Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 3:37 AM, Murray Cumming murr...@murrayc.com wrote: On Fri, 2010-06-25 at 21:22 -0600, Stormy Peters wrote: If someone in your talk is offended, please try to avoid a conversation about whether or not they should be offended. Remember our community is very diverse and while we all share a common mission to provide a free GNOME desktop to the world, we do not always share religions, politics and other views. Focus on the subject of your talk and stick to the issues being discussed without making them personal. As the speaker, you may have to remind the audience of this. While it's hard, do your best to do it in a neutral, non argumentative way. Suggest that topics not relevant to GNOME (raised by you or others in the audience) be moved to a more appropriate non-GNOME forum. If you need help, please contact the GNOME board or GNOME Foundation member. But don't worry! These problems do not happen very often - we are just trying to help you out if they do. Most audiences are very friendly and welcoming of topics about GNOME. Please go out and speak about GNOME and enjoy! The last paragraph, which I first suggested, was initially very short. I think it was effective without appearing too important. It's main aim was to prevent pointless distracting discussion. That's still possible if we don't turn the paragraph itself into an essay. It's useless to expand the text so much, attempting to explain the explanation, with extra explanation, just repeating the core text with slightly different waffling text. The document should be simple and meaningful, pointing out simple common sense. Please don't ruin it. I'm willing to make it shorter if the sentiment is correct. We could also have a very short speaker guidelines that doesn't include either the first paragraph nor this replacement text. It could be accompanied by more verbose explanations with pointers to other information like the GNOME presentation template, other GNOME presentations, help on improving your speaking skills, etc. Stormy ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On Fri, 2010-06-25 at 21:22 -0600, Stormy Peters wrote: On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 5:25 PM, Joanmarie Diggs joanmarie.di...@gmail.com wrote: As a matter of fact, personally I am not jazzed by the entire ending: Please keep in mind that the GNOME Foundation is not the right forum to debate whether someone should feel offended or not; you should simply avoid offending people even if you do not share their views. These guidelines do not constitute censorship since you have many other forums and opportunities to say whatever you wish. It is neither positive nor welcoming to would-be speakers -- and thus contrasts rather starkly with bullet point 1 under Guidelines. I agree. And it is obviously a reaction and implies that we have problems. I also agree with Lefty that it's there for a reason. Perhaps we could replace the above text with something like this: If someone in your talk is offended, please try to avoid a conversation about whether or not they should be offended. Remember our community is very diverse and while we all share a common mission to provide a free GNOME desktop to the world, we do not always share religions, politics and other views. Focus on the subject of your talk and stick to the issues being discussed without making them personal. As the speaker, you may have to remind the audience of this. While it's hard, do your best to do it in a neutral, non argumentative way. Suggest that topics not relevant to GNOME (raised by you or others in the audience) be moved to a more appropriate non-GNOME forum. If you need help, please contact the GNOME board or GNOME Foundation member. But don't worry! These problems do not happen very often - we are just trying to help you out if they do. Most audiences are very friendly and welcoming of topics about GNOME. Please go out and speak about GNOME and enjoy! The last paragraph, which I first suggested, was initially very short. I think it was effective without appearing too important. It's main aim was to prevent pointless distracting discussion. That's still possible if we don't turn the paragraph itself into an essay. It's useless to expand the text so much, attempting to explain the explanation, with extra explanation, just repeating the core text with slightly different waffling text. The document should be simple and meaningful, pointing out simple common sense. Please don't ruin it. Perhaps we could link to a list of skills on how to deal with difficult questions as a speaker? I don't know of a page like that, but I've been taught a number of ways over the years, so I could put one together. Again, I think that's making too much of it. I don't believe we want our speakers to read a huge manual on how to behave. We do want to remind them to be reasonable, and we want attendees to know that we have basic standards. -- murr...@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
Driving half of the human race out of that community though behaviour they find obnoxious and threatening That would be a very bad thing, and I am not doing that. My Saint IGNUcius routine is not driving anyone out of the free software movement. Negative reactions have been rare, and I made it gender-neutral a year ago to make extra sure. So please, away with the exaggerations. (By the way, supposed quotes that have been posted in this thread are distortions; they don't match what I said.) There is also no reason to discuss it here, because in GNOME events I will follow the GNOME speaker guidelines. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On Fri, 2010-06-25 at 11:21 +0200, Patryk Zawadzki wrote: It would be better if GNOME defined a precise set of rules (ie. don't mention religion). And you might know - I rather liked Lefty's random talk on his buddhist pilgrimage at the last GUADEC, but Aaron's bacon-fest horribly offended my sensibilities [ or something ], and as for Miguel's historic Unix Sucks talk, it's hard to know where to begin un-twisting myself ;-) [or perhaps not]. As for the hazy areas, common sense is a better judge than a set of written rules. If someone does something grossly inappropriate just don't invite them to further events. Quite; this is ultimately the best sanction; I assume it has been silently applied against the most egregious offenders, as it always has been. I'm sure lots of people worked very hard on trying to come up with a sane sounding policy ( and it does seem fairly mild - the punishment AFAIR being a very hard stare ;-). But it does seem a little silly to need a policy at all. Ultimately, I guess we need to accept and live with the fact that ~everyone is unbalanced in some way, and has some or other noxiously offensive opinion, and perhaps provide some interactive booing hissing / sharp questions from the audience at times ;-) Regards, Michael. -- michael.me...@novell.com , Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 12:39 AM, Lefty (石鏡 ) le...@shugendo.org wrote: On 6/25/10 8:30 AM, Patryk Zawadzki pat...@pld-linux.org wrote: I bet at least one person in the audience is offended when they see the presenter using a Mac. Or sporting a Windows t-shirt. Or using an iPod. Or mentioning that Apple did something better than GNOME. Security, seize and escort the speaker out of the building. :) By the way: I would certainly recommend that anyone who's offended by a presenter using a Mac, wearing a Windows t-shirt, or both at the same time, to take their concerns directly and immediately to the Board of Directors. I would suggest that the Board of Directors tell them to Get a grip. Is it _that_ difficult to distinguish between the sort of offense that someone like Celeste Lyn Paul, a KDE board member, expressed when she wrote ( http://identi.ca/notice/6304540)... Do men really think RMSs virgin joke at #gcds was not sexist? Very disappointed in FLOSS comm chatter about this. I'd say it was more stupid than sexist. He planned it to be a religious joke but ended up with a pile of crap. ...on the one hand, and the offense that someone who feels a speaker is not being pure enough, or something, by using a non-free-software- movement-approved piece of hardware, or wearing a t-shirt bearing the logo of a non-free-software-movement-approved company, on the other? Do you see no distinction between the two, Patryk? Are you trying to start a flame war, or are you just bored? Stop trying to convince me that I'm defending bad behavior as I'm not. I said the rules were too vague to be considered a policy. A person hating Mono or C# is just as covered as a person who is a target of racist comments. That's why the rules are bad. I'd add that if GNOME as a community needs a written don't be a total jerk policy, we should probably consider going to circus instead of the conferences ;) (rest of quotes removed to put out the flames) -- Patryk Zawadzki ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
The GNOME speaker guidelines were at least partly a reaction to my Saint IGNUcius comedy routine. So if I don't have a beef with these guidelines, why should anyone else? I am proud of my Saint IGNUcius routine. Thousands of people have laughed at it. The routine makes fun of people, especially Emacs users, but does not insult or attack anyone, not even Emacs users. It doesn't advocate doing anything to people by force -- not even teaching them Emacs (which is how one loses Emacs virginity). I don't think there's anything bad about it. But it does refer to sex and religion. If GNOME would rather not have such humor in its events, I can go along with that. If the community wants these guidelines, I support them. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On 6/26/10 7:09 AM, Richard Stallman r...@gnu.org wrote: The GNOME speaker guidelines were at least partly a reaction to my Saint IGNUcius comedy routine. So if I don't have a beef with these guidelines, why should anyone else? Good question. It seems some folks are intent on defending you, whether you're looking for defense or not. I've had a bunch of 'em email my managers, our clients, and uninvolved members of my family, over my disagreements on this issue. You may recall that I wrote you privately about this about three months ago, and you saw no problem with it at the time, but perhaps you've reconsidered that. Asking them to knock it off seems reasonable to me, certainly. I am proud of my Saint IGNUcius routine. I am, in all honesty, sorry to hear that. I feel that's a shame, myself. Thousands of people have laughed at it. Keen student of world history that you are, you're surely aware that tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, laughed (and cheered and applauded) at each and every beheading conducted during the Reign of Terror. I guess by this metric, if a speaker wants to throw in a guillotining or two, well, why not? As long as people laugh, right? The routine makes fun of people, especially Emacs users, but does not insult or attack anyone, not even Emacs users. As I've shown, opinions varied. Celeste Lyn Paul felt insulted. Chani Armitage felt more at risk of being attacked. I felt offended. Thanks for making it clear that our various feelings in this matter were in fact groundless, and should not be considered as being material to, or indicative of, anything. See, from where I was sitting, the routine _seemed_ to be making fun of women in particular as some sort of technical ignorami, helplessly waiting around for some big, strong _male_ hacker to explain to them the wonders of EMACS. Surely, virginity is a small, even insignificant, thing to trade for some awesome knowledge and power. It's easy to see why such a message would achieve a level of popularity with your typical FLOSS community conference audience. By the same token, I personally _believed_ (mistakenly, apparently) that I could well imagine why a woman in attendance, outnumbered by men at perhaps a ratio of 40-to-1, might be made just a _wee_ bit uncomfortable by that notion. Evidently, however, that's a lot harder for yourself, and others, to envisage, thus conclusively demonstrating my (and Celeste's, and Chani's, and Matt's, and Matthew's, and Andre's, and Sandy's, and...) error in this matter. It doesn't advocate doing anything to people by force -- not even teaching them Emacs (which is how one loses Emacs virginity). Well, see? That's why I keep asking for a handout. I've never heard of relieving a woman's virginity through teaching her how to use a 40-year-old text editor. I'm also unclear how a unilateral Holy Duty to impose something, anything, on some nonconsenting other doesn't amount to doing something by force. As I've said, I was taught to always say, May I? first. There was no mention of anything like that at GCDS. Just your Holy Duty. I don't think there's anything bad about it. I'd intuited that, yes. Again, a shame, in my view. But it does refer to sex and religion. Well, at least we're on the same page there. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
Lefty, 2010/6/26 Lefty (石鏡 ) le...@shugendo.org: Patryk seems to want to continue to pursue this discussion. I hadn't been planning to, after Sriram's message, but since there's an obvious interest... This is not a Lefty vs Patryk debate nor a Lefty vs Richard debate. Please stick to discussing the issues and not attacking people. Your emails and your tone discourage other people from participating in these discussions. Please help us make the Foundation list a welcoming place to discuss GNOME issues. Thanks in advance for your help. Best, Stormy ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
minorities have not had a large role in free software community. So that joke might have worked with a lot of people back then but not so much now. Since you're a celebrity people are willing to probably overlook such things that might normally offend them. Of course the opposite is true as well, because you're a celebrity people might be even more offended depending on how sensitive they feel your role is. Worse unfortunately, because he is a celebrity people will copy what he does and think its 'cool'. Which when it comes to sexist jokes is not what the free software community needs. Richard, remember the freedom to modify code requires the knowledge to do it - which is something you mostly learn and share within that community by being part of it. Driving half of the human race out of that community though behaviour they find obnoxious and threatening isn't just a matter of poor taste, its a direct attack on the very freedoms the FSF and GPL are meant to be about. It's not a question of what the law permits but what is ethically right. Is it ethically right for the leader of the free software movement to drive people away from free software ? We want to replace the proprietary software world with free software for all, not for mostly male, thick skinned folks because everyone else feels unwelcome and threatened - whether for cultural or other reasons. Alan ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 6:42 PM, Stone Mirror le...@shugendo.org wrote: Again, very well said, and I couldn't agree more. Thank you, Alan. It honestly baffles me that some people seem to have such difficulty grasping what seems so transparently obvious to me. *Stop* making it personal. Stop thanking individuals. Stop insulting others' intelligence. (Saying you agree is one thing. Thanking them like they did you a favor is another.) Stormy ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
Again, very well said, and I couldn't agree more. Thank you, Alan. It honestly baffles me that some people seem to have such difficulty grasping what seems so transparently obvious to me. Maybe it's the training that every single Apple employee was required to take. They got this stuff twenty years ago. _Thirty_ percent of the engineering team I managed at Apple were women. __ Sent from my Steve-Phone On Jun 26, 2010, at 5:19 PM, Alan Cox a...@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk wrote: minorities have not had a large role in free software community. So that joke might have worked with a lot of people back then but not so much now. Since you're a celebrity people are willing to probably overlook such things that might normally offend them. Of course the opposite is true as well, because you're a celebrity people might be even more offended depending on how sensitive they feel your role is. Worse unfortunately, because he is a celebrity people will copy what he does and think its 'cool'. Which when it comes to sexist jokes is not what the free software community needs. Richard, remember the freedom to modify code requires the knowledge to do it - which is something you mostly learn and share within that community by being part of it. Driving half of the human race out of that community though behaviour they find obnoxious and threatening isn't just a matter of poor taste, its a direct attack on the very freedoms the FSF and GPL are meant to be about. It's not a question of what the law permits but what is ethically right. Is it ethically right for the leader of the free software movement to drive people away from free software ? We want to replace the proprietary software world with free software for all, not for mostly male, thick skinned folks because everyone else feels unwelcome and threatened - whether for cultural or other reasons. Alan ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On 6/26/10 5:45 PM, Stormy Peters sto...@gnome.org wrote: On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 6:42 PM, Stone Mirror le...@shugendo.org wrote: Again, very well said, and I couldn't agree more. Thank you, Alan. It honestly baffles me that some people seem to have such difficulty grasping what seems so transparently obvious to me. *Stop* making it personal. Stop thanking individuals. Stop insulting others' intelligence. (Saying you agree is one thing. Thanking them like they did you a favor is another.) Stormy, at this point, I frankly haven't got the slightest idea what you're talking about. I didn't make _anything_ personal, other than my thanks to Alan. Please stop. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
Don't be obtuse. It is perfectly clear what Stormy is requesting from you. I am new to this community and I'm afraid I see more hostility from you than the people you're castigating for being unwelcoming. Please let's put this argument in the past and focus on how to make Gnome more attractive to more people in future. Jeremy Allison On Jun 26, 2010 6:03 PM, Lefty (石鏡 ) le...@shugendo.org wrote: On 6/26/10 5:45 PM, Stormy Peters sto...@gnome.org wrote: On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 6:42 PM, Stone Mirror le...@shugendo.org wrote: Again, very well said, and I couldn't agree more. Thank you, Alan. It honestly baffles me that some people seem to have such difficulty grasping what seems so transparently obvious to me. *Stop* making it personal. Stop thanking individuals. Stop insulting others' intelligence. (Saying you agree is one thing. Thanking them like they did you a favor is another.) Stormy, at this point, I frankly haven't got the slightest idea what you're talking about. I didn't make _anything_ personal, other than my thanks to Alan. Please stop. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
Hi, As a GUADEC Speaker this year I went through the Guidelines and I'm a little bit worried about this, because I reviewed my talk at last GUADEC (GNOME 1,2,3, with the amazing Xan) and I think it failed to comply all of those guidelines. At the end, the document says: Please keep in mind that the GNOME Foundation is not the right forum to debate whether someone should feel offended or not so I not going to debate it, but I would like to stand that with every single sentence I can say there are potential people all over the world that can feel offended, so I just cannot control or avoid it. I also don't think the ending is appropriate: These guidelines do not constitute censorship since you have many other forums and opportunities to say whatever you wish.. That is a pretty evil justification and probably Governments in Iran, Saudi Arabia or North Korean can use it. Salu2 If all printers were determined not to print anything till they were sure it would offend nobody, there would be very little printed. Benjamin Franklin (1730) On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 3:36 PM, Vincent Untz vu...@gnome.org wrote: The result is a document listing a set of guidelines to help speakers avoid offending the audience, in order to have the talks enjoyed by as many people as possible: http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct/SpeakerGuidelines We would like to encourage everybody who will deliver at a talk at a GNOME event, or who will represent GNOME with a GNOME talk at other events, to go read those guidelines! Many thanks to Matthew Garrett for his initial work on this, and to the community for the feedback sent after we've published a draft of this document. Thanks, Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 2:06 AM, Fernando Herrera fherr...@onirica.com wrote: I also don't think the ending is appropriate: These guidelines do not constitute censorship since you have many other forums and opportunities to say whatever you wish.. That is a pretty evil justification and probably Governments in Iran, Saudi Arabia or North Korean can use it. If all printers were determined not to print anything till they were sure it would offend nobody, there would be very little printed. I have had jobs where we were not allowed to print pornography at work. But I was still totally free to print pornography at home. (At least as far as the company was concerned.) The company defined what was appropriate within their forums. GNOME can decide what's appropriate to discuss in GNOME forums whether it's conferences or mailing lists. Topics that are off topic for GNOME (say politics not related to free software) can be discussed in other forums. I don't think that's censorship. Stormy ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
Hi, On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Stormy Peters sto...@gnome.org wrote: The company defined what was appropriate within their forums. GNOME can decide what's appropriate to discuss in GNOME forums whether it's conferences or mailing lists. Here with GNOME do you mean GNOME community or the GNOME Foundation? Topics that are off topic for GNOME (say politics not related to free software) can be discussed in other forums. I don't think that's censorship. Do you mean that the acceptance of the Speaker Guidelines for GNOME conferences is an off-topic issue for GNOME forums? Salu2 ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
It would be better if GNOME defined a precise set of rules (ie. don't mention religion). As for the hazy areas, common sense is a better That is hardly a precise rule. I think quite a few people would describe certain posters attitude to the letters G N and U as 'religion'. The social sciences don't have an effective definition for religion so I doubt Gnome does. judge than a set of written rules. If someone does something grossly inappropriate just don't invite them to further events. Policy is a poor man's substitute for common sense. -- David Woodhouse I think says it all Alan ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 11:32 AM, Alan Cox a...@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk wrote: Policy is a poor man's substitute for common sense. -- David Woodhouse I think says it all Yeah, I completely agree and Policy ~= Guidelines, so I would feel much comfortable just asking speakers for common sense and a disclaimer like The views expressed on these talks are those of speakers do not necessarily reflect the views of GNOME Foundation. Salu2 ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On 6/25/10 2:21 AM, Patryk Zawadzki pat...@pld-linux.org wrote: It would be better if GNOME defined a precise set of rules (ie. don't mention religion). As for the hazy areas, common sense is a better judge than a set of written rules. If someone does something grossly inappropriate just don't invite them to further events. The difficulty with precise sets of rules, is that anything that someone didn't manage to explicitly think up in advance is fair game as long as it doesn't _precisely_ run afoul of one of those rules. And when someone _does_ manage to find something which actually offends everyone in the audience, but which wasn't envisioned beforehand, there's no basis for complaint at all: it's not against the rules. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 3:48 PM, Lefty (石鏡 ) le...@shugendo.org wrote: On 6/25/10 2:21 AM, Patryk Zawadzki pat...@pld-linux.org wrote: It would be better if GNOME defined a precise set of rules (ie. don't mention religion). As for the hazy areas, common sense is a better judge than a set of written rules. If someone does something grossly inappropriate just don't invite them to further events. The difficulty with precise sets of rules, is that anything that someone didn't manage to explicitly think up in advance is fair game as long as it doesn't _precisely_ run afoul of one of those rules. And when someone _does_ manage to find something which actually offends everyone in the audience, but which wasn't envisioned beforehand, there's no basis for complaint at all: it's not against the rules. Did you miss the common sense part? If the rules are vague, everything can be proved to be against the rules. I believe the rules were defined to stop RMS from making jokes. If you don't like his sense of humor, don't invite him. You don't have to ban all kinds of jokes and sarcasm along the way. -- Patryk Zawadzki ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
Since you've brought it up, Patryk, my very first thought in looking at these guidelines was to marvel at the completeness with which Mr. Stallman's keynote at GCDS last year managed to run roughshod over every single one. There's nothing wrong with jokes or humor. When the supposed humor comes directly at the expense of a minority of the audience―a part, in fact, which is unreasonably small―it should be apparent that this is not the sort of humor we want to be seeing in a keynote address at our community's own technical conference. Humor is supposed to be funny; Mr. Stallman was not. A keynote should not single out a portion of the community for unwanted negative attention, particularly when that attention is of a sexual nature. Within the past two weeks, a male attendee sexually assaulted a couple of women at a Linux conference. Perhaps he believed that they were EMACS virgins and he was exercising his holy duty. __ Sent from my Steve-Phone On Jun 25, 2010, at 7:42 AM, Patryk Zawadzki pat...@pld-linux.org wrote: On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 3:48 PM, Lefty (石鏡 ) le...@shugendo.org wrote: On 6/25/10 2:21 AM, Patryk Zawadzki pat...@pld-linux.org wrote: It would be better if GNOME defined a precise set of rules (ie. don't mention religion). As for the hazy areas, common sense is a better judge than a set of written rules. If someone does something grossly inappropriate just don't invite them to further events. The difficulty with precise sets of rules, is that anything that someone didn't manage to explicitly think up in advance is fair game as long as it doesn't _precisely_ run afoul of one of those rules. And when someone _does_ manage to find something which actually offends everyone in the audience, but which wasn't envisioned beforehand, there's no basis for complaint at all: it's not against the rules. Did you miss the common sense part? If the rules are vague, everything can be proved to be against the rules. I believe the rules were defined to stop RMS from making jokes. If you don't like his sense of humor, don't invite him. You don't have to ban all kinds of jokes and sarcasm along the way. -- Patryk Zawadzki ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
2010/6/25 Stone Mirror le...@shugendo.org: Since you've brought it up, Patryk, my very first thought in looking at these guidelines was to marvel at the completeness with which Mr. Stallman's keynote at GCDS last year managed to run roughshod over every single one. There's nothing wrong with jokes or humor. When the supposed humor comes directly at the expense of a minority of the audience―a part, in fact, which is unreasonably small―it should be apparent that this is not the sort of humor we want to be seeing in a keynote address at our community's own technical conference. Humor is supposed to be funny; Mr. Stallman was not. A keynote should not single out a portion of the community for unwanted negative attention, particularly when that attention is of a sexual nature. I am not defending RMS. I am just stating that the anti-RMS rules are so vague that any statement can be bent to become a violation. I bet at least one person in the audience is offended when they see the presenter using a Mac. Or sporting a Windows t-shirt. Or using an iPod. Or mentioning that Apple did something better than GNOME. Security, seize and escort the speaker out of the building. :) Within the past two weeks, a male attendee sexually assaulted a couple of women at a Linux conference. Perhaps he believed that they were EMACS virgins and he was exercising his holy duty. That's completely irrelevant. Do we need to write a list of no bag stealing, no puppy strangling etc.? Sexual assaults are supposed to be dealt with using law enforcement, not speaker guidelines. -- Patryk Zawadzki ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
That's completely irrelevant. Do we need to write a list of no bag stealing, no puppy strangling etc.? Sexual assaults are supposed to be dealt with using law enforcement, not speaker guidelines. Assault is - but where for example would you draw the line given a speaker appearing in a swastika t-shirt and making jewish jokes (which in most of the world would merely be very offensive not a crime) and not being our problem That is the same question but put in blunter terms about an issue over which there is more consensus and awareness. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
Patryk: Did you miss the common sense part? If the rules are vague, everything can be proved to be against the rules. These rules are for the GNOME Foundation community and the GNOME Foundation community will decide when the rules apply and when they have been broken. I think the GNOME Foundation community is an intelligent, highly educated bunch, and I do not think we need to be so concerned that these guidelines will be used in an abusive or frivolous manner. If, over time, we find that our speaker guidelines are being used in a way that is hampering honest, free speech, then this is something we can discuss and address in the future. Our guidelines are likely to be a living document that will be modified as necessary to ensure that they are used and understood properly. The goal we are trying to achieve with having Speaker Guidelines is to try and help foster an environment where people are more sensitive, aware, and focused on productive discourse. I believe the rules were defined to stop RMS from making jokes. If you don't like his sense of humor, don't invite him. You don't have to ban all kinds of jokes and sarcasm along the way. I have a few things to say about this. 1) There is no benefit in making this issue personal. Over the past 2.5 years that I have been on the board, the board has been asked to help address a situation where someone has been offensive at least a half-dozen times. The Speaker Guidelines were created to help deal with this class of problems, not to deal with any particular person who may have been offensive at any particular time. Please lets avoid derailing this discussion by turning it into a discussion about a particular person or situation. 2) When situations do happen, the board is often criticized that we are slow or ineffective at addressing them. One reason these problems are difficult to address is that we do not have any clear ground rules. Considering how difficult it is to get our community to agree on even simple ground rules, I hope people in the GNOME Foundation community can appreciate the difficulty and frustration the board has trying to address problems when they arise. 3) There is no problem with anyone telling jokes in general. That said, there is always a risk when telling a joke that someone might be offended. So the burden is on the speaker to ensure that any joke is appropriate for the audience at a GNOME technical conference. Humor that is at the expense of a minority or which encourage discrimination is not appropriate for a GNOME technical conference regardless of who says them. But this does not mean that jokes are always bad, or that jokes by any particular speaker are always bad. Also, sometimes people say offensive things without really understanding that their words are offensive, or would be interpreted in that way. The GNOME Foundation is highly diverse and made up of people from around the world, and people from different cultures or backgrounds do not always share the same sensitivities. So, when situations happen, it is important to have ground rules to help educate our speakers so that they understand how to be more considerate and effective speakers in the future. Brian ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On 6/25/10 1:57 PM, Brian Cameron brian.came...@oracle.com wrote:
{a completely sensible response}
Thanks, Brian.
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Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On Fri, 2010-06-25 at 08:08 -0700, Stone Mirror wrote: Within the past two weeks, a male attendee sexually assaulted a couple of women at a Linux conference. Perhaps he believed that they were EMACS virgins and he was exercising his holy duty. And the Open Source heresy founding father, ESR, is a self-professed gun nut. Should we be mentioning ESR and Open Source movement every time the gun violence is in the news? - S ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On 6/25/10 3:06 PM, Sergey Panov si...@sipan.org wrote: Exactly! For instance, I am offended almost every time Lefty or Philip Van Hoof say something ... almost anything nowdays. - Perhaps you should find some other mailing list to read if you're finding this one that distressing. It's interesting that you'd drag a third party, who's had nothing to say on this, into the discussion. Dave Neary recently gave me a good definition of trolling: making inflammatory remarks without actually adding anything to the discussion. Thought I'd just toss that out there. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On 6/25/10 8:30 AM, Patryk Zawadzki pat...@pld-linux.org wrote: I bet at least one person in the audience is offended when they see the presenter using a Mac. Or sporting a Windows t-shirt. Or using an iPod. Or mentioning that Apple did something better than GNOME. Security, seize and escort the speaker out of the building. :) By the way: I would certainly recommend that anyone who's offended by a presenter using a Mac, wearing a Windows t-shirt, or both at the same time, to take their concerns directly and immediately to the Board of Directors. I would suggest that the Board of Directors tell them to Get a grip. Is it _that_ difficult to distinguish between the sort of offense that someone like Celeste Lyn Paul, a KDE board member, expressed when she wrote ( http://identi.ca/notice/6304540)... Do men really think RMSs virgin joke at #gcds was not sexist? Very disappointed in FLOSS comm chatter about this. ...on the one hand, and the offense that someone who feels a speaker is not being pure enough, or something, by using a non-free-software- movement-approved piece of hardware, or wearing a t-shirt bearing the logo of a non-free-software-movement-approved company, on the other? Do you see no distinction between the two, Patryk? (I am, admittedly, making the assumption that the reason your at least one person is taking offense is because the free software movement has a deep dislike, at the very least, for both Apple and Microsoft. Correct me if they're taking offense on color choices, style/industrial design or some other score.) As I recall, there was no shortage at all of MacBooks in the _audience_ at GCDS, and that's been pretty typical. There were plenty at FOSDEM as well. Do you think someone would be reasonable for your at least one person to take offense at the members of the community who happen to like Macs? What do you think he-or-she should do about this? ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On 6/25/10 3:39 PM, David Schlesinger le...@shugendo.org wrote: ( http://identi.ca/notice/6304540)... Do men really think RMSs virgin joke at #gcds was not sexist? Very disappointed in FLOSS comm chatter about this. By the way: Celeste wrote this while sitting in the auditorium at GCDS, listening to Stallman express his notion of what constitutes gentle humor. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
Lefty: If it isn't clear already, the Speaker Guidelines are not intended to be used in frivolous ways. If people think that this needs to be spelled out more clearly in the guidelines, then please propose improved text. I can't imagine that anybody would take a complaint about someone giving a talk and using a MacBook seriously, unless the situation were somehow extraordinary (e.g. if a speaker had a GNU/Linux Killer sticker on their MacBook, that might warrant some concern and discussion). There is no need to discuss Apple or Microsoft or any other specific company. If you have concerns about how the guidelines might be applied about topics concerning free source vs. open source vs. proprietary technologies, then let's please talk about this without naming specific companies. Brian On 06/25/10 05:39 PM, Lefty (石鏡 ) wrote: On 6/25/10 8:30 AM, Patryk Zawadzkipat...@pld-linux.org wrote: I bet at least one person in the audience is offended when they see the presenter using a Mac. Or sporting a Windows t-shirt. Or using an iPod. Or mentioning that Apple did something better than GNOME. Security, seize and escort the speaker out of the building. :) By the way: I would certainly recommend that anyone who's offended by a presenter using a Mac, wearing a Windows t-shirt, or both at the same time, to take their concerns directly and immediately to the Board of Directors. I would suggest that the Board of Directors tell them to Get a grip. Is it _that_ difficult to distinguish between the sort of offense that someone like Celeste Lyn Paul, a KDE board member, expressed when she wrote ( http://identi.ca/notice/6304540)... Do men really think RMSs virgin joke at #gcds was not sexist? Very disappointed in FLOSS comm chatter about this. ...on the one hand, and the offense that someone who feels a speaker is not being pure enough, or something, by using a non-free-software- movement-approved piece of hardware, or wearing a t-shirt bearing the logo of a non-free-software-movement-approved company, on the other? Do you see no distinction between the two, Patryk? (I am, admittedly, making the assumption that the reason your at least one person is taking offense is because the free software movement has a deep dislike, at the very least, for both Apple and Microsoft. Correct me if they're taking offense on color choices, style/industrial design or some other score.) As I recall, there was no shortage at all of MacBooks in the _audience_ at GCDS, and that's been pretty typical. There were plenty at FOSDEM as well. Do you think someone would be reasonable for your at least one person to take offense at the members of the community who happen to like Macs? What do you think he-or-she should do about this? ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On 6/25/10 3:50 PM, Brian Cameron brian.came...@oracle.com wrote: If it isn't clear already, the Speaker Guidelines are not intended to be used in frivolous ways. It's certainly seems clear enough to me. It appeared, though, to be unclear to Patryk. If people think that this needs to be spelled out more clearly in the guidelines, then please propose improved text. Actually, I'd suggest thinking some more first. I can't imagine that anybody would take a complaint about someone giving a talk and using a MacBook seriously, unless the situation were somehow extraordinary (e.g. if a speaker had a GNU/Linux Killer sticker on their MacBook, that might warrant some concern and discussion). I agree, and I can't really imagine such a situation, either, especially having seen how many MacBooks there actually are at GCDS and FOSDEM. However, Patryk says he knows one, if not more, people who are simply offended, apparently, by the mere _presence_ of MacBooks (and/or Microsoft t-shirts). I expect they must have bleeding ulcers by this point, so the issue has at least the potential of containing its own resolution, but... There is no need to discuss Apple or Microsoft or any other specific company. If you have concerns about how the guidelines might be applied about topics concerning free source vs. open source vs. proprietary technologies, then let's please talk about this without naming specific companies. I don't personally think we need to talk about it at all, any more than we needed to talk about it with regard to the Planet. If it wasn't clear, I believe that equating an offense at MacBooks with the offense that Celeste describes is...interesting, to say the least. I might even say that I found _that_ rather offensive if doing so weren't so self-referential. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On 6/25/10 4:15 PM, David Schlesinger le...@shugendo.org wrote: On 6/25/10 3:50 PM, Brian Cameron brian.came...@oracle.com wrote: I can't imagine that anybody would take a complaint about someone giving a talk and using a MacBook seriously, unless the situation were somehow extraordinary (e.g. if a speaker had a GNU/Linux Killer sticker on their MacBook, that might warrant some concern and discussion). I agree... I need to clarify: we are in agreement in both apparently finding a situation such as you and Patryk describe improbable. A sticker such as you describe would personally bother me no more than a Microsoft t-shirt would. People are entitled to their opinions on such matters, and I don't care to restrain their expression of those opinions, personally. Free speech and all that. I'd be much more concerned about a Looking for EMCS virgins! sticker, myself. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
Hey all. I agree with this: I also don't think the ending is appropriate: These guidelines do not constitute censorship since you have many other forums and opportunities to say whatever you wish. As a matter of fact, personally I am not jazzed by the entire ending: Please keep in mind that the GNOME Foundation is not the right forum to debate whether someone should feel offended or not; you should simply avoid offending people even if you do not share their views. These guidelines do not constitute censorship since you have many other forums and opportunities to say whatever you wish. It is neither positive nor welcoming to would-be speakers -- and thus contrasts rather starkly with bullet point 1 under Guidelines. It also feels like an attempt to preempt a response/reaction, which is perfectly understandable given the nature of the document. However, it is the very nature of the people in question to ignore such language. Were it me, I'd nix that paragraph. If the Board feels it must remain, I'd suggest that someone come up with something more positive and welcoming. Take care. --joanie ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On 6/25/10 4:25 PM, Joanmarie Diggs joanmarie.di...@gmail.com wrote: I agree with this: I also don't think the ending is appropriate: These guidelines do not constitute censorship since you have many other forums and opportunities to say whatever you wish. I pretty much agree with _you_. However, experience has shown that the very first thing some people who want to avoid staying within guidelines will do is cry censorship. It's incorrect, it's silly, it's inane, and for a variety of reasons, the chief of which are cited in that section: you can go _someplace else_ and say whatever you want, if you feel you must, and the guidelines won't allow it. (I shudder, somewhat, to think what that might amount to, looking at the guidelines again. The Beloved Prophet, GNUhammed? I _hope_ not.) I'd be happy to see it moved to an annotated version or comments or something, but I fear that without it, we'll be continually explaining to people that freedom of the press doesn't actually mean that _you're_ free to use _my_ press as you see fit. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 1:57 PM, Brian Cameron brian.came...@oracle.comwrote: I have a few things to say about this. Brian, These are good comments. I think that's good enough explanation on the guidelines coupled with the living document strategy. We are not going to get right the first time. I suggest we take the stance of no evil intended and just close this thread. Talking about improbable scenarios is (eg swastika) is taking things to an extreme to test the rules will just rat hole us, we can discuss all kinds of scenarios and no rule is going to work... I'm still trying to figure out all the procmail rules that would filter my mail properly. :-) Let's close it, there is nothing more to discuss. We'll adjust as we find situations that the guidelines doesn't help us. Thank you, Brian for your hard work on this. I and the rest of the community appreciate the thought and labo(u)r that went into it. Much appreciated. sri ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
Hey Stormy. Perhaps we could replace the above text with something like this: If someone in your talk is offended, please try to avoid a conversation about whether or not they should be offended. Remember our community is very diverse and while we all share a common mission to provide a free GNOME desktop to the world, we do not always share religions, politics and other views. Focus on the subject of your talk and stick to the issues being discussed without making them personal. As the speaker, you may have to remind the audience of this. While it's hard, do your best to do it in a neutral, non argumentative way. Suggest that topics not relevant to GNOME (raised by you or others in the audience) be moved to a more appropriate non-GNOME forum. If you need help, please contact the GNOME board or GNOME Foundation member. But don't worry! These problems do not happen very often - we are just trying to help you out if they do. Most audiences are very friendly and welcoming of topics about GNOME. Please go out and speak about GNOME and enjoy! +1 Thank you. --joanie ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
GNOME Speaker Guidelines
Hi, Several months ago, people raised the issues of some inappropriate comments made during various talks. The board worked on resolving those issues, and then proposed the creation of guidelines to have better ways to limit such inappropriate comments, as well as to answer similar issues that would be raised in the future. The result is a document listing a set of guidelines to help speakers avoid offending the audience, in order to have the talks enjoyed by as many people as possible: http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct/SpeakerGuidelines We would like to encourage everybody who will deliver at a talk at a GNOME event, or who will represent GNOME with a GNOME talk at other events, to go read those guidelines! Many thanks to Matthew Garrett for his initial work on this, and to the community for the feedback sent after we've published a draft of this document. Thanks, Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: proposed speaker guidelines
Richard, I'm fairly certain these guidelines are more about not making the audience uncomfortable when prominent speakers make sexist remarks, or remarks critical of religion, If the policy is clearly limited to such activities and comparable ones, I would not object to it. I did not do either of those things at GUADEC (though I was inaccurately accused of doing one of them). If the intent is not to restrict what people say about technical and legal issues, I suggest clarifying the guidelines to make that clear. However, technical and legal issues are not the only ones that need to be admissible--ethical issues are also vital to talk about. The C# issue I addresses is basically an ethical issue, though technical and legal aspects come into it. Whatever the criteria are, they have to be objective at least in principle. They would still depend on judgment; that is inevitable. But if they are not objective in principle, they amount to anyone can veto anything. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: proposed speaker guidelines
It seems that your perception of my speech is very different from what I said. What made C# users uncomfortable was not this criticism about patents, it was the way it was presented as an almost personal attack towards mono developers. It wasn't presented that way by me. I did not criticize Mono or its developers. On the contrary, I said that Mono does a useful job and I have no objection to it. I said this to make it absolutely clear i did not criticize Mono. My feeling from the talk was that it was more aimed at making us feel bad about using C# than presenting some constructive plan on rectifying the situation My constructive plan for addressing this problem is to refuse to let C# programs play into an important role in GNOME. I propose that plan because I know we can carry it out, if we make an effort. (e.g. by working with Microsoft on the issue instead of calling them the avoid enemy and the situation hopeless). I don't think we can achieve anything that way. Microsoft decides its policy based on strategy, not sentiment. If Microsoft decides to change strategy, it will take steps to show us. Otherwise, efforts to work with Microsoft will get nowhere. The one way we MIGHT be able to change their conduct is by pushing back. Treating C# programs as dangerous, while developing free implementations such as Portable.NET and Mono, is pushing back. That's how I see it. If you think working with Microsoft could change its license policy, by all means try. But that is a long shot, so we should protect ourselves also, in parallel with those efforts. In that sense, I agree with the guidelines. When you're speaking as a representative of GNOME, you're fine to bring up any uncomfortable topic, just keep in mind the viewpoints of the people in the audience and keep it constructive. That proposal is better than what the draft guidelines say, and I mostly agree with it. I approached the issue constructively because my aim was to address the problem. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: proposed speaker guidelines
On za, 2010-03-27 at 18:49 -0400, Richard Stallman wrote: The proposed speaker guidelines have a serious problem. Since they prohibit anything that makes someone uncomfortable, regardless of why, and since criticism of one's actions tends to make many people uncomfortable, the consequence is to prohibit serious criticism of any practice that is followed by someone in the audience. For instance, when I asserted that use of C# was risky, someone in the audience objected, claiming that this was unfair to the C# language. Apparently that person felt uncomfortable with what I said about C#. It seems that these proposed guidelines would prohibit any statement that GNOME needs to avoid a certain practice lest it cause a serious problem. I don't think anyone has any objections against honest criticism against the possible legal aspects of technologies. This is a very important topic. What made C# users uncomfortable was not this criticism about patents, it was the way it was presented as an almost personal attack towards mono developers. My feeling from the talk was that it was more aimed at making us feel bad about using C# than presenting some constructive plan on rectifying the situation (e.g. by working with Microsoft on the issue instead of calling them the avoid enemy and the situation hopeless). While the critic was correct, the way it was ushered led to alienation of the people that are the most involved in the issue, rather than encouraging them to work on a constructive solution. There's a difference between making people uncomfortable because they might be in danger (and offering help) and making people uncomfortable through reprimands (and basically calling them collaborators with the enemy). In that sense, I agree with the guidelines. When you're speaking as a representative of GNOME, you're fine to bring up any uncomfortable topic, just keep in mind the viewpoints of the people in the audience and keep it constructive. Ruben PS: If you're the person that loves holding flamewars about this topic, please don't reply. -- Ruben Vermeersch (rubenv) http://www.savanne.be/ ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
proposed speaker guidelines
The proposed speaker guidelines have a serious problem. Since they prohibit anything that makes someone uncomfortable, regardless of why, and since criticism of one's actions tends to make many people uncomfortable, the consequence is to prohibit serious criticism of any practice that is followed by someone in the audience. For instance, when I asserted that use of C# was risky, someone in the audience objected, claiming that this was unfair to the C# language. Apparently that person felt uncomfortable with what I said about C#. It seems that these proposed guidelines would prohibit any statement that GNOME needs to avoid a certain practice lest it cause a serious problem. These proposed guidelines themselves can make someone uncomfortable. For instance, people who want to state firm criticism of a certain practice, whether on ethical or practical or technical grounds, may feel uncomfortable on being reminded that GNOME policy forbids the expression of such views. Thus, among the actions prohibited by these proposed guidelines would be reciting or summarizing the very same guidelines. Is it the intention to prohibit these things? If not, I think the wording needs some work. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: proposed speaker guidelines
On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 3:49 PM, Richard Stallman r...@gnu.org wrote: The proposed speaker guidelines have a serious problem. Since they prohibit anything that makes someone uncomfortable, regardless of why, and since criticism of one's actions tends to make many people uncomfortable, the consequence is to prohibit serious criticism of any practice that is followed by someone in the audience. This is true, maybe we should be a little more clear about what it means to make somebody uncomfortable in the context of these guidelines. I don't think the guidelines refer to making the audience uncomfortable with your technical or legal opinion. For instance, when I asserted that use of C# was risky, someone in the audience objected, claiming that this was unfair to the C# language. Apparently that person felt uncomfortable with what I said about C#. It seems that these proposed guidelines would prohibit any statement that GNOME needs to avoid a certain practice lest it cause a serious problem. Richard, I'm fairly certain these guidelines are more about not making the audience uncomfortable when prominent speakers make sexist remarks, or remarks critical of religion, etc etc, especially when these remarks are completely off-topic. I don't think they are meant to prevent you from making critical statements on relevant subject matter based on technical or legal arguments. When viewing these guidelines as a reaction to your own GUADEC keynote, I think you might be thinking of the wrong uncomfortable statements. Sandy ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Speaker Guidelines
Brian Cameron wrote: Oops, missing link here: http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct/SpeakerGuidelines I cleaned up some of the text on this page, though I didn't think deeply about the content. However, I think it is currently an invitation to the same old philosophical discussion every time there's a problem. I think we should state our position clearly, so it doesn't have to be said each time, at the end of a long thread. So I would add this text to the Dealing With Problems section: We are not interested in a debate about whether someone should feel offended. You should avoid offending people even if you do not share their views. We do not consider this to be excessive censorship. It does not stop you from offending outside of the community. -- murr...@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Speaker Guidelines
On Fri, 2010-03-26 at 11:31 +0100, Murray Cumming wrote: Brian Cameron wrote: Oops, missing link here: http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct/SpeakerGuidelines I cleaned up some of the text on this page, though I didn't think deeply about the content. However, I think it is currently an invitation to the same old philosophical discussion every time there's a problem. I think we should state our position clearly, so it doesn't have to be said each time, at the end of a long thread. So I would add this text to the Dealing With Problems section: I very much agree with stating the position clearly. We are not interested in a debate about whether someone should feel offended. You should avoid offending people even if you do not share their views. A clear position will avoid a lot of discussions, I agree. But then somebody of the board (or a appointed person) should also as soon as possible halt such offending statements with a reply like: Please follow our guidelines as stated in the Code Of Conduct which, since it is a requirement for all members, you agreed with. End of discussion. We do not consider this to be excessive censorship. It does not stop you from offending outside of the community. Exactly. Outside of GNOME's infrastructure people are free to do what they want. When using its infrastructure, foundation members are a guest and should stick to the principles and guidelines of the house. If they disagree they can try to vote the guideline away or don't be a member. A clear position makes happy people. Happy people contribute more. Cheers, Philip -- Philip Van Hoof freelance software developer Codeminded BVBA - http://codeminded.be ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Speaker Guidelines
Murray: However, I think it is currently an invitation to the same old philosophical discussion every time there's a problem. I think we should state our position clearly, so it doesn't have to be said each time, at the end of a long thread. So I would add this text to the Dealing With Problems section: We are not interested in a debate about whether someone should feel offended. You should avoid offending people even if you do not share their views. We do not consider this to be excessive censorship. It does not stop you from offending outside of the community. I agree with the above additions. However, I would word that last paragraph differently. We do not consider this to be excessive censorship since we are only asking community members to follow these guidelines in GNOME community forums. People are free to dismiss these guidelines or express themselves however they wish outside of GNOME community forums. I only suggest this because saying It does not stop you from offending outside of the community seems to imply that most people have an interest in offending people and will find these guidelines to be restrictive or burdensome. While there may be some people who feel this way, I think the guidelines are mostly common-sense and that most people would agree that they do not wish to offend others in the first place. I doubt that most people will not find them restrictive to follow. Brian ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Speaker Guidelines
On Fri, 2010-03-26 at 13:23 -0500, Brian Cameron wrote: We do not consider this to be excessive censorship. It does not stop you from offending outside of the community. I agree with the above additions. However, I would word that last paragraph differently. We do not consider this to be excessive censorship since we are only asking community members to follow these guidelines in GNOME community forums. People are free to dismiss these guidelines or express themselves however they wish outside of GNOME community forums. That's long. How about: We do not consider this to be excessive censorship. It does not limit your behavior outside of the GNOME community. -- murr...@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
