Re: FLUXLIST: Mesostics: repressive guidance
Hi Rod, Thanks for the lesson! I think I got it. So the restriction only carries to the following line and then you start over fresh right? Not to the rest of the poem right? and when you say not *followed* by as in next (in order) you find a word that has an E, but not followed by a P: does that mean directly followed by or do you mean the whole line of text can't contain that letter at all? you say You can't have any words that already have the following meso letter. so all words in line one would contain no E line two no P line three no R etc. is that right? and then make no corerections to tense or add any 'bridge material'. You say it 'implies the context of the original without including all of the words. So are you saying that you would leave out anywords from a found phrase that has the offending letter and otherwise keep the other words? Sorry that the lines got out of place when posted. Cecil Rod Stasick wrote: Hi Cecil, The first word Reparation can't be used because it already contains your next letter E (rEparation). You can't have any words that already have the following meso letter. I don't know what your original text was, so I can't do what you wanted to do, BUT I can create a mesostic based on repressive guidance and the text that you just gave us. Actually, it'll be unfinished because I don't have enough of your text. First you look for a word that has an R but DOESN'T have the following E: ouR next (in order) you find a word that has an E, but not followed by a P: govErnment then, a P not followed by an R: inausPicious etc...BUT, any wing words (words outside the word that has the mesoletter) can't have the following letter either, so this is part of it's genius - it 'implies the context of the original without including all of the words. ouR govErnment inausPicious to libeRty Engage in counterproductive, immoral baSed fundamentalS In contra-distinction to tyranny. I had to stop there, because even tho there are about 5 more words with the letter V in them, each one of them is followed by the letter E and therefore cannot be used. This is an example of a 50% mesostic. The 100% mesostic limits your word choices even more. Also, being true to it's nature, no words are normally given written changed tenses. The found tenses are kept. It has the distinct advantage of keeping (or giving) the text life - an ever changing perspective that brings new ideas and doesn't necessarily adhere to the old ones. Hope this helps! Rod On 2006 May 19, at 3:23 PM, Cecil Touchon wrote: hey rod, does this work? I took a found phrase from some spam mail (repressive guidance) then I used it as a search term in google then I took one phrase from each resultant web page in the order that they were returned as results finding a phrase that I liked and that contained the spinal letter for that line. [bracketted] elements were added to bind things together when needed. cecil Reparation shall be made [for] those who experienced our govErnment’s abuses of dissenters any form of government inausPicious to liberty, engage[d] in counteRrproductive, immoral pre-emptive war will make their decisions basEd on the four fundamentals. In contra- diStinction to tyranny their bizarre, oppressive tacticS with their own citizens is cause for consIderable concern used to castigate us as a political moVement revealing secrets concErning the security of the state. The liGht of operational experience constrained what they coUld ask entirely in an Indigenous language. Their ahistorical, fear-riDden, repressive approach [attracted] outsiders and reactionAries [who] urgently [a] call for unity calling attentioN to abuses at the highest levels poliCy reform groups all over the world declare never accede to state or cultural policiEs. Rotokas and Mura-Piraha have only 11 phonemes, the smallest on record. --- Now playing: Roger Reynolds - A Portrait Of Vanzetti (1962–63)
Re: FLUXLIST: Mesostics: repressive guidance
Thanks Allan! I really enjoyed making that work and the way of gathering the lines of text - one line from each document of the search results for the spinal phrase give a bit more structure than my regular way of constructing poems which are more haphazard. If I add the other restriction of each line omitting any words that contain the following spinal letter, then that could add another way to dismiss various phrases and select others - but I am not sure that is needed for my purposes. We'll see. Interesting. So since that is not quite a Mesostic as Rod mentions then I suppose I should come up with some other name like maybe search phrase or spam totems or something. I also do not like words arranged purely by chance as a final result. I do like how material, gathered by chance that is created by a system, allows for serendipity and some personal choices derived from insights caused by the material gathered. That gives the collage/found material element that I am looking for. I also like including a few words of my own [in the brackets] that, for me, gives a little extra touch of direction like adding shading to a form to force it to go behind or in front of something else or inclide it to flow in this or that direction. I like ambiguity but not total confusion or having things so criptic that others won't want to spend their time to figure it out. A certain amount of accessability, I think, is a good thing. I like Cage a lot but his way of working and the resultant works do not always satisfy me. I believe a work of art should inspire one to cherish it. Cecil Allan Revich wrote: Cecil, That is very cool! It will stay that way in my head whether it works or not ;-) Allan From: owner-FLUXLIST@scribble.com [mailto:owner-FLUXLIST@scribble.com] On Behalf Of Cecil Touchon Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 4:24 PM To: FLUXLIST@scribble.com Subject: FLUXLIST: Mesostics: repressive guidance hey rod, does this work? I took a found phrase from some spam mail (repressive guidance) then I used it as a search term in google then I took one phrase from each resultant web page in the order that they were returned as results finding a phrase that I liked and that contained the spinal letter for that line. [bracketted] elements were added to bind things together when needed. cecil Reparation shall be made [for] those who experienced our govErnments abuses of dissenters any form of government inausPicious to liberty, engage[d] in counteRrproductive, immoral pre-emptive war will make their decisions basEd on the four fundamentals. In contra-diStinction to tyranny their bizarre, oppressive tacticS with their own citizens is cause for consIderable concern used to castigate us as a political moVement revealing secrets concErning the security of the state. The liGht of operational experience constrained what they coUld ask entirely in an Indigenous language. Their ahistorical, fear-riDden, repressive approach [attracted] outsiders and reactionAries [who] urgently [a] call for unity calling attentioN to abuses at the highest levels poliCy reform groups all over the world declare never accede to state or cultural policiEs.
Re: FLUXLIST: Mesostics: repressive guidance
Sure, no prob. These thing are sometimes easier to present in person. Remember these are the two kinds: • 50 percent mesostics: between any two mesoletters, you can't have the second and • 100 percent mesostics: between any two mesoletters, you can't have either. Let's use The Gettysburg Address as the source text and LINCOLN as the spine: Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation or any nation so conceived and so dedicated can long endure. We are met on a great battlefield of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field as a final resting-place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this. But in a larger sense, we cannot dedicate, we cannot consecrate, we cannot hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead who struggled here have consecrated it far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living rather to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us--that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion-- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain, that this nation under God shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth. OK, so we start from the beginning of the text and look for a word that has an L (our first mesoletter) but no I because the next instance of an I will be the next mesoletter. We find the word aLl - notice that we can't use liberty because an i follows in the same word. OK, so we start our mesostic with aLl ...now, continuing in the text, we find the next word that has an I, remembering that our following letter N will be in the next line...and so on... As for the wing words, you can have as many as you want as long as they don't break the rules. Wing words on the right of your spine can't have the FOLLOWING mesoletter included anywhere in it's phrase and wing words on the left of the spine cannot have the PREVIOUS mesoletter included anywhere in it's phrase. So, let's do LINCOLN just once and only use one word for each line (no wing words - we can add those later), we get (if I can line the letters up - MUCH easier on paper!): aLl cIvil testiNg dediCated lOng battLefield portioN By the way, when you come to the last letter in your spine, you act as if you are going to start your spine word over. In other words, for LINCOLN when you come to the last letter - N - you are searching for a word that has an N, that is not followed by a L (your first letter in LINCOLN). OK, so let's add some wing words. There are some exceptions in a few of his works, but, generally, John made no rules about length of the wing words. You can have none...or you can have lots...as long as it doesn't break the mesostic rule that we've been speaking of - repeated letters before the mesoletters. Wing words can be added to make a particular point or create your own special slant on what is or can be said. Punctuation can be implied by it's absence. For example: aLl men are created cIvil testiNg whether that nation so dediCated can lOng endure a great battLefield a portioN of that fieLd [and so on...] This is an example of choosing wing words that allows you to convey, let's say, a patriotic meaning, but, in another instance, you may be able to add just enough wing words to give some *other* implied meaning to the text. and so it goes... Rod --- Now playing: Clarence Wheeler The Enforcers - Right On
Re: FLUXLIST: Mesostics: repressive guidance
On 2006 May 20, at 2:22 AM, Cecil Touchon wrote: You say it 'implies the context of the original without including all of the words. So are you saying that you would leave out anywords from a found phrase that has the offending letter and otherwise keep the other words? No, you have to stop before you get to a word that has the following mesoletter. The choice of how many wing words is just that - choice and this has been a bugaboo to some folks who'd always thought that Cage made NO choices, but he actually made quite a few choices in his compositions. For me, I think the ideal number of wing words is the minimum number that would convey a thought. If Madawg, for example, decided to write a mesostic with just single words, then there would be nothing anti- mesostic about it. A criteria *could* be that if you could successfully convey what you wanted using the minimum number of words - even NO wing words - then maybe this could be considered a well-done mesostic but, there are really no rules concerning this (except for the main rule). I'm more inclined to enjoy the beauty of how it actually looks on paper with the wing words as well as it's brief expression. There are some other beautiful forms that do this quite well too - the haiku, the autoku, etc... Here's a 100% mesostic on The Gettysburg Address using LINCOLN (no L *OR* I between L and I): equaL so conceIved aNd dediCated lOng fieLd fittiNg we shouLd do thIs larger seNse dediCate hallOw this struggLed coNsecrated worLd wIll Note it Can fOrget Last devotioN highLy dIed Nation Rod --- Now playing: Greg Davis/Steven Hess - 042203(05)
Re: FLUXLIST: Mesostics: repressive guidance
On 2006 May 20, at 3:12 AM, Cecil Touchon wrote: I also like including a few words of my own [in the brackets] that, for me, gives a little extra touch of direction like adding shading to a form to force it to go behind or in front of something else or inclide it to flow in this or that direction. I like ambiguity but not total confusion or having things so criptic that others won't want to spend their time to figure it out. A certain amount of accessability, I think, is a good thing. I like Cage a lot but his way of working and the resultant works do not always satisfy me. I believe a work of art should inspire one to cherish it. Yes, this is what can make your text pieces *your* text pieces - using whatever methods or rules that you've chosen to give them your own shading - so to speak. I stand on nearly the opposite pole to you Cecil when it comes to John's works. The joy I find in them is precisely from the point that they don't follow the marching feet of syntax. Each letter, syllable, word, and/ or phrase gives breathing room that exists outside the ego and allows my brain to construct sense (or nonsense, if I choose) out of the flow of text. I can look at the previous 100% mesostic of Lincoln's G. A. (or any of John's work) and read it differently each time by placing pauses in ever changing places - with each pause contributing to a different meaning or feeling. For me, it's like looking at a canvas from various angles. I get that feeling with books like Finnegans Wake and the mesostics derived from it too. Same with soft cinema. I think it's great that you can use the mesostic form as a springboard for creating your own brand of poetry. This seems to be one of the creative artist's gift - to be able to use lateral thinking and/or extrapolation to further their creative work. keep us up-to-date, Rod --- Now playing: Sun Ra Arkestra - World Worlds
FLUXLIST: Mesostics: repressive guidance
hey rod, does this work? I took a found phrase from some spam mail (repressive guidance) then I used it as a search term in google then I took one phrase from each resultant web page in the order that they were returned as results finding a phrase that I liked and that contained the spinal letter for that line. [bracketted] elements were added to bind things together when needed. cecil Reparation shall be made [for] those who experienced our govErnments abuses of dissenters any form of government inausPicious to liberty, engage[d] in counteRrproductive, immoral pre-emptive war will make their decisions basEd on the four fundamentals. In contra-diStinction to tyranny their bizarre, oppressive tacticS with their own citizens is cause for consIderable concern used to castigate us as a political moVement revealing secrets concErning the security of the state. The liGht of operational experience constrained what they coUld ask entirely in an Indigenous language. Their ahistorical, fear-riDden, repressive approach [attracted] outsiders and reactionAries [who] urgently [a] call for unity calling attentioN to abuses at the highest levels poliCy reform groups all over the world declare never accede to state or cultural policiEs.
RE: FLUXLIST: Mesostics: repressive guidance
Cecil, That is very cool! It will stay that way in my head whether it works or not ;-) Allan From: owner-FLUXLIST@scribble.com [mailto:owner-FLUXLIST@scribble.com] On Behalf Of Cecil Touchon Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 4:24 PM To: FLUXLIST@scribble.com Subject: FLUXLIST: Mesostics: repressive guidance hey rod, does this work? I took a found phrase from some spam mail (repressive guidance) then I used it as a search term in google then I took one phrase from each resultant web page in the order that they were returned as results finding a phrase that I liked and that contained the spinal letter for that line. [bracketted] elements were added to bind things together when needed. cecil Reparation shall be made [for] those who experienced our govErnments abuses of dissenters any form of government inausPicious to liberty, engage[d] in counteRrproductive, immoral pre-emptive war will make their decisions basEd on the four fundamentals. In contra-diStinction to tyranny their bizarre, oppressive tacticS with their own citizens is cause for consIderable concern used to castigate us as a political moVement revealing secrets concErning the security of the state. The liGht of operational experience constrained what they coUld ask entirely in an Indigenous language. Their ahistorical, fear-riDden, repressive approach [attracted] outsiders and reactionAries [who] urgently [a] call for unity calling attentioN to abuses at the highest levels poliCy reform groups all over the world declare never accede to state or cultural policiEs.
Re: FLUXLIST: Mesostics: repressive guidance
Hi Cecil, The first word Reparation can't be used because it already contains your next letter E (rEparation). You can't have any words that already have the following meso letter. I don't know what your original text was, so I can't do what you wanted to do, BUT I can create a mesostic based on repressive guidance and the text that you just gave us. Actually, it'll be unfinished because I don't have enough of your text. First you look for a word that has an R but DOESN'T have the following E: ouR next (in order) you find a word that has an E, but not followed by a P: govErnment then, a P not followed by an R: inausPicious etc...BUT, any wing words (words outside the word that has the mesoletter) can't have the following letter either, so this is part of it's genius - it 'implies the context of the original without including all of the words. ouR govErnment inausPicious to libeRty Engage in counterproductive, immoral baSed fundamentalS In contra-distinction to tyranny. I had to stop there, because even tho there are about 5 more words with the letter V in them, each one of them is followed by the letter E and therefore cannot be used. This is an example of a 50% mesostic. The 100% mesostic limits your word choices even more. Also, being true to it's nature, no words are normally given written changed tenses. The found tenses are kept. It has the distinct advantage of keeping (or giving) the text life - an ever changing perspective that brings new ideas and doesn't necessarily adhere to the old ones. Hope this helps! Rod On 2006 May 19, at 3:23 PM, Cecil Touchon wrote: hey rod, does this work? I took a found phrase from some spam mail (repressive guidance) then I used it as a search term in google then I took one phrase from each resultant web page in the order that they were returned as results finding a phrase that I liked and that contained the spinal letter for that line. [bracketted] elements were added to bind things together when needed. cecil Reparation shall be made [for] those who experienced our govErnment’s abuses of dissenters any form of government inausPicious to liberty, engage[d] in counteRrproductive, immoral pre-emptive war will make their decisions basEd on the four fundamentals. In contra- diStinction to tyranny their bizarre, oppressive tacticS with their own citizens is cause for consIderable concern used to castigate us as a political moVement revealing secrets concErning the security of the state. The liGht of operational experience constrained what they coUld ask entirely in an Indigenous language. Their ahistorical, fear-riDden, repressive approach [attracted] outsiders and reactionAries [who] urgently [a] call for unity calling attentioN to abuses at the highest levels poliCy reform groups all over the world declare never accede to state or cultural policiEs. Rotokas and Mura-Piraha have only 11 phonemes, the smallest on record. --- Now playing: Roger Reynolds - A Portrait Of Vanzetti (1962–63)
Re: FLUXLIST: Mesostics: repressive guidance
Also, I will say too that it's sometimes difficult to line up all of the mesoletters in a straight line, but Cage's directions allowed the text to be written horizontally too: ouR govErnment inausPicious to libeRty Engage in counterproductive, immoral baSed fundamentalS In contra-distinction to tyranny. On 2006 May 19, at 4:36 PM, Rod Stasick wrote: ouR govErnment inausPicious to libeRty Engage in counterproductive, immoral baSed fundamentalS In contra-distinction to tyranny. Rod --- Now playing: Mieko Shiomi - Marian Zazeela
