Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct)
El dj 01 de 06 del 2006 a les 10:51 -0500, en/na Shaun McCance va escriure: there tends to be a reasonably high percentage of women in technical jobs that aren't necessarily programming (though they may involve some programming), such as project management, tech writing, graphic design, and quality assurance. All of these positions tend to be under-represented in the free software world, at least among volunteer efforts. Good point. We can try to find and convince the very few geek women out there for free software hardcore programming. But if we miss people in all the non-programming tasks, wouldn't be easier to find new types of contributors through these gateways? Documentation, marketing, web publishing, graphic design, journalism, project coordination, community management... are tasks that involve both women and men in the professional world. We have difficulties recruiting volunteers, any kind of volunteers, in these tasks and I think the reason is not some kind of gender or minority discrimination but, put simply, the predominant geek culture (which I bet some sociologist has already found out to be based mainly on male and western paradigms). It is probably good to promote geek-ism in those aspects of free software related to programming but... is it useful to promote it in the rest of tasks? I don't think so, unless we want to develop a desktop and a bunch applications successful between geeks only. I bet this geek culture is stopping many women from being interested in the free software phenomena (in fact I asked several computer-friendly women and this is the answer I got). Being myself not a programmer, it stopped me from finding a place to contribute until I learned to be geek-friendly. And this culture is still stopping many of my non-geek colleagues (both women and men) to come and give a hand. Ask your friends. It is clear that women in general are happy investing their personal time in social activities without a monetary or even a clear benefit. Women have been key in any process of social change (even if their names don't appear in the history books). Have a look on social, non-commercial activities around the world and you will find women everywhere, many times challenging the gender percentages or simply having a clear superiority over men. If we fail involving women (and other majority groups in other social, non-commercial organizations and activities) it's because something else, an the geek culture is in the top of the suspicious list. We can work making the geek paradigms more feminine or less gender-determined but changing a paradigm takes time and there is no manual for it. Working on less geek-ish gateways and environments for the non-programming tasks seems to be a more tangible challenge that can make a change in the short term. -- Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org signature.asc Description: Això és una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct)
I think it is a natural step to take after the EU and FLOSSPOLS report has shown that women are being excluded from the community.- This rubs me the wrong way. It's not like we're actively working to exclude women, Asians, or Martians from GNOME. Nor are we actively trying to make GNOME a boys-only club. Simply put, there's no conscious, malicious intent behind the disproportionate male/female ratio, or Western/Asian ratio. And I think that this matters... Yet it may require conscious intent to fix it. If we want to se some change in attitudes and behavior in GNOME and FLOSS, and se more women involved in the future in all parts and capacities of our projects, we need to find out why only a little more than 1% of are women. ... because I don't believe that actively pursuing diversity for its own sake is a valid goal. I may sound myopic here, but I don't see what the goal of recruiting women qua women or Asians qua Asians gains us as a community. Other than the obvious morally repellent idea that we might be perceived as unwelcoming to arbitrary large groups of people [1], there are plenty of selfish reasons for doing this: - We are a worldwide project aiming to create a project to make the world a better place for humanity, so we really should be trying our best to involve representative parts of the world in that. It makes it more likely that we will create a product that helps with their goals. - Women + Asia are two huge groups of potential contributors. That many contributors can make a huge contribution if we can get them on board. [1] The idea is so awful that we should be doing whatever we can even if we are not sure that it's going to work or that we are the cause, certainly as long as those things are not going to hurt us. What we have to gain is far more than we have to lose. I refuse to measure diversity based on one's genitals or skin color. [However, (for example) recruiting Asians as an attempt to understand their needs, skills, and mentality in order to acquire a greater Asian market share, however, could be ok. Asians are the means. A rockin' version of GNOME on lots of Asian computers is the end.] Instituting open-door policies, non-discriminatory policies/codes of conduct, and the like are worthwhile goals in-and-of themselves. They advertise what the core tenets of our community are, and this is something we should become better at. But one should not necessarily abandon established (nay, endearing) traits of our community just to grow it larger. You'd give up something concretely cool about the community for some undefined, possibly non-existant benefit. And that ain't diversity, it's its opposite. I'd rather see us resolve to do a better job of marketing how open, cool, and charismatic we are as a community, and let the chips fall where they will. Get the word out to as many people as practicable, welcome everyone, and let the diversity come to us as an organic result of our general openness and coolness. Where we have some specific goal in mind, change as necessary to meet that goal. But don't change for change's sake alone. Recruit interesting people. Recruit smart, talented people. Recruit people useful for your ends. Welcome all people. But don't recruit genitals and skin colors. They're neither interesting nor useful for free software's purposes. Justice is blind, and so should we be. This unfortunately ignores the conclusion that many have made that some groups will not feel at home in a community until their are people like them in the community. To get to that critical mass we may need to help the process along a bit. I think Callum said it well: http://spooky-possum.org/cgi-bin/pyblosxom.cgi/womenoss.html The code of conduct doesn't try to address that directly, however. It's just a small part of it. Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct)
On 6/1/06, Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anne wrote: [snip] I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and make some cultural changes. I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan: http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhetmenu=org I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could get a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish into a language you understand.) [snip] Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will help you with it, but you need to create it and drive it. Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by someone with such experience. Luis ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct)
Hi, Luis Villa wrote: Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by someone with such experience. That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a developer from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women involved in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who's better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct)
Actually, it should be someone who is able to detect possible obstacles that put Asians or Women out of GNOME (or in general Free Software). I doubt that anyone have any emprical study about that. But is it harsh and rude behavior of developers or the community? Or technical limits? Or even communication problems? (ie. English knowledge or something). First thing is to come up with a reasonable problems that new comers would come across. And later people should follow a pathway to get rid of these obstacles. Actually Code of Conduct may only be successful for new comers if we detect those problems correctly. For that reason, ideas of the fresh community members is more important. If you're experienced then either you did not have any problem or you might even forgot those problems you'd encountered in past. Though, you might still remember old days, but chances are low. IMHO, Code Of Conduct (or GNOME Ethics) should be written for that very reason. Experienced members of the community might and would forget the problems for newcomers. Something should remind them. But still first thing to do is to detect obstacles first. Else, outcome of this work, won't get further than saying Be nice to each other with rhetoric. On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 09:05 -0400, Luis Villa wrote: On 6/1/06, Dave Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Luis Villa wrote: Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by someone with such experience. That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a developer from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women involved in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who's better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? A female geek? Luis ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct)
tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 16:27 +0300, skrev Baris Cicek: Actually, it should be someone who is able to detect possible obstacles that put Asians or Women out of GNOME (or in general Free Software). I doubt that anyone have any emprical study about that. But is it harsh and rude behavior of developers or the community? Or technical limits? Or even communication problems? (ie. English knowledge or something). First thing is to come up with a reasonable problems that new comers would come across. And later people should follow a pathway to get rid of these obstacles. Actually Code of Conduct may only be successful for new comers if we detect those problems correctly. For that reason, ideas of the fresh community members is more important. If you're experienced then either you did not have any problem or you might even forgot those problems you'd encountered in past. Though, you might still remember old days, but chances are low. IMHO, Code Of Conduct (or GNOME Ethics) should be written for that very reason. Experienced members of the community might and would forget the problems for newcomers. Something should remind them. But still first thing to do is to detect obstacles first. Else, outcome of this work, won't get further than saying Be nice to each other with rhetoric. I agree. A question is when do you feel you belong to the GNOME community? When there is a critical mass that is just like you and when you feel comfortable that a larger group share your way of thinking and ways of communicating? Anne On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 09:05 -0400, Luis Villa wrote: On 6/1/06, Dave Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Luis Villa wrote: Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by someone with such experience. That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a developer from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women involved in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who's better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? A female geek? Luis ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct)
tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 08:13 -0400, skrev Luis Villa: On 6/1/06, Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anne wrote: [snip] I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and make some cultural changes. I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan: http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhetmenu=org I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could get a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish into a language you understand.) [snip] Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will help you with it, but you need to create it and drive it. Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by someone with such experience. The FLOSSPOLS report was so eyeopening because it was written by a man who had to learn about these matters first and had a professional scientific experience and tool case to use. I will work with the whole of the women in FLOSS community as well as with the persons who wrote the FLOSSPOLS reports and others who have written scientific reports and with those of you who are interested. Just because you can't cover the whole spectrum personally does not mean that I am not entitled to have an opinion. I have experience in gender issues on a professional basis in the Nordic Countries, EU, and UN which might help. I attended the UN conference in Beijing representing the Nordic Council. Besides Luis I have manufactured a FLOSS nerd many years ago so I have access to free in house expertise on the technical matters. Have you by the way had time to read the FLOSSPOLS report yourself? Anne ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct)
On Iau, 2006-06-01 at 14:33 +0200, Murray Cumming wrote: Hmm, how about people working together? It just seems that the person who most most obviously wants this should be the person trying to make it happen. I'd be wary of pursuing just the women in GNOME issue, because many of the same things put off far more than just women. Running around shouting pants off is not, for example, very compatible with the Japanese cultural expectations. Also if Code of Conduct is too strong then Expected Behaviour perhaps. Personally I don't see a problem with Code of Conduct in that it deals with acting for, speaking for, representing or being part of Gnome, or when using its facilities. It isn't too much to ask for people to keep other stuff elsewhere, or to engage in other incompatible activities from a non-gnome email address or on a different irc network. Alan ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct)
tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 18:57 +0200, skrev Murray Cumming: On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 14:57 +0100, Alan Cox wrote: On Iau, 2006-06-01 at 14:33 +0200, Murray Cumming wrote: Hmm, how about people working together? It just seems that the person who most most obviously wants this should be the person trying to make it happen. I'd be wary of pursuing just the women in GNOME issue, because many of the same things put off far more than just women. Yes. Yes, that's why the gender issue is only one (possible) part of the code of conduct, though it's the reason that I got around to finally pushing it. But Anne is asking specifically for a gender policy/plan, apparently separate to that. I'd just like her to make a suggestion. I think it is a natural step to take after the EU and FLOSSPOLS report has shown that women are being excluded from the community.- If we want to se some change in attitudes and behavior in GNOME and FLOSS, and se more women involved in the future in all parts and capacities of our projects, we need to find out why only a little more than 1% of are women. Running around shouting pants off is not, for example, very compatible with the Japanese cultural expectations. I don't expect it either. Also if Code of Conduct is too strong then Expected Behaviour perhaps. Personally I don't see a problem with Code of Conduct in that it deals with acting for, speaking for, representing or being part of Gnome, or when using its facilities. I fully agree. Anne ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct)
On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 22:21 +0200, Anne Østergaard wrote: tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 18:57 +0200, skrev Murray Cumming: On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 14:57 +0100, Alan Cox wrote: [...] Also if Code of Conduct is too strong then Expected Behaviour perhaps. Personally I don't see a problem with Code of Conduct in that it deals with acting for, speaking for, representing or being part of Gnome, or when using its facilities. I fully agree. Some part of this already exists for a long time ago. But, at the moment it is only applied to mail aliases: http://developer.gnome.org/doc/policies/accounts/mail.html The proposal is a kind of extension of that policy, but in the other way (saying what is good). -- Germán Poó-Caamaño http://www.ubiobio.cl/~gpoo/ Concepción - Chile ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct)
Hi, Anne Østergaard wrote: tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 18:57 +0200, skrev Murray Cumming: I think it is a natural step to take after the EU and FLOSSPOLS report has shown that women are being excluded from the community.- What I've seen shows that women are not participating in the community - this is not necessarily the same thing as being excluded (which implies some kind of conscious decision on the part of the community). Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lyon, France ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct)
I think it is a natural step to take after the EU and FLOSSPOLS report has shown that women are being excluded from the community.- This rubs me the wrong way. It's not like we're actively working to exclude women, Asians, or Martians from GNOME. Nor are we actively trying to make GNOME a boys-only club. Simply put, there's no conscious, malicious intent behind the disproportionate male/female ratio, or Western/Asian ratio. And I think that this matters... If we want to se some change in attitudes and behavior in GNOME and FLOSS, and se more women involved in the future in all parts and capacities of our projects, we need to find out why only a little more than 1% of are women. ... because I don't believe that actively pursuing diversity for its own sake is a valid goal. I may sound myopic here, but I don't see what the goal of recruiting women qua women or Asians qua Asians gains us as a community. I refuse to measure diversity based on one's genitals or skin color. [However, (for example) recruiting Asians as an attempt to understand their needs, skills, and mentality in order to acquire a greater Asian market share, however, could be ok. Asians are the means. A rockin' version of GNOME on lots of Asian computers is the end.] Instituting open-door policies, non-discriminatory policies/codes of conduct, and the like are worthwhile goals in-and-of themselves. They advertise what the core tenets of our community are, and this is something we should become better at. But one should not necessarily abandon established (nay, endearing) traits of our community just to grow it larger. You'd give up something concretely cool about the community for some undefined, possibly non-existant benefit. And that ain't diversity, it's its opposite. I'd rather see us resolve to do a better job of marketing how open, cool, and charismatic we are as a community, and let the chips fall where they will. Get the word out to as many people as practicable, welcome everyone, and let the diversity come to us as an organic result of our general openness and coolness. Where we have some specific goal in mind, change as necessary to meet that goal. But don't change for change's sake alone. Recruit interesting people. Recruit smart, talented people. Recruit people useful for your ends. Welcome all people. But don't recruit genitals and skin colors. They're neither interesting nor useful for free software's purposes. Justice is blind, and so should we be. Best, Dom -- Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
