Re: [Fis] R: Re: some notes - on the nature of science and communication
y got a digital brain transplant"; etc. The notion of communication might be constructed in a useful way to cover different levels of organisation of phenomena. As growth of a crystal is different from a growth of a plant is different from a growth of a child – and yet it makes sense to talk about growth. So I see using the word “communication” to machines or why not simplest physical systems that interact with other physical systems causing "the difference that makes the difference” for the system itself. Definitions indeed are just the question of making good sense – they are matter of choice. I agree. Best Regards, Bruno Gordana PS Mark Burgin and I have sent invitations to contribute to World Scientific books: http://is4si-2017.org/publications/ Vol 1 Philosophy and Methodology of Information (G. Dodig-Crnkovic and M. Burgin, edts.) Part 1. Philosophy of information Part 2. Methodology of information Part 3. Philosophy of information studies Part 4. Methodology of information studies Vol 2 Theoretical Information Studies (M. Burgin and G. Dodig- Crnkovic, edts.) Part 1. Foundations of information Part 2. Information theory Part 3. Information as a natural phenomenon Part 4. Cognition and intelligence in natural and artificial systems Part 5. Social, economic and legal aspects of information Part 6. Technological aspects of information Please let us know as soon as possible if you intend (and even if you do not intend) to contribute, in order to help us keep the deadlines. https://www.chalmers.se/en/staff/Pages/gordana-dodig-crnkovic.aspx From: Fis on behalf of "tozziart...@libero.it " Reply-To: "tozziart...@libero.it" Date: Friday, 17 November 2017 at 17:44 To: Sungchul Ji , "fis@listas.unizar.es" > Subject: [Fis] R: Re: some notes Dear Sungchul, I do not have anything against you, therefore sorry for my words, but your propositions gave me the opportunity to demonstrate the weirdness of such approaches for science. YOU find it convenient to define communication as an irreducibly triadic process (physical, chemical, biological, physiological, or mental). YOU identify such a triadic process with the Peircean semiosis (or the sign process) often represented as the following diagram which is isomorphic with the commutative triangle of the category theory. Thus, to YOU, communication is a category. I do not agree at all: therefore, could your proposition be kept as science? All the scientists agree on the definition (even if operational) of an atom, or agree that E=mc^2. If we are talking of something qualitative, that one agrees and another do not, we are not in front of Science. Sorry, Nothing personal. Arturo Tozzi AA Professor Physics, University North Texas Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord, Italy Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/ Messaggio originale Da: "Sungchul Ji" Data: 17/11/2017 17.12 A: "Pedro C. Marijuan", "fis">, "Loet Leydesdorff" Ogg: Re: [Fis] some notes Hi FISers, I find it convenient to define communication as an irreducibly triadic process (physical, chemical, biological, physiological, or mental). I identify such a triadic process with the Peircean semiosis (or the sign process) often represented as the following diagram which is isomorphic with the commutative triangle of the category theory. Thus, to me, communication is a category: fg A --> B ---> C | ^ | | |__| h Figure 1. A diagrammatic representation of semiosis, sign process, or communication. The names of the nodes and edges can vary depending on the communication system under consideration, which can be chemical reaction systems, gene expression mechanisms, human communication using symbols, computer systems using electrical signals. If applied to the Shannon communication system, A = source, B = signals, C = receiver, f = encoding, g = decoding, and h = information transfer/flow. When applied to human symbolic communicatioin, A = object, B = sign, C = interpretant, f = sign production, g = interpretation, and h = information flow. One usefulness of Figure 1 is its ability to distinguish between "interactions" (see Steps f and g) and "communication" (see Steps f, g and h); the former is dyadic and the latter triadic. All the best. Sung From: Fis on behalf of Loet Leydesdorff Sent: Friday, November 17, 2017 8:06 AM To: Pedro C. Marijuan; fis Subject: Re: [Fis] some notes Dear Pedro and colleagues, 2. Eigenvectors of communication. Taking the motif from Loet, and
Re: [Fis] R: Re: some notes - on the nature of science and communication
Dear All, In the discussion about the nature of science and the role of quantitative and qualitative methods I would like to add the following statement: Logic is the science of rational thinking or reasoning. http://www.math-inst.hu/~nemeti/whatislogic.html Logic is not a quantitative science. This connects to ancient Greek science that sprung out of philosophy of nature (even Newton was still natural philosopher) which relied more on reason than on observation/experience. And where they indeed made quantitative predictions like Eratosthenes who calculated the circumference of the Earth, the central part of his prediction was based on logical reasoning. The main works of Aristotle were the Prior Analytics (Logic), the Physics, the Animal History, the Rhetorics, the Poetics, the Metaphysics, the Ethics, and the Politics. Today we consider Logic, Physics and Biology to be sciences, while Rhetorics, Poetics, Metaphysics, Ethics and Politics are not. How compulsory is it for something to be “science” in order to be a respectable form of knowledge? Perhaps it is useful at some point in the development of human knowledge to have a holistic view bridging across sciences and other fields? Rational, logical view. Science itself is not everywhere quantitative in its various layers and branches. There are theoretical non-observables in quantum mechanics and other physical theories and they play important role in their construction and operation. Regarding the other discussion point, the necessity to differentiate between "the difference that makes the difference" for a machine and for a living organism I would say that the difference exists but is becoming less and less clear-cut the more machines become cognitive and intelligent. It is not difficult to imagine a limit case where intelligent machine talks to other intelligent machine. Would that be then mixing Shannon with (bio)semiotics? The notion of communication might be constructed in a useful way to cover different levels of organisation of phenomena. As growth of a crystal is different from a growth of a plant is different from a growth of a child – and yet it makes sense to talk about growth. So I see using the word “communication” to machines or why not simplest physical systems that interact with other physical systems causing "the difference that makes the difference” for the system itself. Definitions indeed are just the question of making good sense – they are matter of choice. All the best, Gordana PS Mark Burgin and I have sent invitations to contribute to World Scientific books: http://is4si-2017.org/publications/ Vol 1 Philosophy and Methodology of Information (G. Dodig-Crnkovic and M. Burgin, edts.) Part 1. Philosophy of information Part 2. Methodology of information Part 3. Philosophy of information studies Part 4. Methodology of information studies Vol 2 Theoretical Information Studies (M. Burgin and G. Dodig-Crnkovic, edts.) Part 1. Foundations of information Part 2. Information theory Part 3. Information as a natural phenomenon Part 4. Cognition and intelligence in natural and artificial systems Part 5. Social, economic and legal aspects of information Part 6. Technological aspects of information Please let us know as soon as possible if you intend (and even if you do not intend) to contribute, in order to help us keep the deadlines. https://www.chalmers.se/en/staff/Pages/gordana-dodig-crnkovic.aspx From: Fis mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es>> on behalf of "tozziart...@libero.it<mailto:tozziart...@libero.it>" mailto:tozziart...@libero.it>> Reply-To: "tozziart...@libero.it<mailto:tozziart...@libero.it>" mailto:tozziart...@libero.it>> Date: Friday, 17 November 2017 at 17:44 To: Sungchul Ji mailto:s...@pharmacy.rutgers.edu>>, "fis@listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es>" mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es>> Subject: [Fis] R: Re: some notes Dear Sungchul, I do not have anything against you, therefore sorry for my words, but your propositions gave me the opportunity to demonstrate the weirdness of such approaches for science. YOU find it convenient to define communication as an irreducibly triadic process (physical, chemical, biological, physiological, or mental). YOU identify such a triadic process with the Peircean semiosis (or the sign process) often represented as the following diagram which is isomorphic with the commutative triangle of the category theory. Thus, to YOU, communication is a category. I do not agree at all: therefore, could your proposition be kept as science? All the scientists agree on the definition (even if operational) of an atom, or agree that E=mc^2. If we are talking of something qualitative, that one agrees and another do not, we are not in front of Science. Sorry, Nothing personal. Arturo Tozzi AA Professor Physics, University North Texas Pediatric
[Fis] R: Re: some notes
Dear Sungchul, I do not have anything against you, therefore sorry for my words, but your propositions gave me the opportunity to demonstrate the weirdness of such approaches for science. YOU find it convenient to define communication as an irreducibly triadic process (physical, chemical, biological, physiological, or mental). YOU identify such a triadic process with the Peircean semiosis (or the sign process) often represented as the following diagram which is isomorphic with the commutative triangle of the category theory. Thus, to YOU, communication is a category. I do not agree at all: therefore, could your proposition be kept as science? All the scientists agree on the definition (even if operational) of an atom, or agree that E=mc^2. If we are talking of something qualitative, that one agrees and another do not, we are not in front of Science. Sorry, Nothing personal. Arturo TozziAA Professor Physics, University North TexasPediatrician ASL Na2Nord, ItalyComput Intell Lab, University Manitobahttp://arturotozzi.webnode.it/ Messaggio originale Da: "Sungchul Ji" Data: 17/11/2017 17.12 A: "Pedro C. Marijuan", "fis", "Loet Leydesdorff" Ogg: Re: [Fis] some notes --> Hi FISers, I find it convenient to define communication as an irreducibly triadic process (physical, chemical, biological, physiological, or mental). I identify such a triadic process with the Peircean semiosis (or the sign process) often represented as the following diagram which is isomorphic with the commutative triangle of the category theory. Thus, to me, communication is a category: fg A --> B ---> C | ^ | | |__| h Figure 1. A diagrammatic representation of semiosis, sign process, or communication. The names of the nodes and edges can vary depending on the communication system under consideration, which can be chemical reaction systems, gene expression mechanisms, human communication using symbols, computer systems using electrical signals. If applied to the Shannon communication system, A = source, B = signals, C = receiver, f = encoding, g = decoding, and h = information transfer/flow. When applied to human symbolic communicatioin, A = object, B = sign, C = interpretant, f = sign production, g = interpretation, and h = information flow. One usefulness of Figure 1 is its ability to distinguish between "interactions" (see Steps f and g) and "communication" (see Steps f, g and h); the former is dyadic and the latter triadic. All the best. Sung From: Fis on behalf of Loet Leydesdorff Sent: Friday, November 17, 2017 8:06 AM To: Pedro C. Marijuan; fis Subject: Re: [Fis] some notes Dear Pedro and colleagues, 2. Eigenvectors of communication. Taking the motif from Loet, and continuing with the above, could we say that the life cycle itself establishes the eigenvectors of communication? It is intriguing that maintenance, persistence, self-propagation are the essential motives of communication for whatever life entities (from bacteria to ourselves). With the complexity increase there appear new, more sophisticated directions, but the basic ones probably remain intact. What could be these essential directions of communication? I am not so convinced that there is an a priori relation between life and communication. Communication is not alive. Non-living systems (e.g., computers, robots) also communicate. Perhaps, it matters for the communication whether the communicators are living systems; but this needs to be specified. Communication studies is not biology. Perhaps, there is a specific biological communication as Maturana claims: when molecules are exchanged, one can expect life. Can one have life without communication? It seems to me that one can have communication without life. Communication would then be the broader category and life a special case. Best, Loet 3. About logics in the pre-science, Joseph is quite right demanding that discussion to accompany principles or basic problems. Actually principles, rules, theories, etc. are interconnected or should be by a logic (or several logics?) in order to give validity and coherence to the different combinations of elements. For instance, in the biomolecular realm there is a fascinating interplay of activation and inhibition among the participating molecular partners (enzymes and proteins) as active elements. I am not aware that classical ideas from Jacob (La Logique du vivant) have been sufficiently continued; it is not about Crick's Central Dogma but about the logic of pathways, circuits, modules, etc. Probably both Torday and Ji have their own ideas about that--
