Re: [flexcoders] You are the product
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 01:01:27 -0500 To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] You are the product There is no one size fits all solution if you want to build a complex application. Flash might be a good choice for one and HTML for another and you might need to go native depending on what you are trying to do. Maybe you even want to use Java or Silverlight! When you ask if you can do something in HTML5/JS/CSS you need to keep in mind that many of the specs are not yet finished. It will be several more years before they are even in the recommendation phase. So while it may be possible to do some things in some browsers HTML5/JS/CSS is far from being cross platform ready. Standards move slow by their nature and because of that browser vendors will release features before the standards are finished, many times that means that each browser will have a different API or implementation for the same feature. If you are going to use newer html features it is recommended that you only use the ones that are relatively stable. May of the really cool features that you will want to use are not yet production ready and should be avoided for a real project. Of course if you can limit your scope to a couple browsers there is a lot more you can do. All of that said you can make some really kick ass stuff using the HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript. There are tons of libraries that will abstract out the browser specific things and attempt to make one code base work everywhere. Things like Modernizr, Three.js, Dojo, jQuery, EaselJS ,ect, ect. Even when using these libraries there are performance differences across devices and even browser versions. Making a web application that really works across platforms and devices is not a trivial task. Take a look at some of the stuff you can do https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/demos/ http://www.chromeexperiments.com/ As any good developer knows you should always choose your technology on a per project basis and not because one tech is cooler than the other. In many cases it may be require to have multiple versions of your application to cover your whole target market. The project I am currently working on has a native Android and iOS app, along with an HTML5 and Flash version so that we could get as much coverage as possible. Sure its a pain but if you really want cross platform that is whats required. Some things are not even possible with out a native app on certain devices. Things like file I/O and Audio are very lacking in most browsers. Sometimes you just have to go native. Do not be afraid to learn a new language or two it will be good for you. Also make sure to pick the right tech for what you are trying to build. Again there is no holy grail that will let you write code once and work absolutely everywhere, it just does not exist. Choose your tech wisely! On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 8:29 PM, Rick Winscot rick.wins...@zyche.comwrote: ** The charts? The dashboard? The app as a whole? Yes… I'd recommend looking into the ExtJS samples at Sencha. http://www.sencha.com/products/extjs/ From: Dave Glasser dglas...@pobox.com Reply-To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 17:22:39 -0800 (PST) To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] You are the product Can you do something comparable to this with HTML5/JS/CSS? http://examples2.idashboards.com/idashboards/?guestuser=wputil1dashID=260 If so, do you have any links to examples? From: Guy Morton g...@alchemy.com.au Using HTML/JS/CSS you CAN do apps that look every bit as nice as Flash apps, and they run everywhere.
Re: [flexcoders] You are the product
I really don't want to take a step back when I was in fact hoping to be getting a new version of action script that moved the main language even further forward. I feel the same way. I just dislike JS and going from ActionScript to JavaScript is a step back.. a big one. If you know Java, you're in luck 'cos with GWT you can just write Java apps and they get compiled to JS (with html/css) and you still get to use Maven/Spring/Hibernate and do all the OOP stuff and whatnot. You don't have to look at javascript at all, let alone write a single line of it ! As I mentioned earlier, if FlashBuilder would do something similar, I'd be all over it. And it can be done, haXe already does that. http://haxe.org/ regards, Peter - Original Message - From: Glenn Williams gl...@tinylion.co.uk To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 6:45 PM Subject: RE: [flexcoders] You are the product The samples are ok, but it's the actual langue I dislike. I just doesn't feel very complete to me. I really don't want to take a step back when I was in fact hoping to be getting a new version of action script that moved the main language even further forward. The whole situation just feels like a regression to me. From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rick Winscot Sent: 18 December 2011 01:29 To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] You are the product The charts? The dashboard? The app as a whole? Yes. I'd recommend looking into the ExtJS samples at Sencha. http://www.sencha.com/products/extjs/
Re: [flexcoders] You are the product
All that adobe needs to do is, start attempting to replace the current JS with AS3. Currently AS3 is a compiled language and JS is an interpreted language. Now can adobe come up with an interpreter for as3? On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 9:40 AM, Peter Ginneberge p.ginnebe...@telenet.bewrote: ** I really don't want to take a step back when I was in fact hoping to be getting a new version of action script that moved the main language even further forward. I feel the same way. I just dislike JS and going from ActionScript to JavaScript is a step back.. a big one. If you know Java, you're in luck 'cos with GWT you can just write Java apps and they get compiled to JS (with html/css) and you still get to use Maven/Spring/Hibernate and do all the OOP stuff and whatnot. You don't have to look at javascript at all, let alone write a single line of it ! As I mentioned earlier, if FlashBuilder would do something similar, I'd be all over it. And it can be done, haXe already does that. http://haxe.org/ regards, Peter - Original Message - From: Glenn Williams gl...@tinylion.co.uk To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 6:45 PM Subject: RE: [flexcoders] You are the product The samples are ok, but it's the actual langue I dislike. I just doesn't feel very complete to me. I really don't want to take a step back when I was in fact hoping to be getting a new version of action script that moved the main language even further forward. The whole situation just feels like a regression to me. From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rick Winscot Sent: 18 December 2011 01:29 To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] You are the product The charts? The dashboard? The app as a whole? Yes. I'd recommend looking into the ExtJS samples at Sencha. http://www.sencha.com/products/extjs/ -- Regards, Ganaraj P R
Re: [flexcoders] You are the product
Hmm if Falcon is 10x faster than the previous compiler could you incrementally feed it and have it emit to the browser? Kind of like a progressive download? From: ganaraj p r ganara...@gmail.com Reply-To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 10:17:54 + To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] You are the product All that adobe needs to do is, start attempting to replace the current JS with AS3. Currently AS3 is a compiled language and JS is an interpreted language. Now can adobe come up with an interpreter for as3? On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 9:40 AM, Peter Ginneberge p.ginnebe...@telenet.be wrote: I really don't want to take a step back when I was in fact hoping to be getting a new version of action script that moved the main language even further forward. I feel the same way. I just dislike JS and going from ActionScript to JavaScript is a step back.. a big one. If you know Java, you're in luck 'cos with GWT you can just write Java apps and they get compiled to JS (with html/css) and you still get to use Maven/Spring/Hibernate and do all the OOP stuff and whatnot. You don't have to look at javascript at all, let alone write a single line of it ! As I mentioned earlier, if FlashBuilder would do something similar, I'd be all over it. And it can be done, haXe already does that. http://haxe.org/ regards, Peter - Original Message - From: Glenn Williams gl...@tinylion.co.uk mailto:glenn%40tinylion.co.uk To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 6:45 PM Subject: RE: [flexcoders] You are the product The samples are ok, but it's the actual langue I dislike. I just doesn't feel very complete to me. I really don't want to take a step back when I was in fact hoping to be getting a new version of action script that moved the main language even further forward. The whole situation just feels like a regression to me. From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Rick Winscot Sent: 18 December 2011 01:29 To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] You are the product The charts? The dashboard? The app as a whole? Yes. I'd recommend looking into the ExtJS samples at Sencha. http://www.sencha.com/products/extjs/ -- Regards, Ganaraj P R
Re: [flexcoders] You are the product
Hmmm. I doubt that would be possible. The problem has never been with compiling the code as such. Its about how the compiled code is finally used. Since we are going to be replacing / removing the Flash Player from the picture, whether we compile the code on the server end or compile the code on the client end it really doesnt matter. On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 1:17 PM, Rick Winscot rick.wins...@zyche.comwrote: ** Hmm… if Falcon is 10x faster than the previous compiler – could you incrementally feed it and have it emit to the browser? Kind of like a progressive download? From: ganaraj p r ganara...@gmail.com Reply-To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 10:17:54 + To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] You are the product All that adobe needs to do is, start attempting to replace the current JS with AS3. Currently AS3 is a compiled language and JS is an interpreted language. Now can adobe come up with an interpreter for as3? On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 9:40 AM, Peter Ginneberge p.ginnebe...@telenet.be wrote: ** I really don't want to take a step back when I was in fact hoping to be getting a new version of action script that moved the main language even further forward. I feel the same way. I just dislike JS and going from ActionScript to JavaScript is a step back.. a big one. If you know Java, you're in luck 'cos with GWT you can just write Java apps and they get compiled to JS (with html/css) and you still get to use Maven/Spring/Hibernate and do all the OOP stuff and whatnot. You don't have to look at javascript at all, let alone write a single line of it ! As I mentioned earlier, if FlashBuilder would do something similar, I'd be all over it. And it can be done, haXe already does that. http://haxe.org/ regards, Peter - Original Message - From: Glenn Williams gl...@tinylion.co.uk To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 6:45 PM Subject: RE: [flexcoders] You are the product The samples are ok, but it's the actual langue I dislike. I just doesn't feel very complete to me. I really don't want to take a step back when I was in fact hoping to be getting a new version of action script that moved the main language even further forward. The whole situation just feels like a regression to me. From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rick Winscot Sent: 18 December 2011 01:29 To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] You are the product The charts? The dashboard? The app as a whole? Yes. I'd recommend looking into the ExtJS samples at Sencha. http://www.sencha.com/products/extjs/ -- Regards, Ganaraj P R -- Regards, Ganaraj P R
Re: [flexcoders] You are the product
Hello to you all! Removing Flash Player from the picture, require use a client side technology available in most devices. HTML5 will require, at least, javascript. Since 99 I never really trust javascript because the cross-browser compatibility. Anyone care to illustrate to me what change since then? Do browsers in other devices really stick with one version of javascript? If between browsers, under windows, we don´t got a javascript running without a hole bunch of workarounds, what is the difference for others devices? You don´t wanna flash? I can understand that. But you will need something real to get the juice. You will need RIA. JavaFX can be an option. Silverlight already is, once the win8 got to devices. But none of then will work on iOS. Probably only silverlight will work on win8/metro ( 'will not run plugins... a side the ones from microsoft' ). I will stick with flash/flex for the time being and still waiting on the next best thing involving RIA and Web. Regards, Rogério Gonzalez On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 11:47 AM, ganaraj p r ganara...@gmail.com wrote: ** Hmmm. I doubt that would be possible. The problem has never been with compiling the code as such. Its about how the compiled code is finally used. Since we are going to be replacing / removing the Flash Player from the picture, whether we compile the code on the server end or compile the code on the client end it really doesnt matter. On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 1:17 PM, Rick Winscot rick.wins...@zyche.comwrote: ** Hmm… if Falcon is 10x faster than the previous compiler – could you incrementally feed it and have it emit to the browser? Kind of like a progressive download? From: ganaraj p r ganara...@gmail.com Reply-To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 10:17:54 + To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] You are the product All that adobe needs to do is, start attempting to replace the current JS with AS3. Currently AS3 is a compiled language and JS is an interpreted language. Now can adobe come up with an interpreter for as3? On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 9:40 AM, Peter Ginneberge p.ginnebe...@telenet.be wrote: ** I really don't want to take a step back when I was in fact hoping to be getting a new version of action script that moved the main language even further forward. I feel the same way. I just dislike JS and going from ActionScript to JavaScript is a step back.. a big one. If you know Java, you're in luck 'cos with GWT you can just write Java apps and they get compiled to JS (with html/css) and you still get to use Maven/Spring/Hibernate and do all the OOP stuff and whatnot. You don't have to look at javascript at all, let alone write a single line of it ! As I mentioned earlier, if FlashBuilder would do something similar, I'd be all over it. And it can be done, haXe already does that. http://haxe.org/ regards, Peter - Original Message - From: Glenn Williams gl...@tinylion.co.uk To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 6:45 PM Subject: RE: [flexcoders] You are the product The samples are ok, but it's the actual langue I dislike. I just doesn't feel very complete to me. I really don't want to take a step back when I was in fact hoping to be getting a new version of action script that moved the main language even further forward. The whole situation just feels like a regression to me. From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rick Winscot Sent: 18 December 2011 01:29 To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] You are the product The charts? The dashboard? The app as a whole? Yes. I'd recommend looking into the ExtJS samples at Sencha. http://www.sencha.com/products/extjs/ -- Regards, Ganaraj P R -- Regards, Ganaraj P R
Re: [flexcoders] You are the product
The general consensus is that a. People hate Flash. ( dont really know why!!! after reading all the HTML 5 vs Flash articles... ) / Developers hate javascript ( atleast the people who like the OOP paradigm! ). b. Developers love AS3. ( Its the next best thing to chocolate! ) / People love nice UI. The holy grail is to create something that doesnt require flash but can be programmed with as3 or something similiar and runs on a browser without any plugin. On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 3:49 PM, Rogerio Gonzalez rogerio.gonza...@gmail.com wrote: ** Hello to you all! Removing Flash Player from the picture, require use a client side technology available in most devices. HTML5 will require, at least, javascript. Since 99 I never really trust javascript because the cross-browser compatibility. Anyone care to illustrate to me what change since then? Do browsers in other devices really stick with one version of javascript? If between browsers, under windows, we don´t got a javascript running without a hole bunch of workarounds, what is the difference for others devices? You don´t wanna flash? I can understand that. But you will need something real to get the juice. You will need RIA. JavaFX can be an option. Silverlight already is, once the win8 got to devices. But none of then will work on iOS. Probably only silverlight will work on win8/metro ( 'will not run plugins... a side the ones from microsoft' ). I will stick with flash/flex for the time being and still waiting on the next best thing involving RIA and Web. Regards, Rogério Gonzalez On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 11:47 AM, ganaraj p r ganara...@gmail.com wrote: ** Hmmm. I doubt that would be possible. The problem has never been with compiling the code as such. Its about how the compiled code is finally used. Since we are going to be replacing / removing the Flash Player from the picture, whether we compile the code on the server end or compile the code on the client end it really doesnt matter. On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 1:17 PM, Rick Winscot rick.wins...@zyche.comwrote: ** Hmm… if Falcon is 10x faster than the previous compiler – could you incrementally feed it and have it emit to the browser? Kind of like a progressive download? From: ganaraj p r ganara...@gmail.com Reply-To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 10:17:54 + To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] You are the product All that adobe needs to do is, start attempting to replace the current JS with AS3. Currently AS3 is a compiled language and JS is an interpreted language. Now can adobe come up with an interpreter for as3? On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 9:40 AM, Peter Ginneberge p.ginnebe...@telenet.be wrote: ** I really don't want to take a step back when I was in fact hoping to be getting a new version of action script that moved the main language even further forward. I feel the same way. I just dislike JS and going from ActionScript to JavaScript is a step back.. a big one. If you know Java, you're in luck 'cos with GWT you can just write Java apps and they get compiled to JS (with html/css) and you still get to use Maven/Spring/Hibernate and do all the OOP stuff and whatnot. You don't have to look at javascript at all, let alone write a single line of it ! As I mentioned earlier, if FlashBuilder would do something similar, I'd be all over it. And it can be done, haXe already does that. http://haxe.org/ regards, Peter - Original Message - From: Glenn Williams gl...@tinylion.co.uk To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 6:45 PM Subject: RE: [flexcoders] You are the product The samples are ok, but it's the actual langue I dislike. I just doesn't feel very complete to me. I really don't want to take a step back when I was in fact hoping to be getting a new version of action script that moved the main language even further forward. The whole situation just feels like a regression to me. From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rick Winscot Sent: 18 December 2011 01:29 To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] You are the product The charts? The dashboard? The app as a whole? Yes. I'd recommend looking into the ExtJS samples at Sencha. http://www.sencha.com/products/extjs/ -- Regards, Ganaraj P R -- Regards, Ganaraj P R -- Regards, Ganaraj P R
Re: [flexcoders] You are the product
Right the key point is maintain the AS3/Flex development platform and export to JS. Nobody will change backwards to program JS if you taste AS3 ;) 2011/12/19 ganaraj p r ganara...@gmail.com ** The general consensus is that a. People hate Flash. ( dont really know why!!! after reading all the HTML 5 vs Flash articles... ) / Developers hate javascript ( atleast the people who like the OOP paradigm! ). b. Developers love AS3. ( Its the next best thing to chocolate! ) / People love nice UI. The holy grail is to create something that doesnt require flash but can be programmed with as3 or something similiar and runs on a browser without any plugin. On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 3:49 PM, Rogerio Gonzalez rogerio.gonza...@gmail.com wrote: ** Hello to you all! Removing Flash Player from the picture, require use a client side technology available in most devices. HTML5 will require, at least, javascript. Since 99 I never really trust javascript because the cross-browser compatibility. Anyone care to illustrate to me what change since then? Do browsers in other devices really stick with one version of javascript? If between browsers, under windows, we don´t got a javascript running without a hole bunch of workarounds, what is the difference for others devices? You don´t wanna flash? I can understand that. But you will need something real to get the juice. You will need RIA. JavaFX can be an option. Silverlight already is, once the win8 got to devices. But none of then will work on iOS. Probably only silverlight will work on win8/metro ( 'will not run plugins... a side the ones from microsoft' ). I will stick with flash/flex for the time being and still waiting on the next best thing involving RIA and Web. Regards, Rogério Gonzalez On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 11:47 AM, ganaraj p r ganara...@gmail.comwrote: ** Hmmm. I doubt that would be possible. The problem has never been with compiling the code as such. Its about how the compiled code is finally used. Since we are going to be replacing / removing the Flash Player from the picture, whether we compile the code on the server end or compile the code on the client end it really doesnt matter. On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 1:17 PM, Rick Winscot rick.wins...@zyche.comwrote: ** Hmm… if Falcon is 10x faster than the previous compiler – could you incrementally feed it and have it emit to the browser? Kind of like a progressive download? From: ganaraj p r ganara...@gmail.com Reply-To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 10:17:54 + To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] You are the product All that adobe needs to do is, start attempting to replace the current JS with AS3. Currently AS3 is a compiled language and JS is an interpreted language. Now can adobe come up with an interpreter for as3? On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 9:40 AM, Peter Ginneberge p.ginnebe...@telenet.be wrote: ** I really don't want to take a step back when I was in fact hoping to be getting a new version of action script that moved the main language even further forward. I feel the same way. I just dislike JS and going from ActionScript to JavaScript is a step back.. a big one. If you know Java, you're in luck 'cos with GWT you can just write Java apps and they get compiled to JS (with html/css) and you still get to use Maven/Spring/Hibernate and do all the OOP stuff and whatnot. You don't have to look at javascript at all, let alone write a single line of it ! As I mentioned earlier, if FlashBuilder would do something similar, I'd be all over it. And it can be done, haXe already does that. http://haxe.org/ regards, Peter - Original Message - From: Glenn Williams gl...@tinylion.co.uk To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 6:45 PM Subject: RE: [flexcoders] You are the product The samples are ok, but it's the actual langue I dislike. I just doesn't feel very complete to me. I really don't want to take a step back when I was in fact hoping to be getting a new version of action script that moved the main language even further forward. The whole situation just feels like a regression to me. From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rick Winscot Sent: 18 December 2011 01:29 To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] You are the product The charts? The dashboard? The app as a whole? Yes. I'd recommend looking into the ExtJS samples at Sencha. http://www.sencha.com/products/extjs/ -- Regards, Ganaraj P R -- Regards, Ganaraj P R -- Regards, Ganaraj P R -- Carlos Rovira Director de Tecnología M: +34 607 22 60 05 F: +34 912 35 57 77 CODEOSCOPIC S.A. http://www.codeoscopic.com Avd. del General Perón, 32 Planta 10, Puertas P
Re: [flexcoders] You are the product
The general consensus is that a. People hate Flash. ( dont really know why!!! after reading all the HTML 5 vs Flash articles... ) / Developers hate javascript ( atleast the people who like the OOP paradigm! ). b. Developers love AS3. ( Its the next best thing to chocolate! ) / People love nice UI. Maybe people hate the things we create with Flash, such as heavyweight advertisements you can't easily stop - but that's the programmers fault. Personally, I am interested in educational applications, so AS3 is great: very powerful with amazing potential. Just look at what Away3D manage to do: http://away3d.com/showcase/ Isn't AIR is the obvious choice, and not Flash, when you want avoid browser multiplicity? John
Re: [flexcoders] You are the product
On 19/12/2011 17:58, John McCormack wrote: The general consensus is that a. People hate Flash. ( dont really know why!!! after reading all the HTML 5 vs Flash articles... ) / Developers hate javascript ( atleast the people who like the OOP paradigm! ). b. Developers love AS3. ( Its the next best thing to chocolate! ) / People love nice UI. Maybe people hate the things we create with Flash, such as heavyweight advertisements you can't easily stop - but that's the programmers fault. Personally, I am interested in educational applications, so AS3 is great: very powerful with amazing potential. Just look at what Away3D manage to do: http://away3d.com/showcase/ LOL, looks beautiful, runs like a dog on my laptop. As you might guess, my laptop is not a current speed machine. Paul Isn't AIR is the obvious choice, and not Flash, when you want avoid browser multiplicity? John
RE: [flexcoders] You are the product
The general consensus is that: a. People hate Flash. ( dont really know why!!! after reading all the HTML 5 vs Flash articles... ) / Developers hate javascript ( atleast the people who like the OOP paradigm! ). b. Developers love AS3. ( Its the next best thing to chocolate! ) / People love nice UI. I agree with those theories, which is why I think hAxe is a promising technology going forward - program in an OOP way very similar to AS3 and yet export to Javascript/HTML5. Jason Merrill Instructional Technology Architect II Bank of America Global Learning ___ From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Andrews Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 1:18 PM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] You are the product On 19/12/2011 17:58, John McCormack wrote: The general consensus is that a. People hate Flash. ( dont really know why!!! after reading all the HTML 5 vs Flash articles... ) / Developers hate javascript ( atleast the people who like the OOP paradigm! ). b. Developers love AS3. ( Its the next best thing to chocolate! ) / People love nice UI. Maybe people hate the things we create with Flash, such as heavyweight advertisements you can't easily stop - but that's the programmers fault. Personally, I am interested in educational applications, so AS3 is great: very powerful with amazing potential. Just look at what Away3D manage to do: http://away3d.com/showcase/ LOL, looks beautiful, runs like a dog on my laptop. As you might guess, my laptop is not a current speed machine. Paul Isn't AIR is the obvious choice, and not Flash, when you want avoid browser multiplicity? John -- This message w/attachments (message) is intended solely for the use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or proprietary. If you are not an intended recipient, please notify the sender, and then please delete and destroy all copies and attachments, and be advised that any review or dissemination of, or the taking of any action in reliance on, the information contained in or attached to this message is prohibited. Unless specifically indicated, this message is not an offer to sell or a solicitation of any investment products or other financial product or service, an official confirmation of any transaction, or an official statement of Sender. Subject to applicable law, Sender may intercept, monitor, review and retain e-communications (EC) traveling through its networks/systems and may produce any such EC to regulators, law enforcement, in litigation and as required by law. The laws of the country of each sender/recipient may impact the handling of EC, and EC may be archived, supervised and produced in countries other than the country in which you are located. This message cannot be guaranteed to be secure or free of errors or viruses. References to Sender are references to any subsidiary of Bank of America Corporation. Securities and Insurance Products: * Are Not FDIC Insured * Are Not Bank Guaranteed * May Lose Value * Are Not a Bank Deposit * Are Not a Condition to Any Banking Service or Activity * Are Not Insured by Any Federal Government Agency. Attachments that are part of this EC may have additional important disclosures and disclaimers, which you should read. This message is subject to terms available at the following link: http://www.bankofamerica.com/emaildisclaimer. By messaging with Sender you consent to the foregoing.
Re: [flexcoders] You are the product
Uh the original question is pretty simple - can you do anything [ like the link provided ] in HTML / CSS? The short answer is, yes. Since you opened a can of worms I'll bite. Specs not yet finished blah blah blah. If you're looking for a language to get carved in stone before you write a line of code good luck. There are plenty of apps out there that are working just fine on 'draft' technology. Innovation typically drives change not the other way around. Newer features bah! If you find a browser that supports the features you must have try to standardize on that browser if you can. If you can't then cross that bridge if you have to come to it and not before. Getting your panties in a wad over something that isn't on your plate is a waste of time. One code-base everywhere Urk. Really? I thought that was what Flash was supposed to do! Seriously I don't know what you're trying to say here. If you need an HTML/CSS app that runs just about anywhere wrap it in AIR and move on. Did he even state that it needs to run on desktop, mobile, tablets, and the voyager I spacecraft? Any good programmer barf. I do get sick of pious comments like this. I mean the guy just asked a simple question. Architecture is a subject best served after a developer has a chance to get cozy with the technology. I mean I appreciate your desire to go deep on this question but really milk before meat. The question was simple if he needs more let the subject blossom. From: Robert VanCuren Jr robert.vancuren...@gmail.com Reply-To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 01:01:27 -0500 To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] You are the product There is no one size fits all solution if you want to build a complex application. Flash might be a good choice for one and HTML for another and you might need to go native depending on what you are trying to do. Maybe you even want to use Java or Silverlight! When you ask if you can do something in HTML5/JS/CSS you need to keep in mind that many of the specs are not yet finished. It will be several more years before they are even in the recommendation phase. So while it may be possible to do some things in some browsers HTML5/JS/CSS is far from being cross platform ready. Standards move slow by their nature and because of that browser vendors will release features before the standards are finished, many times that means that each browser will have a different API or implementation for the same feature. If you are going to use newer html features it is recommended that you only use the ones that are relatively stable. May of the really cool features that you will want to use are not yet production ready and should be avoided for a real project. Of course if you can limit your scope to a couple browsers there is a lot more you can do. All of that said you can make some really kick ass stuff using the HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript. There are tons of libraries that will abstract out the browser specific things and attempt to make one code base work everywhere. Things like Modernizr, Three.js, Dojo, jQuery, EaselJS ,ect, ect. Even when using these libraries there are performance differences across devices and even browser versions. Making a web application that really works across platforms and devices is not a trivial task. Take a look at some of the stuff you can do https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/demos/ http://www.chromeexperiments.com/ As any good developer knows you should always choose your technology on a per project basis and not because one tech is cooler than the other. In many cases it may be require to have multiple versions of your application to cover your whole target market. The project I am currently working on has a native Android and iOS app, along with an HTML5 and Flash version so that we could get as much coverage as possible. Sure its a pain but if you really want cross platform that is whats required. Some things are not even possible with out a native app on certain devices. Things like file I/O and Audio are very lacking in most browsers. Sometimes you just have to go native. Do not be afraid to learn a new language or two it will be good for you. Also make sure to pick the right tech for what you are trying to build. Again there is no holy grail that will let you write code once and work absolutely everywhere, it just does not exist. Choose your tech wisely! On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 8:29 PM, Rick Winscot rick.wins...@zyche.com wrote: The charts? The dashboard? The app as a whole? Yes I'd recommend looking into the ExtJS samples at Sencha. http://www.sencha.com/products/extjs/ From: Dave Glasser dglas...@pobox.com Reply-To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 17:22:39 -0800 (PST) To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] You
Re: [flexcoders] You are the product
Interesting answers but they almost all are based on the assumption that you have much time and enough money to waste. You can do almost everything with HTML/JS/CSS, but for many things you will require much (really much) more time than with Flash. I say 'almost' because there are things you can't do, an example is applications using peer-assisted networking (peer-to-peer), which is a realworld project I'm working on currently. Let's stop this war because both technologies are complementary and there are things you should do with one technology and others with other technologies. Now regarding the attitude of Adobe, it's true that the way they did the annoucement was not 'friendly', but it was actually a logical decision. There is no flash application on the web that was designed with mobile devices in mind. Users generally install apps on their devices and we have AIR for that, especially with the new native extensions there is no limitations to what you can do anymore. Developing using Flash and native languages for extensions is a new way of developing applications and it should be the same for web apps, where we develop with Flash and HTML. The reality is that every technology has its advantages and as a developer you have to know when to use each one. Haykel Ben Jemia Allmas Web RIA Development http://www.allmas-tn.com On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 11:24 AM, Rick Winscot rick.wins...@zyche.comwrote: ** Uh… the original question is pretty simple - can you do anything [ like the link provided ] in HTML / CSS? The short answer is, yes. Since you opened a can of worms… I'll bite. Specs not yet finished… blah blah blah. If you're looking for a language to get carved in stone before you write a line of code… good luck. There are plenty of apps out there that are working just fine on 'draft' technology. Innovation typically drives change – not the other way around. Newer features… bah! If you find a browser that supports the features you must have… try to standardize on that browser if you can. If you can't… then cross that bridge if you have to come to it and not before. Getting your panties in a wad over something that isn't on your plate is a waste of time. One code-base everywhere… Urk. Really? I thought that was what Flash was supposed to do! Seriously… I don't know what you're trying to say here. If you need an HTML/CSS app that runs just about anywhere… wrap it in AIR and move on. Did he even state that it needs to run on desktop, mobile, tablets, and the voyager I spacecraft? Any good programmer… barf. I do get sick of pious comments like this. I mean – the guy just asked a simple question. Architecture is a subject best served after a developer has a chance to get cozy with the technology. I mean – I appreciate your desire to go deep on this question but really… milk before meat. The question was simple – if he needs more – let the subject blossom. From: Robert VanCuren Jr robert.vancuren...@gmail.com Reply-To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 01:01:27 -0500 To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] You are the product There is no one size fits all solution if you want to build a complex application. Flash might be a good choice for one and HTML for another and you might need to go native depending on what you are trying to do. Maybe you even want to use Java or Silverlight! When you ask if you can do something in HTML5/JS/CSS you need to keep in mind that many of the specs are not yet finished. It will be several more years before they are even in the recommendation phase. So while it may be possible to do some things in some browsers HTML5/JS/CSS is far from being cross platform ready. Standards move slow by their nature and because of that browser vendors will release features before the standards are finished, many times that means that each browser will have a different API or implementation for the same feature. If you are going to use newer html features it is recommended that you only use the ones that are relatively stable. May of the really cool features that you will want to use are not yet production ready and should be avoided for a real project. Of course if you can limit your scope to a couple browsers there is a lot more you can do. All of that said you can make some really kick ass stuff using the HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript. There are tons of libraries that will abstract out the browser specific things and attempt to make one code base work everywhere. Things like Modernizr, Three.js, Dojo, jQuery, EaselJS ,ect, ect. Even when using these libraries there are performance differences across devices and even browser versions. Making a web application that really works across platforms and devices is not a trivial task. Take a look at some of the stuff you can do https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/demos/ http
RE: [flexcoders] You are the product
The samples are ok, but it's the actual langue I dislike. I just doesn't feel very complete to me. I really don't want to take a step back when I was in fact hoping to be getting a new version of action script that moved the main language even further forward. The whole situation just feels like a regression to me. From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rick Winscot Sent: 18 December 2011 01:29 To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] You are the product The charts? The dashboard? The app as a whole? Yes. I'd recommend looking into the ExtJS samples at Sencha. http://www.sencha.com/products/extjs/ From: Dave Glasser dglas...@pobox.com Reply-To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 17:22:39 -0800 (PST) To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] You are the product Can you do something comparable to this with HTML5/JS/CSS? http://examples2.idashboards.com/idashboards/?gues tuser=wputil1 http://examples2.idashboards.com/idashboards/?gue stuser=wputil1dashID=260 dashID=260 If so, do you have any links to examples? From: Guy Morton g...@alchemy.com.au mailto:guy%40alchemy.com.au Using HTML/JS/CSS you CAN do apps that look every bit as nice as Flash apps, and they run everywhere.
Re: [flexcoders] You are the product
think of it this way: you have a very good opportunity, because you can choose. most bosses tell you, which language you'll need to program in. so i'd be happy in your place. you can cry about a language you don't even use. On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 6:45 PM, Glenn Williams gl...@tinylion.co.ukwrote: The samples are ok, but it’s the actual langue I dislike. I just doesn’t feel very complete to me. I really don’t want to take a step back when I was in fact hoping to be getting a new version of action script that moved the main language even further forward. The whole situation just feels like a regression to me. *From:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Rick Winscot *Sent:* 18 December 2011 01:29 *To:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com *Subject:* Re: [flexcoders] You are the product The charts? The dashboard? The app as a whole? Yes… I'd recommend looking into the ExtJS samples at Sencha. http://www.sencha.com/products/extjs/ *From: *Dave Glasser dglas...@pobox.com *Reply-To: *flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders@yahoogroups.com *Date: *Sat, 17 Dec 2011 17:22:39 -0800 (PST) *To: *flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders@yahoogroups.com *Subject: *Re: [flexcoders] You are the product Can you do something comparable to this with HTML5/JS/CSS? http://examples2.idashboards.com/idashboards/?guestuser=wputil1dashID=260 If so, do you have any links to examples? From: Guy Morton g...@alchemy.com.au Using HTML/JS/CSS you CAN do apps that look every bit as nice as Flash apps, and they run everywhere.
Re: [flexcoders] You are the product
If you’ve written a lot of code in ActionScript, writing code in JavaScript can feel like a regression. Right now, there are trade-offs in the Flash stack and the HTML stack. Adobe is not saying that you should stop writing applications in Flash/Flex and move to HTML/JS/CSS today. My summary is that, based on the recent track record of the HTML/JS/CSS stack, there are a lot of folks doing great things on that stack, and we are investing in becoming the leading tool provider for that stack. That takes time and we are starting now. Also note that Google is trying to replace the JS portion of that stack with a structured programming language. I would not bet against that eventually happening, but it is unclear that it will be DART. The HTML/JS/CSS stack has a lot of people working on it, and they are working together, and Adobe is joining that party. Today and tomorrow and for some number of years, Flash and Flex remain the best solution for a significant number of applications, and Adobe is betting that by moving Flex to Apache, Flex will enjoy the benefits of a lot of people working on it, and working together. The Flash Player will be getting faster and will have new features, and while most of those will be motivated by the gaming initiative, some of those improvements will benefit non-games as well. If you want to be one of the many people working together on Flex, watch for announcements we hope to make if we get accepted by Apache. -Alex On 12/18/11 9:45 AM, Glenn Williams gl...@tinylion.co.uk wrote: The samples are ok, but it’s the actual langue I dislike. I just doesn’t feel very complete to me. I really don’t want to take a step back when I was in fact hoping to be getting a new version of action script that moved the main language even further forward. The whole situation just feels like a regression to me. From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rick Winscot Sent: 18 December 2011 01:29 To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] You are the product The charts? The dashboard? The app as a whole? Yes… I'd recommend looking into the ExtJS samples at Sencha. http://www.sencha.com/products/extjs/ From: Dave Glasser dglas...@pobox.com Reply-To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 17:22:39 -0800 (PST) To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com mailto%0d%0a%20:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] You are the product Ca! n you do something comparable to this with HTML5/JS/CSS? http://examples2.idashboards.com/idashboards/?guestuser=wputil1dashID=260 If so, do you have any links to examples? From: Guy Morton g...@alchemy.com.au mailto:guy%40alchemy.com.au Using HTML/JS/CSS you CAN do apps that look every bit as nice as Flash apps, and they run everywhere. -- Alex Harui Flex SDK Team Adobe System, Inc. http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
Re: [flexcoders] You are the product
Using HTML/JS/CSS you CAN do apps that look every bit as nice as Flash apps, and they run everywhere. Yes, there are challenges. Yes, IE is still a problem, if you choose to support it directly (personally I like the Google Chrome Frame solution to IE), but libraries such as JQuery and Raphael solve a lot of problems. Yes, you will have to learn some new stuff. But, on the upside, you get a true cross-platform delivery - the ONLY one that delivers on all devices. Guy On 17/12/2011, at 8:36 AM, Scott Fanetti wrote: Except for the fact that HTML 5 apps look like shit compared to flash, the run like shit, they can be freely stolen by anyone - and generally they rely on lots of browser and CSS hacks to be pseudo consistent. Html5 really sucks - its just a shame the world has decided Flash must no longer be used for anything. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 16, 2011, at 1:15 PM, Guy Morton g...@alchemy.com.au wrote: SVG + Javascript + Canvas ARE the equivalent to Flash in the web standards world. On 17/12/2011, at 5:16 AM, Bill Brutzman wrote: My sense is that Adobe has realized that it close to impossible to port Flash to the staggering proliferation of tablets, smart phones, and other devices. Does anybody expect Flash to run on a Kindle or a Nook? In my little world of fantasy… I wish I knew how Flash worked… Perhaps a standards-based Flash lite could be cranked into HTML-6. --Bill From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kevin MacDonald Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 12:50 PM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] You are the product Good points. Thanks for responding. I'm not sure why you conflate me knocking Adobe for a lack of willingness to learn. I code on a daily basis in half a dozen languages for a small company struggling to reach profitability. Our client application is one piece of that. The 'learning' in this case is that some companies can be trusted more than others. Adobe puts forth a consistent marketing message to software developers: Trust us! Follow us!, and they consistently fail to live up to that in order to sell us the next round of developer tools. Microsoft, while clearly capable of various brands of skulduggery, has consistently maintained a level of loyalty to their developers, and it has succeeded famously for them. Have you every noticed that 15 year old programs still run on Windows 7? I don't expect that from Adobe. But the heavy sell job on AIR followed by stepping at arms length from it irks me. Kevin 2011/12/16 Csomák Gábor csom...@gmail.com technology simply changes. i met a guy who was the lead engineer of commodore 64. do you think when he was on the top of his career, he stopped learning? this segment changes a lot. it is a lifelong learning. get used to it. html5 is not ready. even w3c says it'll be in 2014 (as i remember). and i think, it won't kill air. neither flash. of course it will depend on a lot of things, but the two technologies are good in different segments. you cannot do a prezi.com in html5, and you cannot do an entire webpage in flash. (login remembers will not work, etc...) the key is to know both, and know when to use what. On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 7:02 PM, Kevin MacDonald kevinmacdon...@gmail.com wrote: Hello developers, I have come to some unfortunate conclusions about how Adobe operates. I would be interested to get your opinions on the matter. Some years ago I helped build out a desktop application using Macromedia Director. It ran on both Mac and Windows, and was heavily backed by web services. In principle it was much like an Adobe AIR app might be today. After a few years Adobe bought Macromedia Director, with promises to the developer community that they would continue to support it. They came out with a few maintenance releases that were extremely buggy, enough so that we tried to roll back to the previous version. However, Adobe made sure there were some gotchas that made it painful to either stay on the current version or roll back. Shortly thereafter they killed Director altogether. An Adobe evangelist came to our office and sold us hard on moving to Adobe AIR, which we did. We completely re-wrote our application on that platform. Now, several years later, Adobe is very obviously moving away from AIR and towards HTML5, again with promises to their loyal developers to continue supporting it. Based on their history what I expect Adobe to do is kill AIR before too long. And you should have no doubts that they can make it very painful to remain on that platform. For example, AIR apps use whatever version of Adobe Reader is installed on the client machine. Adobe Reader updates happen independently of updates to the AIR run time
Re: [flexcoders] You are the product
Do you have any examples that look better than what flash 5 delivered? Sent from my iPhone On Dec 17, 2011, at 1:44 PM, Guy Morton g...@alchemy.com.au wrote: Using HTML/JS/CSS you CAN do apps that look every bit as nice as Flash apps, and they run everywhere. Yes, there are challenges. Yes, IE is still a problem, if you choose to support it directly (personally I like the Google Chrome Frame solution to IE), but libraries such as JQuery and Raphael solve a lot of problems. Yes, you will have to learn some new stuff. But, on the upside, you get a true cross-platform delivery - the ONLY one that delivers on all devices. Guy On 17/12/2011, at 8:36 AM, Scott Fanetti wrote: Except for the fact that HTML 5 apps look like shit compared to flash, the run like shit, they can be freely stolen by anyone - and generally they rely on lots of browser and CSS hacks to be pseudo consistent. Html5 really sucks - its just a shame the world has decided Flash must no longer be used for anything. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 16, 2011, at 1:15 PM, Guy Morton g...@alchemy.com.au wrote: SVG + Javascript + Canvas ARE the equivalent to Flash in the web standards world. On 17/12/2011, at 5:16 AM, Bill Brutzman wrote: My sense is that Adobe has realized that it close to impossible to port Flash to the staggering proliferation of tablets, smart phones, and other devices. Does anybody expect Flash to run on a Kindle or a Nook? In my little world of fantasy… I wish I knew how Flash worked… Perhaps a standards-based Flash lite could be cranked into HTML-6. --Bill From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kevin MacDonald Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 12:50 PM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] You are the product Good points. Thanks for responding. I'm not sure why you conflate me knocking Adobe for a lack of willingness to learn. I code on a daily basis in half a dozen languages for a small company struggling to reach profitability. Our client application is one piece of that. The 'learning' in this case is that some companies can be trusted more than others. Adobe puts forth a consistent marketing message to software developers: Trust us! Follow us!, and they consistently fail to live up to that in order to sell us the next round of developer tools. Microsoft, while clearly capable of various brands of skulduggery, has consistently maintained a level of loyalty to their developers, and it has succeeded famously for them. Have you every noticed that 15 year old programs still run on Windows 7? I don't expect that from Adobe. But the heavy sell job on AIR followed by stepping at arms length from it irks me. Kevin 2011/12/16 Csomák Gábor csom...@gmail.com technology simply changes. i met a guy who was the lead engineer of commodore 64. do you think when he was on the top of his career, he stopped learning? this segment changes a lot. it is a lifelong learning. get used to it. html5 is not ready. even w3c says it'll be in 2014 (as i remember). and i think, it won't kill air. neither flash. of course it will depend on a lot of things, but the two technologies are good in different segments. you cannot do a prezi.com in html5, and you cannot do an entire webpage in flash. (login remembers will not work, etc...) the key is to know both, and know when to use what. On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 7:02 PM, Kevin MacDonald kevinmacdon...@gmail.com wrote: Hello developers, I have come to some unfortunate conclusions about how Adobe operates. I would be interested to get your opinions on the matter. Some years ago I helped build out a desktop application using Macromedia Director. It ran on both Mac and Windows, and was heavily backed by web services. In principle it was much like an Adobe AIR app might be today. After a few years Adobe bought Macromedia Director, with promises to the developer community that they would continue to support it. They came out with a few maintenance releases that were extremely buggy, enough so that we tried to roll back to the previous version. However, Adobe made sure there were some gotchas that made it painful to either stay on the current version or roll back. Shortly thereafter they killed Director altogether. An Adobe evangelist came to our office and sold us hard on moving to Adobe AIR, which we did. We completely re-wrote our application on that platform. Now, several years later, Adobe is very obviously moving away from AIR and towards HTML5, again with promises to their loyal developers to continue supporting it. Based on their history what I expect Adobe to do is kill AIR before too long. And you should have no doubts that they can make it very painful to remain on that platform
Re: [flexcoders] You are the product
Can you do something comparable to this with HTML5/JS/CSS? http://examples2.idashboards.com/idashboards/?guestuser=wputil1dashID=260 If so, do you have any links to examples? From: Guy Morton g...@alchemy.com.au Using HTML/JS/CSS you CAN do apps that look every bit as nice as Flash apps, and they run everywhere.
Re: [flexcoders] You are the product
The charts? The dashboard? The app as a whole? Yes I'd recommend looking into the ExtJS samples at Sencha. http://www.sencha.com/products/extjs/ From: Dave Glasser dglas...@pobox.com Reply-To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 17:22:39 -0800 (PST) To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] You are the product Can you do something comparable to this with HTML5/JS/CSS? http://examples2.idashboards.com/idashboards/?guestuser=wputil1dashID=260 If so, do you have any links to examples? From: Guy Morton g...@alchemy.com.au mailto:guy%40alchemy.com.au Using HTML/JS/CSS you CAN do apps that look every bit as nice as Flash apps, and they run everywhere.
Re: [flexcoders] You are the product
There is no one size fits all solution if you want to build a complex application. Flash might be a good choice for one and HTML for another and you might need to go native depending on what you are trying to do. Maybe you even want to use Java or Silverlight! When you ask if you can do something in HTML5/JS/CSS you need to keep in mind that many of the specs are not yet finished. It will be several more years before they are even in the recommendation phase. So while it may be possible to do some things in some browsers HTML5/JS/CSS is far from being cross platform ready. Standards move slow by their nature and because of that browser vendors will release features before the standards are finished, many times that means that each browser will have a different API or implementation for the same feature. If you are going to use newer html features it is recommended that you only use the ones that are relatively stable. May of the really cool features that you will want to use are not yet production ready and should be avoided for a real project. Of course if you can limit your scope to a couple browsers there is a lot more you can do. All of that said you can make some really kick ass stuff using the HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript. There are tons of libraries that will abstract out the browser specific things and attempt to make one code base work everywhere. Things like Modernizr, Three.js, Dojo, jQuery, EaselJS ,ect, ect. Even when using these libraries there are performance differences across devices and even browser versions. Making a web application that really works across platforms and devices is not a trivial task. Take a look at some of the stuff you can do https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/demos/ http://www.chromeexperiments.com/ As any good developer knows you should always choose your technology on a per project basis and not because one tech is cooler than the other. In many cases it may be require to have multiple versions of your application to cover your whole target market. The project I am currently working on has a native Android and iOS app, along with an HTML5 and Flash version so that we could get as much coverage as possible. Sure its a pain but if you really want cross platform that is whats required. Some things are not even possible with out a native app on certain devices. Things like file I/O and Audio are very lacking in most browsers. Sometimes you just have to go native. Do not be afraid to learn a new language or two it will be good for you. Also make sure to pick the right tech for what you are trying to build. Again there is no holy grail that will let you write code once and work absolutely everywhere, it just does not exist. Choose your tech wisely! On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 8:29 PM, Rick Winscot rick.wins...@zyche.comwrote: ** The charts? The dashboard? The app as a whole? Yes… I'd recommend looking into the ExtJS samples at Sencha. http://www.sencha.com/products/extjs/ From: Dave Glasser dglas...@pobox.com Reply-To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 17:22:39 -0800 (PST) To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] You are the product Can you do something comparable to this with HTML5/JS/CSS? http://examples2.idashboards.com/idashboards/?guestuser=wputil1dashID=260 If so, do you have any links to examples? From: Guy Morton g...@alchemy.com.au Using HTML/JS/CSS you CAN do apps that look every bit as nice as Flash apps, and they run everywhere.
Re: [flexcoders] You are the product
technology simply changes. i met a guy who was the lead engineer of commodore 64. do you think when he was on the top of his career, he stopped learning? this segment changes a lot. it is a lifelong learning. get used to it. html5 is not ready. even w3c says it'll be in 2014 (as i remember). and i think, it won't kill air. neither flash. of course it will depend on a lot of things, but the two technologies are good in different segments. you cannot do a prezi.com in html5, and you cannot do an entire webpage in flash. (login remembers will not work, etc...) the key is to know both, and know when to use what. On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 7:02 PM, Kevin MacDonald kevinmacdon...@gmail.comwrote: Hello developers, I have come to some unfortunate conclusions about how Adobe operates. I would be interested to get your opinions on the matter. Some years ago I helped build out a desktop application using Macromedia Director. It ran on both Mac and Windows, and was heavily backed by web services. In principle it was much like an Adobe AIR app might be today. After a few years Adobe bought Macromedia Director, with promises to the developer community that they would continue to support it. They came out with a few maintenance releases that were extremely buggy, enough so that we tried to roll back to the previous version. However, Adobe made sure there were some gotchas that made it painful to either stay on the current version or roll back. Shortly thereafter they killed Director altogether. An Adobe evangelist came to our office and sold us hard on moving to Adobe AIR, which we did. We completely re-wrote our application on that platform. Now, several years later, Adobe is very obviously moving away from AIR and towards HTML5, again with promises to their loyal developers to continue supporting it. Based on their history what I expect Adobe to do is kill AIR before too long. And you should have no doubts that they can make it very painful to remain on that platform. For example, AIR apps use whatever version of Adobe Reader is installed on the client machine. Adobe Reader updates happen independently of updates to the AIR run time. The latest update to Adobe Reader broke certain aspects of our client application, something that might directly hurt our business. What can you do when the HTMLLoader object no longer correctly displays a PDF? What I expected Adobe to do - and what the evangelist led me to believe - was that Adobe would evolve AIR and Flash Builder towards HTML5 over time, bringing all of us along with them. But they don't do that. They scorch the earth and start over. So, what's next? I suppose we will hear from Adobe before too long that we should run out, buy PhoneGap Builder 1.0, and once again chase their code-once-deploy-everywhere carrot. We are not the customer. We are the product. We are the means by which Adobe makes money for their shareholders, nothing more. I suppose in true jaded developer fashion this should come as no shock to me. But the truth is, it never feels nice to be a pawn in someone else's game. Kevin
Re: [flexcoders] You are the product
Good points. Thanks for responding. I'm not sure why you conflate me knocking Adobe for a lack of willingness to learn. I code on a daily basis in half a dozen languages for a small company struggling to reach profitability. Our client application is one piece of that. The 'learning' in this case is that some companies can be trusted more than others. Adobe puts forth a consistent marketing message to software developers: Trust us! Follow us!, and they consistently fail to live up to that in order to sell us the next round of developer tools. Microsoft, while clearly capable of various brands of skulduggery, has consistently maintained a level of loyalty to their developers, and it has succeeded famously for them. Have you every noticed that 15 year old programs still run on Windows 7? I don't expect that from Adobe. But the heavy sell job on AIR followed by stepping at arms length from it irks me. Kevin 2011/12/16 Csomák Gábor csom...@gmail.com ** technology simply changes. i met a guy who was the lead engineer of commodore 64. do you think when he was on the top of his career, he stopped learning? this segment changes a lot. it is a lifelong learning. get used to it. html5 is not ready. even w3c says it'll be in 2014 (as i remember). and i think, it won't kill air. neither flash. of course it will depend on a lot of things, but the two technologies are good in different segments. you cannot do a prezi.com in html5, and you cannot do an entire webpage in flash. (login remembers will not work, etc...) the key is to know both, and know when to use what. On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 7:02 PM, Kevin MacDonald kevinmacdon...@gmail.com wrote: Hello developers, I have come to some unfortunate conclusions about how Adobe operates. I would be interested to get your opinions on the matter. Some years ago I helped build out a desktop application using Macromedia Director. It ran on both Mac and Windows, and was heavily backed by web services. In principle it was much like an Adobe AIR app might be today. After a few years Adobe bought Macromedia Director, with promises to the developer community that they would continue to support it. They came out with a few maintenance releases that were extremely buggy, enough so that we tried to roll back to the previous version. However, Adobe made sure there were some gotchas that made it painful to either stay on the current version or roll back. Shortly thereafter they killed Director altogether. An Adobe evangelist came to our office and sold us hard on moving to Adobe AIR, which we did. We completely re-wrote our application on that platform. Now, several years later, Adobe is very obviously moving away from AIR and towards HTML5, again with promises to their loyal developers to continue supporting it. Based on their history what I expect Adobe to do is kill AIR before too long. And you should have no doubts that they can make it very painful to remain on that platform. For example, AIR apps use whatever version of Adobe Reader is installed on the client machine. Adobe Reader updates happen independently of updates to the AIR run time. The latest update to Adobe Reader broke certain aspects of our client application, something that might directly hurt our business. What can you do when the HTMLLoader object no longer correctly displays a PDF? What I expected Adobe to do - and what the evangelist led me to believe - was that Adobe would evolve AIR and Flash Builder towards HTML5 over time, bringing all of us along with them. But they don't do that. They scorch the earth and start over. So, what's next? I suppose we will hear from Adobe before too long that we should run out, buy PhoneGap Builder 1.0, and once again chase their code-once-deploy-everywhere carrot. We are not the customer. We are the product. We are the means by which Adobe makes money for their shareholders, nothing more. I suppose in true jaded developer fashion this should come as no shock to me. But the truth is, it never feels nice to be a pawn in someone else's game. Kevin
RE: [flexcoders] You are the product
My sense is that Adobe has realized that it close to impossible to port Flash to the staggering proliferation of tablets, smart phones, and other devices. Does anybody expect Flash to run on a Kindle or a Nook? In my little world of fantasy I wish I knew how Flash worked Perhaps a standards-based Flash lite could be cranked into HTML-6. --Bill From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kevin MacDonald Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 12:50 PM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] You are the product Good points. Thanks for responding. I'm not sure why you conflate me knocking Adobe for a lack of willingness to learn. I code on a daily basis in half a dozen languages for a small company struggling to reach profitability. Our client application is one piece of that. The 'learning' in this case is that some companies can be trusted more than others. Adobe puts forth a consistent marketing message to software developers: Trust us! Follow us!, and they consistently fail to live up to that in order to sell us the next round of developer tools. Microsoft, while clearly capable of various brands of skulduggery, has consistently maintained a level of loyalty to their developers, and it has succeeded famously for them. Have you every noticed that 15 year old programs still run on Windows 7? I don't expect that from Adobe. But the heavy sell job on AIR followed by stepping at arms length from it irks me. Kevin 2011/12/16 Csomák Gábor csom...@gmail.com technology simply changes. i met a guy who was the lead engineer of commodore 64. do you think when he was on the top of his career, he stopped learning? this segment changes a lot. it is a lifelong learning. get used to it. html5 is not ready. even w3c says it'll be in 2014 (as i remember). and i think, it won't kill air. neither flash. of course it will depend on a lot of things, but the two technologies are good in different segments. you cannot do a prezi.com in html5, and you cannot do an entire webpage in flash. (login remembers will not work, etc...) the key is to know both, and know when to use what. On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 7:02 PM, Kevin MacDonald kevinmacdon...@gmail.com wrote: Hello developers, I have come to some unfortunate conclusions about how Adobe operates. I would be interested to get your opinions on the matter. Some years ago I helped build out a desktop application using Macromedia Director. It ran on both Mac and Windows, and was heavily backed by web services. In principle it was much like an Adobe AIR app might be today. After a few years Adobe bought Macromedia Director, with promises to the developer community that they would continue to support it. They came out with a few maintenance releases that were extremely buggy, enough so that we tried to roll back to the previous version. However, Adobe made sure there were some gotchas that made it painful to either stay on the current version or roll back. Shortly thereafter they killed Director altogether. An Adobe evangelist came to our office and sold us hard on moving to Adobe AIR, which we did. We completely re-wrote our application on that platform. Now, several years later, Adobe is very obviously moving away from AIR and towards HTML5, again with promises to their loyal developers to continue supporting it. Based on their history what I expect Adobe to do is kill AIR before too long. And you should have no doubts that they can make it very painful to remain on that platform. For example, AIR apps use whatever version of Adobe Reader is installed on the client machine. Adobe Reader updates happen independently of updates to the AIR run time. The latest update to Adobe Reader broke certain aspects of our client application, something that might directly hurt our business. What can you do when the HTMLLoader object no longer correctly displays a PDF? What I expected Adobe to do - and what the evangelist led me to believe - was that Adobe would evolve AIR and Flash Builder towards HTML5 over time, bringing all of us along with them. But they don't do that. They scorch the earth and start over. So, what's next? I suppose we will hear from Adobe before too long that we should run out, buy PhoneGap Builder 1.0, and once again chase their code-once-deploy-everywhere carrot. We are not the customer. We are the product. We are the means by which Adobe makes money for their shareholders, nothing more. I suppose in true jaded developer fashion this should come as no shock to me. But the truth is, it never feels nice to be a pawn in someone else's game. Kevin
RE: [flexcoders] You are the product
Flash Player is a virtual machine. Last time I opened a *.swf file in a hex editor, it was a compressed file (I think zlib). After you decompress the file, you have to parse the structures inside (code, data, images, sounds). After that you have to load them inside the virtual machine and emulate the code. I don't think there is a JIT inside (maybe I am wrong), so each instruction is decoded and emulated on the native CPU. Excluding flash byte code, there is also a native decoder for images, videos and audio. Flash player also has support for UDP, TCP and other things inside (which need cpu and ram to work). If you open a page with 2 flash ads and a YouTube video embedded in it, you are in serious trouble. Each device has a different CPU, different memory bandwidth, different speed when writing on the internal memory. My point of view: Flash Player is an excellent product. Adobe should make it open source, invest money in future versions and sell support services (RedHat tactics). --- On Fri, 12/16/11, Bill Brutzman bill.brutz...@scottynow.com wrote: From: Bill Brutzman bill.brutz...@scottynow.com Subject: RE: [flexcoders] You are the product To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, December 16, 2011, 8:16 PM My sense is that Adobe has realized that it close to impossible to port Flash to the staggering proliferation of tablets, smart phones, and other devices. Does anybody expect Flash to run on a Kindle or a Nook? In my little world of fantasy… I wish I knew how Flash worked… Perhaps a standards-based Flash lite could be cranked into HTML-6. --Bill From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kevin MacDonald Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 12:50 PM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] You are the product Good points. Thanks for responding. I'm not sure why you conflate me knocking Adobe for a lack of willingness to learn. I code on a daily basis in half a dozen languages for a small company struggling to reach profitability. Our client application is one piece of that. The 'learning' in this case is that some companies can be trusted more than others. Adobe puts forth a consistent marketing message to software developers: Trust us! Follow us!, and they consistently fail to live up to that in order to sell us the next round of developer tools. Microsoft, while clearly capable of various brands of skulduggery, has consistently maintained a level of loyalty to their developers, and it has succeeded famously for them. Have you every noticed that 15 year old programs still run on Windows 7? I don't expect that from Adobe. But the heavy sell job on AIR followed by stepping at arms length from it irks me. Kevin 2011/12/16 Csomák Gábor csom...@gmail.com technology simply changes. i met a guy who was the lead engineer of commodore 64. do you think when he was on the top of his career, he stopped learning? this segment changes a lot. it is a lifelong learning. get used to it. html5 is not ready. even w3c says it'll be in 2014 (as i remember). and i think, it won't kill air. neither flash. of course it will depend on a lot of things, but the two technologies are good in different segments. you cannot do a prezi.com in html5, and you cannot do an entire webpage in flash. (login remembers will not work, etc...)the key is to know both, and know when to use what. On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 7:02 PM, Kevin MacDonald kevinmacdon...@gmail.com wrote: Hello developers, I have come to some unfortunate conclusions about how Adobe operates. I would be interested to get your opinions on the matter. Some years ago I helped build out a desktop application using Macromedia Director. It ran on both Mac and Windows, and was heavily backed by web services. In principle it was much like an Adobe AIR app might be today. After a few years Adobe bought Macromedia Director, with promises to the developer community that they would continue to support it. They came out with a few maintenance releases that were extremely buggy, enough so that we tried to roll back to the previous version. However, Adobe made sure there were some gotchas that made it painful to either stay on the current version or roll back. Shortly thereafter they killed Director altogether. An Adobe evangelist came to our office and sold us hard on moving to Adobe AIR, which we did. We completely re-wrote our application on that platform. Now, several years later, Adobe is very obviously moving away from AIR and towards HTML5, again with promises to their loyal developers to continue supporting it. Based on their history what I expect Adobe to do is kill AIR before too long. And you should have no doubts that they can make it very painful to remain on that platform. For example, AIR apps use whatever version of Adobe Reader is installed on the client machine. Adobe Reader updates
Re: [flexcoders] You are the product
SVG + Javascript + Canvas ARE the equivalent to Flash in the web standards world. On 17/12/2011, at 5:16 AM, Bill Brutzman wrote: My sense is that Adobe has realized that it close to impossible to port Flash to the staggering proliferation of tablets, smart phones, and other devices. Does anybody expect Flash to run on a Kindle or a Nook? In my little world of fantasy… I wish I knew how Flash worked… Perhaps a standards-based Flash lite could be cranked into HTML-6. --Bill From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kevin MacDonald Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 12:50 PM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] You are the product Good points. Thanks for responding. I'm not sure why you conflate me knocking Adobe for a lack of willingness to learn. I code on a daily basis in half a dozen languages for a small company struggling to reach profitability. Our client application is one piece of that. The 'learning' in this case is that some companies can be trusted more than others. Adobe puts forth a consistent marketing message to software developers: Trust us! Follow us!, and they consistently fail to live up to that in order to sell us the next round of developer tools. Microsoft, while clearly capable of various brands of skulduggery, has consistently maintained a level of loyalty to their developers, and it has succeeded famously for them. Have you every noticed that 15 year old programs still run on Windows 7? I don't expect that from Adobe. But the heavy sell job on AIR followed by stepping at arms length from it irks me. Kevin 2011/12/16 Csomák Gábor csom...@gmail.com technology simply changes. i met a guy who was the lead engineer of commodore 64. do you think when he was on the top of his career, he stopped learning? this segment changes a lot. it is a lifelong learning. get used to it. html5 is not ready. even w3c says it'll be in 2014 (as i remember). and i think, it won't kill air. neither flash. of course it will depend on a lot of things, but the two technologies are good in different segments. you cannot do a prezi.com in html5, and you cannot do an entire webpage in flash. (login remembers will not work, etc...) the key is to know both, and know when to use what. On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 7:02 PM, Kevin MacDonald kevinmacdon...@gmail.com wrote: Hello developers, I have come to some unfortunate conclusions about how Adobe operates. I would be interested to get your opinions on the matter. Some years ago I helped build out a desktop application using Macromedia Director. It ran on both Mac and Windows, and was heavily backed by web services. In principle it was much like an Adobe AIR app might be today. After a few years Adobe bought Macromedia Director, with promises to the developer community that they would continue to support it. They came out with a few maintenance releases that were extremely buggy, enough so that we tried to roll back to the previous version. However, Adobe made sure there were some gotchas that made it painful to either stay on the current version or roll back. Shortly thereafter they killed Director altogether. An Adobe evangelist came to our office and sold us hard on moving to Adobe AIR, which we did. We completely re-wrote our application on that platform. Now, several years later, Adobe is very obviously moving away from AIR and towards HTML5, again with promises to their loyal developers to continue supporting it. Based on their history what I expect Adobe to do is kill AIR before too long. And you should have no doubts that they can make it very painful to remain on that platform. For example, AIR apps use whatever version of Adobe Reader is installed on the client machine. Adobe Reader updates happen independently of updates to the AIR run time. The latest update to Adobe Reader broke certain aspects of our client application, something that might directly hurt our business. What can you do when the HTMLLoader object no longer correctly displays a PDF? What I expected Adobe to do - and what the evangelist led me to believe - was that Adobe would evolve AIR and Flash Builder towards HTML5 over time, bringing all of us along with them. But they don't do that. They scorch the earth and start over. So, what's next? I suppose we will hear from Adobe before too long that we should run out, buy PhoneGap Builder 1.0, and once again chase their code-once-deploy-everywhere carrot. We are not the customer. We are the product. We are the means by which Adobe makes money for their shareholders, nothing more. I suppose in true jaded developer fashion this should come as no shock to me. But the truth is, it never feels nice to be a pawn in someone else's game. Kevin
RE: [flexcoders] You are the product
I don't think there is a JIT inside (maybe I am wrong), so each instruction is decoded and emulated on the native CPU. The ActionScript 3 Virtual Machine in Flash Player does use a JIT. Gordon Smith, Adobe From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mihai Vrinceanu Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 11:20 AM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [flexcoders] You are the product Flash Player is a virtual machine. Last time I opened a *.swf file in a hex editor, it was a compressed file (I think zlib). After you decompress the file, you have to parse the structures inside (code, data, images, sounds). After that you have to load them inside the virtual machine and emulate the code. I don't think there is a JIT inside (maybe I am wrong), so each instruction is decoded and emulated on the native CPU. Excluding flash byte code, there is also a native decoder for images, videos and audio. Flash player also has support for UDP, TCP and other things inside (which need cpu and ram to work). If you open a page with 2 flash ads and a YouTube video embedded in it, you are in serious trouble. Each device has a different CPU, different memory bandwidth, different speed when writing on the internal memory. My point of view: Flash Player is an excellent product. Adobe should make it open source, invest money in future versions and sell support services (RedHat tactics). --- On Fri, 12/16/11, Bill Brutzman bill.brutz...@scottynow.com wrote: From: Bill Brutzman bill.brutz...@scottynow.com Subject: RE: [flexcoders] You are the product To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, December 16, 2011, 8:16 PM My sense is that Adobe has realized that it close to impossible to port Flash to the staggering proliferation of tablets, smart phones, and other devices. Does anybody expect Flash to run on a Kindle or a Nook? In my little world of fantasy… I wish I knew how Flash worked… Perhaps a standards-based Flash lite could be cranked into HTML-6. --Bill From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kevin MacDonald Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 12:50 PM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] You are the product Good points. Thanks for responding. I'm not sure why you conflate me knocking Adobe for a lack of willingness to learn. I code on a daily basis in half a dozen languages for a small company struggling to reach profitability. Our client application is one piece of that. The 'learning' in this case is that some companies can be trusted more than others. Adobe puts forth a consistent marketing message to software developers: Trust us! Follow us!, and they consistently fail to live up to that in order to sell us the next round of developer tools. Microsoft, while clearly capable of various brands of skulduggery, has consistently maintained a level of loyalty to their developers, and it has succeeded famously for them. Have you every noticed that 15 year old programs still run on Windows 7? I don't expect that from Adobe. But the heavy sell job on AIR followed by stepping at arms length from it irks me. Kevin 2011/12/16 Csomák Gábor csom...@gmail.com/mc/compose?to=csom...@gmail.com technology simply changes. i met a guy who was the lead engineer of commodore 64. do you think when he was on the top of his career, he stopped learning? this segment changes a lot. it is a lifelong learning. get used to it. html5 is not ready. even w3c says it'll be in 2014 (as i remember). and i think, it won't kill air. neither flash. of course it will depend on a lot of things, but the two technologies are good in different segments. you cannot do a prezi.comhttp://prezi.com in html5, and you cannot do an entire webpage in flash. (login remembers will not work, etc...) the key is to know both, and know when to use what. On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 7:02 PM, Kevin MacDonald kevinmacdon...@gmail.com/mc/compose?to=kevinmacdon...@gmail.com wrote: Hello developers, I have come to some unfortunate conclusions about how Adobe operates. I would be interested to get your opinions on the matter. Some years ago I helped build out a desktop application using Macromedia Director. It ran on both Mac and Windows, and was heavily backed by web services. In principle it was much like an Adobe AIR app might be today. After a few years Adobe bought Macromedia Director, with promises to the developer community that they would continue to support it. They came out with a few maintenance releases that were extremely buggy, enough so that we tried to roll back to the previous version. However, Adobe made sure there were some gotchas that made it painful to either stay on the current version or roll back. Shortly thereafter they killed Director altogether. An Adobe evangelist came to our office and sold us hard on moving to Adobe AIR, which we did. We completely re-wrote our
RE: [flexcoders] You are the product
As a Flex programmer, the Flash equivalent to Canvas is moot I do not use Flash Pro therefore I hardly care about Canvas. I barely know what SVG is I like the WSIWYG aspects of Flash Builder MXML and Action Script a happy and clean Java-like programming environment. DreamWeaver, HTML5, JavaScript, CSS, DOM, and jQuery are a kludgey bunch of awkward bolt-on tools and stuff built around bass ackwards web standards getting rammed down my throat. Flash had (better than Java) satisfied the Java dream write once run (almost) anywhere. And another thing I do not like the app-store market model I am wondering how long it will last. What users really want is for programs to run in a browser not to have to download pesky updates. Likewise, what developers want is subscriptions. --Bill From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Guy Morton Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 4:16 PM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] You are the product SVG + Javascript + Canvas ARE the equivalent to Flash in the web standards world. On 17/12/2011, at 5:16 AM, Bill Brutzman wrote: My sense is that Adobe has realized that it close to impossible to port Flash to the staggering proliferation of tablets, smart phones, and other devices. Does anybody expect Flash to run on a Kindle or a Nook? In my little world of fantasy I wish I knew how Flash worked Perhaps a standards-based Flash lite could be cranked into HTML-6. --Bill From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kevin MacDonald Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 12:50 PM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] You are the product Good points. Thanks for responding. I'm not sure why you conflate me knocking Adobe for a lack of willingness to learn. I code on a daily basis in half a dozen languages for a small company struggling to reach profitability. Our client application is one piece of that. The 'learning' in this case is that some companies can be trusted more than others. Adobe puts forth a consistent marketing message to software developers: Trust us! Follow us!, and they consistently fail to live up to that in order to sell us the next round of developer tools. Microsoft, while clearly capable of various brands of skulduggery, has consistently maintained a level of loyalty to their developers, and it has succeeded famously for them. Have you every noticed that 15 year old programs still run on Windows 7? I don't expect that from Adobe. But the heavy sell job on AIR followed by stepping at arms length from it irks me. Kevin 2011/12/16 Csomák Gábor csom...@gmail.com technology simply changes. i met a guy who was the lead engineer of commodore 64. do you think when he was on the top of his career, he stopped learning? this segment changes a lot. it is a lifelong learning. get used to it. html5 is not ready. even w3c says it'll be in 2014 (as i remember). and i think, it won't kill air. neither flash. of course it will depend on a lot of things, but the two technologies are good in different segments. you cannot do a prezi.com http://prezi.com/ in html5, and you cannot do an entire webpage in flash. (login remembers will not work, etc...) the key is to know both, and know when to use what. On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 7:02 PM, Kevin MacDonald kevinmacdon...@gmail.com wrote: Hello developers, I have come to some unfortunate conclusions about how Adobe operates. I would be interested to get your opinions on the matter. Some years ago I helped build out a desktop application using Macromedia Director. It ran on both Mac and Windows, and was heavily backed by web services. In principle it was much like an Adobe AIR app might be today. After a few years Adobe bought Macromedia Director, with promises to the developer community that they would continue to support it. They came out with a few maintenance releases that were extremely buggy, enough so that we tried to roll back to the previous version. However, Adobe made sure there were some gotchas that made it painful to either stay on the current version or roll back. Shortly thereafter they killed Director altogether. An Adobe evangelist came to our office and sold us hard on moving to Adobe AIR, which we did. We completely re-wrote our application on that platform. Now, several years later, Adobe is very obviously moving away from AIR and towards HTML5, again with promises to their loyal developers to continue supporting it. Based on their history what I expect Adobe to do is kill AIR before too long. And you should have no doubts that they can make it very painful to remain on that platform. For example, AIR apps use whatever version of Adobe Reader is installed on the client machine. Adobe Reader updates happen independently of updates to the AIR run time. The latest update to Adobe
Re: [flexcoders] You are the product
Except for the fact that HTML 5 apps look like shit compared to flash, the run like shit, they can be freely stolen by anyone - and generally they rely on lots of browser and CSS hacks to be pseudo consistent. Html5 really sucks - its just a shame the world has decided Flash must no longer be used for anything. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 16, 2011, at 1:15 PM, Guy Morton g...@alchemy.com.au wrote: SVG + Javascript + Canvas ARE the equivalent to Flash in the web standards world. On 17/12/2011, at 5:16 AM, Bill Brutzman wrote: My sense is that Adobe has realized that it close to impossible to port Flash to the staggering proliferation of tablets, smart phones, and other devices. Does anybody expect Flash to run on a Kindle or a Nook? In my little world of fantasy… I wish I knew how Flash worked… Perhaps a standards-based Flash lite could be cranked into HTML-6. --Bill From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kevin MacDonald Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 12:50 PM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] You are the product Good points. Thanks for responding. I'm not sure why you conflate me knocking Adobe for a lack of willingness to learn. I code on a daily basis in half a dozen languages for a small company struggling to reach profitability. Our client application is one piece of that. The 'learning' in this case is that some companies can be trusted more than others. Adobe puts forth a consistent marketing message to software developers: Trust us! Follow us!, and they consistently fail to live up to that in order to sell us the next round of developer tools. Microsoft, while clearly capable of various brands of skulduggery, has consistently maintained a level of loyalty to their developers, and it has succeeded famously for them. Have you every noticed that 15 year old programs still run on Windows 7? I don't expect that from Adobe. But the heavy sell job on AIR followed by stepping at arms length from it irks me. Kevin 2011/12/16 Csomák Gábor csom...@gmail.com technology simply changes. i met a guy who was the lead engineer of commodore 64. do you think when he was on the top of his career, he stopped learning? this segment changes a lot. it is a lifelong learning. get used to it. html5 is not ready. even w3c says it'll be in 2014 (as i remember). and i think, it won't kill air. neither flash. of course it will depend on a lot of things, but the two technologies are good in different segments. you cannot do a prezi.com in html5, and you cannot do an entire webpage in flash. (login remembers will not work, etc...) the key is to know both, and know when to use what. On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 7:02 PM, Kevin MacDonald kevinmacdon...@gmail.com wrote: Hello developers, I have come to some unfortunate conclusions about how Adobe operates. I would be interested to get your opinions on the matter. Some years ago I helped build out a desktop application using Macromedia Director. It ran on both Mac and Windows, and was heavily backed by web services. In principle it was much like an Adobe AIR app might be today. After a few years Adobe bought Macromedia Director, with promises to the developer community that they would continue to support it. They came out with a few maintenance releases that were extremely buggy, enough so that we tried to roll back to the previous version. However, Adobe made sure there were some gotchas that made it painful to either stay on the current version or roll back. Shortly thereafter they killed Director altogether. An Adobe evangelist came to our office and sold us hard on moving to Adobe AIR, which we did. We completely re-wrote our application on that platform. Now, several years later, Adobe is very obviously moving away from AIR and towards HTML5, again with promises to their loyal developers to continue supporting it. Based on their history what I expect Adobe to do is kill AIR before too long. And you should have no doubts that they can make it very painful to remain on that platform. For example, AIR apps use whatever version of Adobe Reader is installed on the client machine. Adobe Reader updates happen independently of updates to the AIR run time. The latest update to Adobe Reader broke certain aspects of our client application, something that might directly hurt our business. What can you do when the HTMLLoader object no longer correctly displays a PDF? What I expected Adobe to do - and what the evangelist led me to believe - was that Adobe would evolve AIR and Flash Builder towards HTML5 over time, bringing all of us along with them. But they don't do that. They scorch the earth and start over. So, what's next? I suppose we will hear from Adobe before too long that we
Re: [flexcoders] You are the product
My sense is that Adobe has realized that it close to impossible to port Flash to the staggering proliferation of tablets, smart phones, and other devices. That's why they have AIR. The move away from Flash by Adobe may (and I'm really guessing here) have to do with Windows 8 and its metro style. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_%28design_language%29 In Windows 8 the start screen (desktop) will look like a smart device (with apps). Those are run in a slim (lightweight) browser that does not support plugins. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Windows_8_Developer_Preview_Start_Screen.png When you head off on the internet from one of those apps, you'll be using the metro browser to surf the internet, meaning: no plugins. If you have the time, check out the Win8 videos: http://www.buildwindows.com/ Not sure which one has the browser explanation in it.. sorry. I hope Adobe doesn't give up on FlashBuilder (and AS3/MXML) and hope that moving forward we'll be able to use the same tool to create JS/HTML apps, much like you can do now with Java, GWT and SmartGWT. Google Web Toolkit: http://code.google.com/intl/nl/webtoolkit/ SmartGWT: http://code.google.com/p/smartgwt/ Samples: http://www.smartclient.com/smartgwt/showcase/ (puts flex component framework to shame) If Adobe came up with something like that, I'd be all over it. regards, Peter - Original Message - From: Bill Brutzman bill.brutz...@scottynow.com To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 7:16 PM Subject: RE: [flexcoders] You are the product My sense is that Adobe has realized that it close to impossible to port Flash to the staggering proliferation of tablets, smart phones, and other devices. Does anybody expect Flash to run on a Kindle or a Nook? In my little world of fantasy. I wish I knew how Flash worked. Perhaps a standards-based Flash lite could be cranked into HTML-6. --Bill
[flexcoders] You are the product
Hello developers, I have come to some unfortunate conclusions about how Adobe operates. I would be interested to get your opinions on the matter. Some years ago I helped build out a desktop application using Macromedia Director. It ran on both Mac and Windows, and was heavily backed by web services. In principle it was much like an Adobe AIR app might be today. After a few years Adobe bought Macromedia Director, with promises to the developer community that they would continue to support it. They came out with a few maintenance releases that were extremely buggy, enough so that we tried to roll back to the previous version. However, Adobe made sure there were some gotchas that made it painful to either stay on the current version or roll back. Shortly thereafter they killed Director altogether. An Adobe evangelist came to our office and sold us hard on moving to Adobe AIR, which we did. We completely re-wrote our application on that platform. Now, several years later, Adobe is very obviously moving away from AIR and towards HTML5, again with promises to their loyal developers to continue supporting it. Based on their history what I expect Adobe to do is kill AIR before too long. And you should have no doubts that they can make it very painful to remain on that platform. For example, AIR apps use whatever version of Adobe Reader is installed on the client machine. Adobe Reader updates happen independently of updates to the AIR run time. The latest update to Adobe Reader broke certain aspects of our client application, something that might directly hurt our business. What can you do when the HTMLLoader object no longer correctly displays a PDF? What I expected Adobe to do - and what the evangelist led me to believe - was that Adobe would evolve AIR and Flash Builder towards HTML5 over time, bringing all of us along with them. But they don't do that. They scorch the earth and start over. So, what's next? I suppose we will hear from Adobe before too long that we should run out, buy PhoneGap Builder 1.0, and once again chase their code-once-deploy-everywhere carrot. We are not the customer. We are the product. We are the means by which Adobe makes money for their shareholders, nothing more. I suppose in true jaded developer fashion this should come as no shock to me. But the truth is, it never feels nice to be a pawn in someone else's game. Kevin
