Re: [Fis] social flow

2013-11-27 Thread Pedro C. Marijuan 
Dear FISers,

In some way we are taking the discussion at the fringe of relevant 
fields ---communication studies, information systems, semiotics, 
representation theory, linguistics, etc. If we do not like the way 
communication is handled in itself, taken disconnected of the 
advancement of the life cycle, and "formally"reconnected later on as 
pragmatics, social understanding, cultural dimension, etc. ---what could 
be the alternative? Philosophically I remember an essay of Ortega y 
Gasset on "ratiovitalism", but I am not sure that his ideas can be 
extended into scientific thinking, at least not easily. Communication is 
a property or characteristic derived from the intrinsic openness of life 
(of the life cycle), both in terms of matter and energy and of 
anticipatory adjustment to "signals" from the environment. Signals do 
not participate in metabolic flows, they go different. Is life's 
arrangement of communication hierarchical? I do not think so, except in 
a trivial sense of organisms, organs, tissues, cells, organelles, etc. 
But the inner information flow goes in every conceivable "direction" top 
down, bottom up, laterally, etc. Perhaps the essential achievement of 
organic communication with the external has been pouring the 
environmental happenstances into the same channels of the inner 
self-production info flows and mixing them... Anyhow, this is clearly 
insufficient to make the info flow suggestion "compete" with those 
standard --anthropocentric-- categories of syntactic, semantic, 
pragmatic, etc. By the way, I cannot locate clearly the scholarly origin 
of those terms (widespread use in many realms, and accompanied by other 
similar terms).

best ---Pedro

-- 
-
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
-

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fis@listas.unizar.es
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Re: [Fis] social flow. Finding correspondences

2013-11-24 Thread Loet Leydesdorff 
Joseph writes:

I think that the pessimism of Loet and Christophe could be helped by looking
for dynamic relations at the different levels that are grounded in basic
physics and chemistry, namely ones of changing actuality and potentiality.
The dynamics are not /the same/, but if they have some common principle, we
have something at least to work with. We do take over the biological model
in its totality, but that portion of it which applies throughout nature. The
couplings (Loet) are probably not simple dependency relations, but
interactive relations involving presence and absence, along the lines of
Deacon. Christophe is right that we do not understand completely the human
entities within which information flow occurs, but the rules (Luhn) they
follow are not necessarily totally different or mysterious. Someone with an
oversized ego, A, is going to behave accordingly until he runs, inevitably,
into some resistance (someone with a bigger ego, B). The subsequent dynamics
will follow the same pattern as at lower levels, A's usual behavior will be
potentialized at the expense of B's. Under good conditions, the A and B
interaction will produce an emergent behavior, AB, in which, however, the
original 'egos' have not totally disappeared. If this line is followed,
there is not a total, but a minimum continuity in the form of the
interactions between non-life and life. Information is in this form.

 

I doubt that this is a fruitful assumption: anticipations of future states
invert the time axis against recursions to previous states in historical
(biological) developments. Communication of models enables discourses to
entertain expectations of future states that can be used by reflexive agents
to reconstruct current ones. 

 

We elaborate this in: Loet Leydesdorff, Inga Ivanova, and Mark Johnson, “The
Communication of Expectations and Individual Understanding: Redundancy as
Reduction of Uncertainty, and the Processing of Meaning” (in preparation,
but available as preprint at
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2358791 ). The generation
of more possible states (increasing redundancy) operates very different in
cultural systems because of the possibility to refer to horizons of meaning.


 

I am afraid that this is my second posting for this week. -L 

 

Best,

Loet

 

 

Best,

 

Joseph

 

 

- Original Message - 

From: Loet Leydesdorff <mailto:l...@leydesdorff.net>  

To: fis@listas.unizar.es 

Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 8:18 AM

Subject: Re: [Fis] social flow

 

Dear colleagues, 

 

It seems to me that one can use models from biology to study inter-human
communication; but inter-human communication is not alive. The dynamics are
non-linear, but probably very different from the dynamics among molecules. 

 

For example, counterfactual orders can be shaped culturally among us such as
the rule of law. This cannot be reduced to biological principles (such as
survival of the fittest). The dynamics of expectations are very different
from that of historical events.

 

The psychological may be mediating reflexively between the cultural and the
biological, with a dynamics of itself. Without the individual reflections on
perceptions, the social distribution of expectations would not be
reproduced. However, one cannot reduce these structural couplings to
dependency relations, in my opinion. 

 

Best,

Loet

 

Reference:

Niklas Luhmann <http://ssrn.com/abstract=2355880> ’s Magnificent
Contribution to the Sociological Tradition: The Emergence of the
Knowledge-Based Economy as an Order of Expectations, in: Nachtflug der Eule:
150 Stimmen zum Werk von Niklas Luhmann. Gedenkbuch zum 15. Todestag von
Niklas Luhmann (8. Dezember 1927 Lüneburg - 6. November 1998 Oerlinghausen),
Magdalena Tzaneva (Ed.). Berlin: LiDi Europe Verlagshaus, 2013;
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2355880 .

 

 

From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On
Behalf Of PEDRO CLEMENTE MARIJUAN FERNANDEZ
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2013 9:53 PM
To: Joseph Brenner; Roly Belfer
Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es
Subject: Re: [Fis] social flow

 

Dear FIS colleagues,

Many thanks for the comments exchanged. 
Welcome to Roly, the first party of the Xian's conference publishing in the
list (I mean concerning the invited speakers, as Bi-Lin who also posted
recently was a Xian participant too). I agree with Roli's interpretation and
Joseph's points, and also with the direction started by John. It is one of
the few times we are producing interesting ideas on social information
infrastructures. Perhaps at the time being the "received wisdom" on
communication & social information is not working terribly well.  For
instance, Jakobson six communication functions could be perfectly collapsed
into three, or expanded into nine... I have found a similar "relativity" in
the not so many approaches to cellular / biolog

Re: [Fis] social flow

2013-11-23 Thread Loet Leydesdorff 
Dear colleagues, 

 

It seems to me that one can use models from biology to study inter-human
communication; but inter-human communication is not alive. The dynamics are
non-linear, but probably very different from the dynamics among molecules. 

 

For example, counterfactual orders can be shaped culturally among us such as
the rule of law. This cannot be reduced to biological principles (such as
survival of the fittest). The dynamics of expectations are very different
from that of historical events.

 

The psychological may be mediating reflexively between the cultural and the
biological, with a dynamics of itself. Without the individual reflections on
perceptions, the social distribution of expectations would not be
reproduced. However, one cannot reduce these structural couplings to
dependency relations, in my opinion. 

 

Best,

Loet

 

Reference:

Niklas Luhmann <http://ssrn.com/abstract=2355880> ’s Magnificent
Contribution to the Sociological Tradition: The Emergence of the
Knowledge-Based Economy as an Order of Expectations, in: Nachtflug der Eule:
150 Stimmen zum Werk von Niklas Luhmann. Gedenkbuch zum 15. Todestag von
Niklas Luhmann (8. Dezember 1927 Lüneburg - 6. November 1998 Oerlinghausen),
Magdalena Tzaneva (Ed.). Berlin: LiDi Europe Verlagshaus, 2013;
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2355880 .

 

 

From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On
Behalf Of PEDRO CLEMENTE MARIJUAN FERNANDEZ
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2013 9:53 PM
To: Joseph Brenner; Roly Belfer
Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es
Subject: Re: [Fis] social flow

 

Dear FIS colleagues,

Many thanks for the comments exchanged. 
Welcome to Roly, the first party of the Xian's conference publishing in the
list (I mean concerning the invited speakers, as Bi-Lin who also posted
recently was a Xian participant too). I agree with Roli's interpretation and
Joseph's points, and also with the direction started by John. It is one of
the few times we are producing interesting ideas on social information
infrastructures. Perhaps at the time being the "received wisdom" on
communication & social information is not working terribly well.  For
instance, Jakobson six communication functions could be perfectly collapsed
into three, or expanded into nine... I have found a similar "relativity" in
the not so many approaches to cellular / biological communication.
One of the essential points to reconsider is, in my opinion, the lack of
connection between communication and life itself. Without entering
self-production of the living there can be no sense, no meaning. The notion
of information flow (rather than the "signal") has helped me to cohere the
cellular intertwining scheme. But, little problem, how can the gap to the
human dimension be crossed? Essentially human communication is not logical,
but bio-logical... amorphously structured around the advancement of one's
life, and that includes masterminding well organized motor apparatuses, as
those involved in language production and language interpretation
("cerebellar computation"). Logics is a byproduct of this motor/perceptual
system underlying our concepts and the interlinking of our exchnges, which
becomes mastermined by the fitness demands within social groups --responding
to Bi-Lin's off line comments too. Actually most of our social exchanges are
supradetermined by status, self-image, ambitions, affinity, collective
identities, deception, self-deception, attraction, etc. Rather than noise,
it is life itself!
Haven't we a lot of work to be done in these essential matters?

best ---Pedro

  _  

De: Joseph Brenner [joe.bren...@bluewin.ch]
Enviado el: jueves, 21 de noviembre de 2013 20:22
Para: Roly Belfer; PEDRO CLEMENTE MARIJUAN FERNANDEZ
Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es
Asunto: Re: [Fis] social flow

Dear Roly, Dear Pedro,

 

Thank you for taking this thread in a for me very interesting direction. As
you know, interesting means what I find my logical system can confirm,
improve, validate, etc. The two notes share one feature that one might
criticize, namely, that they deal essentially with present, conscious
material, whereas "information flow" almost  by defintion seems to involve
components that are absent, potential, unconscious, etc.

 

Similarly, the application of the Square of Opposition in Roly's reference
would at first sight appear to be explanatory, but on closer inspection, I
find everything reduced back to binary logic, arrows in a box. What has to
be added, pace Jakobson, is some notion of the actual dynamics of what Roly
calls "a mutual relateable framework". And let's not be too greedy: let's
get the pairwise interactions right and then see where we can go with more
complex ones.

 

Cheers,

 

Joseph

 

 

 

- Original Message - 

From: Roly Belfer <mailto:avi...@gmail.com>  

To: Pedro C. Marijuan <

Re: [Fis] social flow

2013-11-23 Thread Loet Leydesdorff 
Dear colleagues, 

 

It seems to me that one can use models from biology to study inter-human
communication; but inter-human communication is not alive. The dynamics are
non-linear, but probably very different from the dynamics among molecules. 

 

For example, counterfactual orders can be shaped culturally among us such as
the rule of law. This cannot be reduced to biological principles (such as
survival of the fittest). The dynamics of expectations are very different
from that of historical events.

 

The psychological may be mediating reflexively between the cultural and the
biological, with a dynamics of itself. Without the individual reflections on
perceptions, the social distribution of expectations would not be
reproduced. However, one cannot reduce these structural couplings to
dependency relations, in my opinion. 

 

Best,

Loet

 

Reference:

Niklas Luhmann <http://ssrn.com/abstract=2355880> ’s Magnificent
Contribution to the Sociological Tradition: The Emergence of the
Knowledge-Based Economy as an Order of Expectations, in: Nachtflug der Eule:
150 Stimmen zum Werk von Niklas Luhmann. Gedenkbuch zum 15. Todestag von
Niklas Luhmann (8. Dezember 1927 Lüneburg - 6. November 1998 Oerlinghausen),
Magdalena Tzaneva (Ed.). Berlin: LiDi Europe Verlagshaus, 2013;
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2355880 .

 

 

From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On
Behalf Of PEDRO CLEMENTE MARIJUAN FERNANDEZ
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2013 9:53 PM
To: Joseph Brenner; Roly Belfer
Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es
Subject: Re: [Fis] social flow

 

Dear FIS colleagues,

Many thanks for the comments exchanged. 
Welcome to Roly, the first party of the Xian's conference publishing in the
list (I mean concerning the invited speakers, as Bi-Lin who also posted
recently was a Xian participant too). I agree with Roli's interpretation and
Joseph's points, and also with the direction started by John. It is one of
the few times we are producing interesting ideas on social information
infrastructures. Perhaps at the time being the "received wisdom" on
communication & social information is not working terribly well.  For
instance, Jakobson six communication functions could be perfectly collapsed
into three, or expanded into nine... I have found a similar "relativity" in
the not so many approaches to cellular / biological communication.
One of the essential points to reconsider is, in my opinion, the lack of
connection between communication and life itself. Without entering
self-production of the living there can be no sense, no meaning. The notion
of information flow (rather than the "signal") has helped me to cohere the
cellular intertwining scheme. But, little problem, how can the gap to the
human dimension be crossed? Essentially human communication is not logical,
but bio-logical... amorphously structured around the advancement of one's
life, and that includes masterminding well organized motor apparatuses, as
those involved in language production and language interpretation
("cerebellar computation"). Logics is a byproduct of this motor/perceptual
system underlying our concepts and the interlinking of our exchnges, which
becomes mastermined by the fitness demands within social groups --responding
to Bi-Lin's off line comments too. Actually most of our social exchanges are
supradetermined by status, self-image, ambitions, affinity, collective
identities, deception, self-deception, attraction, etc. Rather than noise,
it is life itself!
Haven't we a lot of work to be done in these essential matters?

best ---Pedro

  _  

De: Joseph Brenner [joe.bren...@bluewin.ch]
Enviado el: jueves, 21 de noviembre de 2013 20:22
Para: Roly Belfer; PEDRO CLEMENTE MARIJUAN FERNANDEZ
Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es
Asunto: Re: [Fis] social flow

Dear Roly, Dear Pedro,

 

Thank you for taking this thread in a for me very interesting direction. As
you know, interesting means what I find my logical system can confirm,
improve, validate, etc. The two notes share one feature that one might
criticize, namely, that they deal essentially with present, conscious
material, whereas "information flow" almost  by defintion seems to involve
components that are absent, potential, unconscious, etc.

 

Similarly, the application of the Square of Opposition in Roly's reference
would at first sight appear to be explanatory, but on closer inspection, I
find everything reduced back to binary logic, arrows in a box. What has to
be added, pace Jakobson, is some notion of the actual dynamics of what Roly
calls "a mutual relateable framework". And let's not be too greedy: let's
get the pairwise interactions right and then see where we can go with more
complex ones.

 

Cheers,

 

Joseph

 

 

 

- Original Message - 

From: Roly Belfer <mailto:avi...@gmail.com>  

To: Pedro C. Marijuan <

Re: [Fis] social flow

2013-11-23 Thread PEDRO CLEMENTE MARIJUAN FERNANDEZ 
Dear FIS colleagues,

Many thanks for the comments exchanged.
Welcome to Roly, the first party of the Xian's conference publishing in the 
list (I mean concerning the invited speakers, as Bi-Lin who also posted 
recently was a Xian participant too). I agree with Roli's interpretation and 
Joseph's points, and also with the direction started by John. It is one of the 
few times we are producing interesting ideas on social information 
infrastructures. Perhaps at the time being the "received wisdom" on 
communication & social information is not working terribly well.  For instance, 
Jakobson six communication functions could be perfectly collapsed into three, 
or expanded into nine... I have found a similar "relativity" in the not so many 
approaches to cellular / biological communication.
One of the essential points to reconsider is, in my opinion, the lack of 
connection between communication and life itself. Without entering 
self-production of the living there can be no sense, no meaning. The notion of 
information flow (rather than the "signal") has helped me to cohere the 
cellular intertwining scheme. But, little problem, how can the gap to the human 
dimension be crossed? Essentially human communication is not logical, but 
bio-logical... amorphously structured around the advancement of one's life, and 
that includes masterminding well organized motor apparatuses, as those involved 
in language production and language interpretation ("cerebellar computation"). 
Logics is a byproduct of this motor/perceptual system underlying our concepts 
and the interlinking of our exchnges, which becomes mastermined by the fitness 
demands within social groups --responding to Bi-Lin's off line comments too. 
Actually most of our social exchanges are supradetermined by status, 
self-image, ambitions, affinity, collective identities, deception, 
self-deception, attraction, etc. Rather than noise, it is life itself!
Haven't we a lot of work to be done in these essential matters?

best ---Pedro


De: Joseph Brenner [joe.bren...@bluewin.ch]
Enviado el: jueves, 21 de noviembre de 2013 20:22
Para: Roly Belfer; PEDRO CLEMENTE MARIJUAN FERNANDEZ
Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es
Asunto: Re: [Fis] social flow

Dear Roly, Dear Pedro,

Thank you for taking this thread in a for me very interesting direction. As you 
know, interesting means what I find my logical system can confirm, improve, 
validate, etc. The two notes share one feature that one might criticize, 
namely, that they deal essentially with present, conscious material, whereas 
"information flow" almost  by defintion seems to involve components that are 
absent, potential, unconscious, etc.

Similarly, the application of the Square of Opposition in Roly's reference 
would at first sight appear to be explanatory, but on closer inspection, I find 
everything reduced back to binary logic, arrows in a box. What has to be added, 
pace Jakobson, is some notion of the actual dynamics of what Roly calls "a 
mutual relateable framework". And let's not be too greedy: let's get the 
pairwise interactions right and then see where we can go with more complex ones.

Cheers,

Joseph



- Original Message -
From: Roly Belfer<mailto:avi...@gmail.com>
To: Pedro C. Marijuan<mailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es>
Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es>
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2013 4:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Fis] social flow

Dear Pedro

Thank you! there is some sort of synchronicity here: I was just recently 
thinking about Roman Jakobson and his 6 levels of semiotic analysis. Especially 
the phatic expression, as some kind of white noise that is necessary for the 
interpersonal informational "handshake". That is, an infosphere - be it organic 
or more like artificial info networks - would need to have actants operate in a 
mutually relateable framework (even if it is only pairwise).

The meaningless/senseless datum is important for establishing the lines of 
communication, and perhaps some emergent properties (such as intimacy, 
grouping, pre-communicative  acceptance).
Do you know of any quantified work re Jakobson? (I keep 
this<http://webdelprofesor.ula.ve/arquitectura/rlacruz/publicaciones_archivos/dimensions_english.pdf>
 around for different purposes)

Best
Roly


On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 1:50 PM, Pedro C. Marijuan 
mailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es>> wrote:
Dear FIS colleagues,

Just a wandering thought, in part motivated by the highly formal
contents of the other discussion track. What are the major contents,
topics, and styles in our social, spontaneous exchanges? Seemingly the
response is that most of those exchanges are just casual, irrelevant,
performed for their own sake. There are scholarly references about
that---though our own perusal of social life may quite agree. The
informati

Re: [Fis] social flow

2013-11-21 Thread Roly Belfer 
Thanks Joseph. I agree completely. That is precisely why I wanted something
more, and have yet to find it.



On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Joseph Brenner wrote:

>  Dear Roly, Dear Pedro,
>
> Thank you for taking this thread in a for me very interesting direction.
> As you know, interesting means what I find my logical system can confirm,
> improve, validate, etc. The two notes share one feature that one might
> criticize, namely, that they deal essentially with present, conscious
> material, whereas "information flow" almost  by defintion seems to involve
> components that are absent, potential, unconscious, etc.
>
> Similarly, the application of the Square of Opposition in Roly's reference
> would at first sight appear to be explanatory, but on closer inspection, I
> find everything reduced back to binary logic, arrows in a box. What has to
> be added, *pace *Jakobson, is some notion of the actual dynamics of what
> Roly calls "a mutual relateable framework". And let's not be too greedy:
> let's get the pairwise interactions right and then see where we can go with
> more complex ones.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Joseph
>
>
>
>
> - Original Message -
> *From:* Roly Belfer 
> *To:* Pedro C. Marijuan 
> *Cc:* fis@listas.unizar.es
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 21, 2013 4:44 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] social flow
>
> Dear Pedro
>
> Thank you! there is some sort of synchronicity here: I was just recently
> thinking about Roman Jakobson and his 6 levels of semiotic analysis.
> Especially the *phatic expression*, as some kind of white noise that is
> necessary for the interpersonal informational "handshake". That is, an
> infosphere - be it organic or more like artificial info networks - would
> need to have actants operate in a mutually relateable framework (even if it
> is only pairwise).
>
>  The meaningless/senseless datum is important for establishing the lines
> of communication, and perhaps some emergent properties (such as intimacy,
> grouping, pre-communicative  acceptance).
> Do you know of any quantified work re Jakobson? (I keep 
> this<http://webdelprofesor.ula.ve/arquitectura/rlacruz/publicaciones_archivos/dimensions_english.pdf>around
>  for different purposes)
>
> Best
> Roly
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 1:50 PM, Pedro C. Marijuan <
> pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es> wrote:
>
>> Dear FIS colleagues,
>>
>> Just a wandering thought, in part motivated by the highly formal
>> contents of the other discussion track. What are the major contents,
>> topics, and styles in our social, spontaneous exchanges? Seemingly the
>> response is that most of those exchanges are just casual, irrelevant,
>> performed for their own sake. There are scholarly references about
>> that---though our own perusal of social life may quite agree. The
>> information flow, the circulation of social information, becomes the
>> message itself (echoing McLuhan), amorphously gluing the different
>> networks of the social structure... Flowing naturally in spontaneous
>> exchanges and also fabricated and recirculated by the media. Our
>> talkative species needs the daily dose --otherwise mental health resents
>> quite easily.
>> I am these days reading Robert Trivers (2011) on self-deception and how
>> the info flow we are conscious of becomes a highly self-centered
>> concoction for for our own social self-promotion. I think it partially
>> dovetails with the above: "we are the content."
>>
>> best ---Pedro
>>
>> --
>> -
>> Pedro C. Marijuán
>> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>> Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
>> Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
>> Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
>> 50009 Zaragoza, Spain
>> Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)
>> pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
>> http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
>> -
>>
>> ___
>> fis mailing list
>> fis@listas.unizar.es
>> https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>
>
>  --
>
> ___
> fis mailing list
> fis@listas.unizar.es
> https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>
>
___
fis mailing list
fis@listas.unizar.es
https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

Re: [Fis] social flow

2013-11-21 Thread Joseph Brenner 
Dear Roly, Dear Pedro,

Thank you for taking this thread in a for me very interesting direction. As you 
know, interesting means what I find my logical system can confirm, improve, 
validate, etc. The two notes share one feature that one might criticize, 
namely, that they deal essentially with present, conscious material, whereas 
"information flow" almost  by defintion seems to involve components that are 
absent, potential, unconscious, etc.

Similarly, the application of the Square of Opposition in Roly's reference 
would at first sight appear to be explanatory, but on closer inspection, I find 
everything reduced back to binary logic, arrows in a box. What has to be added, 
pace Jakobson, is some notion of the actual dynamics of what Roly calls "a 
mutual relateable framework". And let's not be too greedy: let's get the 
pairwise interactions right and then see where we can go with more complex ones.

Cheers,

Joseph



  - Original Message - 
  From: Roly Belfer 
  To: Pedro C. Marijuan 
  Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es 
  Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2013 4:44 PM
  Subject: Re: [Fis] social flow


  Dear Pedro


  Thank you! there is some sort of synchronicity here: I was just recently 
thinking about Roman Jakobson and his 6 levels of semiotic analysis. Especially 
the phatic expression, as some kind of white noise that is necessary for the 
interpersonal informational "handshake". That is, an infosphere - be it organic 
or more like artificial info networks - would need to have actants operate in a 
mutually relateable framework (even if it is only pairwise).


  The meaningless/senseless datum is important for establishing the lines of 
communication, and perhaps some emergent properties (such as intimacy, 
grouping, pre-communicative  acceptance). 
  Do you know of any quantified work re Jakobson? (I keep this around for 
different purposes) 


  Best
  Roly



  On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 1:50 PM, Pedro C. Marijuan 
 wrote:

Dear FIS colleagues,

Just a wandering thought, in part motivated by the highly formal
contents of the other discussion track. What are the major contents,
topics, and styles in our social, spontaneous exchanges? Seemingly the
response is that most of those exchanges are just casual, irrelevant,
performed for their own sake. There are scholarly references about
that---though our own perusal of social life may quite agree. The
information flow, the circulation of social information, becomes the
message itself (echoing McLuhan), amorphously gluing the different
networks of the social structure... Flowing naturally in spontaneous
exchanges and also fabricated and recirculated by the media. Our
talkative species needs the daily dose --otherwise mental health resents
quite easily.
I am these days reading Robert Trivers (2011) on self-deception and how
the info flow we are conscious of becomes a highly self-centered
concoction for for our own social self-promotion. I think it partially
dovetails with the above: "we are the content."

best ---Pedro

--
-
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
-

___
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Re: [Fis] social flow

2013-11-21 Thread John Collier 
Interesting point, Pedro. Robin Dunbar's work is 
closer to a pure social bonding role. He argues, 
and has some evidence for, oral communication 
playing a similar role in our cultures as 
grooming does in chimpanzees and other species. 
He uses this to explain how we can have larger 
group sizes. To my knowledge neither he nor 
others have applied idea to the implications of 
writing, though I have read some speculation 
about internet communication on group sizes, but 
none of it seemed very scientific to me.

I have some further things I can say about roles 
of communication with respect to bonding, content 
and meaning prescriptions, but I will keep them 
for now as I am way behind in a number of things 
I must do. Basically, though, verbal 
communication plays multiple roles the same time.

John


At 01:50 PM 2013/11/21, Pedro C. Marijuan wrote:
>Dear FIS colleagues,
>
>Just a wandering thought, in part motivated by the highly formal
>contents of the other discussion track. What are the major contents,
>topics, and styles in our social, spontaneous exchanges? Seemingly the
>response is that most of those exchanges are just casual, irrelevant,
>performed for their own sake. There are scholarly references about
>that---though our own perusal of social life may quite agree. The
>information flow, the circulation of social information, becomes the
>message itself (echoing McLuhan), amorphously gluing the different
>networks of the social structure... Flowing naturally in spontaneous
>exchanges and also fabricated and recirculated by the media. Our
>talkative species needs the daily dose --otherwise mental health resents
>quite easily.
>I am these days reading Robert Trivers (2011) on self-deception and how
>the info flow we are conscious of becomes a highly self-centered
>concoction for for our own social self-promotion. I think it partially
>dovetails with the above: "we are the content."
>
>best ---Pedro
>
>--
>-
>Pedro C. Marijuán
>Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
>Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
>Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
>50009 Zaragoza, Spain
>Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)
>pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
>http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
>-
>
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--
Professor John Collier colli...@ukzn.ac.za
Philosophy and Ethics, University of KwaZulu-Natal, Durban 4041 South Africa
T: +27 (31) 260 3248 / 260 2292   F: +27 (31) 260 3031
Http://web.ncf.ca/collier


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Re: [Fis] social flow

2013-11-21 Thread Roly Belfer 
Dear Pedro

Thank you! there is some sort of synchronicity here: I was just recently
thinking about Roman Jakobson and his 6 levels of semiotic analysis.
Especially the *phatic expression*, as some kind of white noise that is
necessary for the interpersonal informational "handshake". That is, an
infosphere - be it organic or more like artificial info networks - would
need to have actants operate in a mutually relateable framework (even if it
is only pairwise).

The meaningless/senseless datum is important for establishing the lines of
communication, and perhaps some emergent properties (such as intimacy,
grouping, pre-communicative  acceptance).
Do you know of any quantified work re Jakobson? (I keep
thisaround
for different porpouses)

Best
Roly


On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 1:50 PM, Pedro C. Marijuan <
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es> wrote:

> Dear FIS colleagues,
>
> Just a wandering thought, in part motivated by the highly formal
> contents of the other discussion track. What are the major contents,
> topics, and styles in our social, spontaneous exchanges? Seemingly the
> response is that most of those exchanges are just casual, irrelevant,
> performed for their own sake. There are scholarly references about
> that---though our own perusal of social life may quite agree. The
> information flow, the circulation of social information, becomes the
> message itself (echoing McLuhan), amorphously gluing the different
> networks of the social structure... Flowing naturally in spontaneous
> exchanges and also fabricated and recirculated by the media. Our
> talkative species needs the daily dose --otherwise mental health resents
> quite easily.
> I am these days reading Robert Trivers (2011) on self-deception and how
> the info flow we are conscious of becomes a highly self-centered
> concoction for for our own social self-promotion. I think it partially
> dovetails with the above: "we are the content."
>
> best ---Pedro
>
> --
> -
> Pedro C. Marijuán
> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
> Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
> Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
> Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
> 50009 Zaragoza, Spain
> Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)
> pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
> http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
> -
>
> ___
> fis mailing list
> fis@listas.unizar.es
> https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>
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[Fis] social flow

2013-11-21 Thread Pedro C. Marijuan 
Dear FIS colleagues,

Just a wandering thought, in part motivated by the highly formal 
contents of the other discussion track. What are the major contents, 
topics, and styles in our social, spontaneous exchanges? Seemingly the 
response is that most of those exchanges are just casual, irrelevant, 
performed for their own sake. There are scholarly references about 
that---though our own perusal of social life may quite agree. The 
information flow, the circulation of social information, becomes the 
message itself (echoing McLuhan), amorphously gluing the different 
networks of the social structure... Flowing naturally in spontaneous 
exchanges and also fabricated and recirculated by the media. Our 
talkative species needs the daily dose --otherwise mental health resents 
quite easily.
I am these days reading Robert Trivers (2011) on self-deception and how 
the info flow we are conscious of becomes a highly self-centered 
concoction for for our own social self-promotion. I think it partially 
dovetails with the above: "we are the content."

best ---Pedro

-- 
-
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
-

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