[Finale] OT Violin fingering

2004-08-16 Thread Ken Moore
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] John Howell
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
KCM:
1) Why are string fingerings taught by positions?  does it result in the
pupil learning to choose good fingerings quickly, or is it just the
easiest way to teach?

JH:
Much in string playing (and not just in string playing!) is grounded 
in tradition, and stays around even when the original reasons no 
longer apply.  I can't cite authority for this, but I do suspect that 
it relates to the fact that 18th century violinists not only did not 
use shoulder pads, but did not use chin rests either.  (Just for 
comparison, my father, born in 1907, always used a chin rest but 
never used a shoulder pad, while I have never played without a pad!) 
The iconography shows a pretty uniform loose instrument position, 
with the instrument resting on the collar bone or even a bit lower, 
but not gripped or held fast.  That means shifting up to higher 
positions was easy, since the left hand would be pressing the 
instrument against the collar bone or neck, but shifting down to 
lower positions was difficult, since the left hand would be pulling 
the instrument away from the body.  Modern teachers of historical 
playing techniques use the chin (actually the jaw) to BRIEFLY grip 
the instrument on downshifts to solve this problem, and this makes 
sense of the scale manuals (I'm most familiar with Carl Flesch) which 
have 3-octave scales crawling up the E string with small shifts, but 
using wide leaps in coming down the E string.  (18th century 
technique also means that a modern intense vibrato was impossible. 
It was not just a matter of taste and fashion, but a physical 
impossibility without a firm grip on the instrument.  And vibrato was 
found in tables of ornaments, as a kind of trill.)

Yes, I have the Spohr Violin Method, c. 1845. (in  English translation,
c. 1880), describing it as such, and I have been told that the Joachim
one, 1910, says much the same.  Roger Norrington claims that continuous
vibrato was first used by Kreisler, but I suspect that he may just have
been an early and famous user of it.

So, 1st position is a kind of home base, and 3rd position is a stable 
position because the wrist is against the instrument's body. 
Learning 5th position give a stable range up to F on the E string, 
which takes care of all but the most virtuosic music of the time. 
This sets up a mindset toward using, and teaching, the odd positions 
rather than both odd and even positions.  The Sevcik etudes are 
definitely locked into individual positions.  And even in a stable 
position it's easy enough to stretch the 4th finger up or extend the 
1st finger back when needed, as cellists well know.

2) How were you taught and how do you choose fingerings now?

I started out learning traditional technique, with my father as my 
teacher.  However, in the 1940s he took string pedagogy classes at 
Teachers College, Columbia University, with George Bornoff.  Bornoff 
took a definitely non-traditional approach to string technique and 
string teaching, and my brother and I took private lessons with him 
as a demonstration to my father (and other skeptical class members) 
of the effectiveness of those non-traditional methods.  Bornoff's 
goal was to open up the entire fingerboard instead of locking the 
student into set positions, allowing fingerings and alternate 
fingerings that were chosen for their sound and phrasing.  He 
approached this goal, on the basic level, with one-finger scales up 
the fingerboard on single strings.  Later (but not all that much 
later!) this became double-stop and artificial harmonic scales up the 
fingerboard.   When I play above 3rd position, I quite literally do 
not know what position I am in, and do not care.  That information 
has become irrelevant, while the actual sound that is produced is 
paramount.  And I often spend as much time in 2nd position as in 1st 
or 3rd, because the fingering patterns are better in many passages.

This all sounds very convincing to me.  How much does what you do now
differ from what good players achieve through conventional teaching? The
Bornoff teaching could be a different (possibly faster) route to a
similar destination.

I choose fingerings that, of course, work in the passages in 
question, but beyond that give me the musical sounds I decide are 
appropriate to the music.  This is most important in solo music, of 
course, and has always been in the bag of tricks of an artist 
performer, but it can also be used in ensemble music.  A passage that 
stays on the G string has an intensity that is missing when the same 
passage is played by crossing over to the D and A strings, for 
example, and artistic players have always known that.

I love that rich sound at four measures before rehearsal 13 in Elgar's
Introduction and Allegro.  The whole work shows his understanding of the
violin family, including the double bass at the three measures before
20, where a relatively easy part sounds much 

[Finale] OT Violin fingering [was Enharmonic ties]

2004-08-12 Thread Ken Moore
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED]
John Howell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Those of us who are NOT stuck in odd numbered 
positions are constantly fingering on the fly, and when we find the 
most comfortable fingerings we might even write them in!  But I was 
trained not to think in positions but to use the entire fingerboard 
to enhance the sound by making certain fingering choices.  It makes 
for some fun experimenting.

I find that very interesting, for several reasons.

1) Why are string fingerings taught by positions?  does it result in the
pupil learning to choose good fingerings quickly, or is it just the
easiest way to teach?

2) How were you taught and how do you choose fingerings now?

3) I recall very little emphasis on positions when I was learning the
'cello and I was shifting from about the second lesson.  I am self
taught on the double bass and don't even know what position I am in most
of the time.  Players with a better technique than me seem to shift more
than I do.

-- 
Ken Moore
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Web site: http://www.mooremusic.org.uk/
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Re: [Finale] OT Violin fingering [was Enharmonic ties]

2004-08-12 Thread Owain Sutton

1) Why are string fingerings taught by positions?  does it result in the
pupil learning to choose good fingerings quickly, or is it just the
easiest way to teach?
There's a necessary logic to it.  The first finger *has* to be located 
in one of a finite number of locations (assuming we're dealing with 
regular chromatic notes ;) ).  There would be two options - number them 
1-12 through the first octave, or, as is done, number them through a scale.

What tends to happen is that (beyond 1st position), the first that 
players become familiar with is third, and then fifth.  Partly this is 
because these are the positions needed for the first 2 and 3 octave 
scales a player will learn.  Partly I suspect it's through pedagogical 
habit.  A *good* teacher will make sure that all the positions are dealt 
with through studies etc.  Often this doesn't happen, so the muscle 
memory for these positions isn't developed as well, meaning that players 
find these positions awkward, meaning they avoid them further.


2) How were you taught and how do you choose fingerings now?
I was taught the 1st-3rd-5th route, as I described.  Only much later was 
a given a thorough understanding of left-hand technique, and shown how 
to properly shift and how to properly train the hand in each position. 
Knowledge of good shifting technique makes choosing good fingering much 
easier.

3) I recall very little emphasis on positions when I was learning the
'cello and I was shifting from about the second lesson.  I am self
taught on the double bass and don't even know what position I am in most
of the time.  Players with a better technique than me seem to shift more
than I do.
AFAIK, the wider gaps on the larger instruments make 'positions' less 
relevant, and shifting more frequent.
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