Re: [Fis] Clarifying Posting

[Rafael Capurro]

dear all,

some days ago I sent a mail in spanish to pedro, and he suggested me to 
make an english translation with... google! hm... I try to translate it 
with my brain even if there might be (surely) a lot of 
misunderstandings. so... first the original spanish sentence by sentence


ortega era un gran fenomenologo y escribia
muy bien tambien, y no era un reduccionista claro, sino que buscaba
diferenciar los fenomenos, sin crear jerarquias, yo soy yo y mis
circunstancias...

ortega y gasset was a great phenomenologist and he wrote in a wonderful 
style, he was not a redctionist but looked for phenomenological 
differences, without creating hierarchies, "I am I and my circumstances"



si, a diferencia del modo de ser de otros animales
(para decirlo en forma muy general) que estan muy condicionados por
sus circunstancias (o son 'pobres en mundo' es decir en la posibilidad
de salir o cuestionar las circunstancias y abrirse a un poder ser, que
nos permite a nosotros, construir otra realidad a la que vivimos en
una situacion determinada...


yes, there are differences between the way we humans are and the ways 
other living beings are,
(to put it in a crude way) as they are very conditioned by the 
circumtances (this is what I
meant my 'world poor') i.e. withou being able to question their 
circumstances or to open
themselves to other possibilities, build another reality/world as the 
one they belong to


bueno, por aqui va una fenomenologia de
los seres vivientes, de los cuales formamos parte, ciertamente y
muchas veces vivimos mas como meros seres vivientes que con las
posibilidades que nos da un poder ir mas alla de lo que nos condiciona
aqui y ahora, esto supone un riesgo, ya que el vivir abiertos a un
poder ser, y que cada realidad nos abra a otras posibilidades es algo
que produce angustia o por los menos la puede producir

well... a phenomenololgy of living beings, to which we belong and we 
often

live in the same way, without going beyond what is given, the given
circumstances, because this means taking a risk and provokes often
anxiety, but each reality or 'circmstances' we achieve immediatly opens
new possibiliies


 y asi, como en
la politca, intentantos quedarnos en lo que somos/estamos, los otros
animales, por su lado, tienen una mucho mayor sensibilidad para la
situacion que los condiciona y una riqueza de perception que nos
supera, las celulas son muy smart, me decia un dia koichiro matsuno
cuando visite su universidad en nagaoka en 1998 y ahora estamos
aprendiendo a valorar esa inmensa riqueza y variedad de los modos de
vida de otro seres vivientes con sus propiedades y las formas de
convivir con ellos no?

and so as in politics we often prefer to stay where we are... and
other animals for intancce have a much richer sensibility for the
circumstances they are facing, one day in 1998 when I visited
koichiro matsuno in nagaoka he told me: cells are very smart!
and now we are learning from the way of life o other living being,
with their properties and trying to live with them...


y para esto es bueno, 'salvar los fenomenos'
como decian los griegos, es decir ver de que formas son/viven otro
seres vivientes (o no...), la fenomeno-logia es una tarea conceptual
(logos) diferente a la tarea aritmologica y tambien a la tarea de
explicar los fenomenos por sus causas (aitiai, decian los griegos), lo
cual nos lleva de un fenomeno a otro, pero nos hace olvidar lo que
tenemos delante mismo...


and for this is good to "save the phenomena" or 'sozein ta phainomena"
as the Greek said, i.e. to try to see different forms of being, and
this is a conceptual task (logos) different from the task of quantifying
phenomena or of explaing them through cauality i.e. by going to other
phenomena (looking for the 'aitiai' or  causes) but this lets us
forget what we have in front of us...



y tambien es asi que la tarea fenomenologica
de juntar aspectos comunes (el eidos de husserl...) es algo dificil de
hacer, no menos dificil que el describir matematicamente los fenomenos
o buscar causas, siempre inseguro, tentativo, con bordes difusos... y
a veces, como en el caso del electromagnetismo, parecia que los dos
fenomenos son diversos hasta que vino maxwell y vio las cosas de forma
diferente ...

and... so the phenomenological task is trying to find our what is common
to the phenomena (Husserl's eidos) which is difficult to do, no less
difficult than describing them mathematically or explaining them
cauaally, always tentaive, no secure, with fuzzy borders and in some
cases as with maxwells's view of electromagnetism, it comes out that
we think there are two phenonmena, where in fact, there only one...

best

rafael

un abrazo
rafael


ortega y gasset was a



Dear FIS Colleagues,

Some parties have doubts on how to count the two messages per week
--the maximum allowed in this list except for the discussion chair,
which currently is Alex. Following the international business week,
the count starts on Monday and obviously

Re: [Fis] Clarifying Posting

[Robert E. Ulanowicz]

> Pedro -- In short, how might phenomenology relate to science?  There is
> one
> approach - to physiology - that was taken by the British physiologist,
> John
> B. Haldane.  He did ALL his experiments upon himself.
>
> STAN

Dear Pedro,

Most of the discussion has centered about phenomenology in the sense of
Husserl. The topic is broader, however, and remains the foundation of the
engineering philosophy that has guided my career.

I have long advocated a phenomenological approach to biology as the only
way forward. I have devoted years to the phenomenological study of
ecosystems trophic exchange networks and have shown how hypothesis
falsification can be possible in abstraction of eliciting causes
.
I have gone so far as to propose an alternative metaphysics to
conventional mechanical/reductionist theory that followed from
phenomenological premises.


So I would submit that phenomenology is alive and well as a practical and
even quantitative tool in science. It's just that, as an engineer, I find
Husserl tough going. :)

Warm regards,
Bob

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Re: [Fis] Clarifying Posting

[Stanley N Salthe]

Pedro -- In short, how might phenomenology relate to science?  There is one
approach - to physiology - that was taken by the British physiologist, John
B. Haldane.  He did ALL his experiments upon himself.

STAN

On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 6:12 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan  wrote:

> Dear FIS Colleagues,
>
> Some parties have doubts on how to count the two messages per week --the
> maximum allowed in this list except for the discussion chair, which
> currently is Alex. Following the international business week, the count
> starts on Monday and obviously ends on Sunday night. Not abiding by this
> rule leads to posting sanctions. The idea is to keep a reasonable traffic,
> to allow participation of more people, and to promote quiet, "reflective"
> posting beyond the merely excited and "reactive". Remember that people
> willing to check about the recent exchanges may go to:
> http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/
> https://www.mail-archive.com/fis@listas.unizar.es/
>
> As a brief note to Alex: it is fine that we are discussing all these
> curious and advanced themes here (and I do not want to interfere), but
> thinking that we are getting close to the end of this whole phenomenology
> session, and that Plamen's concluding topic will try to open some inroads
> in the applied realm, starting with some contemplation of basic
> multidisciplinary questions could be convenient, at least as a bridge. For
> instance (in my very personal interpretation):
>
> 1. What is the advantage of the phenomenological view in a basic
> information problem (relationship between "world", "object as living
> subject", "inquirer as heterogeneous communities of inquirers"). At least
> this is a real problem of mine when trying to update the scheme of cellular
> signaling relationships with the environment.
>
> 2. What is the advantage of the phenomenological view regarding the entire
> information problem (transcending the different "provincial" approaches to
> information"?
>
> 3. What is the advantage of the phenomenological view regarding the
> multidisciplinary conundrum (the accelerated expansion in the number of
> disciplines--several thousands nowadays, probably close to 10,000) and the
> more and more difficult synthesis and integration?
>
> 4. What is the advantage of closely relating phenomenology with Buddhist
> "metaphysics" (as has been done continuously in the recent discussions
> here)?
>
> Of course, these are dense points --to disregard "reactively"-- and better
> to let them resurface in coming days. Now, in order to facilitate the
> ongoing discussion on Godel's, Dr. Albert Johnstone has joined the fis list
> today (thanks are due to Maxine).
>
> Best greetings---Pedro
>
> -
> Pedro C. Marijuán
> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
> Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
> Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
> Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
> 50009 Zaragoza, Spain
> Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 
> 6818)pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.eshttp://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
> -
>
>
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>
>
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[Fis] Clarifying Posting

[Pedro C. Marijuan]

Dear FIS Colleagues,

Some parties have doubts on how to count the two messages per week --the 
maximum allowed in this list except for the discussion chair, which 
currently is Alex. Following the international business week, the count 
starts on Monday and obviously ends on Sunday night. Not abiding by this 
rule leads to posting sanctions. The idea is to keep a reasonable 
traffic, to allow participation of more people, and to promote quiet, 
"reflective" posting beyond the merely excited and "reactive". Remember 
that people willing to check about the recent exchanges may go to: 
http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/ 
https://www.mail-archive.com/fis@listas.unizar.es/


As a brief note to Alex: it is fine that we are discussing all these 
curious and advanced themes here (and I do not want to interfere), but 
thinking that we are getting close to the end of this whole 
phenomenology session, and that Plamen's concluding topic will try to 
open some inroads in the applied realm, starting with some contemplation 
of basic multidisciplinary questions could be convenient, at least as a 
bridge. For instance (in my very personal interpretation):


1. What is the advantage of the phenomenological view in a basic 
information problem (relationship between "world", "object as living 
subject", "inquirer as heterogeneous communities of inquirers"). At 
least this is a real problem of mine when trying to update the scheme of 
cellular signaling relationships with the environment.


2. What is the advantage of the phenomenological view regarding the 
entire information problem (transcending the different "provincial" 
approaches to information"?


3. What is the advantage of the phenomenological view regarding the 
multidisciplinary conundrum (the accelerated expansion in the number of 
disciplines--several thousands nowadays, probably close to 10,000) and 
the more and more difficult synthesis and integration?


4. What is the advantage of closely relating phenomenology with Buddhist 
"metaphysics" (as has been done continuously in the recent discussions 
here)?


Of course, these are dense points --to disregard "reactively"-- and 
better to let them resurface in coming days. Now, in order to facilitate 
the ongoing discussion on Godel's, Dr. Albert Johnstone has joined the 
fis list today (thanks are due to Maxine).


Best greetings---Pedro

-
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
-

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