Re: [Fis] Emerging Synthesis?
Dear Gordana, Pedro, and colleagues, That would be unfortunate because a reduction of the information-theoretical approach to physics unnecessarily sacrifices explanatory power. (As would by the way, a reduction to biology or any other substantive theory.) At issue is --as you correctly note-- the autopoiesis model itself which allows for coordination at different systems level. The formalisms allow us to move from one level to another heuristically, and thus to specify if necessary counter-intuitively. For example, the market can be considered as a social coordination system with its own dynamics. The coordination with other coordination mechanisms by various forms of couplings can also be studied using the information-theoretical approach because the expected information content of a distribution is yet content-free. The specification of a system of reference provides the (Shannon-type) information with meaning. For example, when H is multiplied with the Boltzmann constant, the entropy is expressed in Joule/Kelvin and physics is the system of reference. However, this is a special case. Joule and degrees have no clear meaning in the case of the operation of the market as a coordination mechanism. Best wishes, Loet _ Loet Leydesdorff Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR), Kloveniersburgwal 48, 1012 CX Amsterdam. Tel.: +31-20- 525 6598; fax: +31-20- 525 3681 mailto:l...@leydesdorff.net l...@leydesdorff.net ; http://www.leydesdorff.net/ http://www.leydesdorff.net/ _ From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Pedro C. Marijuan Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 2:46 PM To: fis Subject: Re: [Fis] Emerging Synthesis? Dear Gordana and Loet, This is what the editors of the book literally say: The third main idea is that Coordination Dynamics deals with informational quantities that transcend the medium through which the parts communicate. Evidence shows that things may be coupled by mechanical forces, by light, by sound, by smell, by touch and by intention. In Coordination Dynamics, binding or coupling is mediated by information, not --or not only-- by conventional forces. Such information may not only be of a material but also of a structural or topological nature. It may cause qualitative changes in the dynamics of the coordinating parts and new states to emerge. Hence, bound coordinative states in Coordination Dynamics are informational, and information that changes bound states is meaningful to the system. (Preface, p. IX) I agree with Gordana that it may support a pan-physicalist approach to information, and vice versa, a pan-informationalist approach to physics too. Besides, the ongoing conceptualization of meaning looks rather meager. From my view, another important objection to the 8 main ideas is the absence of any reference to self-production (very different from self-organization!); the life-cycle notion is also missing... Linking with the discussion that Michel started weeks ago, rather than situating a similar recollection of main ideas about the term information, it could be more interesting putting into question what it means being informational. Say, the adjective as more holistic than the name. The whole process around the message (generation needs, coding, emission, transmission, reception, decoding, interpretation, action...) becomes the natural universe of information science, rather than the focus on any single conceptual item (wherever we may be willing to situate information). Curiously, informational in English in Spanish does not exist (only informative, I think, but it means something completely different). What informational would be indicating, roughly, is that an entity self-constructs itself through the coupling of inner and environmental signals... as happens with cells, organisms, enterprises, etc. best regards Pedro 3. Thereafter, the coordination dynamics deals with informational quantities that transcend the medium through which the parts communicate. The binding or coupling is mediated by information and not by conventional forces (or not only) But isn't that exchange of information carrier the way physical forces conventionally are - exchange forces? Particles that are exchanged in particle physics are information carriers (or messages if one so will). Best regards, Gordana Dear Gordana, I understood this as Shannon-type information which is dimensionless (bits) and merely dependent on changes in the distributions. The carriers in different systems (to be coordinated) can in this case be substantially different, but the distributions may communicate in terms of the transmission (etc.). Best wishes, Loet ___ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
Re: [Fis] Emerging Synthesis?
Dear Loet, I agree with you. The goal is not to reduce everything to physics and to stay at elementary particle level. But the good thing is to be able to go down to elementary particle level with the same principle. How to build up understanding of the whole architecture of existing things, physical objects (including biological ones), minds, societies - is a question of complex systems and those all seem to be organized via exchange of information. Best regards, Gordana From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Loet Leydesdorff Sent: den 16 januari 2009 19:47 To: 'Pedro C. Marijuan'; 'fis' Subject: Re: [Fis] Emerging Synthesis? Dear Gordana, Pedro, and colleagues, That would be unfortunate because a reduction of the information-theoretical approach to physics unnecessarily sacrifices explanatory power. (As would by the way, a reduction to biology or any other substantive theory.) At issue is --as you correctly note-- the autopoiesis model itself which allows for coordination at different systems level. The formalisms allow us to move from one level to another heuristically, and thus to specify if necessary counter-intuitively. For example, the market can be considered as a social coordination system with its own dynamics. The coordination with other coordination mechanisms by various forms of couplings can also be studied using the information-theoretical approach because the expected information content of a distribution is yet content-free. The specification of a system of reference provides the (Shannon-type) information with meaning. For example, when H is multiplied with the Boltzmann constant, the entropy is expressed in Joule/Kelvin and physics is the system of reference. However, this is a special case. Joule and degrees have no clear meaning in the case of the operation of the market as a coordination mechanism. Best wishes, Loet Loet Leydesdorff Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR), Kloveniersburgwal 48, 1012 CX Amsterdam. Tel.: +31-20- 525 6598; fax: +31-20- 525 3681 l...@leydesdorff.net mailto:l...@leydesdorff.net ; http://www.leydesdorff.net/ From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Pedro C. Marijuan Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 2:46 PM To: fis Subject: Re: [Fis] Emerging Synthesis? Dear Gordana and Loet, This is what the editors of the book literally say: The third main idea is that Coordination Dynamics deals with informational quantities that transcend the medium through which the parts communicate. Evidence shows that things may be coupled by mechanical forces, by light, by sound, by smell, by touch and by intention. In Coordination Dynamics, binding or coupling is mediated by information, not --or not only-- by conventional forces. Such information may not only be of a material but also of a structural or topological nature. It may cause qualitative changes in the dynamics of the coordinating parts and new states to emerge. Hence, bound coordinative states in Coordination Dynamics are informational, and information that changes bound states is meaningful to the system. (Preface, p. IX) I agree with Gordana that it may support a pan-physicalist approach to information, and vice versa, a pan-informationalist approach to physics too. Besides, the ongoing conceptualization of meaning looks rather meager. From my view, another important objection to the 8 main ideas is the absence of any reference to self-production (very different from self-organization!); the life-cycle notion is also missing... Linking with the discussion that Michel started weeks ago, rather than situating a similar recollection of main ideas about the term information, it could be more interesting putting into question what it means being informational. Say, the adjective as more holistic than the name. The whole process around the message (generation needs, coding, emission, transmission, reception, decoding, interpretation, action...) becomes the natural universe of information science, rather than the focus on any single conceptual item (wherever we may be willing to situate information). Curiously, informational in English in Spanish does not exist (only informative, I think, but it means something completely different). What informational would be indicating, roughly, is that an entity self-constructs itself through the coupling of inner and environmental signals... as happens with cells, organisms, enterprises, etc. best regards Pedro 3. Thereafter, the coordination dynamics deals with informational quantities that transcend the medium through which the parts communicate. The binding or coupling is mediated by information and not by conventional forces (or not only) But isn't that exchange of information carrier the way physical forces conventionally are -
Re: [Fis] Emerging Synthesis?
Dear Friends,
I have been in transit between home in Switzerland and California where my
wife and I spend the winter and thus have just now looked at this emerging
exchange. It obviously requires more study, but three things jump out at me:
1.But the good thing is to be able to go down to elementary
particle level with the same principle. My Logic in Reality does exactly
that, where the principle is one of dynamic opposition which has the advantage
of avoiding what I consider questionable, namely, so-called self-organization.
2. It is fascinating, and I think important, that there seems to be a felt
need for more unification in knowledge, and such approaches as Coordination
Dynamics (and Logic in Reality??) are expressions of this.
3. Having said that, what I read about Coordination Dynamics in the postings to
date, frankly, leaves me cold. The entities involved in the exchanges of
information seem to lack reality, and Pedro quotes one to me doubtful
characteristic of this system as involving informational quantities that
transcend (emphasis mine) the medium. I worry as soon as one starts separating
things. If information is energy and has meaning, it is in a dynamic relation
to the medium.
Where is the Kaufmann-Logan information in Coordination Dynamics?
Best wishes,
Joseph
Message d'origine
De: gordana.dodig-crnko...@mdh.se
Date: 16.01.2009 20:48
À: l...@leydesdorff.netl...@leydesdorff.net, 'Pedro C.
Marijuan'pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es, fisfis@listas.unizar.es
Objet: Re: [Fis] Emerging Synthesis?
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
--
Dear Loet,
I agree with you.
The goal is not to reduce everything to physics and to stay at
elementary particle level.
But the good thing is to be able to go down to elementary
particle level with the same principle.
How to build up understanding of the whole architecture of
existing things, physical objects (including biological ones),
minds, societies – is a question of complex systems and those
all seem to be organized via exchange of information.
Best regards,
Gordana
From:
fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf
Of Loet Leydesdorff
Sent: den 16 januari 2009 19:47
To: 'Pedro C. Marijuan'; 'fis'
Subject: Re: [Fis] Emerging Synthesis?
Dear Gordana, Pedro, and colleagues,
That would be unfortunate because a reduction of the
information-theoretical approach to physics unnecessarily sacrifices
explanatory power. (As would by the way, a reduction to biology or any other
substantive theory.) At issue is --as you correctly note-- the autopoiesis
model itself which allows for coordination at different systems level. The
formalisms allow us to move from one level to another heuristically, and thus
to specify if necessary counter-intuitively.
For example, the market can be considered as a social coordination
system with its own dynamics. The coordination with other coordination
mechanisms by various forms of couplings can also be studied using the
information-theoretical approach because the expected information content of a
distribution is yet content-free. The specification of a system of reference
provides the (Shannon-type) information with meaning. For example, when H is
multiplied with the Boltzmann constant, the entropy is expressed in
Joule/Kelvin and physics is the system of reference. However, this is a special
case. Joule and degrees have no clear meaning in the case of the operation of
the market as a coordination mechanism.
Best wishes,
Loet
Loet Leydesdorff
Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR),
Kloveniersburgwal 48, 1012 CX Amsterdam.
Tel.: +31-20- 525 6598; fax: +31-20- 525 3681
l...@leydesdorff.net ; http://www.leydesdorff.net/
From:
fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf
Of Pedro C. Marijuan
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 2:46 PM
To: fis
Subject: Re: [Fis] Emerging Synthesis?
Dear Gordana and Loet,
This is what the editors of the book literally say:
The third main idea is that Coordination Dynamics deals with
informational quantities that transcend the medium through which the parts
communicate. Evidence shows that things may be coupled by mechanical forces, by
light, by sound, by smell, by touch and by intention. In Coordination Dynamics,
binding or coupling is mediated by information, not --or not only--
by conventional forces. Such information may not only be of a material but also
of a structural or topological nature. It may cause qualitative changes in the
dynamics of the coordinating parts and new states to emerge. Hence,
bound coordinative states in Coordination Dynamics are
informational, and information that changes bound states is
meaningful to the system. (Preface, p. IX)
I agree with Gordana that it may support a
