Re: [Flashcoders] RE: Pricing a Freelance Project
I do not do fixed bid projects. I always do TM NET 15/30, and don't have an issue selling my work that way. If you want me to do a fixed bid project, I'm bidding on exactly what the scope is right now. If there is any change in scope, production will stop as I assess the impact such a change will have on the schedule (my assessment is billable), and take time to modify the contract to reflect the change in scope and cost, and you will need to review and approve these changes in writing, all of which take time spent not developing and puts your deadline in jeopardy. However, with TM, I get paid for the work I do, and you have full flexibility in making as many changes as you like, with the knowledge that development never stops, though the deadline may be affected by your changes. Something to that effect. Kerry Thompson wrote: Steven Sacks wrote: You need to charge for time spent babysitting the client. That's billable time. Absolutely true, with one kicker: a fixed bid. A lot of clients want to shift the risk to you, the freelancer, so they ask for a fixed-price bid rather than an hourly rate. My advice is to be very, very careful with these. My experience shows that clients rarely, if ever, know just what they need. They will give you an idea, but there will inevitably be extras that simply must be done. Initial estimates of the amount of work needed are almost always off by a factor of at least two, often up to a factor of 10. If you underbid one of these contracts, you could spend a year to earn $20,000. Be up front with the client in this case. You are bidding on the project as it is currently designed. Changes and additions will be billed extra. You must do this to survive, or your client will bury you with feature creep. Be positive about it, of course. When they request an additional feature, say Sure, we can do that. It will cost you $4,000 and add two weeks to the schedule. I'll get started on it just as soon as I get an amendment to the contract. Also, on a fixed-bid contract, get at least 25% up front. If you bill only on milestones, can you live off your savings until they approve the prototype, or the alpha? I can't--I'm lucky that my wife has a well-paying job. Cordially, Kerry Thompson ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] RE: Pricing a Freelance Project
Hi Steven, excuse my ignorance, but as a non native English person what is TM NET 15/30? Couldn't find it on google. regards, Hans On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 8:23 AM, Steven Sacks flash...@stevensacks.netwrote: I do not do fixed bid projects. I always do TM NET 15/30, and don't have an issue selling my work that way. If you want me to do a fixed bid project, I'm bidding on exactly what the scope is right now. If there is any change in scope, production will stop as I assess the impact such a change will have on the schedule (my assessment is billable), and take time to modify the contract to reflect the change in scope and cost, and you will need to review and approve these changes in writing, all of which take time spent not developing and puts your deadline in jeopardy. However, with TM, I get paid for the work I do, and you have full flexibility in making as many changes as you like, with the knowledge that development never stops, though the deadline may be affected by your changes. Something to that effect. Kerry Thompson wrote: Steven Sacks wrote: You need to charge for time spent babysitting the client. That's billable time. Absolutely true, with one kicker: a fixed bid. A lot of clients want to shift the risk to you, the freelancer, so they ask for a fixed-price bid rather than an hourly rate. My advice is to be very, very careful with these. My experience shows that clients rarely, if ever, know just what they need. They will give you an idea, but there will inevitably be extras that simply must be done. Initial estimates of the amount of work needed are almost always off by a factor of at least two, often up to a factor of 10. If you underbid one of these contracts, you could spend a year to earn $20,000. Be up front with the client in this case. You are bidding on the project as it is currently designed. Changes and additions will be billed extra. You must do this to survive, or your client will bury you with feature creep. Be positive about it, of course. When they request an additional feature, say Sure, we can do that. It will cost you $4,000 and add two weeks to the schedule. I'll get started on it just as soon as I get an amendment to the contract. Also, on a fixed-bid contract, get at least 25% up front. If you bill only on milestones, can you live off your savings until they approve the prototype, or the alpha? I can't--I'm lucky that my wife has a well-paying job. Cordially, Kerry Thompson ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] RE: Pricing a Freelance Project
Hi All, Thanks for all the great advice. Seems like everyone is suggesting around the £40-60 mark if quoting per hour. But if quoting a fixed amount then it should be considerably more. Cheers! 2009/10/12 Hans Wichman j.c.wich...@objectpainters.com Hi Steven, excuse my ignorance, but as a non native English person what is TM NET 15/30? Couldn't find it on google. regards, Hans On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 8:23 AM, Steven Sacks flash...@stevensacks.net wrote: I do not do fixed bid projects. I always do TM NET 15/30, and don't have an issue selling my work that way. If you want me to do a fixed bid project, I'm bidding on exactly what the scope is right now. If there is any change in scope, production will stop as I assess the impact such a change will have on the schedule (my assessment is billable), and take time to modify the contract to reflect the change in scope and cost, and you will need to review and approve these changes in writing, all of which take time spent not developing and puts your deadline in jeopardy. However, with TM, I get paid for the work I do, and you have full flexibility in making as many changes as you like, with the knowledge that development never stops, though the deadline may be affected by your changes. Something to that effect. Kerry Thompson wrote: Steven Sacks wrote: You need to charge for time spent babysitting the client. That's billable time. Absolutely true, with one kicker: a fixed bid. A lot of clients want to shift the risk to you, the freelancer, so they ask for a fixed-price bid rather than an hourly rate. My advice is to be very, very careful with these. My experience shows that clients rarely, if ever, know just what they need. They will give you an idea, but there will inevitably be extras that simply must be done. Initial estimates of the amount of work needed are almost always off by a factor of at least two, often up to a factor of 10. If you underbid one of these contracts, you could spend a year to earn $20,000. Be up front with the client in this case. You are bidding on the project as it is currently designed. Changes and additions will be billed extra. You must do this to survive, or your client will bury you with feature creep. Be positive about it, of course. When they request an additional feature, say Sure, we can do that. It will cost you $4,000 and add two weeks to the schedule. I'll get started on it just as soon as I get an amendment to the contract. Also, on a fixed-bid contract, get at least 25% up front. If you bill only on milestones, can you live off your savings until they approve the prototype, or the alpha? I can't--I'm lucky that my wife has a well-paying job. Cordially, Kerry Thompson ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders -- Mike Cann http://www.mikecann.co.uk/ http://www.artificialgames.co.uk/ ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] RE: Pricing a Freelance Project
I heared you could take your estimate and multiply it by Math.PI: that's the correct estimate. estimates of the amount of work needed are almost always off by a factor of ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] RE: Pricing a Freelance Project
I'm also curious about this term. 2009/10/12 Hans Wichman j.c.wich...@objectpainters.com Hi Steven, excuse my ignorance, but as a non native English person what is TM NET 15/30? Couldn't find it on google. regards, Hans On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 8:23 AM, Steven Sacks flash...@stevensacks.net wrote: I do not do fixed bid projects. I always do TM NET 15/30, and don't have an issue selling my work that way. If you want me to do a fixed bid project, I'm bidding on exactly what the scope is right now. If there is any change in scope, production will stop as I assess the impact such a change will have on the schedule (my assessment is billable), and take time to modify the contract to reflect the change in scope and cost, and you will need to review and approve these changes in writing, all of which take time spent not developing and puts your deadline in jeopardy. However, with TM, I get paid for the work I do, and you have full flexibility in making as many changes as you like, with the knowledge that development never stops, though the deadline may be affected by your changes. Something to that effect. Kerry Thompson wrote: Steven Sacks wrote: You need to charge for time spent babysitting the client. That's billable time. Absolutely true, with one kicker: a fixed bid. A lot of clients want to shift the risk to you, the freelancer, so they ask for a fixed-price bid rather than an hourly rate. My advice is to be very, very careful with these. My experience shows that clients rarely, if ever, know just what they need. They will give you an idea, but there will inevitably be extras that simply must be done. Initial estimates of the amount of work needed are almost always off by a factor of at least two, often up to a factor of 10. If you underbid one of these contracts, you could spend a year to earn $20,000. Be up front with the client in this case. You are bidding on the project as it is currently designed. Changes and additions will be billed extra. You must do this to survive, or your client will bury you with feature creep. Be positive about it, of course. When they request an additional feature, say Sure, we can do that. It will cost you $4,000 and add two weeks to the schedule. I'll get started on it just as soon as I get an amendment to the contract. Also, on a fixed-bid contract, get at least 25% up front. If you bill only on milestones, can you live off your savings until they approve the prototype, or the alpha? I can't--I'm lucky that my wife has a well-paying job. Cordially, Kerry Thompson ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] RE: Pricing a Freelance Project
I think it's time and materials and he's giving them 15 or 30 days to pay. Karl Sent from losPhone On Oct 12, 2009, at 6:50 AM, Julio Protzek julioprot...@gmail.com wrote: I'm also curious about this term. 2009/10/12 Hans Wichman j.c.wich...@objectpainters.com Hi Steven, excuse my ignorance, but as a non native English person what is TM NET 15/30? Couldn't find it on google. regards, Hans On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 8:23 AM, Steven Sacks flash...@stevensacks.net wrote: I do not do fixed bid projects. I always do TM NET 15/30, and don't have an issue selling my work that way. If you want me to do a fixed bid project, I'm bidding on exactly what the scope is right now. If there is any change in scope, production will stop as I assess the impact such a change will have on the schedule (my assessment is billable), and take time to modify the contract to reflect the change in scope and cost, and you will need to review and approve these changes in writing, all of which take time spent not developing and puts your deadline in jeopardy. However, with TM, I get paid for the work I do, and you have full flexibility in making as many changes as you like, with the knowledge that development never stops, though the deadline may be affected by your changes. Something to that effect. Kerry Thompson wrote: Steven Sacks wrote: You need to charge for time spent babysitting the client. That's billable time. Absolutely true, with one kicker: a fixed bid. A lot of clients want to shift the risk to you, the freelancer, so they ask for a fixed- price bid rather than an hourly rate. My advice is to be very, very careful with these. My experience shows that clients rarely, if ever, know just what they need. They will give you an idea, but there will inevitably be extras that simply must be done. Initial estimates of the amount of work needed are almost always off by a factor of at least two, often up to a factor of 10. If you underbid one of these contracts, you could spend a year to earn $20,000. Be up front with the client in this case. You are bidding on the project as it is currently designed. Changes and additions will be billed extra. You must do this to survive, or your client will bury you with feature creep. Be positive about it, of course. When they request an additional feature, say Sure, we can do that. It will cost you $4,000 and add two weeks to the schedule. I'll get started on it just as soon as I get an amendment to the contract. Also, on a fixed-bid contract, get at least 25% up front. If you bill only on milestones, can you live off your savings until they approve the prototype, or the alpha? I can't--I'm lucky that my wife has a well-paying job. Cordially, Kerry Thompson ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
[Flashcoders] RE: Pricing a Freelance Project
No comments on your rates, as that is highly individual. Just one suggestion, ask the client what their budget is before submitting a quote. That way you will know what the limits are and if their cost-frame is in your acceptable target area. Cyrelle Gerson -- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 16:44:49 +0100 From: mike cann mike.c...@gmail.com Subject: [Flashcoders] Pricing a Freelance Project To: Flash Coders List flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com Message-ID: c695c4070910110844q377cef69g278cf2e6a13ef...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi List! I have been asked to price a freelance project and as its my first proper freelance project im not sure what to charge per hour. -- Mike Cann http://www.mikecann.co.uk/ http://www.artificialgames.co.uk/ ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
RE: [Flashcoders] RE: Pricing a Freelance Project
To figure what your hourly rate, take what you expect to earn in a year and divide it by 2,000--that's approximately the number of hours a full-time worker works in a year. Now double that, because you will have no benefits like paid holidays or sick leave, no insurance (not as much an issue in Great Britain as it is here in the colonies), and the like. Also, you will have down time when you will have no work. Plus, you need to spend non-billable hours getting projects, doing your own bookkeeping, babysitting the client, and the like. So, if you were earning £40,000 per year, that averages out to £20 per hour. Doubling it brings you to £40 per hour. Now, here's the kicker. Freelancers (I'm one) charge differently, depending on a number of factors. A long-term contract (6 months) you should bill at a lower hourly rate, because you won't have to spend the time and effort to get smaller jobs, bill them, collect, do your bookkeeping, and the like. An emergency contract you should charge extra for. If the client absolutely must have it by the end of the week, charge double. You can bet your career that the client and you have underestimated the scope of the project, so you're going to really be under the gun. Don't be shy about it either--we all do it. It's not because we have the client over a barrel, either. It's because we will have to drop everything, including any social life, and quite possibly a couple of nights of sleep, to meet their deadline. Also, consider the contract. How certain are you the client will pay? I've had deadbeat clients--over the years I've done probably $5,000 of unpaid work. I just collected on an invoice due last April, and only then because I threatened to take them to court. I later found out they have a record of that sort of thing--a friend had to wait two years to collect on one invoice, and he was a former employee who departed on good terms! If your client is Wellogic of Cambridge, MA, get your payment up front--all of it. If you want to see what I did that took them so long to pay, just go to www.wellogic.com. Right there on the home page, top center, the animated text, and the Certifications and Awards box in the lower right. BTW, it was a rush job, but I only charged them $600 because I expected to get more work from them. Fat chance now! So, a lot of things to consider. Length of contract; hourly or set price; client's reputation; your own experience and skills; what you need to live on; and other factors. By the way, just as a comparison, I'm about to sign a 6-month contract at $50/hr., and I'm a programmer with 20+ years' experience, including direct experience in exactly what they're doing. That may be a tad low, but not much for that length, especially as it is likely to be extended. Plus, the client is a major publisher with a good track record with contractors. Cordially, Kerry Thompson ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] RE: Pricing a Freelance Project
Now that is an answer! Karl Sent from losPhone On Oct 11, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Kerry Thompson al...@cyberiantiger.biz wrote: To figure what your hourly rate, take what you expect to earn in a year and divide it by 2,000--that's approximately the number of hours a full-time worker works in a year. Now double that, because you will have no benefits like paid holidays or sick leave, no insurance (not as much an issue in Great Britain as it is here in the colonies), and the like. Also, you will have down time when you will have no work. Plus, you need to spend non-billable hours getting projects, doing your own bookkeeping, babysitting the client, and the like. So, if you were earning ￡40,000 per year, that averages out to ￡20 p er hour. Doubling it brings you to ￡40 per hour. Now, here's the kicker. Freelancers (I'm one) charge differently, depending on a number of factors. A long-term contract (6 months) you should bill at a lower hourly rate, because you won't have to spend the time and effort to get smaller jobs, bill them, collect, do your bookkeeping, and the like. An emergency contract you should charge extra for. If the client absolutely must have it by the end of the week, charge double. You can bet your career that the client and you have underestimated the scope of the project, so you're going to really be under the gun. Don't be shy about it either--we all do it. It's not because we have the client over a barrel, either. It's because we will have to drop everything, including any social life, and quite possibly a couple of nights of sleep, to meet their deadline. Also, consider the contract. How certain are you the client will pay? I've had deadbeat clients--over the years I've done probably $5,000 of unpaid work. I just collected on an invoice due last April, and only then because I threatened to take them to court. I later found out they have a record of that sort of thing--a friend had to wait two years to collect on one invoice, and he was a former employee who departed on good terms! If your client is Wellogic of Cambridge, MA, get your payment up front--all of it. If you want to see what I did that took them so long to pay, just go to www.wellogic.com. Right there on the home page, top center, the animated text, and the Certifications and Awards box in the lower right. BTW, it was a rush job, but I only charged them $600 because I expected to get more work from them. Fat chance now! So, a lot of things to consider. Length of contract; hourly or set price; client's reputation; your own experience and skills; what you need to live on; and other factors. By the way, just as a comparison, I'm about to sign a 6-month contract at $50/hr., and I'm a programmer with 20+ years' experience, including direct experience in exactly what they're doing. That may be a tad low, but not much for that length, especially as it is likely to be extended. Plus, the client is a major publisher with a good track record with contractors. Cordially, Kerry Thompson ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] RE: Pricing a Freelance Project
I'd say £40 to £50 p/h is entirely reasonable for this kind of freelance work. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] RE: Pricing a Freelance Project
You need to charge for time spent babysitting the client. That's billable time. Any time you spend that could be spent working for somebody else is billable. If you're on the phone with them or emailing back and forth, it's billable. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
RE: [Flashcoders] RE: Pricing a Freelance Project
Steven Sacks wrote: You need to charge for time spent babysitting the client. That's billable time. Absolutely true, with one kicker: a fixed bid. A lot of clients want to shift the risk to you, the freelancer, so they ask for a fixed-price bid rather than an hourly rate. My advice is to be very, very careful with these. My experience shows that clients rarely, if ever, know just what they need. They will give you an idea, but there will inevitably be extras that simply must be done. Initial estimates of the amount of work needed are almost always off by a factor of at least two, often up to a factor of 10. If you underbid one of these contracts, you could spend a year to earn $20,000. Be up front with the client in this case. You are bidding on the project as it is currently designed. Changes and additions will be billed extra. You must do this to survive, or your client will bury you with feature creep. Be positive about it, of course. When they request an additional feature, say Sure, we can do that. It will cost you $4,000 and add two weeks to the schedule. I'll get started on it just as soon as I get an amendment to the contract. Also, on a fixed-bid contract, get at least 25% up front. If you bill only on milestones, can you live off your savings until they approve the prototype, or the alpha? I can't--I'm lucky that my wife has a well-paying job. Cordially, Kerry Thompson ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
