Re: [Flashcoders] Backend compiled Java or scripted PHP?
Wow, this seems to be one of those topics where everyone has strong but differing opinions, Atila java over PHP. Just few points why: Nice comparative overview HermitIt seems to depend on what you will be using it for ultimately. BINGO, we have a winner folks... Ron, Eclipse, Spring, Hibernate, AXIS and Java is a pretty nice toolkit. I agree wholeheartedly, but is it the most productive way to handle the small stuff. I don't have the luxury of having server drones (apologies to the server drones) taming the backend, so quick and dirty is a development paradigm for me. Muzak Flash/Flex + Coldfusion + Flash/Flex Remoting. I've seen the big increase in traffic on all things Coldfusion, but I seemed to have missed the reason why (been under a rock). I usually try to avoid proprietory stuff when I can and have always ignored Coldfusion for it's limited hosting etc... I'll have to research what all the recent traffic is about and if there's a need to revise this opinion. Flashcoders has once again provided an interesting, informative, and balanced overview. What I get from it is, in general (with untold exceptions), - professional programmers in general prefer the structure of Java. The majority here. I've had enough formal training to appreciate this. - PHP seems to be preferred by the home grown just get it done programmers who are, like me, spawned by opportunities inherent on the internet. As a one man operation I sympathize - the dividing line seems to be scale. (How big is the project, how much traffic will it generate, how computationally expensive and or complex). There are many situations that don't affect the scalability or maintainability of a site, scripting is too useful a tool not to have available. That being said, while more complex things can and are built with PHP, there's a point at which the advantages of Java overcome it's disadvantages (taming tomcat, longer development times, etc...). The big question is where do you draw the line? Weldon Best is good. Better is best. Lisa Grunwald ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Backend compiled Java or scripted PHP?
Answering about where you draw the line: usually nowhere. The technology you'll use is decided upon your own skills/experience/existing assets and setup you have on the server. Key is interoperability. You can actually have a mixed PHP/Java solutions, and write C++ extensions for PHP. If it works, and the performance/features are sufficient for your task at hand, then it works, there are no other conditions and no hidden obstacles. All of these technologies scale with the proper architecture in place. - the dividing line seems to be scale. (How big is the project, how much traffic will it generate, how computationally expensive and or complex). There are many situations that don't affect the scalability or maintainability of a site, scripting is too useful a tool not to have available. That being said, while more complex things can and are built with PHP, there's a point at which the advantages of Java overcome it's disadvantages (taming tomcat, longer development times, etc...). The big question is where do you draw the line? Weldon ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Backend compiled Java or scripted PHP?
What's a guy to beloieve? Any opin... any more opinions? PHP is a KIA, Java is a 1 ton 4x4 Dodge Ram pickup. Both can be used to get to the grocery store, but the trip also involves carrying a load of concrete blocks It seems to depend on what you will be using it for ultimately. I've been using ActionScript for a while now, but my next project will require a lot more server side work. In the past I've used PHP, but only in a pidgin kind of way. alternatively, I have some Java skills, though not specifically for the web. Either way I have to spend some time developing an appropriate skill level, the question becomes, which skills. The times I've used PHP, it seemed straight forward enough, and from what I've read Java is a little trickier to implement on the web (correct?). On the other hand, PHP is a pretty specific niche whereas Java has a much wider usefulness (correct?) There are a lot of strong opinions out there. Andreessen: PHP succeeding where Java isn't http://news.com.com/2100-1012-5903187.html?tag=tb and in response, How they can compare PHP with Java at all? (most people who are praising PHP are either bad programmers or they are not programmers at all) http://news.com.com/5208-1012_3-0.html?forumID=1threadID=10712messageID=78718start=0 PHP is faster to develop, java is faster to run, or is that runs faster? PHP is harder to maintain, and Java has more tools ...etc... What's a guy to beloieve? Any opin... any more opinions? ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: [Flashcoders] Backend compiled Java or scripted PHP?
Well, in my opinion, Java is much more OOP. PHP is really nothing more than just scripts. It will eventually hit a ceiling and be limited in what it can do. Java, on the other hand, is much more robust, which is why the majority of large corporations still use Java as their application backbone. But as with anything too complex, it's also very complex to set up. Java will need its own application container/server to run on and setting that up takes a lot of time, money and even more effort to get it working right. PHP on the other hand, is very easy to implement and deploy. It can be quite powerful if used correctly and there are tons of frameworks out for PHP to help lighten development time. I would say to look at your requirements and see what the best fit for your needs are. David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Weldon MacDonald Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 12:01 PM To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: [Flashcoders] Backend compiled Java or scripted PHP? I've been using ActionScript for a while now, but my next project will require a lot more server side work. In the past I've used PHP, but only in a pidgin kind of way. alternatively, I have some Java skills, though not specifically for the web. Either way I have to spend some time developing an appropriate skill level, the question becomes, which skills. The times I've used PHP, it seemed straight forward enough, and from what I've read Java is a little trickier to implement on the web (correct?). On the other hand, PHP is a pretty specific niche whereas Java has a much wider usefulness (correct?) There are a lot of strong opinions out there. Andreessen: PHP succeeding where Java isn't http://news.com.com/2100-1012-5903187.html?tag=tb and in response, How they can compare PHP with Java at all? (most people who are praising PHP are either bad programmers or they are not programmers at all) http://news.com.com/5208-1012_3-0.html?forumID=1threadID=10712messageID=78 718start=0 PHP is faster to develop, java is faster to run, or is that runs faster? PHP is harder to maintain, and Java has more tools ...etc... What's a guy to beloieve? Any opin... any more opinions? ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Backend compiled Java or scripted PHP?
You have to worry much less about Memory leaks, and syntactically, the language is simpler than C++, so saying that it's become more complicated than C++ is total bull. Still, they're just different beasts. I'd rather write most web apps in PHP, but you could never write your own server in PHP either. PHP is really just about doing things with HTML. The filesystem, image manipulation, and other functions are secondary to that. Java is meant for applications, which means that you can make it mangle HTML, but it takes longer. You could never write a server in PHP, but if you wanted to throw a simple XML file at a Flash application, Java would be total overkill. --- Weldon MacDonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've been using ActionScript for a while now, but my next project will require a lot more server side work. In the past I've used PHP, but only in a pidgin kind of way. alternatively, I have some Java skills, though not specifically for the web. Either way I have to spend some time developing an appropriate skill level, the question becomes, which skills. The times I've used PHP, it seemed straight forward enough, and from what I've read Java is a little trickier to implement on the web (correct?). On the other hand, PHP is a pretty specific niche whereas Java has a much wider usefulness (correct?) There are a lot of strong opinions out there. Andreessen: PHP succeeding where Java isn't http://news.com.com/2100-1012-5903187.html?tag=tb and in response, How they can compare PHP with Java at all? (most people who are praising PHP are either bad programmers or they are not programmers at all) http://news.com.com/5208-1012_3-0.html?forumID=1threadID=10712messageID=78718start=0 PHP is faster to develop, java is faster to run, or is that runs faster? PHP is harder to maintain, and Java has more tools ...etc... What's a guy to beloieve? Any opin... any more opinions? ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware protection. http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/norton/index.php ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Backend compiled Java or scripted PHP?
I haven't done any work in PHP so I can't really comment on its usefulness, but I've found doing web stuff in Java isn't particularly hard. There are a number of possibilities for doing Java work on the server that makes it easier too. We use Apache Tomcat here. It handles all the HTTP handling and such and makes things pretty easy, and we do some very complex processing. However, as others have mentioned, if you're just doing simple processing tasks then it's most likely overkill. As far as building up a skillet, I think Java is more generally useful (you'll be doing server work but the skills you learn can be applied to client code as well, and even embedded stuff to some extent, though I haven't done any of that). PHP, on the other hand, tends to be more limited in where it's used (from my understanding). -Andy On 7/19/07, Joshua Sera [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You have to worry much less about Memory leaks, and syntactically, the language is simpler than C++, so saying that it's become more complicated than C++ is total bull. Still, they're just different beasts. I'd rather write most web apps in PHP, but you could never write your own server in PHP either. PHP is really just about doing things with HTML. The filesystem, image manipulation, and other functions are secondary to that. Java is meant for applications, which means that you can make it mangle HTML, but it takes longer. You could never write a server in PHP, but if you wanted to throw a simple XML file at a Flash application, Java would be total overkill. --- Weldon MacDonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've been using ActionScript for a while now, but my next project will require a lot more server side work. In the past I've used PHP, but only in a pidgin kind of way. alternatively, I have some Java skills, though not specifically for the web. Either way I have to spend some time developing an appropriate skill level, the question becomes, which skills. The times I've used PHP, it seemed straight forward enough, and from what I've read Java is a little trickier to implement on the web (correct?). On the other hand, PHP is a pretty specific niche whereas Java has a much wider usefulness (correct?) There are a lot of strong opinions out there. Andreessen: PHP succeeding where Java isn't http://news.com.com/2100-1012-5903187.html?tag=tb and in response, How they can compare PHP with Java at all? (most people who are praising PHP are either bad programmers or they are not programmers at all) http://news.com.com/5208-1012_3-0.html?forumID=1threadID=10712messageID=78718start=0 PHP is faster to develop, java is faster to run, or is that runs faster? PHP is harder to maintain, and Java has more tools ...etc... What's a guy to beloieve? Any opin... any more opinions? ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware protection. http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/norton/index.php ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Backend compiled Java or scripted PHP?
I guess it depends on what you know and what you need. PHP is no more harder to maintain than ActionScript - it all depends on who's coding it. Personally, I really like PHP - the syntax is similar enough to ActionScript that development in it is quite straightforward for an AS person. If you're making executables then Java of course would be better, but if you're creating server-side stuff for Flash movies then I'd recommend PHP... I think it's a bit like mac's vs pc's - they both work fine - use what works for you. Dave - Head Developer http://www.blurredistinction.com Adobe Community Expert http://www.adobe.com/communities/experts/ ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Backend compiled Java or scripted PHP?
I used both PHP and Java for server-side development, and although my clients mostly ask for PHP (this is due to the strange PHP loving of hosting providers here), I far more prefer Java. Just few points why: Language features # PHP - no strict typing - horror of automatic type conversions (by the way it also increases vulnerability; PHP is the only language where 5 apples * 3 astronauts results in 15 :)) - limited OOP # Java + strict typing + full OOP + generics - a little bit defective generics - lack of properties Technologies and APIs # PHP - lack of a well-structured and designed standard class library - no standard APIs (PHP's builtin APIs are no more than an unorganized stack of functions, which use different aspects, follow different conventions, etc.) - no standard database access layer - no standard templating system (for web development) - limited implementations of standard technologies (XML, SOAP, etc.) + some efforts to create a standard library (PEAR), but it is still seems to be a random collection of unrelated packages - new versions (including even subversions) are often incompatible with previuos ones, which causes a bunch of extra work for updating older applications # Java + huge class library + standard database access layer (JDBC) + standard and effective templating system (JSP, JSF) + well-designed and powerful third-party technologies (Hibernate, Struts, etc.) + new versions are compatible with previous ones Maintenance others # PHP + multiplatform + almost doesn't require expertise (read 1-2 tutorials and setup your own server) - applications are distributed as source files by default (there are commercial bytecode compilers) + cheap hosting and there is a huge number of service providers (if you do not want to have your own server) # Java + multiplatform - requires more knowledge and experience - requires relatively stronger hardware + applications are distributed in compiled (bytecode) form (but there are decompilers of course) - relatively more expensive hosting, often with limited access (Java applications - especially bigger ones - perform best if they are hosted on your own server, which of course increases expenses) In general both PHP and Java are suitable for developing relatively small applications, but as the size of the application increases the PHP code requires more and more attention and work to keep it well-structured, easy to maintain, etc., while Java's advanteges become more and more clear. If somebody is a well-trained, skilled and experienced developer, he/she can develop huge and well-organized applications in PHP, too, but it is a lot easier in Java. In PHP you have to create and write a lot of things from scratch, and the lack of some useful language features (especially type checking) requires a lot of care and additional work. Although the developers of PHP work hard to make it better, it still suffers from the fact, that originally it was created for far simpler purposes than it's todays usage, while Java was targeted for creating big (and also small) applications from the very beginnings. And one more subjective aspect: I know people who migrated to Java (or .NET, which is very similar) from PHP, but I don't know anyone who dropped Java (or .NET) in favour of PHP. PHP is very wide-spread technology, but it doesn't mean that it is the best one. I can agree that most of the dynamic sites on the internet have PHP as their back-end (I have no statistics, but think it's around 80-90%), but the profit produced by these sites is no more than 5% of the total and the remaining 10-20% of Java, .NET, etc. based sites produce the other 95%. IMHO of course :) Attila =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From:Weldon MacDonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Flashcoders mailing list flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com Date:Thursday, July 19, 2007, 6:01:13 PM Subject: [Flashcoders] Backend compiled Java or scripted PHP? --===-- I've been using ActionScript for a while now, but my next project will require a lot more server side work. In the past I've used PHP, but only in a pidgin kind of way. alternatively, I have some Java skills, though not specifically for the web. Either way I have to spend some time developing an appropriate skill level, the question becomes, which skills. The times I've used PHP, it seemed straight forward enough, and from what I've read Java is a little trickier to implement on the web (correct?). On the other hand, PHP is a pretty specific niche whereas Java has a much wider usefulness (correct?) There are a lot of strong opinions out there. Andreessen: PHP succeeding where Java isn't http://news.com.com/2100-1012-5903187.html?tag=tb and in response, How they can compare PHP with Java at all?
Re: [Flashcoders] Backend compiled Java or scripted PHP?
Eclipse, Spring, Hibernate, AXIS and Java is a pretty nice toolkit. Ron David Ngo wrote: Well, in my opinion, Java is much more OOP. PHP is really nothing more than just scripts. It will eventually hit a ceiling and be limited in what it can do. Java, on the other hand, is much more robust, which is why the majority of large corporations still use Java as their application backbone. But as with anything too complex, it's also very complex to set up. Java will need its own application container/server to run on and setting that up takes a lot of time, money and even more effort to get it working right. PHP on the other hand, is very easy to implement and deploy. It can be quite powerful if used correctly and there are tons of frameworks out for PHP to help lighten development time. I would say to look at your requirements and see what the best fit for your needs are. David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Weldon MacDonald Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 12:01 PM To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: [Flashcoders] Backend compiled Java or scripted PHP? I've been using ActionScript for a while now, but my next project will require a lot more server side work. In the past I've used PHP, but only in a pidgin kind of way. alternatively, I have some Java skills, though not specifically for the web. Either way I have to spend some time developing an appropriate skill level, the question becomes, which skills. The times I've used PHP, it seemed straight forward enough, and from what I've read Java is a little trickier to implement on the web (correct?). On the other hand, PHP is a pretty specific niche whereas Java has a much wider usefulness (correct?) There are a lot of strong opinions out there. Andreessen: PHP succeeding where Java isn't http://news.com.com/2100-1012-5903187.html?tag=tb and in response, How they can compare PHP with Java at all? (most people who are praising PHP are either bad programmers or they are not programmers at all) http://news.com.com/5208-1012_3-0.html?forumID=1threadID=10712messageID=78 718start=0 PHP is faster to develop, java is faster to run, or is that runs faster? PHP is harder to maintain, and Java has more tools ...etc... What's a guy to beloieve? Any opin... any more opinions? ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: [Flashcoders] Backend compiled Java or scripted PHP?
Sorry if my post came across as pro-PHP. Trust me, I'm anything but that. I guess I should've added some benefits of Java over PHP. Java is much more scalable than PHP (by a long shot). I don't think I would ever want to build anything using PHP, except maybe an image gallery with limited server functionality needed. Everything I've ever had to build with has had some major backend/model framework in place to interface with, and I would much rather have that sledgehammer there to get things working exactly how you want it rather than peruse through 1 lines of script code. If anything, I'm much more of a full-blown OOP/structured language fanboy and would rather work with .NET/Java than touch PHP. David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ron Wheeler Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 9:06 PM To: flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Backend compiled Java or scripted PHP? Eclipse, Spring, Hibernate, AXIS and Java is a pretty nice toolkit. Ron David Ngo wrote: Well, in my opinion, Java is much more OOP. PHP is really nothing more than just scripts. It will eventually hit a ceiling and be limited in what it can do. Java, on the other hand, is much more robust, which is why the majority of large corporations still use Java as their application backbone. But as with anything too complex, it's also very complex to set up. Java will need its own application container/server to run on and setting that up takes a lot of time, money and even more effort to get it working right. PHP on the other hand, is very easy to implement and deploy. It can be quite powerful if used correctly and there are tons of frameworks out for PHP to help lighten development time. I would say to look at your requirements and see what the best fit for your needs are. David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Weldon MacDonald Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 12:01 PM To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: [Flashcoders] Backend compiled Java or scripted PHP? I've been using ActionScript for a while now, but my next project will require a lot more server side work. In the past I've used PHP, but only in a pidgin kind of way. alternatively, I have some Java skills, though not specifically for the web. Either way I have to spend some time developing an appropriate skill level, the question becomes, which skills. The times I've used PHP, it seemed straight forward enough, and from what I've read Java is a little trickier to implement on the web (correct?). On the other hand, PHP is a pretty specific niche whereas Java has a much wider usefulness (correct?) There are a lot of strong opinions out there. Andreessen: PHP succeeding where Java isn't http://news.com.com/2100-1012-5903187.html?tag=tb and in response, How they can compare PHP with Java at all? (most people who are praising PHP are either bad programmers or they are not programmers at all) http://news.com.com/5208-1012_3-0.html?forumID=1threadID=10712messageID=78 718start=0 PHP is faster to develop, java is faster to run, or is that runs faster? PHP is harder to maintain, and Java has more tools ...etc... What's a guy to beloieve? Any opin... any more opinions? ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
