Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
On 23 June 2010 21:31, Mariano Cecowski marianocecow...@yahoo.com.ar wrote: --- El mié 23-jun-10, Michael Peel em...@mikepeel.net escribió: I always think than not using reCaptcha is a shame, as it's a nice way to get people to proofread text in a reasonably efficient way. It would be really nice if someone could create something similar that proofreads OCR'd text from Wikisource... hint, hint. And how do you decide that what was entered is wrong or right? It turns out that having several randomly-selected people check a given recaptcha is very accurate indeed. http://recaptcha.net/learnmore.html But if a computer can't read such a CAPTCHA, how does the system know the correct answer to the puzzle? Here's how: Each new word that cannot be read correctly by OCR is given to a user in conjunction with another word for which the answer is already known. The user is then asked to read both words. If they solve the one for which the answer is known, the system assumes their answer is correct for the new one. The system then gives the new image to a number of other people to determine, with higher confidence, whether the original answer was correct. Your question is similar to But if anyone can edit Wikipedia, how do you know what's entered will be accurate? - d. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
Mark Williamson wrote: In addition, I have a feeling that article overstates the English abilities of the average non-native internet user. Yes, lots of people have a very (very!) basic command of English, but that is not the same as functional bilingualism. A user may happen to know the name for a horse, but what are the chances a casual user from Peru knows the name for an anteater, a giraffe or a jellyfish? Amusingly enough, a former student of Martin Luther, by the name of Michael Agricola, faced this problem when translating the bible into Finnish in the 17th century. Yes, Virginia, the Finnish language really didn't exist as a written word but late in the 17th century. Michaels solution to the knotty problem of how to describe animals the common folk had not really had any experience of, was to rely on the most conspicuous visual, which often ended up mildly humorous to later readers. An ostritch he dubbed what would be literally Stork-camel, (kamelikurki Lion in a more amusing coinage was to Michael a noble deer (jalopeura), going with the color of the pelt despite the fact that lions are hardly ruminants. Yours, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 3:01 AM, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen cimonav...@gmail.com wrote: Lion in a more amusing coinage was to Michael a noble deer (jalopeura), going with the color of the pelt despite the fact that lions are hardly ruminants. Yours, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen Not to mention the cats not cattle thing. A pride versus a herd is a world of difference in the realm of collective connotation. -- ~Keegan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 6:40 AM, Nikola Smolenski smole...@eunet.rs wrote: On 06/22/2010 08:07 PM, Magnus Manske wrote: I would consider this state as a poor reflection on Commons' accessibility. Especially as Google image search (imho, the likeliest avenue of searching for images) gives 130 000 pictures of horses on Commons if searched in English, zero if searched in Estonian (hobu), and while it gives 160 000 results for a Hungarian search (ló) on the first page only one of it is an image that resembles a horse. Here's a thought: Enter hobu into translate.google.com, leave source language on automatic and target on English, and it will happily translate it into horse. Could we offer a translation link in search? As in, translate my query into English and try again? I'm sure we can come to an arrangement with Google (or someone else). I already made something similar: http://toolserver.org/~nikola/mis.php Nice! Now it needs language auto-detect, and Estonian for the example (unless I didn't see it), and, of course, integration into Commons... ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
Oh, I misread that. Disregard. On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 3:13 AM, Keegan Peterzell keegan.w...@gmail.comwrote: On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 3:01 AM, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen cimonav...@gmail.com wrote: Lion in a more amusing coinage was to Michael a noble deer (jalopeura), going with the color of the pelt despite the fact that lions are hardly ruminants. Yours, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen Not to mention the cats not cattle thing. A pride versus a herd is a world of difference in the realm of collective connotation. -- ~Keegan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan -- ~Keegan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
Samuel Klein meta...@... writes: I'd like to see such translation tools used to enhance the tags used to identify an image, so that all internet searches can find images by those tags. I think this stuff should be left for Google. A clever search engine should be able to figure out that if you are looking for Pferd images, horse images will also be of interest; and Google is getting clever quickly in this regard. (For example, recently Google web search has been offering to translate the search phrase to English, and translate the results back to you.) OTOH, it would be a nice feature to show translated page and category names when someone looks at the page with the interface language set to non-English. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 11:17 AM, Tisza Gergo gti...@gmail.com wrote: Samuel Klein meta...@... writes: I'd like to see such translation tools used to enhance the tags used to identify an image, so that all internet searches can find images by those tags. I think this stuff should be left for Google. A clever search engine should be able to figure out that if you are looking for Pferd images, horse images will also be of interest; and Google is getting clever quickly in this regard. (For example, recently Google web search has been offering to translate the search phrase to English, and translate the results back to you.) OTOH, it would be a nice feature to show translated page and category names when someone looks at the page with the interface language set to non-English. OK, technical solution (hackish as usual, but with potential IMHO): http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Searchsearch=Pferd+SchachwithJS=MediaWiki:SearchTranslation.js Basically, this will (on the search page only!) look at the last query run (the one currently in the edit box), check several language editions of Wikipedia for articles from the individual words (in this case, Pferd and Schach), count how many exist, pick the language with the most hits (in this case, German), and put a link to link to Nikola's tool under the search box. The link pre-fills the source language and query in the tool, which automatically opens the appropriate search page. In essence, clicking on the link gets you to the toolserver and back to the search, this time in English, without you noticing. I am checking all the languages the Nikola's tool offers (so no Estonian), except English (no point, really). Experimenting, I noticed that even if your original query got you some results (e.g. Schaufel=47), the translation in English will give you more (Shovel=484). I tried to restrict the language search for the languages accepted by the browser (so, using 1 or 2 queries instead of 32), but there appears to be no way in JavaScript to get that information. MediaWiki could pass it on, though... Feel free to improve! Cheers, Magnus ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
Magnus Manske magnusman...@... writes: Basically, this will (on the search page only!) look at the last query run (the one currently in the edit box), check several language editions of Wikipedia for articles from the individual words (in this case, Pferd and Schach), count how many exist, pick the language with the most hits (in this case, German), and put a link to link to Nikola's tool under the search box. The link pre-fills the source language and query in the tool, which automatically opens the appropriate search page. Again, I would suggest using Google (or an alternative with open data, if one exists) instead of trying to reinvent the wheel: http://translate.google.com/#auto|en|Pferd%20Schach http://code.google.com/apis/ajaxlanguage/documentation/#Detect It might support less languages then we have wikipedias for, but I'm pretty sure it would give better results for the major ones. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Tisza Gergo gti...@gmail.com wrote: Magnus Manske magnusman...@... writes: Basically, this will (on the search page only!) look at the last query run (the one currently in the edit box), check several language editions of Wikipedia for articles from the individual words (in this case, Pferd and Schach), count how many exist, pick the language with the most hits (in this case, German), and put a link to link to Nikola's tool under the search box. The link pre-fills the source language and query in the tool, which automatically opens the appropriate search page. Again, I would suggest using Google (or an alternative with open data, if one exists) instead of trying to reinvent the wheel: http://translate.google.com/#auto|en|Pferd%20Schach http://code.google.com/apis/ajaxlanguage/documentation/#Detect It might support less languages then we have wikipedias for, but I'm pretty sure it would give better results for the major ones. Well, that's what I suggested a few mails ago in this very thread. However, people didn't seem to want it. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
Like I said before, If I can get some template support on commons, Ive got a translation tool that uses one of googles APIs for translating. I just need some assistance with figuring out how to best integrate it into commons. But I do have a on demand mass translation tool. John On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:17 AM, Tisza Gergo gti...@gmail.com wrote: Magnus Manske magnusman...@... writes: Basically, this will (on the search page only!) look at the last query run (the one currently in the edit box), check several language editions of Wikipedia for articles from the individual words (in this case, Pferd and Schach), count how many exist, pick the language with the most hits (in this case, German), and put a link to link to Nikola's tool under the search box. The link pre-fills the source language and query in the tool, which automatically opens the appropriate search page. Again, I would suggest using Google (or an alternative with open data, if one exists) instead of trying to reinvent the wheel: http://translate.google.com/#auto|en|Pferd%20Schachhttp://translate.google.com/#auto%7Cen%7CPferd%20Schach http://code.google.com/apis/ajaxlanguage/documentation/#Detect It might support less languages then we have wikipedias for, but I'm pretty sure it would give better results for the major ones. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
On 23 June 2010 15:34, Magnus Manske magnusman...@googlemail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Tisza Gergo gti...@gmail.com wrote: Magnus Manske magnusman...@... writes: Basically, this will (on the search page only!) look at the last query run (the one currently in the edit box), check several language Again, I would suggest using Google (or an alternative with open data, if one exists) instead of trying to reinvent the wheel: Well, that's what I suggested a few mails ago in this very thread. However, people didn't seem to want it. Reliance on Google for what is really an essential function for those who aren't native English speakers is problematic because it's (a) third-party (b) closed. Same reason we don't use reCaptcha. - d. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
Дана Wednesday 23 June 2010 10:13:39 Magnus Manske написа: On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 6:40 AM, Nikola Smolenski smole...@eunet.rs wrote: On 06/22/2010 08:07 PM, Magnus Manske wrote: Here's a thought: Enter hobu into translate.google.com, leave source language on automatic and target on English, and it will happily translate it into horse. Could we offer a translation link in search? As in, translate my query into English and try again? I'm sure we can come to an arrangement with Google (or someone else). I already made something similar: http://toolserver.org/~nikola/mis.php Nice! Now it needs language auto-detect, and Estonian for the example (unless I didn't see it), and, of course, integration into Commons... All done, and I leave the integration to someone who knows how to navigate the community's labyrinths. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
Дана Wednesday 23 June 2010 16:34:26 Magnus Manske написа: On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Tisza Gergo gti...@gmail.com wrote: Again, I would suggest using Google (or an alternative with open data, if one exists) instead of trying to reinvent the wheel: http://translate.google.com/#auto|en|Pferd%20Schach http://code.google.com/apis/ajaxlanguage/documentation/#Detect It might support less languages then we have wikipedias for, but I'm pretty sure it would give better results for the major ones. Well, that's what I suggested a few mails ago in this very thread. However, people didn't seem to want it. This tool of mine does use Google Translate, so probably it could be done in Javascript fully, if someone knows how. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
On 23 Jun 2010, at 16:23, David Gerard wrote: Reliance on Google for what is really an essential function for those who aren't native English speakers is problematic because it's (a) third-party (b) closed. Same reason we don't use reCaptcha. I always think than not using reCaptcha is a shame, as it's a nice way to get people to proofread text in a reasonably efficient way. It would be really nice if someone could create something similar that proofreads OCR'd text from Wikisource... hint, hint. Mike ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
On 23 Jun 2010, at 16:23, David Gerard wrote: Reliance on Google for what is really an essential function for those who aren't native English speakers is problematic because it's (a) third-party (b) closed. Same reason we don't use reCaptcha. On the other hand, do we have to really _rely_ on reCaptcha? If their servers aren't working, use the ordinary captcha. Proofread books and still not rely on any external servers. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
--- El mié 23-jun-10, Michael Peel em...@mikepeel.net escribió: I always think than not using reCaptcha is a shame, as it's a nice way to get people to proofread text in a reasonably efficient way. It would be really nice if someone could create something similar that proofreads OCR'd text from Wikisource... hint, hint. And how do you decide that what was entered is wrong or right? Better take a look at Project Gutemberg's Distributed Proofreaders[1]. Cheers, MarianoC.- [1] http://pgdp.net ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
[Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
News from the front. A very bad and unfair unbalance of power was established in favor of English on Wikimedia Commons in 2005-2006, requiring people from the world to work for the benefit of the English language community. In that ocean of unfairness, there was a small island where you could find comfort and grace : biological taxa: the names of animals and plants. For centuries the scientific community had been used to using latin, creating a space where scientists from the world are nearer to being equals, everybody needing to leave her/his native tongue and use a foreign language. Wikimedia Commons had decided to name categories accordingly. I have discovered a few days ago that someone, probably in good faith and unaware of this language policy, created [[:Category:Animals by common named groups]] which is a container for English-named biological taxa, at the end of 2008. Now I find people pushing for this container and English named wild animal species. So the front line is broken. More reading at : http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Category:Wolves http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projet:Biologie/Le_caf%C3%A9_des_biologistes#Cat.C3.A9gories_en_latin_en_danger_sur_Commons ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
teofilow...@gmail.com wrote: I have discovered a few days ago that someone, probably in good faith and unaware of this language policy, created [[:Category:Animals by common named groups]] which is a container for English-named biological taxa, at the end of 2008. There is a major problem with latin names in a number of taxa. It seems that if tehre are 5 consecutive wet days in Summer a couple of researchers put their heads together and concoct new names, move things about, split, or combine species. As such whilst the latin names are useful as a link between languages they are not stable enough for the lay person to keep up with. That is why a number of the most useful sites on the web provide xrefs for common names which is where I'll go if I wanted to know the common name of a moth in German, French or Italian: http://www.lepidoptera.pl/show.php?ID=539country=PL I can't be arsed to argue it because there are alternate resources (at least at the species level), but frankly both the common and latin names should be given in all the languages that have a common name for a particular species. Also for the genus, tribe, and family where appropriate. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
Hoi, When you think that Commons is bad in supporting other languages, try to find pictures of a horse on the internet in other languages like Estonian, Nepalese ... It is not the same at all as when you are looking for images in English. Commons has the advantage that many Wikipedias refer to a category where pictures of for instance a horse can be found. There has been a demonstration project that demonstrated that it is possible to associate a concept in a translation dictionary with the names of categories in Commons. It was demonstrated that not only is it possible, it is also possible to change the text of the category and show a word in the language selected by the user. At OmegaWiki.org we have the ability to bring translations and Commons categories together.. We do that for quite some time now. Given that such support is thought to be difficult and expensive. What can be done to improve the support for both information and articles, is to have referral pages on Wikipedias. They are pages that do not have much more then a definition of the concept and refer to Wikipedias that do have an article on a subject. When a link is available to a Commons category, it is possible to refer to Commons as well. This does not require much investment and it will make the Wikipedias with few articles more useful. It will grow our traffic and when we learn what referral articles are in demand, we know what articles will make a difference when they have a genuine article. Thanks, GerardM On 22 June 2010 13:10, Teofilo teofilow...@gmail.com wrote: News from the front. A very bad and unfair unbalance of power was established in favor of English on Wikimedia Commons in 2005-2006, requiring people from the world to work for the benefit of the English language community. In that ocean of unfairness, there was a small island where you could find comfort and grace : biological taxa: the names of animals and plants. For centuries the scientific community had been used to using latin, creating a space where scientists from the world are nearer to being equals, everybody needing to leave her/his native tongue and use a foreign language. Wikimedia Commons had decided to name categories accordingly. I have discovered a few days ago that someone, probably in good faith and unaware of this language policy, created [[:Category:Animals by common named groups]] which is a container for English-named biological taxa, at the end of 2008. Now I find people pushing for this container and English named wild animal species. So the front line is broken. More reading at : http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Category:Wolves http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projet:Biologie/Le_caf%C3%A9_des_biologistes#Cat.C3.A9gories_en_latin_en_danger_sur_Commons ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
On 22 June 2010 14:06, wiki-l...@phizz.demon.co.uk wrote: There is a major problem with latin names in a number of taxa. It seems that if tehre are 5 consecutive wet days in Summer a couple of researchers put their heads together and concoct new names, move things about, split, or combine species. And the actual problem here is that species as biology now understands it is more than a little fluid, which is why researchers look forward to those five consecutive wet days in summer, to sort out the mess ... the problem you describe is how to make rigid descriptions of something at the fluid level. - d. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 22 June 2010 14:06, wiki-l...@phizz.demon.co.uk wrote: There is a major problem with latin names in a number of taxa. It seems that if tehre are 5 consecutive wet days in Summer a couple of researchers put their heads together and concoct new names, move things about, split, or combine species. And the actual problem here is that species as biology now understands it is more than a little fluid, which is why researchers look forward to those five consecutive wet days in summer, to sort out the mess ... the problem you describe is how to make rigid descriptions of something at the fluid level. Of course, but then some national organisations adopt the new classifications, and other do not, or are tardy in their adoption. Meanwhile someone is using an identification key or guidebook from say 1973, or knows the species from its previous latin name. The common name in any language has more stability as far as the lay person is concerned. the lay person shouldn't have to first find the latin name of an organism when looking it up: http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sp%C3%A9cial%3ARecherchesearch=Phal%C3%A8ne+de+l%27ans%C3%A9rine ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
On 22 June 2010 15:20, wiki-l...@phizz.demon.co.uk wrote: The common name in any language has more stability as far as the lay person is concerned. the lay person shouldn't have to first find the latin name of an organism when looking it up: http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sp%C3%A9cial%3ARecherchesearch=Phal%C3%A8ne+de+l%27ans%C3%A9rine Definitely. Category redirects would help here. - d. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
On 22 June 2010 15:45, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 22 June 2010 15:20, wiki-l...@phizz.demon.co.uk wrote: The common name in any language has more stability as far as the lay person is concerned. the lay person shouldn't have to first find the latin name of an organism when looking it up: http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sp%C3%A9cial%3ARecherchesearch=Phal%C3%A8ne+de+l%27ans%C3%A9rine Definitely. Category redirects would help here. I think redirects is the obvious solution. If you can't agree on what a category should be called, choose one of the options at random and set up redirects for the rest. It really doesn't matter which name the category is actually at, as long as users can find the images they want by whatever reasonable name they search by. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
I'd think he category can be renamed as common names (English) and similar ones be made for the other languages. It'd not jut s matter of redirection--there are many instances where some languages do, and some do not, have a common name. I think there are also cases where in one language a common names refers to a group of species, and in another to an overlapping but not identical group of species. In English at least, even academic journals aimed at non-taxonomists (e.g. PNAS, for an Open Access example) almost always use common names in the title and give the formal latin equivalent somewhere later in the paper. On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 12:10 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote: On 22 June 2010 15:45, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 22 June 2010 15:20, wiki-l...@phizz.demon.co.uk wrote: The common name in any language has more stability as far as the lay person is concerned. the lay person shouldn't have to first find the latin name of an organism when looking it up: http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sp%C3%A9cial%3ARecherchesearch=Phal%C3%A8ne+de+l%27ans%C3%A9rine Definitely. Category redirects would help here. I think redirects is the obvious solution. If you can't agree on what a category should be called, choose one of the options at random and set up redirects for the rest. It really doesn't matter which name the category is actually at, as long as users can find the images they want by whatever reasonable name they search by. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l -- David Goodman, Ph.D, M.L.S. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 9:21 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.comwrote: When you think that Commons is bad in supporting other languages, try to find pictures of a horse on the internet in other languages like Estonian, Nepalese ... It is not the same at all as when you are looking for images in English. Don't most Internet users know enough English to be able to search for pictures of a horse in English? (According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Internet_usage), yes... Most Internet users speak the English language as a native or secondary language.) ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
On 22 June 2010 17:32, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 9:21 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.comwrote: When you think that Commons is bad in supporting other languages, try to find pictures of a horse on the internet in other languages like Estonian, Nepalese ... It is not the same at all as when you are looking for images in English. Don't most Internet users know enough English to be able to search for pictures of a horse in English? (According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Internet_usage), yes... Most Internet users speak the English language as a native or secondary language.) In practice pulling up the wikipedia article on horse in your language will cover most cases. There is a fairly good argument to be made that wikipedia is common's best search engine. -- geni ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 6:32 PM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 9:21 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.comwrote: When you think that Commons is bad in supporting other languages, try to find pictures of a horse on the internet in other languages like Estonian, Nepalese ... It is not the same at all as when you are looking for images in English. Don't most Internet users know enough English to be able to search for pictures of a horse in English? (According to Wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Internet_usage), yes... Most Internet users speak the English language as a native or secondary language.) If I read the data in the article correctly, most means 35%. If we consider that current English native speakers mostly already have internet and those without internet are likelier than not to be non-English speakers I would be careful to advocate the unilateral use of English. Best regards, Bence ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 6:52 PM, Bence Damokos bdamo...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 7:42 PM, geni geni...@gmail.com wrote: In practice pulling up the wikipedia article on horse in your language will cover most cases. There is a fairly good argument to be made that wikipedia is common's best search engine. I would consider this state as a poor reflection on Commons' accessibility. Especially as Google image search (imho, the likeliest avenue of searching for images) gives 130 000 pictures of horses on Commons if searched in English, zero if searched in Estonian (hobu), and while it gives 160 000 results for a Hungarian search (ló) on the first page only one of it is an image that resembles a horse. Here's a thought: Enter hobu into translate.google.com, leave source language on automatic and target on English, and it will happily translate it into horse. Could we offer a translation link in search? As in, translate my query into English and try again? I'm sure we can come to an arrangement with Google (or someone else). Magnus ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 8:07 PM, Magnus Manske magnusman...@googlemail.comwrote: I would consider this state as a poor reflection on Commons' accessibility. Especially as Google image search (imho, the likeliest avenue of searching for images) gives 130 000 pictures of horses on Commons if searched in English, zero if searched in Estonian (hobu), and while it gives 160 000 results for a Hungarian search (ló) on the first page only one of it is an image that resembles a horse. Here's a thought: Enter hobu into translate.google.com, leave source language on automatic and target on English, and it will happily translate it into horse. Could we offer a translation link in search? As in, translate my query into English and try again? I'm sure we can come to an arrangement with Google (or someone else). Sorry if I misunderstand your suggestion. I'm sure power users can find any number of ways to do this (I think Google already offers a similar service somewhere hidden away) though they probably speak English as well, to reach those who do not speak English or aren't power users it has to be super obvious, I'm afraid. Google will probably reach that point sometime, but while they usually support a couple of dozen languages, we do so with a couple of hundred. I would be happy to see though some translation magic applied to Commons' category system the way templates now autotranslate - given the fact that we have a huge translation community and that interwiki links and links from Wikipedia's to Commons can be used to guess the meanings (which than could be confirmed by a human in some addictive game). I am not sure if Google would take the hint of the localized category names in their image search but it would be a start. (Having an easy, special interface -- that cuts away all the wikicode confusion leaving just the image and the existing translations and a next button, adds some AJAXy background magic,maybe suggestions through the Google Translate API - to translate image descriptions might also help drive the localisation of the image descriptions. Probably there are some userscripts that do this but they could be turned on by default or at least made more prominent.) Best regards, Bence ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
I know a horse, but yesterday it took for me five minutes to remember sparrows were the bird's name I would have liked to mention. . It helps to make this discussion helpful to some extent that native English speakers remind it is sometimes not so easy as you the native expect foreign learners. It's no sarcasm at all. Really. On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 6:32 PM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 9:21 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.comwrote: When you think that Commons is bad in supporting other languages, try to find pictures of a horse on the internet in other languages like Estonian, Nepalese ... It is not the same at all as when you are looking for images in English. Don't most Internet users know enough English to be able to search for pictures of a horse in English? (According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Internet_usage), yes... Most Internet users speak the English language as a native or secondary language.) ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l -- KIZU Naoko http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese) Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 1:47 PM, Bence Damokos bdamo...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 6:32 PM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: Don't most Internet users know enough English to be able to search for pictures of a horse in English? (According to Wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Internet_usage), yes... Most Internet users speak the English language as a native or secondary language.) If I read the data in the article correctly, most means 35%. Since most means more than 50%, I don't think you read it correctly. The 35% figure seems to be only native English speakers. If we consider that current English native speakers mostly already have internet and those without internet are likelier than not to be non-English speakers I would be careful to advocate the unilateral use of English. As would I, though I don't think you mean what you said. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
In addition, I have a feeling that article overstates the English abilities of the average non-native internet user. Yes, lots of people have a very (very!) basic command of English, but that is not the same as functional bilingualism. A user may happen to know the name for a horse, but what are the chances a casual user from Peru knows the name for an anteater, a giraffe or a jellyfish? On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 10:58 AM, Aphaia aph...@gmail.com wrote: I know a horse, but yesterday it took for me five minutes to remember sparrows were the bird's name I would have liked to mention. . It helps to make this discussion helpful to some extent that native English speakers remind it is sometimes not so easy as you the native expect foreign learners. It's no sarcasm at all. Really. On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 6:32 PM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 9:21 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.comwrote: When you think that Commons is bad in supporting other languages, try to find pictures of a horse on the internet in other languages like Estonian, Nepalese ... It is not the same at all as when you are looking for images in English. Don't most Internet users know enough English to be able to search for pictures of a horse in English? (According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Internet_usage), yes... Most Internet users speak the English language as a native or secondary language.) ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l -- KIZU Naoko http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese) Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 9:33 PM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 1:47 PM, Bence Damokos bdamo...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 6:32 PM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: Don't most Internet users know enough English to be able to search for pictures of a horse in English? (According to Wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Internet_usage), yes... Most Internet users speak the English language as a native or secondary language.) If I read the data in the article correctly, most means 35%. Since most means more than 50%, I don't think you read it correctly. The 35% figure seems to be only native English speakers. According to the Mettiam-Webster dictionary, 'majority' is only one of the meanings of 'most' (the primary being 'greatest in quantity, extent or degree'); if you look at the second table which seems to account for non-native speaker internet users as well, English is still gets about 30% share of total users. Although,the linked Wikipedia article could use some improvement... Best regards, Bence ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
Mark Williamson wrote: In addition, I have a feeling that article overstates the English abilities of the average non-native internet user. Yes, lots of people have a very (very!) basic command of English, but that is not the same as functional bilingualism. A user may happen to know the name for a horse, but what are the chances a casual user from Peru knows the name for an anteater, a giraffe or a jellyfish? There is a greater chance that the average Peruvian will know the English than the Latin. They'll probably know the local common name so one should ensure that they can at least find a picture of the critter by that name. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
If we consider that current English native speakers mostly already have internet and those without internet are likelier than not to be non-English speakers I would be careful to advocate the unilateral use of English. As would I, though I don't think you mean what you said. Why not? To me, it means that we're widening the digital divide by making it so that people who don't have the internet would have little use for it anyways if it's all written in a language they don't understand. m. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
Since I'm a fairly active programmer, I have some code sitting around. If I can get some support on commons with regards to templates (something that gives me nightmares) I could probably get a translation matrix program up and running within 24-48 hours. I would just need to figure out a good method for tracking what needs translated, what has been machine translated and needs review, and what has already been translated. John On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 5:26 PM, Mark Williamson node...@gmail.com wrote: If we consider that current English native speakers mostly already have internet and those without internet are likelier than not to be non-English speakers I would be careful to advocate the unilateral use of English. As would I, though I don't think you mean what you said. Why not? To me, it means that we're widening the digital divide by making it so that people who don't have the internet would have little use for it anyways if it's all written in a language they don't understand. m. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
the basic translation matrix is in place, here is how you say horse in as many languages as you can: http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:%CE%94/Sandboxoldid=40748125 John On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 7:56 PM, John Doe phoenixoverr...@gmail.com wrote: Since I'm a fairly active programmer, I have some code sitting around. If I can get some support on commons with regards to templates (something that gives me nightmares) I could probably get a translation matrix program up and running within 24-48 hours. I would just need to figure out a good method for tracking what needs translated, what has been machine translated and needs review, and what has already been translated. John On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 5:26 PM, Mark Williamson node...@gmail.comwrote: If we consider that current English native speakers mostly already have internet and those without internet are likelier than not to be non-English speakers I would be careful to advocate the unilateral use of English. As would I, though I don't think you mean what you said. Why not? To me, it means that we're widening the digital divide by making it so that people who don't have the internet would have little use for it anyways if it's all written in a language they don't understand. m. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
Very nice. I'd like to see such translation tools used to enhance the tags used to identify an image, so that all internet searches can find images by those tags. SJ On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 11:51 PM, John Doe phoenixoverr...@gmail.com wrote: the basic translation matrix is in place, here is how you say horse in as many languages as you can: http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:%CE%94/Sandboxoldid=40748125 John On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 7:56 PM, John Doe phoenixoverr...@gmail.com wrote: Since I'm a fairly active programmer, I have some code sitting around. If I can get some support on commons with regards to templates (something that gives me nightmares) I could probably get a translation matrix program up and running within 24-48 hours. I would just need to figure out a good method for tracking what needs translated, what has been machine translated and needs review, and what has already been translated. John On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 5:26 PM, Mark Williamson node...@gmail.comwrote: If we consider that current English native speakers mostly already have internet and those without internet are likelier than not to be non-English speakers I would be careful to advocate the unilateral use of English. As would I, though I don't think you mean what you said. Why not? To me, it means that we're widening the digital divide by making it so that people who don't have the internet would have little use for it anyways if it's all written in a language they don't understand. m. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l -- Samuel Klein identi.ca:sj w:user:sj ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Oh, this function is very interesting. If it were coupled with a function to get synonyms and metonyms (ie, equidae, mount) as a proposal to enlarge or explore a concept, then a semantic map would be created to navigate Commons in all languages. Maybe context-related or frequently-associated keywords would be useful too. On 23/06/2010 05:51, John Doe wrote: the basic translation matrix is in place, here is how you say horse in as many languages as you can: http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:%CE%94/Sandboxoldid=40748125 John On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 7:56 PM, John Doe phoenixoverr...@gmail.com wrote: Since I'm a fairly active programmer, I have some code sitting around. If I can get some support on commons with regards to templates (something that gives me nightmares) I could probably get a translation matrix program up and running within 24-48 hours. I would just need to figure out a good method for tracking what needs translated, what has been machine translated and needs review, and what has already been translated. John On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 5:26 PM, Mark Williamson node...@gmail.comwrote: If we consider that current English native speakers mostly already have internet and those without internet are likelier than not to be non-English speakers I would be careful to advocate the unilateral use of English. As would I, though I don't think you mean what you said. Why not? To me, it means that we're widening the digital divide by making it so that people who don't have the internet would have little use for it anyways if it's all written in a language they don't understand. m. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJMIZktAAoJEHCAuDvx9Z6LvWgIAIQCIz32wbGENNRRezW3IkpH X2JCgvgEcAWOK8tOxCtZ2k/3pjFXE/bpIMl6suqhUj76yVx0g6zrqIICfN/+A1Q4 7mzlPiKKaMWTrZNCZKSdk/VF5nrjQy0guc85EiEqN/CUtRxXTwnM1huI9IpHb3b8 E96w62KhXjy1xNCARjN9xJf0p84ntMNctQOs8AxrloL5a29HQzKJsGSCVAgwbpfJ TU1HSfPcHMAG/OSUfx8Cq0J0lAVQTlIPsX3RSb461ll19QvgZ0giK0jCGvul5KDy 2g66tQZ4rVxVpVvwgz2CtcdZzy3/sX0//Uiq8CMxuTsMa2+vxIpZuBZsSwGFQX0= =ihfP -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] English language dominationism is striking again
On 06/22/2010 08:07 PM, Magnus Manske wrote: I would consider this state as a poor reflection on Commons' accessibility. Especially as Google image search (imho, the likeliest avenue of searching for images) gives 130 000 pictures of horses on Commons if searched in English, zero if searched in Estonian (hobu), and while it gives 160 000 results for a Hungarian search (ló) on the first page only one of it is an image that resembles a horse. Here's a thought: Enter hobu into translate.google.com, leave source language on automatic and target on English, and it will happily translate it into horse. Could we offer a translation link in search? As in, translate my query into English and try again? I'm sure we can come to an arrangement with Google (or someone else). I already made something similar: http://toolserver.org/~nikola/mis.php ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
