Re: [Fis] Hannam's Contentious Postulate. The Peircean Mirror

[Pedro C. Marijuan]

Dear Gordana and colleagues,

Your quotation  "But I would rather risk such reproaches than accept the 
present situation, in which philosophers argue only with dead biologists 
and biologists only with dead philosophers... " is quite funny and 
descriptive. In my terms, the recombination of knowledge is a slow, 
generationally driven process, except maybe in "revolutionary"  periods 
like today. Thus, in spite of Peirce scholarly greatness, and his 
crucial involvement in the creation of "pragmatism", it does not follow 
that this general philosophy or his semiotician stance, elaborated 
almost three generations ago, make a good match with the current 
developments in "connectomics" and in the "motor-centered approach" 
attempted by contemporary neuroscientists. My hunch is that a new 
information philosophy is needed in order to coherently link not only 
with the neurosciences but also with biology and Q Info science and 
advanced Artificial Intelligence. The unfortunately missing 
neurosceintific aspect is really crucial for our common enterprise, and 
it is a discussion we must promote in the list...


There is a very interesting attempt in the theoretical-biological arena 
that may be taken as a model for the neuroscience missing link. It is 
the INBIOSA project (www.inbiosa.eu ), that 
promotes a new integration paradigm about theoretical biology, 
biomathematics, and biocomputing. It is a preliminary European project 
funded by the EU, and some FISers know it very well as they (we) are 
already cooperating in this initiative. Somehow, what inbiosa attempts 
is the "what is life" of our times... It has been promoted by Plamen 
Simeonov, Andrée Ehresmann, Leslie Smith, Bruno Marchal, and others. 
They have recently joined our own discussion list (let me welcome them 
publicly!). In the extent to which a general multidisciplinary 
discussion may be convenient for them at some developmental stage, they 
are invited to chair some FIS future discussion session.


By the way, given that we have almost discontinued with James' 
presentation on medieval science, maybe it is time that he writes down a 
discussion "colophon"... We have had a nice time with his historical 
panorama (particularly in the scholarly "disputatione" so enlivened by 
Jerry's musings). Thanks, James!


best wishes

---Pedro



Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic escribió:


Dear Joseph,

 

Thank you for this precise clarification. I agree completely and I 
also follow tensions and changes in our discussions in the list.


Especially interesting to me is how theories or frameworks 
communicate, use each other and internalize each other.


(I believe that is essentially the same process as the one you mention 
for the change of Logic in Reality itself).


Currently there are ongoing paradigm shifts in computing, logic, 
biology, cognitive science, information science and several others.


Not all research fields get "updated" instantly, it takes time.

Interdisciplinary discussions sometimes contain criticisms built on 
presupposition about other research fields as they looked like some 
time before.


(I meet often the idea that computing is the same as the Turing 
Machine model.  But there is strong development of new computational 
paradigms and even if they are not completely established, they 
already exist in some fragmentary form.)


 

"But I would rather risk such reproaches than accept the present 
situation,
in which philosophers argue only with dead biologists and biologists 
only with dead philosophers... "

Michael Morange,  Life Explained

 

So I think this list is a good example of living philosophers talking 
with living biologists and other living FISers which makes it much 
more exciting and difficult.


 


Best regards,

Gordana

 




--
-
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Avda. Gómez Laguna, 25, Pl. 11ª
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Telf: 34 976 71 3526 (& 6818) Fax: 34 976 71 5554
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
-

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Re: [Fis] Hannam's Contentious Postulate. The Peircean Mirror

[Gavin Ritz]

Can you specify exactly what this "Logic in Reality" is?

Its framework?
Its connectives?
Its categorical-identity?

Reagrds
Gavin

-Original Message-
From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On 
Behalf Of Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic
Sent: Wednesday, 23 March 2011 10:09 a.m.
To: joe.bren...@bluewin.ch; Loet Leydesdorff; fis@listas.unizar.es
Subject: Re: [Fis] Hannam's Contentious Postulate. The Peircean Mirror

Dear Joseph,

Thank you for this precise clarification. I agree completely and I also follow 
tensions and changes in our discussions in the list.
Especially interesting to me is how theories or frameworks communicate, use 
each other and internalize each other. 
(I believe that is essentially the same process as the one you mention for the 
change of Logic in Reality itself).
Currently there are ongoing paradigm shifts in computing, logic, biology, 
cognitive science, information science and several others. 
Not all research fields get “updated” instantly, it takes time. 
Interdisciplinary discussions sometimes contain criticisms built on 
presupposition about other research fields as they looked like some time before.
(I meet often the idea that computing is the same as the Turing Machine model.  
But there is strong development of new computational paradigms and even if they 
are not completely established, they already exist in some fragmentary form.)

“But I would rather risk such reproaches than accept the present situation, 
in which philosophers argue only with dead biologists and biologists only with 
dead philosophers… “ 
Michael Morange,  Life Explained

So I think this list is a good example of living philosophers talking with 
living biologists and other living FISers which makes it much more exciting and 
difficult.

Best regards,
Gordana


From: joe.bren...@bluewin.ch [mailto:joe.bren...@bluewin.ch] 
Sent: den 22 mars 2011 21:08
To: Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic; Loet Leydesdorff; fis@listas.unizar.es
Subject: AW: RE: [Fis] Hannam's Contentious Postulate. The Peircean Mirror

Dear Gordana,

Thank you for your very pertinent illustration of what Logic in Reality "is". 
There are (at least) two dynamics possible, 1) the tension between two existing 
frameworks, from which a new one (jump) may emerge and 2) that between an 
existing framework, for example Logic in Reality itself and what it could 
potentially become. I would just emend your phrase the "the world is more than 
a theory we have at hand" to "more than we have at hand in actual form" to make 
clearer that what is potential is also "at hand".

That these tensions are real is illustrated almost every day in these 
discussions . . .

Best regards,

Joseph
Ursprüngliche Nachricht
Von: gordana.dodig-crnko...@mdh.se
Datum: 21.03.2011 08:40
An: "Loet Leydesdorff", 
"joe.bren...@bluewin.ch", 
"fis@listas.unizar.es"
Betreff: RE: [Fis] Hannam's Contentious Postulate. The Peircean Mirror

Dear Loet, Joe, Fis colleagues
 
 
>Nowadays, the possibility of theory-free observations – e.g., Carnap – is much 
>more doubtful. Most of >us will have given up on this “realistic” position.
 
This is a very interesting issue. It seems to me very reasonable to claim that 
for any observation one has at least a rudimentary “theory” – as this process 
goes in a loop. Observation is done in time and during observation we act, 
which demands at least basic theoretical understanding. Of course sophisticated 
observations like those made in CERN are loaded with tons of theory. But there 
is a difference between acting within some system, or acting on a premise that 
what is studied maybe goes outside that systems box. One example is 
generalization of physics from Aristotelian to Newtonian. Within a system, one 
introduces more and more complicated assumptions in order to accommodate for 
observations, but at some point framework must change. There are jumps to more 
generalized frameworks in this process of learning. I see Joe’s logic in 
reality even here – a tension between an existing framework (which a is not 
enough) and the potential new one capable of accommodating for new knowledge. 
So realism would consist in not denying that the world is more than a theory we 
have at hands.
 
>One would also wonder whether animals without language, would have the 
>possibility to compose and perform music (without human orchestration).
 
Some birds are singing and birdsong sounds like music. Much of modern music is 
produced almost like a birdsong in a sense that it is not following any rules 
of composition, sometimes it is simply a collection of sounds found in nature. ☺
 
Best,
Gordana
 
 
http://www.mrtc.mdh.se/~gdc/
 
 
From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On 
Behalf Of Loet Leydesdorff
Sent: den 21 mars 2011 08:04
To: joe.bren...@bluewin.ch; fis@listas.unizar.es
Subject: Re

Re: [Fis] Hannam's Contentious Postulate. The Peircean Mirror

[Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic]

Dear Joseph,

Thank you for this precise clarification. I agree completely and I also follow 
tensions and changes in our discussions in the list.
Especially interesting to me is how theories or frameworks communicate, use 
each other and internalize each other.
(I believe that is essentially the same process as the one you mention for the 
change of Logic in Reality itself).
Currently there are ongoing paradigm shifts in computing, logic, biology, 
cognitive science, information science and several others.
Not all research fields get “updated” instantly, it takes time.
Interdisciplinary discussions sometimes contain criticisms built on 
presupposition about other research fields as they looked like some time before.
(I meet often the idea that computing is the same as the Turing Machine model.  
But there is strong development of new computational paradigms and even if they 
are not completely established, they already exist in some fragmentary form.)

“But I would rather risk such reproaches than accept the present situation,
in which philosophers argue only with dead biologists and biologists only with 
dead philosophers… “
Michael Morange,  Life Explained

So I think this list is a good example of living philosophers talking with 
living biologists and other living FISers which makes it much more exciting and 
difficult.

Best regards,
Gordana


From: joe.bren...@bluewin.ch [mailto:joe.bren...@bluewin.ch]
Sent: den 22 mars 2011 21:08
To: Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic; Loet Leydesdorff; fis@listas.unizar.es
Subject: AW: RE: [Fis] Hannam's Contentious Postulate. The Peircean Mirror

Dear Gordana,

Thank you for your very pertinent illustration of what Logic in Reality "is". 
There are (at least) two dynamics possible, 1) the tension between two existing 
frameworks, from which a new one (jump) may emerge and 2) that between an 
existing framework, for example Logic in Reality itself and what it could 
potentially become. I would just emend your phrase the "the world is more than 
a theory we have at hand" to "more than we have at hand in actual form" to make 
clearer that what is potential is also "at hand".

That these tensions are real is illustrated almost every day in these 
discussions . . .

Best regards,

Joseph
Ursprüngliche Nachricht
Von: gordana.dodig-crnko...@mdh.se
Datum: 21.03.2011 08:40
An: "Loet Leydesdorff", 
"joe.bren...@bluewin.ch", 
"fis@listas.unizar.es"
Betreff: RE: [Fis] Hannam's Contentious Postulate. The Peircean Mirror


Dear Loet, Joe, Fis colleagues


>Nowadays, the possibility of theory-free observations – e.g., Carnap – is much 
>more doubtful. Most of >us will have given up on this “realistic” position.

This is a very interesting issue. It seems to me very reasonable to claim that 
for any observation one has at least a rudimentary “theory” – as this process 
goes in a loop. Observation is done in time and during observation we act, 
which demands at least basic theoretical understanding. Of course sophisticated 
observations like those made in CERN are loaded with tons of theory. But there 
is a difference between acting within some system, or acting on a premise that 
what is studied maybe goes outside that systems box. One example is 
generalization of physics from Aristotelian to Newtonian. Within a system, one 
introduces more and more complicated assumptions in order to accommodate for 
observations, but at some point framework must change. There are jumps to more 
generalized frameworks in this process of learning. I see Joe’s logic in 
reality even here – a tension between an existing framework (which a is not 
enough) and the potential new one capable of accommodating for new knowledge. 
So realism would consist in not denying that the world is more than a theory we 
have at hands.

>One would also wonder whether animals without language, would have the 
>possibility to compose and perform music (without human orchestration).

Some birds are singing and birdsong sounds like music. Much of modern music is 
produced almost like a birdsong in a sense that it is not following any rules 
of composition, sometimes it is simply a collection of sounds found in nature. ☺

Best,
Gordana


http://www.mrtc.mdh.se/~gdc/


From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On 
Behalf Of Loet Leydesdorff
Sent: den 21 mars 2011 08:04
To: joe.bren...@bluewin.ch; fis@listas.unizar.es
Subject: Re: [Fis] Hannam's Contentious Postulate. The Peircean Mirror

To paraphrase Antonio Salieri's famous "Prima la musica, dopo le parole", I say 
"first reality, then the signs".

Dear Joseph: “allegro, ma non troppo”!

In the 18th century, “nature” is still considered as God’s creation and 
therefore has priority to our (human) wordings and signings. Thus, one was 
interested in “natural philosophy” and “natural law” as manifestations. 
However, th

Re: [Fis] Hannam's Contentious Postulate. The Peircean Mirror

[joe.bren...@bluewin.ch]

Dear Gordana,
Thank you for your very pertinent illustration of what Logic in Reality "is". 
There are (at least) two dynamics possible, 1) the tension between two existing 
frameworks, from which a new one (jump) may emerge and 2) that between an 
existing framework, for example Logic in Reality itself and what it could 
potentially become. I would just emend your phrase the "the world is more than 
a theory we have at hand" to "more than we have at hand in actual form" to make 
clearer that what is potential is also "at hand".
That these tensions are real is illustrated almost every day in these 
discussions . . .
Best regards,
Joseph




Ursprüngliche Nachricht

Von: gordana.dodig-crnko...@mdh.se

Datum: 21.03.2011 08:40

An: "Loet Leydesdorff", 
"joe.bren...@bluewin.ch", 
"fis@listas.unizar.es"

Betreff: RE: [Fis] Hannam's Contentious Postulate. The Peircean Mirror












-->

Dear Loet, Joe, Fis colleagues
 
 
>Nowadays, the possibility of theory-free observations –
e.g., Carnap – is much more doubtful. Most of >us will have given up on this
“realistic” position.
 
This is a very interesting issue. It seems to me very reasonable
to claim that for any observation one has at least a rudimentary “theory” – as
this process goes in a loop. Observation is done in time and during observation
we act, which demands at least basic theoretical understanding. Of course
sophisticated observations like those made in CERN are loaded with tons of
theory. But there is a difference between acting within some system, or acting
on a premise that what is studied maybe goes outside that systems box. One
example is generalization of physics from Aristotelian to Newtonian. Within a
system, one introduces more and more complicated assumptions in order to 
accommodate
for observations, but at some point framework must change. There are jumps to
more generalized frameworks in this process of learning. I see Joe’s logic in
reality even here – a tension between an existing framework (which a is not
enough) and the potential new one capable of accommodating for new knowledge.
So realism would consist in not denying that the world is more than a theory we
have at hands.
 
>One would also wonder whether animals without language,
would have the possibility to compose and perform music (without human
orchestration).
 
Some birds are singing and birdsong sounds like music. Much of
modern music is produced almost like a birdsong in a sense that it is not
following any rules of composition, sometimes it is simply a collection of
sounds found in nature. J
 
Best,
Gordana
 
 
http://www.mrtc.mdh.se/~gdc/
 
 


From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es
[mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Loet Leydesdorff

Sent: den 21 mars 2011 08:04

To: joe.bren...@bluewin.ch; fis@listas.unizar.es

Subject: Re: [Fis] Hannam's Contentious Postulate. The Peircean Mirror


 
To paraphrase Antonio Salieri's famous "Prima
la musica, dopo le parole", I say "first reality, then the
signs".

 
Dear Joseph: “allegro,
ma non troppo”!
 
In the 18th
century, “nature” is still considered as God’s creation and therefore has
priority to our (human) wordings and signings. Thus, one was interested in
“natural philosophy” and “natural law” as manifestations. However, this has
eroded. Nowadays, the possibility of theory-free observations – e.g., Carnap –
is much more doubtful. Most of us will have given up on this “realistic”
position. One would also wonder whether animals without language, would have
the possibility to compose and perform music (without human orchestration).
 
It seems important to
me to distinguish between the order in which things are historically generated
(although we have no access to this process than by reconstructing this order)
and the evolutionary order of control. The latter system emerges from the
former: order is constructed bottom-up, but control is increasingly top-down.
The control arrow feeds back on the historical arrow and from this perspective
the signs come first. 
 
This may not have been
included in Pierce’s writings. J
 
With best wishes, 
Loet
 








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Re: [Fis] Hannam's Contentious Postulate. The Peircean Mirror

[Steven Ericsson-Zenith]

On Mar 20, 2011, at 4:18 PM, joe.bren...@bluewin.ch wrote:

> ... I am convinced that for further progress in information, let alone other 
> matters, some recognition of the limitations of Peirce may have to be 
> recognized. John's statement that "pragmatics means action" can be applicable 
> to real processes only if the pragmatics in question includes ontological 
> (scientific) principles and not only epistemological classifications. 

Dear Joe,

I do not believe that any Peirce scholar takes Peirce to be definitive. 
Peirce's inquiry is broad and penetrating, but it is also diverse and 
exploratory.

However, I do not think that Peirce would understand your second sentence here 
because it is poorly stated, full of misconceptions about his ideas and 
incomplete. Peirce gave these existential matters deep consideration.

> 
> As Queiroz, Emmeche and El Hani write: "In a Peircean model, Sign, Object and 
> Interpretant are triadically coupled in a dynamically irreducible process. In 
> other words, 'information' requires a triadic pattern of determinative 
> relationships involving the Sign, Object and Interpretant." Information, in 
> this view, has a "processual nature".
> 
> In my view, this simply displaces the problem further, since the Peircean 
> categories themselves are derivative, epistemological constructions which 
> 'mirror', literally and figuratively, the underlying dynamic structure of the 
> universe as Peirce saw it. The processes referred to by Q, E and EH are 
> indeed interpreter-dependent objective processes, but they admit that they 
> cannot be dissociated from the notion of a situated agent. Here, we have gone 
> outside Peirce, since the discussion of the "agent" and his/her interactions 
> requires a physical dialectics and logic that is absent in Peirce.

This is simply a false statement. Peirce gave extensive consideration to what 
you call "agents and their interactions" and physical, existential, aspects as 
they relate to the elements of logic. 

> To try to restate my interpretation, to say that for effective information, 
> or effective semiosis to take place by having a Sign effectively communicate, 
> by mediating the relation between Object and Interpretant, a form from the 
> object to Interpretant by changing the state of the interpreter (emphasis 
> mine) says no more than that information is something that changes the state 
> of an agent. In the statement that an effective Sign, by being actualized 
> (sic), has an actual effect on an interpreter (NOT interpretant), Sign is 
> simply a placeholder for an undefined real process, since a "Sign defined as 
> a medium for the communication of a form" is, again, simply an analytic 
> mirror for some reality that operates according to as yet undefined rules.
> 
> The Peircean processual approach to information seeks to acquire additional 
> dynamics by distinguishing it from some structure considered as a totally 
> static phenomenon. What has been missed are the actual and potential dynamic 
> aspects of structure and form themselves - a sequence of nucleotides, for 
> example, not in abstracto, but in a real cell.

Again, this is simply not the case. I urge you to find a copy of his Collected 
Papers, or the chronological publications of The Peirce Project, where there 
are examples too numerous for me to cite in brief.

One note of my own observation: This notion of "communicate" that you use and 
is often found in discussions of information is a way of speaking about the 
distinct expression and apprehension of marks. Signs do not "communicate" (and 
nor do "marks"). A sign in any semeiotic theory is a feature of, embodied by, 
the apprehender.

With respect,
Steven

--
Dr. Steven Ericsson-Zenith
Institute for Advanced Science & Engineering
http://iase.info
http://senses.info








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Re: [Fis] Hannam's Contentious Postulate. The Peircean Mirror

[Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic]

Dear Loet, Joe, Fis colleagues


>Nowadays, the possibility of theory-free observations – e.g., Carnap – is much 
>more doubtful. Most of >us will have given up on this “realistic” position.

This is a very interesting issue. It seems to me very reasonable to claim that 
for any observation one has at least a rudimentary “theory” – as this process 
goes in a loop. Observation is done in time and during observation we act, 
which demands at least basic theoretical understanding. Of course sophisticated 
observations like those made in CERN are loaded with tons of theory. But there 
is a difference between acting within some system, or acting on a premise that 
what is studied maybe goes outside that systems box. One example is 
generalization of physics from Aristotelian to Newtonian. Within a system, one 
introduces more and more complicated assumptions in order to accommodate for 
observations, but at some point framework must change. There are jumps to more 
generalized frameworks in this process of learning. I see Joe’s logic in 
reality even here – a tension between an existing framework (which a is not 
enough) and the potential new one capable of accommodating for new knowledge. 
So realism would consist in not denying that the world is more than a theory we 
have at hands.

>One would also wonder whether animals without language, would have the 
>possibility to compose and perform music (without human orchestration).

Some birds are singing and birdsong sounds like music. Much of modern music is 
produced almost like a birdsong in a sense that it is not following any rules 
of composition, sometimes it is simply a collection of sounds found in nature. ☺

Best,
Gordana


http://www.mrtc.mdh.se/~gdc/


From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On 
Behalf Of Loet Leydesdorff
Sent: den 21 mars 2011 08:04
To: joe.bren...@bluewin.ch; fis@listas.unizar.es
Subject: Re: [Fis] Hannam's Contentious Postulate. The Peircean Mirror

To paraphrase Antonio Salieri's famous "Prima la musica, dopo le parole", I say 
"first reality, then the signs".

Dear Joseph: “allegro, ma non troppo”!

In the 18th century, “nature” is still considered as God’s creation and 
therefore has priority to our (human) wordings and signings. Thus, one was 
interested in “natural philosophy” and “natural law” as manifestations. 
However, this has eroded. Nowadays, the possibility of theory-free observations 
– e.g., Carnap – is much more doubtful. Most of us will have given up on this 
“realistic” position. One would also wonder whether animals without language, 
would have the possibility to compose and perform music (without human 
orchestration).

It seems important to me to distinguish between the order in which things are 
historically generated (although we have no access to this process than by 
reconstructing this order) and the evolutionary order of control. The latter 
system emerges from the former: order is constructed bottom-up, but control is 
increasingly top-down. The control arrow feeds back on the historical arrow and 
from this perspective the signs come first.

This may not have been included in Pierce’s writings. ☺

With best wishes,
Loet

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Re: [Fis] Hannam's Contentious Postulate. The Peircean Mirror

[Loet Leydesdorff]

To paraphrase Antonio Salieri's famous "Prima la musica, dopo le parole", I say 
"first reality, then the signs".

 

Dear Joseph: “allegro, ma non troppo”!

 

In the 18th century, “nature” is still considered as God’s creation and 
therefore has priority to our (human) wordings and signings. Thus, one was 
interested in “natural philosophy” and “natural law” as manifestations. 
However, this has eroded. Nowadays, the possibility of theory-free observations 
– e.g., Carnap – is much more doubtful. Most of us will have given up on this 
“realistic” position. One would also wonder whether animals without language, 
would have the possibility to compose and perform music (without human 
orchestration).

 

It seems important to me to distinguish between the order in which things are 
historically generated (although we have no access to this process than by 
reconstructing this order) and the evolutionary order of control. The latter 
system emerges from the former: order is constructed bottom-up, but control is 
increasingly top-down. The control arrow feeds back on the historical arrow and 
from this perspective the signs come first. 

 

This may not have been included in Pierce’s writings. J

 

With best wishes, 

Loet

 

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Re: [Fis] Hannam's Contentious Postulate. The Peircean Mirror

[Gavin Ritz]

No sure why one bothers with Peirce’s logic, modern Mathematical Category
theory (CMT) and Topoi offers significant flexibility within mathematics and
logic.
 
Objects and arrows, association law and law of identity in CMT have at least
a mathematical basis.
 
Objects and arrows in CMT solves the problem of functions (processes) and
structure.
 
Further it is possible to build a qualitative Reality Model from CMT.
 
-Original Message-
From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On
Behalf Of joe.bren...@bluewin.ch
Sent: Monday, 21 March 2011 12:19 p.m.
To: colli...@ukzn.ac.za; Pedro C. Marijuan; fis@listas.unizar.es
Subject: Re: [Fis] Hannam's Contentious Postulate. The Peircean Mirror
 
Dear John, Pedro, Jerry and All,
 
Fortunately or unfortunately, I am convinced that for further progress in
information, let alone other matters, some recognition of the limitations of
Peirce may have to be recognized. John's statement that "pragmatics means
action" can be applicable to real processes only if the pragmatics in
question includes ontological (scientific) principles and not only
epistemological classifications. 
 
As Queiroz, Emmeche and El Hani write: "In a Peircean model, Sign, Object
and Interpretant are triadically coupled in a dynamically irreducible
process. In other words, 'information' requires a triadic pattern of
determinative relationships involving the Sign, Object and Interpretant."
Information, in this view, has a "processual nature".
 
In my view, this simply displaces the problem further, since the Peircean
categories themselves are derivative, epistemological constructions which
'mirror', literally and figuratively, the underlying dynamic structure of
the universe as Peirce saw it. The processes referred to by Q, E and EH are
indeed interpreter-dependent objective processes, but they admit that they
cannot be dissociated from the notion of a situated agent. Here, we have
gone outside Peirce, since the discussion of the "agent" and his/her
interactions requires a physical dialectics and logic that is absent in
Peirce. To try to restate my interpretation, to say that for effective
information, or effective semiosis to take place by having a Sign
effectively communicate, by mediating the relation between Object and
Interpretant, a form from the object to Interpretant by changing the state
of the interpreter (emphasis mine) says no more than that information is
something that changes the state of an agent. In the statement that an
effective Sign, by being actualized (sic), has an actual effect on an
interpreter (NOT interpretant), Sign is simply a placeholder for an
undefined real process, since a "Sign defined as a medium for the
communication of a form" is, again, simply an analytic mirror for some
reality that operates according to as yet undefined rules.
 
The Peircean processual approach to information seeks to acquire additional
dynamics by distinguishing it from some structure considered as a totally
static phenomenon. What has been missed are the actual and potential dynamic
aspects of structure and form themselves - a sequence of nucleotides, for
example, not in abstracto, but in a real cell. The consequences for an
augmented theory of information, in which Peirce's work shares the
theoretical space with non-epistemic approaches, follow. To paraphrase
Antonio Salieri's famous "Prima la musica, dopo le parole", I say "first
reality, then the signs".
 
Thank you and best wishes,
 
Joseph
 
      
 
Ursprüngliche Nachricht
Von: colli...@ukzn.ac.za
Datum: 20.03.2011 23:02
An: "Pedro C. Marijuan", 
Betreff: Re: [Fis] Hannam's Contentious Postulate

At 06:09 PM 2011/03/17, Pedro C. Marijuan wrote:
Dear FISers,

Thanks to Loet for his modest proposal "Foundations of the Science of (DIS)
Order"... (when managing the list I really agree!).

The comments by Jerry are much appreciated, indeed: I am eagerly waiting for
opinions and criticisms on the "knowledge recombination" theme. However,
criticisms obliged, his whole approach to science and knowledge looks to me
very interesting though rather biased.  Rhetorically, for our foundations of
info & knowledge we cannot rely on particular philosophical positions
(Peircean philosophy---sorry to disagree with John too) but on
scientific-disciplinary "facts" or theories. When Jerry talks about "new
interpretations of signs from nature" he is cavalierly forgetting the action
side, the practice: "In the beginning was the deed!" (Faustian motto
emphasized by neuroscientist Alain Berthoz in his "The Brain's Sense of
Movement", 2000 the "fact" and not the "concept"). In neuroscience, in
ecological psychology & the motor approach to consciousness, the perceptual
cycle of action-perception can

Re: [Fis] Hannam's Contentious Postulate. The Peircean Mirror

[joe.bren...@bluewin.ch]

Dear John, Pedro, Jerry and All,
Fortunately or unfortunately, I am convinced that for further progress in 
information, let alone other matters, some recognition of the limitations of 
Peirce may have to be recognized. John's statement that "pragmatics means 
action" can be applicable to real processes only if the pragmatics in question 
includes ontological (scientific) principles and not only epistemological 
classifications. 
As Queiroz, Emmeche and El Hani write: "In a Peircean model, Sign, Object and 
Interpretant are triadically coupled in a dynamically irreducible process. In 
other words, 'information' requires a triadic pattern of determinative 
relationships involving the Sign, Object and Interpretant." Information, in 
this view, has a "processual nature".
In my view, this simply displaces the problem further, since the Peircean 
categories themselves are derivative, epistemological constructions which 
'mirror', literally and figuratively, the underlying dynamic structure of the 
universe as Peirce saw it. The processes referred to by Q, E and EH are indeed 
interpreter-dependent objective processes, but they admit that they cannot be 
dissociated from the notion of a situated agent. Here, we have gone outside 
Peirce, since the discussion of the "agent" and his/her interactions requires a 
physical dialectics and logic that is absent in Peirce. To try to restate my 
interpretation, to say that for effective information, or effective semiosis to 
take place by having a Sign effectively communicate, by mediating the relation 
between Object and Interpretant, a form from the object to Interpretant by 
changing the state of the interpreter (emphasis mine) says no more than that 
information is something that changes the state of an agent. In the statement 
that an effective Sign, by being actualized (sic), has an actual effect on an 
interpreter (NOT interpretant), Sign is simply a placeholder for an undefined 
real process, since a "Sign defined as a medium for the communication of a 
form" is, again, simply an analytic mirror for some reality that operates 
according to as yet undefined rules.
The Peircean processual approach to information seeks to acquire additional 
dynamics by distinguishing it from some structure considered as a totally 
static phenomenon. What has been missed are the actual and potential dynamic 
aspects of structure and form themselves - a sequence of nucleotides, for 
example, not in abstracto, but in a real cell. The consequences for an 
augmented theory of information, in which Peirce's work shares the theoretical 
space with non-epistemic approaches, follow. To paraphrase Antonio Salieri's 
famous "Prima la musica, dopo le parole", I say "first reality, then the signs".
Thank you and best wishes,
Joseph
  



Ursprüngliche Nachricht

Von: colli...@ukzn.ac.za

Datum: 20.03.2011 23:02

An: "Pedro C. Marijuan", 

Betreff: Re: [Fis] Hannam's Contentious Postulate



At 06:09 PM 2011/03/17, Pedro C. Marijuan wrote:

Dear
FISers,


Thanks to Loet for his modest proposal "Foundations of the Science
of (DIS) Order"... (when managing the list I really
agree!).


The comments by Jerry are much appreciated, indeed: I am eagerly waiting
for opinions and criticisms on the "knowledge recombination"
theme. However, criticisms obliged, his whole approach to science and
knowledge looks to me very interesting though rather biased. 
Rhetorically, for our foundations of info & knowledge we cannot rely
on particular philosophical positions (Peircean philosophy---sorry to
disagree with John too) but on scientific-disciplinary "facts"
or theories. When Jerry talks about "new interpretations of signs
from nature" he is cavalierly forgetting the action side, the
practice: "In the beginning was the deed!" (Faustian motto
emphasized by neuroscientist Alain Berthoz in his "The Brain's Sense
of Movement", 2000 the "fact" and not the
"concept"). In neuroscience, in ecological psychology & the
motor approach to consciousness, the perceptual cycle of
action-perception cannot be reduced to any of the two branches alone. In
cognitive terms, theory has always to accompany practice, and viceversa.
Methologies, measurements, etc., are a crucial ingredient of knowledge,
that refer to our own actions ---not just to "signs" of
nature.

Sorry, Pedro, but I fail to understand your distinction between a
Peircean view and the one you are advocating. Peirce based his views on
pragmatics, which means action. There is something severely wrong
here.


Regards,

John



Professor John Collier, Acting HoS  and Acting Deputy HoS

  
colli...@ukzn.ac.za

Philosophy and Ethics, University of KwaZulu-Natal, Durban 4041 South
Africa

T: +27 (31) 260 3248 / 260 2292   F:
+27 (31) 260 3031


http://collier.ukzn.ac.za/








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