Re: [fonc] my two cents

2010-03-04 Thread Richard Karpinski
Michael and Robert, The only theorist I know who deals with these issues in detail is Tom Gilb ( t...@gilb.com) in the decades old *Principles of Software Engineering Management* and the more recent *Competitive Engineering*. Well, his son, Kai is now, also writing about these learnability,

Re: [fonc] System A vs B, what?

2010-03-04 Thread John Zabroski
On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 7:20 AM, frank fr...@frankhirsch.net wrote: To sum it up: Either system A is simpler (fewer nodes, no interactions), or the image you sent is in some essential way misleading. Or option 3: You are making the same mistake my brilliant CEO makes: that you are somehow

RE: [fonc] System A vs B, what?

2010-03-04 Thread Carl Gundel
Right, but it is easy to be too clever. ;-) From: fonc-boun...@vpri.org [mailto:fonc-boun...@vpri.org] On Behalf Of John Zabroski Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 10:01 AM To: Fundamentals of New Computing Subject: Re: [fonc] System A vs B, what? On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 7:20 AM, frank

Re: [fonc] my two cents

2010-03-04 Thread John Zabroski
On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 5:23 AM, Michael Arnoldus ch...@mu.dk wrote: So it's still not clear to me what exactly you mean by trustworthiness John ... well it's actually not clear to me what you mean by complexity either, but in the context of making programmers more productive, complexity

RE: [fonc] System A vs B, what?

2010-03-04 Thread Carl Gundel
Frank wrote: Alejandro Garcia wrote: Which one of the following systems is more complex? (look at the attached image) [...] Most peoplo would say that System A is more complex than system B. [...] But other people would say that System B is simplier. [...] I assume here you meant to write

Re: [fonc] my two cents

2010-03-04 Thread Andrey Fedorov
Size in terms of number of bytes or number of lines isn't interesting to me. It's a variable that is easy to measure, but is dependent on too many other variables. Just as with any model, we should be looking for variables as independent as possible. Complexity of an algorithm without programmers

Re: [fonc] System A vs B, what?

2010-03-04 Thread Andrey Fedorov
The picture you gave isn't a system, it's a directed graph. I guess you're implying anything you imagine to be a system can be represented as a graph - but what *is* a system? Also, you can define the complexity of a graph in any way you like. Until you show that this definition is somehow

Re: [fonc] my two cents

2010-03-04 Thread Michael Arnoldus
John, On Mar 4, 2010, at 15:50 , John Zabroski wrote: There are many *forms* of complexity and using just one *metric* seems silly to me. Makes sense. My thoughts on GUIs are precisely intended to make human beings more valuable, but I would like to dissuade all of you from thinking

Re: [fonc] my two cents

2010-03-04 Thread Andrey Fedorov
Michael Arnoldus wrote: On Mar 4, 2010, at 15:50 , John Zabroski wrote: There are many *forms* of complexity and using just one *metric* seems silly to me. Makes sense. So you suggest we should keep saying complexity without specifying which kind we're talking about? No! Pick one form of

Re: [fonc] my two cents

2010-03-04 Thread Michael Arnoldus
On Mar 4, 2010, at 23:49 , Andrey Fedorov wrote: Michael Arnoldus wrote: On Mar 4, 2010, at 15:50 , John Zabroski wrote: There are many *forms* of complexity and using just one *metric* seems silly to me. Makes sense. So you suggest we should keep saying complexity without specifying

Re: [fonc] System A vs B, what?

2010-03-04 Thread frank
Oops, my bad... =) Sorry to interrupt! . . . Go on, there's nothing to see... (whistle) ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc

Re: [fonc] System A vs B, what?

2010-03-04 Thread Alejandro Garcia
On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 3:09 PM, Andrey Fedorov anfedo...@gmail.com wrote: The picture you gave isn't a system, it's a directed graph. I guess you're implying anything you imagine to be a system can be represented as a graph - but what *is* a system? Well it isn't a system in the same sense