single set of resources, and seeing the dramatic disparity between The Gates and a middle school in the Bronx that has no resources at all: no books, no lockers, nothing they need. Crystal Premo [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Daniel Wolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: finale@shsu.edu To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] OT: Christo's The Gates, NYC Central Park Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 17:43:47 +0100 My strongest feeling, though, was that they could have built a couple of schools in New York for the same money and created something of both beauty and lasting value. I believe that there is an error in this line of thinking. There is no the same money. If this privately-funded project did not exist, the funds collected for it would not have gone to building schools. Christo and Jeanne-Claude fund their projects largely by selling original artwork, prints, books, and other objects based upon their project. It's a self-sustaining, circular funding arrangement that resembles entertainment-industry marketing much more than any form of philanthropy or public works. The serious issue of school funding -- and for all of us on this list, music education funding -- has to be put in the context of the priorities set by the state for its budget and, to a much smaller extent, for private philanthropy (which is intimately related to taxation). In _this_ context, we are really talking about the same money, and music education ultimately does stand in direct competition with guns, butter, highways, pensions, healthcare, and protecting the environment. Daniel Wolf ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Christo's The Gates, NYC Central Park
This is illogical, Crystal. Having art in the park has nothing at all to do with the condition of our schools. We can have both, one or the other or neither. They are NOT interdependent. Using your premise, there ought not to be any space exploration because our health care system is wanting. Herman On Feb 21, 2005, at 4:16 PM, Crystal Premo wrote: I strongly believe that we needs the arts, but let's look at this from a different vantage point. What would, say, Martians think if were watching us from space and observing us as one people with single set of resources, and seeing the dramatic disparity between The Gates and a middle school in the Bronx that has no resources at all: no books, no lockers, nothing they need. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Christo's The Gates, NYC Central Park
Okay, everybody calm down. It was my reaction to the artistic display. My reaction is as legitimate as yours, so just quit spitting fire at me. Crystal Premo [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: HERMAN GERSTEN [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: finale@shsu.edu To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] OT: Christo's The Gates, NYC Central Park Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 16:28:51 -0500 This is illogical, Crystal. Having art in the park has nothing at all to do with the condition of our schools. We can have both, one or the other or neither. They are NOT interdependent. Using your premise, there ought not to be any space exploration because our health care system is wanting. Herman On Feb 21, 2005, at 4:16 PM, Crystal Premo wrote: I strongly believe that we needs the arts, but let's look at this from a different vantage point. What would, say, Martians think if were watching us from space and observing us as one people with single set of resources, and seeing the dramatic disparity between The Gates and a middle school in the Bronx that has no resources at all: no books, no lockers, nothing they need. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] OT: Christo's The Gates, NYC Central Park
I know this is completely off-topic, not even tangential, but I strolled through Central Park yesterday and took about 100 pictures. Most of them are up at: http://www.dfenton.com/Gates/ This is not the place for a discussion of the artistic esthetics, so if you have comment, email me directly, rather than posting to the list. But I thought others who won't be able to get to NYC to see The Gates in person might enjoy the pictures. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Christo's The Gates, NYC Central Park
David W. Fenton wrote: I know this is completely off-topic, not even tangential, but I strolled through Central Park yesterday and took about 100 pictures. Most of them are up at: http://www.dfenton.com/Gates/ This is not the place for a discussion of the artistic esthetics, so if you have comment, email me directly, rather than posting to the list. But I thought others who won't be able to get to NYC to see The Gates in person might enjoy the pictures. Not a fan of Christo by any means, but the park looks nice. Haven't been to NYC sine ... 1978? cd ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Christo's The Gates, NYC Central Park
Nice pictures David..thank you for sharing them! I am a big fan of Cristo and Jeanne-Claude...heard an interview on the radio and they have a great outlook on things in my opinion! Thought this site was funny...done in good spirit of course: http://www.smilinggoat.com/crackers.html -K I know this is completely off-topic, not even tangential, but I strolled through Central Park yesterday and took about 100 pictures. Most of them are up at: http://www.dfenton.com/Gates/ This is not the place for a discussion of the artistic esthetics, so if you have comment, email me directly, rather than posting to the list. But I thought others who won't be able to get to NYC to see The Gates in person might enjoy the pictures. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Christo's The Gates, NYC Central Park
Really very, very nice, David. I was there yesterday in the late afternoon shooting with frozen fingers. But it was worth it. Herman On Feb 20, 2005, at 5:02 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: http://www.dfenton.com/Gates/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] OT: Christo's The Gates, NYC Central Park
At the risk of appearing a real Philistine, are these a touch of the Emperors New Clothes, and really traffic diversion banners? However David, the photos are great! Cheers Keith in Oz Keith Helgesen. Director of Music, Canberra City Band. Ph: (02) 62910787. Band Mob. 0436-620587 Private Mob 0417-042171 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Carl Dershem Sent: Monday, 21 February 2005 9:18 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] OT: Christo's The Gates, NYC Central Park David W. Fenton wrote: I know this is completely off-topic, not even tangential, but I strolled through Central Park yesterday and took about 100 pictures. Most of them are up at: http://www.dfenton.com/Gates/ This is not the place for a discussion of the artistic esthetics, so if you have comment, email me directly, rather than posting to the list. But I thought others who won't be able to get to NYC to see The Gates in person might enjoy the pictures. Not a fan of Christo by any means, but the park looks nice. Haven't been to NYC sine ... 1978? cd ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.1.0 - Release Date: 18/02/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.1.0 - Release Date: 18/02/2005 ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Christo's The Gates, NYC Central Park
On 20 Feb 2005 at 19:21, Raymond Horton wrote: Great pictures, David! What did you think of it? Well, I was predisposed to liking it, as I've always liked the Christo concepts (though I've never seen one in person; my favorites are the wrapped island and the fences). However, having seen pictures in various places, it didn't look to me like it was going to be as nice as the conceptual drawings had made it look. But 10 minutes into the park, and I completely changed my mind -- walking underneath them and among them, watching how the sun changed the color, how they moved in the breeze, how they inscribed shapes and curves in among the trees, I quickly came to like the whole thing a lot. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] OT: Christo's The Gates, NYC Central Park
I was fortunate enough to see it first hand. I live right by the SW entrance to the park. I saw the pretty changing colors and was particularly appreciative of one place where I stood in shadow and the nearest gates were lit up with sun. My strongest feeling, though, was that they could have built a couple of schools in New York for the same money and created something of both beauty and lasting value. I also had a sense of standing there with the sun on my face in the middle of all these orange gates that are set up like a bunch of giant toys and at the same time being aware of all the suffering that goes on, both far and near, from a simple lack of commitment to solving problems like hunger. It was an interesting experience. Perhaps not what Cristo had intended, but who knows? Crystal Premo [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: David W. Fenton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], finale@shsu.edu To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: RE: [Finale] OT: Christo's The Gates, NYC Central Park Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 22:30:21 -0500 On 20 Feb 2005 at 19:37, Crystal Premo wrote: I must confess that I used almost the exact words. It didn't uplift me in any way. This kind of art is not really something you can appreciate in pictures -- it's really only something you can get except by walking through it. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
