Re: Frame 11 Appearance

[Klaus Daube]

On 21 Feb 2013 at 14:14, Keith Soltys wrote:

 I thought that MicroType´s Express Customization tool for FrameMaker
 might be a partial solution to this as it does have customized
 toolbars with coloured icons. But alas, the toolbar customization is
 only available in FrameMaker 8 and earlier.  The FrameMaker 9-11
 version offers customized menus, but doesn´t change the toolbars. 

 I could have sworn that I saw an article or post about a tool that
 offered coloured icons in the FM 11 toolbars, but I can´t find it in
 my mail archives and a Google search was fruitless. 

Keith, most likely you have seen it at http://www.daube.ch/docu/fmaker66.html 

 Maybe somebody who´s good with a programming resource editor could solve
 this, but it´s beyond my skill level.

Unfortunately the OWL stuff in the new interface can not be handled by any RES 
hacker known to me.

HTH
Klaus Daube
~~
Docu + Design Daube; Schäracher 11; CH-8053 Zürich
Technical documentation  consultancy; On-line and paper
F: +41-44-422 86 25  E: d...@daube.ch  W: www.daube.ch

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RE: Frame 11 Appearance

[Keith Soltys]

Thanks! I knew I had seen this somewhere but couldn't find it.

I will have to get the upgraded version of MicroType's customization and 
install this.

Regards
Keith

From: Rick Quatro [mailto:r...@rickquatro.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 10:01 PM
To: Keith Soltys; framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Frame 11 Appearance

http://www.daube.ch/docu/fmaker66.html

From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Keith Soltys
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:15 AM
To: sha...@anthrobytes.com; framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Frame 11 Appearance

I thought that MicroType's Express Customization tool for FrameMaker might be a 
partial solution to this as it does have customized toolbars with coloured 
icons. But alas, the toolbar customization is only available in FrameMaker 8 
and earlier.  The FrameMaker 9-11 version offers customized menus, but doesn't 
change the toolbars.

I could have sworn that I saw an article or post about a tool that offered 
coloured icons in the FM 11 toolbars, but I can't find it in my mail archives 
and a Google search was fruitless.

And that still wouldn't solve the icky font issue in the tabs.

Maybe somebody who's good with a programming resource editor could solve this, 
but it's beyond my skill level.

Regards
Keith


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Frame 11 Appearance

[Klaus Daube]

On 21 Feb 2013 at 14:14, Keith Soltys wrote:

> I thought that MicroType?s Express Customization tool for FrameMaker
> might be a partial solution to this as it does have customized
> toolbars with coloured icons. But alas, the toolbar customization is
> only available in FrameMaker 8 and earlier.? The FrameMaker 9-11
> version offers customized menus, but doesn?t change the toolbars. 
>
> I could have sworn that I saw an article or post about a tool that
> offered coloured icons in the FM 11 toolbars, but I can?t find it in
> my mail archives and a Google search was fruitless. 

Keith, most likely you have seen it at http://www.daube.ch/docu/fmaker66.html 

> Maybe somebody who?s good with a programming resource editor could solve
> this, but it?s beyond my skill level.

Unfortunately the OWL stuff in the new interface can not be handled by any RES 
hacker known to me.

HTH
Klaus Daube
~~
Docu + Design Daube; Sch?racher 11; CH-8053 Z?rich
Technical documentation & consultancy; On-line and paper
F: +41-44-422 86 25  E: ddd at daube.ch  W: www.daube.ch

Frame 11 Appearance

[Keith Soltys]

Thanks! I knew I had seen this somewhere but couldn't find it.

I will have to get the upgraded version of MicroType's customization and 
install this.

Regards
Keith

From: Rick Quatro [mailto:r...@rickquatro.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 10:01 PM
To: Keith Soltys; framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Frame 11 Appearance

http://www.daube.ch/docu/fmaker66.html

From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Keith Soltys
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:15 AM
To: sharon at anthrobytes.com; framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Frame 11 Appearance

I thought that MicroType's Express Customization tool for FrameMaker might be a 
partial solution to this as it does have customized toolbars with coloured 
icons. But alas, the toolbar customization is only available in FrameMaker 8 
and earlier.  The FrameMaker 9-11 version offers customized menus, but doesn't 
change the toolbars.

I could have sworn that I saw an article or post about a tool that offered 
coloured icons in the FM 11 toolbars, but I can't find it in my mail archives 
and a Google search was fruitless.

And that still wouldn't solve the icky font issue in the tabs.

Maybe somebody who's good with a programming resource editor could solve this, 
but it's beyond my skill level.

Regards
Keith


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contient ou qui y sont joints, renferme des renseignements exclusifs et 
confidentiels destin?s uniquement ? l'usage interne du destinataire pr?vu. Si 
vous avez re?u le pr?sent courriel par erreur, veuillez nous aviser 
imm?diatement, notamment par retour de courriel, et vous assurer qu'il est 
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RE: Frame 11 Appearance

[Keith Soltys]

I thought that MicroType's Express Customization tool for FrameMaker might be a 
partial solution to this as it does have customized toolbars with coloured 
icons. But alas, the toolbar customization is only available in FrameMaker 8 
and earlier.  The FrameMaker 9-11 version offers customized menus, but doesn't 
change the toolbars.

I could have sworn that I saw an article or post about a tool that offered 
coloured icons in the FM 11 toolbars, but I can't find it in my mail archives 
and a Google search was fruitless.

And that still wouldn't solve the icky font issue in the tabs.

Maybe somebody who's good with a programming resource editor could solve this, 
but it's beyond my skill level.

Regards
Keith

From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Sharon Burton
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 3:34 PM
To: tm...@spot-on-creative.com; framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Frame 11 Appearance

I have spent time with anyone on the TCS team I could find, complaining about 
the UI for older eyes. It's a perfectly suitable UI for 25 year old eyes and a 
perfectly wretched UI for older eyes. The low contrast tiny icons are horrible 
and make my head hurt after an hour or so. Stronger contrast with color would 
be the best. Maybe slightly larger icons, since we are there.

And remember that Tech Comm is typically a second career, meaning by definition 
we are going to have more older eyes than we might. So, this is the wrong UI 
for the user base. They really need to listen to the users on this.

Stop asking the 25 year old developers if they like the UI. Ask the USERS, most 
of whom are not 25 years old.

And then don't get me started on the UI for Acrobat.

The UI for Photoshop probably works for that user base. But it's a mistake to 
assume all Adobe products have that user base. Because we aren't. But they are 
taking that UI and making it the default UI for all products. It's the wrong UI 
for people not doing intense color work with 25 year old eyes.


sharon

Sharon Burton
951-369-8590
www.sharonburton.comhttp://www.sharonburton.com
Twitter: sharonburton
Author of 8 Steps to Amazing Webinars,
available on Amazon and bn.com

NOTICE OF CONFIDENTIALITY This e-mail, including all materials contained in or 
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supprim? de fa?on permanente de vos syst?mes; veuillez ?galement vous abstenir 
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RE: Frame 11 Appearance

[Rick Quatro]

http://www.daube.ch/docu/fmaker66.html

 

From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Keith Soltys
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:15 AM
To: sha...@anthrobytes.com; framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Frame 11 Appearance

 

I thought that MicroType's Express Customization tool for FrameMaker might
be a partial solution to this as it does have customized toolbars with
coloured icons. But alas, the toolbar customization is only available in
FrameMaker 8 and earlier.  The FrameMaker 9-11 version offers customized
menus, but doesn't change the toolbars.

 

I could have sworn that I saw an article or post about a tool that offered
coloured icons in the FM 11 toolbars, but I can't find it in my mail
archives and a Google search was fruitless. 

 

And that still wouldn't solve the icky font issue in the tabs. 

 

Maybe somebody who's good with a programming resource editor could solve
this, but it's beyond my skill level.

 

Regards

Keith

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Frame 11 Appearance

[rebecca officer]

Hi everyone

I actually raised this as a bug with Adobe when I first saw FM11. It's worse 
than just ugly for me; that drop-shadow's a bit of a migraine trigger. I'm 
really hoping they'll make it optional!

Cheers
Rebecca


>>> "Carol J. Elkins"  02/21/13 7:57 AM >>>
I'm so glad other people have commented about their dislike of this 
"feature." I hate it too. But it isn't that the text isn't sharp, 
it's that it has a white drop-shadow. Adobe, please make this go away 
on the next version or tell us if we can change it ourselves. It has 
made it very difficult to read the text in my tabs.

Carol

At 11:00 AM 2/20/2013, you wrote:
>Subject: Re: Frame 11 Appearance
>Message: 17
>
>Under Edit > Preferences you can select the monitor size. That might 
>sharpen the text on the tabs.
>
>
>Regards,
>Shmuel Wolfson
>052-763-7133
>On 20-Feb-13 3:50 PM, Joel wrote:
>>I am on Windows 7, using Frame 11.
>>Ever since moving to Win 7 and Frame 11, the appearance of my tabs 
>>is really ugly. For example:
>>
>>Not sure if you can tell from this, but the fonts are highlighted 
>>and shadowed in a strange way. Does anyone know if this is a Frame 
>>or a Windows setting? Changing Windows settings hasn't seemed to 
>>affect this. Thanks,
>>
>>Joel

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Frame 11 Appearance

[Keith Soltys]

I thought that MicroType's Express Customization tool for FrameMaker might be a 
partial solution to this as it does have customized toolbars with coloured 
icons. But alas, the toolbar customization is only available in FrameMaker 8 
and earlier.  The FrameMaker 9-11 version offers customized menus, but doesn't 
change the toolbars.

I could have sworn that I saw an article or post about a tool that offered 
coloured icons in the FM 11 toolbars, but I can't find it in my mail archives 
and a Google search was fruitless.

And that still wouldn't solve the icky font issue in the tabs.

Maybe somebody who's good with a programming resource editor could solve this, 
but it's beyond my skill level.

Regards
Keith

From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Sharon Burton
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 3:34 PM
To: tmuir at spot-on-creative.com; framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Frame 11 Appearance

I have spent time with anyone on the TCS team I could find, complaining about 
the UI for older eyes. It's a perfectly suitable UI for 25 year old eyes and a 
perfectly wretched UI for older eyes. The low contrast tiny icons are horrible 
and make my head hurt after an hour or so. Stronger contrast with color would 
be the best. Maybe slightly larger icons, since we are there.

And remember that Tech Comm is typically a second career, meaning by definition 
we are going to have more older eyes than we might. So, this is the wrong UI 
for the user base. They really need to listen to the users on this.

Stop asking the 25 year old developers if they like the UI. Ask the USERS, most 
of whom are not 25 years old.

And then don't get me started on the UI for Acrobat.

The UI for Photoshop probably works for that user base. But it's a mistake to 
assume all Adobe products have that user base. Because we aren't. But they are 
taking that UI and making it the default UI for all products. It's the wrong UI 
for people not doing intense color work with 25 year old eyes.


sharon

Sharon Burton
951-369-8590
www.sharonburton.com<http://www.sharonburton.com>
Twitter: sharonburton
Author of 8 Steps to Amazing Webinars,
available on Amazon and bn.com

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contient ou qui y sont joints, renferme des renseignements exclusifs et 
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vous avez re?u le pr?sent courriel par erreur, veuillez nous aviser 
imm?diatement, notamment par retour de courriel, et vous assurer qu'il est 
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Frame 11 Appearance

[Rick Quatro]

http://www.daube.ch/docu/fmaker66.html



From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Keith Soltys
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:15 AM
To: sharon at anthrobytes.com; framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Frame 11 Appearance



I thought that MicroType's Express Customization tool for FrameMaker might
be a partial solution to this as it does have customized toolbars with
coloured icons. But alas, the toolbar customization is only available in
FrameMaker 8 and earlier.  The FrameMaker 9-11 version offers customized
menus, but doesn't change the toolbars.



I could have sworn that I saw an article or post about a tool that offered
coloured icons in the FM 11 toolbars, but I can't find it in my mail
archives and a Google search was fruitless. 



And that still wouldn't solve the icky font issue in the tabs. 



Maybe somebody who's good with a programming resource editor could solve
this, but it's beyond my skill level.



Regards

Keith

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RE: Frame 11 Appearance

[Jeff Coatsworth]

You can play around a bit with shading in the FM prefs, but it's pretty limited.

From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Joel
Sent: February-20-13 8:50 AM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Frame 11 Appearance

I am on Windows 7, using Frame 11.
Ever since moving to Win 7 and Frame 11, the appearance of my tabs is really 
ugly. For example:
[cid:image001.jpg@01CE0F48.7C069070]
Not sure if you can tell from this, but the fonts are highlighted and shadowed 
in a strange way. Does anyone know if this is a Frame or a Windows setting? 
Changing Windows settings hasn't seemed to affect this. Thanks,

Joel
inline: image001.jpg___


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Re: Frame 11 Appearance

[Shmuel Wolfson]

  
  
Under Edit  Preferences you can
  select the monitor size. That might sharpen the text on the tabs.
  
  Regards,
Shmuel Wolfson
052-763-7133

  On 20-Feb-13 3:50 PM, Joel wrote:

I am on Windows 7, using Frame 11.
  Ever since moving to Win 7 and Frame 11, the appearance of my tabs
  is really ugly. For example:
  
  
  Not sure if you can tell from this, but the fonts
arehighlightedand shadowed in a strange way. Does anyone know
if this is a Frame or a Windows setting? Changing Windows
settings hasn't seemed to affect this. Thanks,
  
  
  Joel
  
  
  
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Re: Frame 11 Appearance

[Yves Barbion]

Hi Joel

I'm seeing this too (Frame 11, Windows XP), so it must be a Frame feature.



Very ugly indeed.

I prefer the old Frame 9 tabs, without the shadow, much clearer:



@Shmuel: changing the monitor preferences doesn't help in my case.

Cheers


-- 
Yves Barbion
www.scripto.nu
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RE: Frame 11 Appearance

[Bethany Lee]

I am pretty sure that is a frame thing. I went from Frame 9 to Frame 11 
recently without changing my OS and I get that ugly font and shadow too. I 
wonder whose idea that was! I hate it! It's really hard to read.

From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Joel
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 8:50 AM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Frame 11 Appearance

I am on Windows 7, using Frame 11.
Ever since moving to Win 7 and Frame 11, the appearance of my tabs is really 
ugly. For example:
[Inline image 1]
Not sure if you can tell from this, but the fonts are highlighted and shadowed 
in a strange way. Does anyone know if this is a Frame or a Windows setting? 
Changing Windows settings hasn't seemed to affect this. Thanks,

Joel
inline: image001.jpg___


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Re: Frame 11 Appearance

[Karen Robbins]

Me too! I truly dislike the dark, drab, low-contrasty appearance of 
Frame and all the Adobe apps. Whatever happened to clarity, 
readability, contrast, and the ability to size UI text for improved 
accessibility? Even the best settings aren't good enough--it goes 
from really low contrast and poor readability to barely-tolerable 
contrast and still poor readability.


Another bad interface is recent Acrobat (Pro). UI elements are 
oversized, clunky, and take up far too much screen real estate! I 
hate having to click, click, click all over the place to reveal and 
hide stuff, and have the document jump around, resize, etc. while 
doing so. As bad on Mac as on PC, unfortunately.


(And don't get me started about Dreamweaver)

--Karen
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Re: Frame 11 Appearance

[Carol J. Elkins]

I'm so glad other people have commented about their dislike of this 
feature. I hate it too. But it isn't that the text isn't sharp, 
it's that it has a white drop-shadow. Adobe, please make this go away 
on the next version or tell us if we can change it ourselves. It has 
made it very difficult to read the text in my tabs.


Carol

At 11:00 AM 2/20/2013, you wrote:

Subject: Re: Frame 11 Appearance
Message: 17

Under Edit  Preferences you can select the monitor size. That might 
sharpen the text on the tabs.



Regards,
Shmuel Wolfson
052-763-7133
On 20-Feb-13 3:50 PM, Joel wrote:

I am on Windows 7, using Frame 11.
Ever since moving to Win 7 and Frame 11, the appearance of my tabs 
is really ugly. For example:


Not sure if you can tell from this, but the fonts are highlighted 
and shadowed in a strange way. Does anyone know if this is a Frame 
or a Windows setting? Changing Windows settings hasn't seemed to 
affect this. Thanks,


Joel


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RE: Frame 11 Appearance

[Jeff Coatsworth]

Consistent look  feel across all Adobe products = equally bad UI for all ;)

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Carol J. Elkins
Sent: February-20-13 1:55 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: Frame 11 Appearance

I'm so glad other people have commented about their dislike of this 
feature. I hate it too. But it isn't that the text isn't sharp, 
it's that it has a white drop-shadow. Adobe, please make this go away 
on the next version or tell us if we can change it ourselves. It has 
made it very difficult to read the text in my tabs.

Carol

At 11:00 AM 2/20/2013, you wrote:
Subject: Re: Frame 11 Appearance
Message: 17

Under Edit  Preferences you can select the monitor size. That might 
sharpen the text on the tabs.


Regards,
Shmuel Wolfson
052-763-7133
On 20-Feb-13 3:50 PM, Joel wrote:
I am on Windows 7, using Frame 11.
Ever since moving to Win 7 and Frame 11, the appearance of my tabs 
is really ugly. For example:

Not sure if you can tell from this, but the fonts are highlighted 
and shadowed in a strange way. Does anyone know if this is a Frame 
or a Windows setting? Changing Windows settings hasn't seemed to 
affect this. Thanks,

Joel

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Re: Frame 11 Appearance

[Tori Muir]

  
  
Preach it, sister! #1 thing our team HATE about Acrobat X: the
Next/Previous comment buttons for PDF edits were taken away. Why,
Adobe, why?! It took considerable effort to convince our clients to
shift from an all-Word workflow to a Frame + PDF markup workflow,
then Adobe go and make that workflow substantially less efficient.
In a document with hundreds of comments, scrolling through
them via the side scrollbar is a giant PITA: hard to control and
prone to missing individual comments. No exaggeration, between this
missing feature and the jumping around mentioned below, Acrobat X
adds 20% to the time needed to work through a round of edits. But
the #2 thing that is disliked is the PlaySkool-size
gray-on-gray-on-gray UI elements now afflicting all Adobe apps.
Color is a great way to easily distinguish between tiny icons,
especially for those of us with eyeballs that have passed the
half-century mark. And the chunky, clunky font is neither attractive
nor easy to read. Loath though I am to praise anything emanating
from Redmond, Word's interface is at present a lot better to work
with. 

Tori Muir
tm...@spot-on-creative.com | 650.430.8674
www.spot-on-creative.com

On 2/20/13 10:41 AM, Karen Robbins wrote:
Me too! I truly dislike the dark, drab, low-contrasty
  appearance of Frame and all the Adobe apps. Whatever happened to
  clarity, readability, contrast, and the ability to size UI text
  for improved accessibility? Even the best settings aren't good
  enough--it goes from really low contrast and poor readability to
  barely-tolerable contrast and still poor readability.
  
  
  Another bad interface is recent Acrobat (Pro). UI elements are
  oversized, clunky, and take up far too much screen real estate! I
  hate having to click, click, click all over the place to reveal
  and hide stuff, and have the document jump around, resize, etc.
  while doing so. As bad on Mac as on PC, unfortunately.
  
  
  (And don't get me started about Dreamweaver)
  
  
  --Karen
  
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Re: Frame 11 Appearance

[Frank Stearns]

Framers -

Glad this topic has come up.

A few months back we were invited to offer opinions to one of the 
engineers involved with UI design.


we had a 90 minute call; I came prepared with a long list generated 
after only a short stint with FM11 -- my list had most of the same 
complaints voiced in this thread, and even a few more.


Not sure how much I am able to reveal about that call (and there were 
some surprises in the conversation on both sides), but the point is 
that Adobe seems to have a genuine interest in getting this right, 
though I don't know how much momentum might be behind the UI as it now 
stands.


I tried to cover that too and suggested more user configuration 
options for the look and feel if the standard UI didn't work for 
people. (There are some good starts in that direction, but they do 
need to be filled out.)


I also suggested a little closer look at complaints about 
look/feel issues during beta cycles, as many of these issues had been 
brought up by beta testers.


Adobe does monitor this list, so perhaps seeing common expressions 
about the same issues adds weight. Now, that doesn't mean a pile on; 
I think/hope they've gotten the message. But if you do have something 
not already noted in this thread, perhaps express it briefly, tell why 
it's a problem and what would make it better.


My US$0.02. My opinions only. YMMV, etc.

Frank

Frank Stearns Associates | makers of IXgen(tm) for FrameMaker(r)
*** IXGEN 7-10 for FRAMEMAKER 10/11 IS HERE! ***
fra...@fsatools.com mailto:fra...@fsatools.com
TOLL FREE Voice (USA and Canada):  800-567-6421
USA Voice: 360-892-3970  http://www.fsatools.com
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RE: Frame 11 Appearance

[Steve Rickaby]

I wasn't going to say it. I really wasn't. I read the postings, and didn't 
post. And didn't post. I tried so hard not to post. But I failed.

The ghastly thing that Joel posted was *so* reminiscent of circa-mid-1990s Mac 
apps, when they were constrained to fake fonts like 'New York', with klunky 
'effects'.

Has Windows Frame really moved on so little?

-- 
Steve [Happily on Frame 7 for Mac for as long as I can be]
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RE: Frame 11 Appearance

[Sharon Burton]

I have spent time with anyone on the TCS team I could find, complaining
about the UI for older eyes. It's a perfectly suitable UI for 25 year old
eyes and a perfectly wretched UI for older eyes. The low contrast tiny icons
are horrible and make my head hurt after an hour or so. Stronger contrast
with color would be the best. Maybe slightly larger icons, since we are
there. 

 

And remember that Tech Comm is typically a second career, meaning by
definition we are going to have more older eyes than we might. So, this is
the wrong UI for the user base. They really need to listen to the users on
this. 

 

Stop asking the 25 year old developers if they like the UI. Ask the USERS,
most of whom are not 25 years old.

 

And then don't get me started on the UI for Acrobat. 

 

The UI for Photoshop probably works for that user base. But it's a mistake
to assume all Adobe products have that user base. Because we aren't. But
they are taking that UI and making it the default UI for all products. It's
the wrong UI for people not doing intense color work with 25 year old eyes.

 

 

sharon

 

Sharon Burton

951-369-8590

www.sharonburton.com

Twitter: sharonburton

Author of 8 Steps to Amazing Webinars, 
available on Amazon and bn.com

 

From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Tori Muir
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 11:18 AM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: Frame 11 Appearance

 

Preach it, sister! #1 thing our team HATE about Acrobat X: the Next/Previous
comment buttons for PDF edits were taken away. Why, Adobe, why?!  It took
considerable effort to convince our clients to shift from an all-Word
workflow to a Frame + PDF markup workflow, then Adobe go and make that
workflow substantially less efficient.  In a document with hundreds of
comments, scrolling through them via the side scrollbar is a giant PITA:
hard to control and prone to missing individual comments. No exaggeration,
between this missing feature and the jumping around mentioned below, Acrobat
X adds 20% to the time needed to work through a round of edits.  But the #2
thing that is disliked is the PlaySkool-size gray-on-gray-on-gray UI
elements now afflicting all Adobe apps. Color is a great way to easily
distinguish between tiny icons, especially for those of us with eyeballs
that have passed the half-century mark. And the chunky, clunky font is
neither attractive nor easy to read.  Loath though I am to praise anything
emanating from Redmond, Word's interface is at present a lot better to work
with. 




Tori Muir
tm...@spot-on-creative.com | 650.430.8674
www.spot-on-creative.com


On 2/20/13 10:41 AM, Karen Robbins wrote: 

Me too! I truly dislike the dark, drab, low-contrasty appearance of Frame
and all the Adobe apps. Whatever happened to clarity, readability, contrast,
and the ability to size UI text for improved accessibility? Even the best
settings aren't good enough--it goes from really low contrast and poor
readability to barely-tolerable contrast and still poor readability. 

Another bad interface is recent Acrobat (Pro). UI elements are oversized,
clunky, and take up far too much screen real estate! I hate having to click,
click, click all over the place to reveal and hide stuff, and have the
document jump around, resize, etc. while doing so. As bad on Mac as on PC,
unfortunately. 

(And don't get me started about Dreamweaver) 

--Karen 
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Re: Frame 11 Appearance

[Stuart Rogers]

On 20/02/2013 3:12 PM, Frank Stearns wrote:

Framers -

Glad this topic has come up.


...

Adobe does monitor this list, so perhaps seeing common expressions about
the same issues adds weight. Now, that doesn't mean a pile on; I
think/hope they've gotten the message.



Thanks very much for providing Adobe with your input, Frank.  We can 
only hope and pray that whoever you spoke with has enough influence to 
actually cause a change.  It is certain that so far, Adobe has decidedly 
NOT gotten the message.  If they had, they would have fixed the UI 
before releasing FM 11.  People on this list have been complaining 
vociferously ever since the Stalin-inspired interface showed up two 
releases ago, but it has only gotten worse.


I am copying Neeraj Mishra, who recently posted to this list as Account 
Development Manager for the print and publishing software of Adobe. 
Are you listening, Neeraj??!!


Thanks, /rant

--
Stuart Rogers
Technical Communicator
Phoenix Geophysics Limited
3781 Victoria Park Avenue, Unit 3
Toronto, ON, Canada  M1W 3K5
+1 (416) 491-7340 x 325

http://www.phoenix-geophysics.com
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RE: Frame 11 Appearance

[Syed Zaeem Hosain (syed.hos...@aeris.net)]

For me, the so-called new and improved UI in FM 11 is why I generally still 
use FM 8 for some of my older documents, and only start FM 11 when I have the 
need for features in it.

The look and feel of the recent versions of FM are the worst (some good 
features, but mostly bad) since I began using FrameMaker back in 1988.

I beta-tested FM 3 and 5 a long time ago, and have not been involved in any 
more since then. So, Frank, I am also glad you are raising your concerns during 
these more recent betas - I hope you are heard by _somebody_ in authority at 
Adobe to make a decision to fix this someday.

Z

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Stuart Rogers
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 12:58 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Cc: nmis...@adobe.com
Subject: Re: Frame 11 Appearance

On 20/02/2013 3:12 PM, Frank Stearns wrote:
 Framers -

 Glad this topic has come up.

...
 Adobe does monitor this list, so perhaps seeing common expressions about the 
 same issues adds weight. Now, that doesn't mean a pile on; I think/hope 
 they've gotten the message.

Thanks very much for providing Adobe with your input, Frank.  We can only hope 
and pray that whoever you spoke with has enough influence to actually cause a 
change.  It is certain that so far, Adobe has decidedly NOT gotten the message. 
 If they had, they would have fixed the UI before releasing FM 11.  People on 
this list have been complaining vociferously ever since the Stalin-inspired 
interface showed up two releases ago, but it has only gotten worse.

I am copying Neeraj Mishra, who recently posted to this list as Account 
Development Manager for the print and publishing software of Adobe. 
Are you listening, Neeraj??!!

Thanks, /rant

--
Stuart Rogers
Technical Communicator
Phoenix Geophysics Limited
3781 Victoria Park Avenue, Unit 3
Toronto, ON, Canada  M1W 3K5
+1 (416) 491-7340 x 325

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Re: Frame 11 Appearance

[rebecca officer]

Hi everyone

I actually raised this as a bug with Adobe when I first saw FM11. It's worse 
than just ugly for me; that drop-shadow's a bit of a migraine trigger. I'm 
really hoping they'll make it optional!

Cheers
Rebecca


 Carol J. Elkins celk...@awrittenword.com 02/21/13 7:57 AM 
I'm so glad other people have commented about their dislike of this 
feature. I hate it too. But it isn't that the text isn't sharp, 
it's that it has a white drop-shadow. Adobe, please make this go away 
on the next version or tell us if we can change it ourselves. It has 
made it very difficult to read the text in my tabs.

Carol

At 11:00 AM 2/20/2013, you wrote:
Subject: Re: Frame 11 Appearance
Message: 17

Under Edit  Preferences you can select the monitor size. That might 
sharpen the text on the tabs.


Regards,
Shmuel Wolfson
052-763-7133
On 20-Feb-13 3:50 PM, Joel wrote:
I am on Windows 7, using Frame 11.
Ever since moving to Win 7 and Frame 11, the appearance of my tabs 
is really ugly. For example:

Not sure if you can tell from this, but the fonts are highlighted 
and shadowed in a strange way. Does anyone know if this is a Frame 
or a Windows setting? Changing Windows settings hasn't seemed to 
affect this. Thanks,

Joel

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If you have received this message in error please
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Frame 11 Appearance

[Joel]

I am on Windows 7, using Frame 11.
Ever since moving to Win 7 and Frame 11, the appearance of my tabs is
really ugly. For example:
[image: Inline image 1]
Not sure if you can tell from this, but the fonts are highlighted and
shadowed in a strange way. Does anyone know if this is a Frame or a Windows
setting? Changing Windows settings hasn't seemed to affect this. Thanks,

Joel
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Frame 11 Appearance

[Jeff Coatsworth]

You can play around a bit with shading in the FM prefs, but it's pretty limited.

From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Joel
Sent: February-20-13 8:50 AM
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Frame 11 Appearance

I am on Windows 7, using Frame 11.
Ever since moving to Win 7 and Frame 11, the appearance of my tabs is really 
ugly. For example:
[cid:image001.jpg at 01CE0F48.7C069070]
Not sure if you can tell from this, but the fonts are highlighted and shadowed 
in a strange way. Does anyone know if this is a Frame or a Windows setting? 
Changing Windows settings hasn't seemed to affect this. Thanks,

Joel
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Frame 11 Appearance

[Shmuel Wolfson]

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Frame 11 Appearance

[Yves Barbion]

Hi Joel

I'm seeing this too (Frame 11, Windows XP), so it must be a Frame "feature".



Very ugly indeed.

I prefer the old Frame 9 tabs, without the shadow, much clearer:



@Shmuel: changing the monitor preferences doesn't help in my case.

Cheers


-- 
Yves Barbion
www.scripto.nu
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Frame 11 Appearance

[Bethany Lee]

I am pretty sure that is a frame thing. I went from Frame 9 to Frame 11 
recently without changing my OS and I get that ugly font and shadow too. I 
wonder whose idea that was! I hate it! It's really hard to read.

From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Joel
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 8:50 AM
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Frame 11 Appearance

I am on Windows 7, using Frame 11.
Ever since moving to Win 7 and Frame 11, the appearance of my tabs is really 
ugly. For example:
[Inline image 1]
Not sure if you can tell from this, but the fonts are highlighted and shadowed 
in a strange way. Does anyone know if this is a Frame or a Windows setting? 
Changing Windows settings hasn't seemed to affect this. Thanks,

Joel
-- next part --
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Frame 11 Appearance

[Karen Robbins]

Me too! I truly dislike the dark, drab, low-contrasty appearance of 
Frame and all the Adobe apps. Whatever happened to clarity, 
readability, contrast, and the ability to size UI text for improved 
accessibility? Even the best settings aren't good enough--it goes 
from really low contrast and poor readability to barely-tolerable 
contrast and still poor readability.

Another bad interface is recent Acrobat (Pro). UI elements are 
oversized, clunky, and take up far too much screen real estate! I 
hate having to click, click, click all over the place to reveal and 
hide stuff, and have the document jump around, resize, etc. while 
doing so. As bad on Mac as on PC, unfortunately.

(And don't get me started about Dreamweaver)

--Karen

Frame 11 Appearance

[Carol J. Elkins]

I'm so glad other people have commented about their dislike of this 
"feature." I hate it too. But it isn't that the text isn't sharp, 
it's that it has a white drop-shadow. Adobe, please make this go away 
on the next version or tell us if we can change it ourselves. It has 
made it very difficult to read the text in my tabs.

Carol

At 11:00 AM 2/20/2013, you wrote:
>Subject: Re: Frame 11 Appearance
>Message: 17
>
>Under Edit > Preferences you can select the monitor size. That might 
>sharpen the text on the tabs.
>
>
>Regards,
>Shmuel Wolfson
>052-763-7133
>On 20-Feb-13 3:50 PM, Joel wrote:
>>I am on Windows 7, using Frame 11.
>>Ever since moving to Win 7 and Frame 11, the appearance of my tabs 
>>is really ugly. For example:
>>
>>Not sure if you can tell from this, but the fonts are highlighted 
>>and shadowed in a strange way. Does anyone know if this is a Frame 
>>or a Windows setting? Changing Windows settings hasn't seemed to 
>>affect this. Thanks,
>>
>>Joel

Frame 11 Appearance

[Jeff Coatsworth]

Consistent look & feel across all Adobe products = equally bad UI for all ;>)

-Original Message-
From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Carol J. Elkins
Sent: February-20-13 1:55 PM
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: Frame 11 Appearance

I'm so glad other people have commented about their dislike of this 
"feature." I hate it too. But it isn't that the text isn't sharp, 
it's that it has a white drop-shadow. Adobe, please make this go away 
on the next version or tell us if we can change it ourselves. It has 
made it very difficult to read the text in my tabs.

Carol

At 11:00 AM 2/20/2013, you wrote:
>Subject: Re: Frame 11 Appearance
>Message: 17
>
>Under Edit > Preferences you can select the monitor size. That might 
>sharpen the text on the tabs.
>
>
>Regards,
>Shmuel Wolfson
>052-763-7133
>On 20-Feb-13 3:50 PM, Joel wrote:
>>I am on Windows 7, using Frame 11.
>>Ever since moving to Win 7 and Frame 11, the appearance of my tabs 
>>is really ugly. For example:
>>
>>Not sure if you can tell from this, but the fonts are highlighted 
>>and shadowed in a strange way. Does anyone know if this is a Frame 
>>or a Windows setting? Changing Windows settings hasn't seemed to 
>>affect this. Thanks,
>>
>>Joel

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Frame 11 Appearance

[Tori Muir]

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

Frame 11 Appearance

[Frank Stearns]

Framers -

Glad this topic has come up.

A few months back we were invited to offer opinions to one of the 
engineers involved with UI design.

we had a 90 minute call; I came prepared with a long list generated 
after only a short stint with FM11 -- my list had most of the same 
complaints voiced in this thread, and even a few more.

Not sure how much I am able to reveal about that call (and there were 
some surprises in the conversation on both sides), but the point is 
that Adobe seems to have a genuine interest in getting this right, 
though I don't know how much momentum might be behind the UI as it now 
stands.

I tried to cover that too and suggested more user configuration 
options for the look and feel if the "standard" UI didn't work for 
people. (There are some good starts in that direction, but they do 
need to be filled out.)

I also suggested a little closer look at complaints about 
look/feel issues during beta cycles, as many of these issues had been 
brought up by beta testers.

Adobe does monitor this list, so perhaps seeing common expressions 
about the same issues adds weight. Now, that doesn't mean a "pile on;" 
I think/hope they've gotten the message. But if you do have something 
not already noted in this thread, perhaps express it briefly, tell why 
it's a problem and what would make it better.

My US$0.02. My opinions only. YMMV, etc.

Frank

Frank Stearns Associates | makers of IXgen(tm) for FrameMaker(r)
*** IXGEN 7-10 for FRAMEMAKER 10/11 IS HERE! ***
franks at fsatools.com 
TOLL FREE Voice (USA and Canada):  800-567-6421
USA Voice: 360-892-3970  http://www.fsatools.com

Frame 11 Appearance

[Steve Rickaby]

I wasn't going to say it. I really wasn't. I read the postings, and didn't 
post. And didn't post. I tried so hard not to post. But I failed.

The ghastly thing that Joel posted was *so* reminiscent of circa-mid-1990s Mac 
apps, when they were constrained to fake fonts like 'New York', with klunky 
'effects'.

Has Windows Frame really moved on so little?

-- 
Steve [Happily on Frame 7 for Mac for as long as I can be]

Frame 11 Appearance

[Sharon Burton]

I have spent time with anyone on the TCS team I could find, complaining
about the UI for older eyes. It's a perfectly suitable UI for 25 year old
eyes and a perfectly wretched UI for older eyes. The low contrast tiny icons
are horrible and make my head hurt after an hour or so. Stronger contrast
with color would be the best. Maybe slightly larger icons, since we are
there. 



And remember that Tech Comm is typically a second career, meaning by
definition we are going to have more older eyes than we might. So, this is
the wrong UI for the user base. They really need to listen to the users on
this. 



Stop asking the 25 year old developers if they like the UI. Ask the USERS,
most of whom are not 25 years old.



And then don't get me started on the UI for Acrobat. 



The UI for Photoshop probably works for that user base. But it's a mistake
to assume all Adobe products have that user base. Because we aren't. But
they are taking that UI and making it the default UI for all products. It's
the wrong UI for people not doing intense color work with 25 year old eyes.





sharon



Sharon Burton

951-369-8590

www.sharonburton.com

Twitter: sharonburton

Author of 8 Steps to Amazing Webinars, 
available on Amazon and bn.com



From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Tori Muir
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 11:18 AM
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: Frame 11 Appearance



Preach it, sister! #1 thing our team HATE about Acrobat X: the Next/Previous
comment buttons for PDF edits were taken away. Why, Adobe, why?!  It took
considerable effort to convince our clients to shift from an all-Word
workflow to a Frame + PDF markup workflow, then Adobe go and make that
workflow substantially less efficient.  In a document with hundreds of
comments, scrolling through them via the side scrollbar is a giant PITA:
hard to control and prone to missing individual comments. No exaggeration,
between this missing feature and the jumping around mentioned below, Acrobat
X adds 20% to the time needed to work through a round of edits.  But the #2
thing that is disliked is the PlaySkool-size gray-on-gray-on-gray UI
elements now afflicting all Adobe apps. Color is a great way to easily
distinguish between tiny icons, especially for those of us with eyeballs
that have passed the half-century mark. And the chunky, clunky font is
neither attractive nor easy to read.  Loath though I am to praise anything
emanating from Redmond, Word's interface is at present a lot better to work
with. 




Tori Muir
tmuir at spot-on-creative.com | 650.430.8674
www.spot-on-creative.com


On 2/20/13 10:41 AM, Karen Robbins wrote: 

Me too! I truly dislike the dark, drab, low-contrasty appearance of Frame
and all the Adobe apps. Whatever happened to clarity, readability, contrast,
and the ability to size UI text for improved accessibility? Even the best
settings aren't good enough--it goes from really low contrast and poor
readability to barely-tolerable contrast and still poor readability. 

Another bad interface is recent Acrobat (Pro). UI elements are oversized,
clunky, and take up far too much screen real estate! I hate having to click,
click, click all over the place to reveal and hide stuff, and have the
document jump around, resize, etc. while doing so. As bad on Mac as on PC,
unfortunately. 

(And don't get me started about Dreamweaver) 

--Karen 
___ 


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Frame 11 Appearance

[Stuart Rogers]

On 20/02/2013 3:12 PM, Frank Stearns wrote:
> Framers -
>
> Glad this topic has come up.

...
> Adobe does monitor this list, so perhaps seeing common expressions about
> the same issues adds weight. Now, that doesn't mean a "pile on;" I
> think/hope they've gotten the message.
>

Thanks very much for providing Adobe with your input, Frank.  We can 
only hope and pray that whoever you spoke with has enough influence to 
actually cause a change.  It is certain that so far, Adobe has decidedly 
NOT gotten the message.  If they had, they would have fixed the UI 
before releasing FM 11.  People on this list have been complaining 
vociferously ever since the Stalin-inspired interface showed up two 
releases ago, but it has only gotten worse.

I am copying Neeraj Mishra, who recently posted to this list as "Account 
Development Manager for the print and publishing software" of Adobe. 
Are you listening, Neeraj??!!

Thanks, 

-- 
Stuart Rogers
Technical Communicator
Phoenix Geophysics Limited
3781 Victoria Park Avenue, Unit 3
Toronto, ON, Canada  M1W 3K5
+1 (416) 491-7340 x 325

http://www.phoenix-geophysics.com

Frame 11 Appearance

[Syed Zaeem Hosain (syed.hos...@aeris.net)]

For me, the so-called "new and improved" UI in FM 11 is why I generally still 
use FM 8 for some of my older documents, and only start FM 11 when I have the 
need for features in it.

The look and feel of the recent versions of FM are the worst (some good 
features, but mostly bad) since I began using FrameMaker back in 1988.

I beta-tested FM 3 and 5 a long time ago, and have not been involved in any 
more since then. So, Frank, I am also glad you are raising your concerns during 
these more recent betas - I hope you are heard by _somebody_ in authority at 
Adobe to make a decision to fix this someday.

Z

-Original Message-
From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Stuart Rogers
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 12:58 PM
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Cc: nmishra at adobe.com
Subject: Re: Frame 11 Appearance

On 20/02/2013 3:12 PM, Frank Stearns wrote:
> Framers -
>
> Glad this topic has come up.

...
> Adobe does monitor this list, so perhaps seeing common expressions about the 
> same issues adds weight. Now, that doesn't mean a "pile on;" I think/hope 
> they've gotten the message.

Thanks very much for providing Adobe with your input, Frank.  We can only hope 
and pray that whoever you spoke with has enough influence to actually cause a 
change.  It is certain that so far, Adobe has decidedly NOT gotten the message. 
 If they had, they would have fixed the UI before releasing FM 11.  People on 
this list have been complaining vociferously ever since the Stalin-inspired 
interface showed up two releases ago, but it has only gotten worse.

I am copying Neeraj Mishra, who recently posted to this list as "Account 
Development Manager for the print and publishing software" of Adobe. 
Are you listening, Neeraj??!!

Thanks, 

--
Stuart Rogers
Technical Communicator
Phoenix Geophysics Limited
3781 Victoria Park Avenue, Unit 3
Toronto, ON, Canada  M1W 3K5
+1 (416) 491-7340 x 325