Re: InDesign and FrameMaker Text Entry Comparison (WAS: FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4)

[Paul Findon]

Hi Peter,

 This is a good start, but, wait, there's more to it. While the power
 click brings an InDesign master-page text frame to the body page,
 where it works both like and differently from FM, you'll soon fill it
 to overflowing, and then...

 * You can only type to the bottom of the first text frame; additional
 typing is overset, as typographers call it, indicated by a red +
 in the lower-right text-frame border, if the Screen Mode is Normal
 (not Preview), and the text frame is selected (use the black arrow
 tool, aka Selection tool.)

With InDesign CS2, my workaround for this is as follows:

1) Create a new doc with Master Text Frame selected.

2) Command-Shift-click (Ctrl+Shift+click) the frame on the first page.

3) Fill the first page with placeholder text, select it all, and copy.

4) Insert roughly how many pages you think you'll need (50, 100, 300,  
whatever).

5) Paste the placeholder text for as many pages as you inserted plus  
one. If you inserted 50 pages, paste 51 times.

6) With the Selection tool, click the red Overset icon on the first  
page.

7) Hold down the Shift key and click on the frame on page 2.

The text frames on all of the pages will link together and fill with  
placeholder text, which can then be deleted ready for some real text.

Paul
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InDesign and FrameMaker Text Entry Comparison (WAS: FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4)

[Paul Findon]

Hi Peter,

> This is a good start, but, wait, there's more to it. While the "power
> click" brings an InDesign master-page text frame to the body page,
> where it works both like and differently from FM, you'll soon fill it
> to overflowing, and then...
>
> * You can only type to the bottom of the first text frame; additional
> typing is "overset," as typographers call it, indicated by a red "+"
> in the lower-right text-frame border, if the Screen Mode is Normal
> (not Preview), and the text frame is selected (use the black arrow
> tool, aka Selection tool.)

With InDesign CS2, my workaround for this is as follows:

1) Create a new doc with Master Text Frame selected.

2) Command-Shift-click (Ctrl+Shift+click) the frame on the first page.

3) Fill the first page with placeholder text, select it all, and copy.

4) Insert roughly how many pages you think you'll need (50, 100, 300,  
whatever).

5) Paste the placeholder text for as many pages as you inserted plus  
one. If you inserted 50 pages, paste 51 times.

6) With the Selection tool, click the red Overset icon on the first  
page.

7) Hold down the Shift key and click on the frame on page 2.

The text frames on all of the pages will link together and fill with  
placeholder text, which can then be deleted ready for some real text.

Paul

InDesign and FrameMaker Text Entry Comparison (WAS: FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4)

[Peter Gold]

This is really a new topic.

 On 23 Sep 2008, at 21:05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Every time I try the demo of InDesign I can't get past the part where
 I make a page and look for where the text entry starts. As in, where
 is the cursor for text?

and

 On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 9:38 AM, Paul Findon [EMAIL PROTECTED] responded:


 On the New Document dialog box, select Master Text Frame, then click
 OK. When the new document appears, select the Text tool, Command-
 Shift-click (Ctrl+Shift+click) the frame, and start typing.


This is a good start, but, wait, there's more to it. While the power
click brings an InDesign master-page text frame to the body page,
where it works both like and differently from FM, you'll soon fill it
to overflowing, and then...

* You can only type to the bottom of the first text frame; additional
typing is overset, as typographers call it, indicated by a red +
in the lower-right text-frame border, if the Screen Mode is Normal
(not Preview), and the text frame is selected (use the black arrow
tool, aka Selection tool.)

* In FM, it's called overflow, indicated by a horizontal black line
at the bottom of the frame, if View  Borders is enabled. Because FM
documents typically are designed with auto-connect properties that
cause filled main text frames (like Flow A) to create new text frames
on new pages, it's uncommon to overflow main text flow frames
unintentionally. Main text frames on disconnected FM pages, or those
drawn on any body pages with the text frame tool, do overflow, rather
than connecting automatically to new frames on new pages. You can
connect disconnected text frames manually, using Format  Customize
Layout  Connect Text Frames, to thread text flows across frames and
pages. This is similar to the method of flowing stories across frames
and pages in most layout programs.

* In InDesign earlier than CS4, to add content across pages by typing,
you'd need to manually add pages and connect (thread) the text
frames manually.

* You can work in the Story Editor window in all InDesign versions,
instead of a layout window, and enter text without concern about
getting stuck when a text frame becomes overset. The Story Editor
indicates where overset begins, but it doesn't stop you from adding
new content.

* In CS4, there's a new feature, Auto Text Reflow, that makes ID work
as you're expecting, based on your experience in FrameMaker, or other
non-layout-centric DTP tools and word-processors.

* ID and FM can do many of the same things, but they often work
differently, as in this example. If you're giving ID a good workout
and get stuck, these InDesign-specific resources will be helpful:

* The Adobe User-to-User InDesign Macintosh and Windows forums (often
the postings aren't platform-specific, so you need to read both to see
all questions and answers), and the Lassosoft InDesign list. Adobe.com
offers a lot of video tutorials and other resources on all the Adobe
products.

* Don't overlook the Help

* Visit the third-party InDesign book descriptions at Amazon.com. Two
very popular dedicated InDesign titles are Adobe InDesign CS3 Visual
Quick Start, by Sandee Cohen, and Real World InDesign CS3, by Olav
Kvern and David Blatner.

* These ID-specific resources don't address FM-to-ID issues, so if you
find that applying the FrameMaker side of your brain InDesign causes
headaches, post your questions here.

HTH

Regards,

Peter
__
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices
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Re: FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[quills]

I'm sorry to report that after doing the procedure you listed below, 
I still couldn't enter text without drawing a text box within the 
margins. This is exactly why it isn't more than a page layout 
program. It fails to provide me with a default page that can be used 
to write upon without having to define the text frame.

It follows the paste-up page paradigm exactly. Which says to me that 
this program is a paste-up program not a replacement for FrameMaker. 
It is a killer when placed against Quark Xpress, which behaves in the 
same manner. And even with all the plug-ins for Xpress, it isn't a 
serious contender to replace FrameMaker. Neither is InDesign.

Scott


At 3:38 PM +0100 9/25/08, Paul Findon wrote:
On 23 Sep 2008, at 21:05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Every time I try the demo of InDesign I can't get past the part where
  I make a page and look for where the text entry starts. As in, where
  is the cursor for text?

On the New Document dialog box, select Master Text Frame, then click 
OK. When the new document appears, select the Text tool, Command-
Shift-click (Ctrl+Shift+click) the frame, and start typing.

Paul
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FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[Paul Findon]

On 23 Sep 2008, at 21:05, quills at airmail.net wrote:

> Every time I try the demo of InDesign I can't get past the part where
> I make a page and look for where the text entry starts. As in, where
> is the cursor for text?

On the New Document dialog box, select Master Text Frame, then click  
OK. When the new document appears, select the Text tool, Command- 
Shift-click (Ctrl+Shift+click) the frame, and start typing.

Paul

InDesign and FrameMaker Text Entry Comparison (WAS: FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4)

[Peter Gold]

This is really a new topic.

>> On 23 Sep 2008, at 21:05, quills at airmail.net wrote:
>
>> Every time I try the demo of InDesign I can't get past the part where
>> I make a page and look for where the text entry starts. As in, where
>> is the cursor for text?

and

> On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 9:38 AM, Paul Findon  
> responded:

>
> On the New Document dialog box, select Master Text Frame, then click
> OK. When the new document appears, select the Text tool, Command-
> Shift-click (Ctrl+Shift+click) the frame, and start typing.


This is a good start, but, wait, there's more to it. While the "power
click" brings an InDesign master-page text frame to the body page,
where it works both like and differently from FM, you'll soon fill it
to overflowing, and then...

* You can only type to the bottom of the first text frame; additional
typing is "overset," as typographers call it, indicated by a red "+"
in the lower-right text-frame border, if the Screen Mode is Normal
(not Preview), and the text frame is selected (use the black arrow
tool, aka Selection tool.)

* In FM, it's called "overflow," indicated by a horizontal black line
at the bottom of the frame, if View > Borders is enabled. Because FM
documents typically are designed with auto-connect properties that
cause filled main text frames (like Flow A) to create new text frames
on new pages, it's uncommon to overflow main text flow frames
unintentionally. Main text frames on disconnected FM pages, or those
drawn on any body pages with the text frame tool, do overflow, rather
than connecting automatically to new frames on new pages. You can
connect disconnected text frames manually, using Format > Customize
Layout > Connect Text Frames, to thread text flows across frames and
pages. This is similar to the method of flowing stories across frames
and pages in most layout programs.

* In InDesign earlier than CS4, to add content across pages by typing,
you'd need to manually add pages and connect ("thread") the text
frames manually.

* You can work in the Story Editor window in all InDesign versions,
instead of a layout window, and enter text without concern about
getting stuck when a text frame becomes overset. The Story Editor
indicates where overset begins, but it doesn't stop you from adding
new content.

* In CS4, there's a new feature, Auto Text Reflow, that makes ID work
as you're expecting, based on your experience in FrameMaker, or other
non-layout-centric DTP tools and word-processors.

* ID and FM can do many of the same things, but they often work
differently, as in this example. If you're giving ID a good workout
and get stuck, these InDesign-specific resources will be helpful:

* The Adobe User-to-User InDesign Macintosh and Windows forums (often
the postings aren't platform-specific, so you need to read both to see
all questions and answers), and the Lassosoft InDesign list. Adobe.com
offers a lot of video tutorials and other resources on all the Adobe
products.

* Don't overlook the Help

* Visit the third-party InDesign book descriptions at Amazon.com. Two
very popular dedicated InDesign titles are "Adobe InDesign CS3 Visual
Quick Start," by Sandee Cohen, and "Real World InDesign CS3," by Olav
Kvern and David Blatner.

* These ID-specific resources don't address FM-to-ID issues, so if you
find that applying the FrameMaker side of your brain InDesign causes
headaches, post your questions here.

HTH

Regards,

Peter
__
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices

FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[qui...@airmail.net]

I'm sorry to report that after doing the procedure you listed below, 
I still couldn't enter text without drawing a text box within the 
margins. This is exactly why it isn't more than a page layout 
program. It fails to provide me with a default page that can be used 
to write upon without having to define the text frame.

It follows the paste-up page paradigm exactly. Which says to me that 
this program is a paste-up program not a replacement for FrameMaker. 
It is a killer when placed against Quark Xpress, which behaves in the 
same manner. And even with all the plug-ins for Xpress, it isn't a 
serious contender to replace FrameMaker. Neither is InDesign.

Scott


At 3:38 PM +0100 9/25/08, Paul Findon wrote:
>On 23 Sep 2008, at 21:05, quills at airmail.net wrote:
>
>>  Every time I try the demo of InDesign I can't get past the part where
>>  I make a page and look for where the text entry starts. As in, where
>>  is the cursor for text?
>
>On the New Document dialog box, select Master Text Frame, then click 
>OK. When the new document appears, select the Text tool, Command-
>Shift-click (Ctrl+Shift+click) the frame, and start typing.
>
>Paul

FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[Paul Findon]

Hi Sarah,

Not sure how strong it will be, but ID CS4 certainly appears to offer  
the tools that will allow some unstructured FM users to make the  
switch. Incidentally, it looks like Apple may have finally switched  
to InDesign for its user guides, which until now have been made with  
Mac FM6. The iPhone and iPod touch user guides both appear to have  
been made with InDesign CS3.

Another new ID feature relevant to FM users is Smart Text Reflow. ID  
can now automatically add or delete pages as text expands or shrinks.

FWIW:


Alas, one FM feature that's still missing (perhaps for ID CS5) is the  
ability to control whether paragraphs stay in column or across all  
columns at the paragraph level. A colleague recently user ID to make  
a manual with a layout that uses this FM feature heavily. She said it  
seemed to take twice as long as it did with FM, manually breaking and  
linking text frames on every page, and just when she thought the job  
was finished, a series of edits meant that many of her carefully  
positioned text frames had to be manually adjusted again and again.

Paul

On 23 Sep 2008, at 20:22, Sarah O'Keefe wrote:

> Hi framers,
>
> I just posted about this on my blog and am interested in your  
> thoughts:
>
> http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest/2008/09/indesign-cs4- 
> hannibal.html
>
> Regards,
>
> Sarah
> -- 
> ## 
> ##
> Sarah O'Keefe  Scriptorium Publishing Services,  
> Inc.
> okeefe at scriptorium.comwww.scriptorium.com
> Blog: http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as pfindon at infopage.net.
>
> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
>
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>
> Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[Sarah O'Keefe]

Hi framers,

I just posted about this on my blog and am interested in your thoughts:

http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest/2008/09/indesign-cs4-hannibal.html

Regards,

Sarah
-- 

Sarah O'Keefe  Scriptorium Publishing Services, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  www.scriptorium.com
Blog: http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest
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Re: FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[quills]

Sarah,

Every time I try the demo of InDesign I can't get past the part where 
I make a page and look for where the text entry starts. As in, where 
is the cursor for text?

It still feels like a page layout program, it still acts like a page 
layout program, it still wants you to obsess over page layout rather 
than content creation. As far as I've been able to see, the real 
difference in the two programs is that the paradigm for the layout 
and tools is based upon page layout and graphics programs rather than 
text creation. While it may be true that I would be able to function 
in that environment, the corresponding argument that the tools 
require a lot of minutiae font fiddling and placement fiddling make 
me feel like I'd be wasting more time.

Whenever I go into that program I feel like I've opened up Quark Express.

Scott


At 3:22 PM -0400 9/23/08, Sarah O'Keefe wrote:
Hi framers,

I just posted about this on my blog and am interested in your thoughts:

http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest/2008/09/indesign-cs4-hannibal.html

Regards,

Sarah
--

Sarah O'Keefe  Scriptorium Publishing Services, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] www.scriptorium.com
Blog: http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest
___
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Re: FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[Paul Findon]

Hi Sarah,

Not sure how strong it will be, but ID CS4 certainly appears to offer  
the tools that will allow some unstructured FM users to make the  
switch. Incidentally, it looks like Apple may have finally switched  
to InDesign for its user guides, which until now have been made with  
Mac FM6. The iPhone and iPod touch user guides both appear to have  
been made with InDesign CS3.

Another new ID feature relevant to FM users is Smart Text Reflow. ID  
can now automatically add or delete pages as text expands or shrinks.

FWIW:
http://indesignsecrets.com/whats-new-in-indesign-cs4.php

Alas, one FM feature that's still missing (perhaps for ID CS5) is the  
ability to control whether paragraphs stay in column or across all  
columns at the paragraph level. A colleague recently user ID to make  
a manual with a layout that uses this FM feature heavily. She said it  
seemed to take twice as long as it did with FM, manually breaking and  
linking text frames on every page, and just when she thought the job  
was finished, a series of edits meant that many of her carefully  
positioned text frames had to be manually adjusted again and again.

Paul

On 23 Sep 2008, at 20:22, Sarah O'Keefe wrote:

 Hi framers,

 I just posted about this on my blog and am interested in your  
 thoughts:

 http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest/2008/09/indesign-cs4- 
 hannibal.html

 Regards,

 Sarah
 -- 
 ## 
 ##
 Sarah O'Keefe  Scriptorium Publishing Services,  
 Inc.
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]www.scriptorium.com
 Blog: http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest
 ___


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 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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 %40infopage.net

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Re: FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[quills]

Sarah,

As a final thought, I'll add this. Any tool that won't automatically 
add pages to the text flow when I come to the end of a page is an 
automatic no-go. If I have to add text boxes to the page in order to 
enter text, it's a no-go.

Even Adobe compares it against Xpress, and NOT FrameMaker. The bells 
and whistles still don't make it a useable tool for long complex 
documents.

If I want to do a magazine layout, or a brochure, then InDesign is at 
the top of my list. But I can't see using it for anything else.

Scott

At 3:22 PM -0400 9/23/08, Sarah O'Keefe wrote:
Hi framers,

I just posted about this on my blog and am interested in your thoughts:

http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest/2008/09/indesign-cs4-hannibal.html

Regards,

Sarah
--

Sarah O'Keefe  Scriptorium Publishing Services, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] www.scriptorium.com
Blog: http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest
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RE: FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[John Sgammato]

I think it is a good view of what's happening. 
For a long time I have expected FM and INDD to come together, until only
one hybrid remains with the InDesign name, or some other name that is
not FrameMaker. I am not emotional about it, as long as my workflow is
not completely upended. 
I am a lone writer and I manage a lot of docs with no backup. I cannot
afford a long learning curve. I use INDD for a few things, so I am more
than familiar with it, but I prefer FrameMaker. 

john 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sarah O'Keefe
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 3:22 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

Hi framers,

I just posted about this on my blog and am interested in your thoughts:

http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest/2008/09/indesign-cs4-hannibal.html

Regards,

Sarah
--

Sarah O'Keefe  Scriptorium Publishing Services, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  www.scriptorium.com
Blog: http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest
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Re: FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[Peter Gold]

On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 5:24 PM,  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Sarah,

 As a final thought, I'll add this. Any tool that won't automatically
 add pages to the text flow when I come to the end of a page is an
 automatic no-go. If I have to add text boxes to the page in order to
 enter text, it's a no-go.

Here's the deal:

Smart Text Reflow is one of the smaller new features in ID CS4. It's
a preference you need to set, and it's got some options. It adds pages
as you type, and deletes empty ones when you delete content from them,
which isn't often a designer's need.

ID has always had auto-flow for placed content (like File  Import 
File in FM). It creates pages as it needs them. You'll need to read
the short passage in Help, when ID CS4 is released.

HTH

Regards,

Peter

Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices
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Re: FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[Peter Gold]

Hi, Sarah: (I also posted on your blog)

...UNTIL NOW..., as the late movie trailer guy might say, I've been
under Adobe's non-disclosure agreement for ID CS4 pre-release testers.

...BUT, IN A WORLD... where disclosure can now be thrown to the
winds, I'll add a few comments.

ID's been sneaking up on FM's long technical-document authoring tool
set for a few releases. ID CS3 added system- and user-defined
variables, running headers, table styles (named table formats), cell
styles, named object styles, and nested styles - the ability to
specify a pattern that applies named character styles to matching
content within paragraphs - and it improved numbered lists a HUGE
amount.

ID CS4 is closing in with new additions that matter to technical
authors: cross-references, conditional text, smart text reflow
(real-time adding new pages as needed, and deleting them when empty),
along with boosting the already-powerful nested paragraph feature to
include, selecting by a GREP pattern as you noted, and also by line
number within the paragraph, so the nth line will get the character
style you specify, no matter how it wraps or flows, and the ability to
repeat (or loop) applying the sequence of styles (sort of a macro
ability.)

FrameMaker users who don't use CS3-level Adobe Illustrator or
Photoshop will need time to adjust to Adobe's corporate user
interface, and learning new ways to perform familiar tasks.

Plus, just because something's on the package label, trust - but
verify. Don't assume.

Here are a few FrameMaker features that you may miss:

 * Run-in paragraphs
 * Side headings and side-heading area
 * Paragraphs that flow with text and also straddle multiple columns,
and multiple columns AND side heads
 * Table sorting
 * No Track Changes
 * No logical conditional text expressions - AND and NOT were added in FM 8
 * No size matters inter-paragraph spacing - FM uses the larger of
space below and space above for paragraph spacing. ID, like most other
applications, adds the space below and space above, which makes it
more complicated to set up paragraph formats that will space as you
need, regardless of who-follows-what.
 * Frame above /below paragraphs can contain graphics, text, or a mix.
ID's rules above/below paragraph are great, but they aren't
containers.

Here are a few FrameMaker features in ID CS4 that are a little more
complicated to do:
 * To jump to a cross-reference source from within FrameMaker, instead
of Ctrl+Alt+Click, you click in the Cross-Reference panel
 * Index markers support multiple-level entries, but can't create
multiple entries in one marker like FM's : technique
 * Without run-in paragraphs, you need to strategize to create TOC
entries from a partial heading

There's a very good third-party conversion tool that converts MIF
files to InDesign (dtptools.com). However, migrating FrameMaker
content to InDesign depends on what FrameMaker are in them for which
InDesign has no direct counterpart, whether you use a commercial tool
or do it manually. It's something like converting Microsoft Word files
to FrameMaker. There's work to be done.

The conversion tool's nearly-clonelike reproduction of FM pages in ID
comes from its minute adjustments of paragraph formats, meaning many
formats are overridden uniquely. Most of the tweaks are paragraph
settings - space between, run-in, side heading, straddle headings,
frame above/below, table-cell properties.

One of the greatest ID features from early on is the INFINITE UNDO
UNDO UNDO! It doesn't clear its history when you perform certain
actions. You can experiment nearly forever, and roll back to square
one. ID saves every action you perform - an instant autosave; after a
crash, it can restore almost every last one.

If you're considering ID as a replacement for FM, test-drive ID in
parallel with an FM project or two, to see if your wishes are rewarded
or exceeded, and if your needs are served. During my testing, I
compared the long-document features so much that I decided to write a
book on the core issues for FrameMaker users moving to Indesign.

FM Mac diehards - don't forget that ID works on Mac OS X, both Intel
and PowerPC G4/G5 chips. FM's stuck at 7.0 on Classic or OS 9 on Mac.

Regards,

Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices
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Re: Re: FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[quills]

It's still not ready for prime time. At least not for technical documentation.

It's still an Xpress style layout program for magazines and brochures, not long 
documents. The paradigm of it's tools and how you go about things are based 
upon the paste up board of a graphic designer. Don't tell me how great 
it is with it's add ons, its work flow isn't designed for what technical 
documentation requires. 

Scott

On Tue 08/09/23 16:59 , Peter Gold  sent:
 Hi, Sarah: (I also posted on your blog)
 
 ...UNTIL NOW..., as the late movie trailer guy might say, I've been
 under Adobe's non-disclosure agreement for ID CS4 pre-release testers.
 
 ...BUT, IN A WORLD... where disclosure can now be thrown to the
 winds, I'll add a few comments.
 
 ID's been sneaking up on FM's long technical-document authoring tool
 set for a few releases. ID CS3 added system- and user-defined
 variables, running headers, table styles (named table formats), cell
 styles, named object styles, and nested styles - the ability to
 specify a pattern that applies named character styles to matching
 content within paragraphs - and it improved numbered lists a HUGE
 amount.
 
 ID CS4 is closing in with new additions that matter to technical
 authors: cross-references, conditional text, smart text reflow
 (real-time adding new pages as needed, and deleting them when empty),
 along with boosting the already-powerful nested paragraph feature to
 include, selecting by a GREP pattern as you noted, and also by line
 number within the paragraph, so the nth line will get the character
 style you specify, no matter how it wraps or flows, and the ability to
 repeat (or loop) applying the sequence of styles (sort of a macro
 ability.)
 
 FrameMaker users who don't use CS3-level Adobe Illustrator or
 Photoshop will need time to adjust to Adobe's corporate user
 interface, and learning new ways to perform familiar tasks.
 
 Plus, just because something's on the package label, trust - but
 verify. Don't assume.
 
 Here are a few FrameMaker features that you may miss:
 
 * Run-in paragraphs
 * Side headings and side-heading area
 * Paragraphs that flow with text and also straddle multiple columns,
 and multiple columns AND side heads
 * Table sorting
 * No Track Changes
 * No logical conditional text expressions - AND and NOT were added in FM
 8* No size matters inter-paragraph spacing - FM uses the larger of
 space below and space above for paragraph spacing. ID, like most other
 applications, adds the space below and space above, which makes it
 more complicated to set up paragraph formats that will space as you
 need, regardless of who-follows-what.
 * Frame above /below paragraphs can contain graphics, text, or a mix.
 ID's rules above/below paragraph are great, but they aren't
 containers.
 
 Here are a few FrameMaker features in ID CS4 that are a little more
 complicated to do:
 * To jump to a cross-reference source from within FrameMaker, instead
 of Ctrl+Alt+Click, you click in the Cross-Reference panel
 * Index markers support multiple-level entries, but can't create
 multiple entries in one marker like FM's : technique
 * Without run-in paragraphs, you need to strategize to create TOC
 entries from a partial heading
 
 There's a very good third-party conversion tool that converts MIF
 files to InDesign (dtptools.com). However, migrating FrameMaker
 content to InDesign depends on what FrameMaker are in them for which
 InDesign has no direct counterpart, whether you use a commercial tool
 or do it manually. It's something like converting Microsoft Word files
 to FrameMaker. There's work to be done.
 
 The conversion tool's nearly-clonelike reproduction of FM pages in ID
 comes from its minute adjustments of paragraph formats, meaning many
 formats are overridden uniquely. Most of the tweaks are paragraph
 settings - space between, run-in, side heading, straddle headings,
 frame above/below, table-cell properties.
 
 One of the greatest ID features from early on is the INFINITE UNDO
 UNDO UNDO! It doesn't clear its history when you perform certain
 actions. You can experiment nearly forever, and roll back to square
 one. ID saves every action you perform - an instant autosave; after a
 crash, it can restore almost every last one.
 
 If you're considering ID as a replacement for FM, test-drive ID in
 parallel with an FM project or two, to see if your wishes are rewarded
 or exceeded, and if your needs are served. During my testing, I
 compared the long-document features so much that I decided to write a
 book on the core issues for FrameMaker users moving to Indesign.
 
 FM Mac diehards - don't forget that ID works on Mac OS X, both Intel
 and PowerPC G4/G5 chips. FM's stuck at 7.0 on Classic or OS 9 on Mac.
 
 Regards,
 
 Peter Gold
 KnowHow ProServices
 ___
 
 
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FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[Sarah O'Keefe]

Hi framers,

I just posted about this on my blog and am interested in your thoughts:

http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest/2008/09/indesign-cs4-hannibal.html

Regards,

Sarah
-- 

Sarah O'Keefe  Scriptorium Publishing Services, Inc.
okeefe at scriptorium.com  www.scriptorium.com
Blog: http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest

FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[qui...@airmail.net]

Sarah,

Every time I try the demo of InDesign I can't get past the part where 
I make a page and look for where the text entry starts. As in, where 
is the cursor for text?

It still feels like a page layout program, it still acts like a page 
layout program, it still wants you to obsess over page layout rather 
than content creation. As far as I've been able to see, the real 
difference in the two programs is that the paradigm for the layout 
and tools is based upon page layout and graphics programs rather than 
text creation. While it may be true that I would be able to function 
in that environment, the corresponding argument that the tools 
require a lot of minutiae font fiddling and placement fiddling make 
me feel like I'd be wasting more time.

Whenever I go into that program I feel like I've opened up Quark Express.

Scott


At 3:22 PM -0400 9/23/08, Sarah O'Keefe wrote:
>Hi framers,
>
>I just posted about this on my blog and am interested in your thoughts:
>
>http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest/2008/09/indesign-cs4-hannibal.html
>
>Regards,
>
>Sarah
>--
>
>Sarah O'Keefe  Scriptorium Publishing Services, Inc.
>okeefe at scriptorium.com www.scriptorium.com
>Blog: http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest
>___

FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[John Sgammato]

I think it is a good view of what's happening. 
For a long time I have expected FM and INDD to come together, until only
one hybrid remains with the InDesign name, or some other name that is
not FrameMaker. I am not emotional about it, as long as my workflow is
not completely upended. 
I am a lone writer and I manage a lot of docs with no backup. I cannot
afford a long learning curve. I use INDD for a few things, so I am more
than familiar with it, but I prefer FrameMaker. 

john 

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Sarah O'Keefe
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 3:22 PM
To: framers at frameusers.com
Subject: FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

Hi framers,

I just posted about this on my blog and am interested in your thoughts:

http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest/2008/09/indesign-cs4-hannibal.html

Regards,

Sarah
--

Sarah O'Keefe  Scriptorium Publishing Services, Inc.
okeefe at scriptorium.com  www.scriptorium.com
Blog: http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest
___


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FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[qui...@airmail.net]

Sarah,

As a final thought, I'll add this. Any tool that won't automatically 
add pages to the text flow when I come to the end of a page is an 
automatic no-go. If I have to add text boxes to the page in order to 
enter text, it's a no-go.

Even Adobe compares it against Xpress, and NOT FrameMaker. The bells 
and whistles still don't make it a useable tool for long complex 
documents.

If I want to do a magazine layout, or a brochure, then InDesign is at 
the top of my list. But I can't see using it for anything else.

Scott

At 3:22 PM -0400 9/23/08, Sarah O'Keefe wrote:
>Hi framers,
>
>I just posted about this on my blog and am interested in your thoughts:
>
>http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest/2008/09/indesign-cs4-hannibal.html
>
>Regards,
>
>Sarah
>--
>
>Sarah O'Keefe  Scriptorium Publishing Services, Inc.
>okeefe at scriptorium.com www.scriptorium.com
>Blog: http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest

FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[Peter Gold]

On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 5:24 PM,   wrote:
> Sarah,
>
> As a final thought, I'll add this. Any tool that won't automatically
> add pages to the text flow when I come to the end of a page is an
> automatic no-go. If I have to add text boxes to the page in order to
> enter text, it's a no-go.

Here's the deal:

Smart Text Reflow is one of the "smaller" new features in ID CS4. It's
a preference you need to set, and it's got some options. It adds pages
as you type, and deletes empty ones when you delete content from them,
which isn't often a designer's need.

ID has always had auto-flow for "placed" content (like File > Import >
File in FM). It creates pages as it needs them. You'll need to read
the short passage in Help, when ID CS4 is released.

HTH

Regards,

Peter

Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices

FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[Peter Gold]

Hi, Sarah: (I also posted on your blog)

"...UNTIL NOW...," as the late movie trailer guy might say, I've been
under Adobe's non-disclosure agreement for ID CS4 pre-release testers.

"...BUT, IN A WORLD..." where disclosure can now be thrown to the
winds, I'll add a few comments.

ID's been sneaking up on FM's long technical-document authoring tool
set for a few releases. ID CS3 added system- and user-defined
variables, running headers, table styles (named table formats), cell
styles, named object styles, and nested styles - the ability to
specify a pattern that applies named character styles to matching
content within paragraphs - and it improved numbered lists a HUGE
amount.

ID CS4 is closing in with new additions that matter to technical
authors: cross-references, conditional text, smart text reflow
(real-time adding new pages as needed, and deleting them when empty),
along with boosting the already-powerful nested paragraph feature to
include, selecting by a GREP pattern as you noted, and also by line
number within the paragraph, so the nth line will get the character
style you specify, no matter how it wraps or flows, and the ability to
repeat (or loop) applying the sequence of styles (sort of a macro
ability.)

FrameMaker users who don't use CS3-level Adobe Illustrator or
Photoshop will need time to adjust to Adobe's corporate user
interface, and learning new ways to perform familiar tasks.

Plus, just because something's on the package label, trust - but
verify. Don't assume.

Here are a few FrameMaker features that you may miss:

 * Run-in paragraphs
 * Side headings and side-heading area
 * Paragraphs that flow with text and also straddle multiple columns,
and multiple columns AND side heads
 * Table sorting
 * No Track Changes
 * No logical conditional text expressions - AND and NOT were added in FM 8
 * No "size matters" inter-paragraph spacing - FM uses the larger of
space below and space above for paragraph spacing. ID, like most other
applications, adds the space below and space above, which makes it
more complicated to set up paragraph formats that will space as you
need, regardless of who-follows-what.
 * Frame above /below paragraphs can contain graphics, text, or a mix.
ID's rules above/below paragraph are great, but they aren't
containers.

Here are a few FrameMaker features in ID CS4 that are a little more
complicated to do:
 * To jump to a cross-reference source from within FrameMaker, instead
of Ctrl+Alt+Click, you click in the Cross-Reference panel
 * Index markers support multiple-level entries, but can't create
multiple entries in one marker like FM's ":" technique
 * Without run-in paragraphs, you need to strategize to create TOC
entries from a partial heading

There's a very good third-party conversion tool that converts MIF
files to InDesign (dtptools.com). However, migrating FrameMaker
content to InDesign depends on what FrameMaker are in them for which
InDesign has no direct counterpart, whether you use a commercial tool
or do it manually. It's something like converting Microsoft Word files
to FrameMaker. There's work to be done.

The conversion tool's nearly-clonelike reproduction of FM pages in ID
comes from its minute adjustments of paragraph formats, meaning many
formats are overridden uniquely. Most of the tweaks are paragraph
settings - space between, run-in, side heading, straddle headings,
frame above/below, table-cell properties.

One of the greatest ID features from early on is the INFINITE UNDO
UNDO UNDO! It doesn't clear its history when you perform certain
actions. You can experiment nearly forever, and roll back to "square
one." ID saves every action you perform - an instant autosave; after a
crash, it can restore almost every last one.

If you're considering ID as a replacement for FM, test-drive ID in
parallel with an FM project or two, to see if your wishes are rewarded
or exceeded, and if your needs are served. During my testing, I
compared the long-document features so much that I decided to write a
book on the core issues for FrameMaker users moving to Indesign.

FM Mac diehards - don't forget that ID works on Mac OS X, both Intel
and PowerPC G4/G5 chips. FM's stuck at 7.0 on Classic or OS 9 on Mac.

Regards,

Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices

FrameMaker vs. InDesign, round CS4

[qui...@airmail.net]

It's still not ready for prime time. At least not for technical documentation.

It's still an Xpress style layout program for magazines and brochures, not long 
documents. The paradigm of it's tools and how you go about things are based 
upon the paste up board of a graphic designer. Don't tell me how great 
it is with it's add ons, its work flow isn't designed for what technical 
documentation requires. 

Scott

On Tue 08/09/23 16:59 , "Peter Gold"  sent:
> Hi, Sarah: (I also posted on your blog)
> 
> "...UNTIL NOW...," as the late movie trailer guy might say, I've been
> under Adobe's non-disclosure agreement for ID CS4 pre-release testers.
> 
> "...BUT, IN A WORLD..." where disclosure can now be thrown to the
> winds, I'll add a few comments.
> 
> ID's been sneaking up on FM's long technical-document authoring tool
> set for a few releases. ID CS3 added system- and user-defined
> variables, running headers, table styles (named table formats), cell
> styles, named object styles, and nested styles - the ability to
> specify a pattern that applies named character styles to matching
> content within paragraphs - and it improved numbered lists a HUGE
> amount.
> 
> ID CS4 is closing in with new additions that matter to technical
> authors: cross-references, conditional text, smart text reflow
> (real-time adding new pages as needed, and deleting them when empty),
> along with boosting the already-powerful nested paragraph feature to
> include, selecting by a GREP pattern as you noted, and also by line
> number within the paragraph, so the nth line will get the character
> style you specify, no matter how it wraps or flows, and the ability to
> repeat (or loop) applying the sequence of styles (sort of a macro
> ability.)
> 
> FrameMaker users who don't use CS3-level Adobe Illustrator or
> Photoshop will need time to adjust to Adobe's corporate user
> interface, and learning new ways to perform familiar tasks.
> 
> Plus, just because something's on the package label, trust - but
> verify. Don't assume.
> 
> Here are a few FrameMaker features that you may miss:
> 
> * Run-in paragraphs
> * Side headings and side-heading area
> * Paragraphs that flow with text and also straddle multiple columns,
> and multiple columns AND side heads
> * Table sorting
> * No Track Changes
> * No logical conditional text expressions - AND and NOT were added in FM
> 8* No "size matters" inter-paragraph spacing - FM uses the larger of
> space below and space above for paragraph spacing. ID, like most other
> applications, adds the space below and space above, which makes it
> more complicated to set up paragraph formats that will space as you
> need, regardless of who-follows-what.
> * Frame above /below paragraphs can contain graphics, text, or a mix.
> ID's rules above/below paragraph are great, but they aren't
> containers.
> 
> Here are a few FrameMaker features in ID CS4 that are a little more
> complicated to do:
> * To jump to a cross-reference source from within FrameMaker, instead
> of Ctrl+Alt+Click, you click in the Cross-Reference panel
> * Index markers support multiple-level entries, but can't create
> multiple entries in one marker like FM's ":" technique
> * Without run-in paragraphs, you need to strategize to create TOC
> entries from a partial heading
> 
> There's a very good third-party conversion tool that converts MIF
> files to InDesign (dtptools.com). However, migrating FrameMaker
> content to InDesign depends on what FrameMaker are in them for which
> InDesign has no direct counterpart, whether you use a commercial tool
> or do it manually. It's something like converting Microsoft Word files
> to FrameMaker. There's work to be done.
> 
> The conversion tool's nearly-clonelike reproduction of FM pages in ID
> comes from its minute adjustments of paragraph formats, meaning many
> formats are overridden uniquely. Most of the tweaks are paragraph
> settings - space between, run-in, side heading, straddle headings,
> frame above/below, table-cell properties.
> 
> One of the greatest ID features from early on is the INFINITE UNDO
> UNDO UNDO! It doesn't clear its history when you perform certain
> actions. You can experiment nearly forever, and roll back to "square
> one." ID saves every action you perform - an instant autosave; after a
> crash, it can restore almost every last one.
> 
> If you're considering ID as a replacement for FM, test-drive ID in
> parallel with an FM project or two, to see if your wishes are rewarded
> or exceeded, and if your needs are served. During my testing, I
> compared the long-document features so much that I decided to write a
> book on the core issues for FrameMaker users moving to Indesign.
> 
> FM Mac diehards - don't forget that ID works on Mac OS X, both Intel
> and PowerPC G4/G5 chips. FM's stuck at 7.0 on Classic or OS 9 on Mac.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Peter Gold
> KnowHow ProServices
> ___
> 
> 
> You are currently subscribed to